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    ...That means living with death all the time. Oh, you people don't know anything about this. Not fifty years later or frightened of death. I won't go into the question of death because that's too complicated. We have no time this morning. But death means not only biological, physical ending of the organism, but also to all the memories, the...

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    ...as violence is a fact of life, as hatred is a fact of life. And we must if we are at all reasonable, sane, we must look at this question of death in similar manner, not accept it, not just say it is inevitable or try to find out what lies beyond death, but to observe the nature of dying.

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    And also we ought to talk over together the question of death, which is not a morbid question, which is not a useless question. Like love, like pain, sorrow, fear, death is part of our life. You may postpone it, you may say, I have ten years more to live but at the end of it there is death waiting. Again, all humanity fears death or they...

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    ...about it but actually you have never realised what death is - obviously not. So when you are looking at this question of death don't bring in your second-hand knowledge - because we are all of us are second-hand human beings, or third-hand, or umpteenth-hand. So can we look at this problem as though we did not know a thing about it? Then we can...

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    ...in these problems, how deeply you want to go into them. Though some of you may have casual interest, or some of you may be serious, we ought to consider this question of death, whether it be for the young or for the old, death by accident, death by disease, death by old age, senility. Probably we are already senile when we are educated. No smiles!...

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    ...to die. Not what is after death, that's rather a silly question. What is after death is what you are now. That's not a very satisfactory answer. And this question of death, we avoid it scrupulously. And when we have to face it we have a thousand explanations - whether there is life after death, or you are by some mysterious process resurrected and...

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    ...The negation of life. That's right. So if we are enquiring into this question of death, fear must be completely non-existent in us. Then I can proceed. Then I can find out what death means. We have touched a little bit on reincarnation, the belief that is maintained throughout the East which has no reality in daily life. It is like going to church...

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    So only the truth of that beauty will be found when you have completely dropped everything that is mechanical. Have we time to go into this question of death now? We have talked for fifty minutes. Shall we go into it now?

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    And, there is the question of death. It is strange, is it not, that we have divided life into living, the daily living, love something apart and death something totally apart. All three something unrelated. Now, what is death? You know, this is really a very important question because what is it that dies? What is it that is so frightened of...

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    And so we should together go into this question of death. What is it that dies? And what is it that lives? Both of them go together. When you use the word 'death', dying, it means that you have also lived. The two cannot be separated. That is a basic truth, that it cannot be separated, as you cannot possibly separate relationship as though by...

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    ...is time to stop. So we will have to discuss the question of death and the immense significance of death, and the strength of death, which is as strong as love. And we will also have to talk over together, on Thursday morning, the day after tomorrow morning, what is religion, and what is meditation. The speaker puts death, religion and meditation...

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    Is this the occasion to discuss that question of death? Oh, lord! You know it is one of the most complex problems that man has faced from the time he began, this question of death, survival after death, and this utter sense of loneliness. To answer that question really very, very, very deeply, we must spend a lot of time on it, not just two...

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    And if we have time - we have some more time - we ought to talk over together the question of death. It's not a morbid question, it's not an old man putting a question. But whether we are young or old, whether we'll die through an accident, through disease, this is a human problem. The problem that each one of us has to face. We are all going to...

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    Now what is the relationship between two human beings when there is total freedom from attachment? Because we said attachment is one of the causes of great suffering, pain. What is it? Do you want my answer - or are you facing, looking at the actuality? The actuality means what is actually taking place and therefore you are observing with care,...

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    ...it, not push it away or run away, just face it. And then see what happens when you face a relationship which actually is attachment - let's use that word for the moment to cover a whole field - face that attachment, without the interference of thought, without any motive, without any direction. Then see what takes place. We are not willing to do...

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    ...on, sir, please. Or if there is an attachment as an individual for another individual, for an object, for an idea, and there is the ending of that attachment - is there any recollection, remembrance, recording of that attachment? Because I think it is important to find this out, for it may lead us to some other quality of a mind that is whole, not...

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    So we have said desire, greed, attachment, is part of our life, daily struggling, conflict, occasionally happy, life. And now, let's examine together, and I mean together, what is fear, why we are so frightened. And this problem of fear has not been solved at all though we have lived a million years, we are still carrying on in the same old...

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    So can you be free of this attachment so that there is a responsibility which is not a duty? Then what is love when there is no attachment? You understand my question? Look: if you are attached to a nationality, you worship isolation of nationality, which is a form of glorified tribalism, you are attached to it. What does that do? It breaks it up,...

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    ...putting all that aside. Not say well, I will find out gradually when I am dead and buried, or just before what attachment Now, today, to find out while you are sitting there listening to yourself, to be free completely from all attachment - from your wife, from your husband, from your girl - attachment - do you understand? Can you? Not resist it,...

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    ...Hold on to them, or let them go? Or if you find yourself attached to somebody, to some ideals, to some belief, if you are at all aware and familiar with your attachment, how far one has let them go, knowing all attachment leads to a great deal of sorrow, and pain, and all the rest of it, which we went into.

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    ...it? Possession, domination, being possessed, and liking to be possessed, belonging to somebody. And attachment, the pain in attachment, the fear, the pleasing another and the other liking to be pleased and so on, the whole area of our relationship. Are we aware of it?...

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    Attachment to the country, attachment to an idea, attachment to a conclusion, attachment to a belief, attachment to a principle, are all the same, they still belong to the stream. So I am saying, what shall a man do when he is no longer selfish? How shall he act politically, how shall he act in relationship with each other, man and woman, how...

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    Then there is also the attachment to persons. That is, in our relationship there is a great deal of suffering. That is, one may be free from this conditioning of fear and so on, and the other may not be, and hence there is a tension, and that tension arises not only out of attachment - the word 'attachment' means holding on, not only physically...

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    Now is your mind free from attachment? You understand? - attachment to an ideal, to a person, to an experience however great that experience is - attached. Now just listen. Is attachment in the present, or in the past? I am attached to you, is that an active present, or is it a past anchorage in you, and a remembrance?

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    ...- the Arab, we are at war with each other. Right? That is fairly simple, obviously, observable. But if you go much deeper inwardly, I may cling to a person for various reasons, and the very attachment to that brings a great deal of conflict, fear, hate. Right? And without analysing can I observe the fact? We will go into what we mean by...

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    And there is a continuity in our life through attachment. Right? And to voluntarily say, 'I will end attachment' - have you ever done it? So we are asking, and you are asking too, do we voluntarily ever give up anything, not for a reward, for itself? And you don't see the beauty of ending something completely. So ending has great significance....

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    David Bohm: Are you saying that attachment we see from its consequences, and therefore we infer the attachment - but you are asking that we might see the attachment unfold from the bud.

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    K: Need I translate that? Somebody do it, please. All right sir, I'll do it for you. Don't make it difficult, be simple about it. The fear is the impermanency of ourselves, and the attachment - I'm translating generally - the attachment then becomes the cause of fear. Now just a minute, sir. You see how my investigation is going on.

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    A human being, who has lived in illusion, and becomes aware of the illusion, either examines it carefully what that illusion is, how it is born and why one clings to that illusion, and when one negates that illusion - which is the gods, the temples, the whole circus that goes on in the name of religion is an illusion, totally unreal - when you negate the false, in that negation of the false there is truth.

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    ...no meaning whatsoever. So one asks, if I may, with courtesy, why you are here. I think you should know why you are here. Whether you are adding one more illusion to the already illusory life that one leads, do you understand? Whether you are making what the speaker is saying into an illusion, into a make-belief, into a theory and being...

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    ...No, I'm not. I'm pointing out, sir - I may be mistaken but I'm just pointing out, that thought has created such illusion, and so many deceptions it has brought about, and it may deceive itself by saying, 'Yes, I've seen truth.' Therefore I must be very clear, there must be clarity that there is no deception whatsoever. And I'm saying that...

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    ...he's playing with us. Sorry. After three days you're sticking to it. We have explained very carefully. I'm not being rude, or irritated or angry, we explained very carefully, that's also part of our illusion. And you say, why do you consider that illusion, because - it's still thought - says, 'There must be something.' The whole movement of...

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    ...that the fact and that which is not. Right? That which When attachment is there, to cultivate detachment is a movement towards illusion, and in that illusion you become cold, because that is illusion, it isn't reality, you become cold, hard, bitter, isolated, without any sense of affection. That is what we are all doing. We are all living in...

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    ...possible, it actually can take place. This is not a hope, an idea, a concept, an illusion, an illusion that is satisfying, but to discover for oneself without any persuasion, without any reward, without any punishment, without any direction, which means without any motive - you are following all this? - without any motive, to discover whether it...

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    ...have been brought up in this religion, Christian religion, with their symbols, with their saviours, with their Virgin Marys, with their rituals, etc., etc., etc., is that not an illusion? I'm asking, I don't Would you say anything thought has created, psychologically, is illusion? Right sir? Are we living in that illusion? Now, can you remain with...

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    K: That must be done. Emptying the past which is anger, jealousy, beliefs, dogmas, attachments, all that is the content. If any part of that exists it will inevitably lead to illusion. Right? So we said that. The brain or the mind must be totally free of all illusion - illusion brought by desire, by hope, by wanting security and all that.

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    K: Quite, quite. So I'm asking something else, which is, do I realise the illusion I've been living in, where I have separated loneliness from me, and therefore 'me' can act upon 'it'. Right? Do I see that?

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    K: I understand. Look, madame, is it an illusion when you have got a husband and a wife and each person seeks security in the other? Actually face it. Do you call that illusion? This is what we are doing! I wish you would go step by step. All right.

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    ...right, a continuity. Have you that in your relationship? If you are honest, obviously not. But the mind is seeking this. If it can't find it, it invents an illusion and hopes in that illusion to have security. Right? You understand? So the mind, thought, which is part of the mind and brain, thought is seeking this constant movement of security....

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    K: But once you realise psychological accumulation as knowledge is an illusion and destructive and causes infinite pain and misery, when you see, it's finished.

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    ...Simply the fact that there is. We have been fairly logical all along, reasonable and fairly sane. So we have not been caught in any illusion so far. Right? And can we keep that same kind of watchfulness in which there is no illusion, to find out - not find out - for that which is beyond emptiness to come down to earth? (Laughs) You understand what...

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    There is a danger in this too because you know people have said when you go to the guru he gives - you know - be silent and you will receive. That's an illusion, you know. Well, I have said enough.

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    ...an hour to what is being said, which is what you are saying to yourself, not what another is saying. Right? Are you listening so completely, you see the illusion actually and see the absurdity of living in an illusion and finish with it? Which means can we stay with the fact and have no relationship to non-fact? Because our minds, as we said, are...

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    And we are asking: I am this, my consciousness is this: fear, sorrow, pain, pleasure and all the varieties of fear, all the nationalistic, tribalistic responses, prejudices - black, white, purple, pink and all the rest of it, we are all that - subtle, violent, cruel, bitter, cynical, and we are always trying to change that into something else, like violence, trying to change violence into non-violence, which is to become.

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    ...of living, one has to observe what actually is taking place outside and inside, in us, inside and outside. And look at it, not try to change it, not try to transform it, not try to bring about different adjustment, see actually what it is. I look at a mountain, I can't change it. Even with a bulldozer I can't change it. But we want to change what...

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    K: The desire to change, is that not also measurable. Of course it is. So you have to find out what you mean by change. Change from the known to the unknown? Or change from one corner of the field to another corner of the field. You understand? So please be good enough to find out for yourself why you are discontent, and whether you go to the ends...

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    That is, to be aware of 'what is' in oneself. Right? One may be conscious that one is envious, or violent, and to change, to bring about a change in that violence you need time. Is that so? You are following this? Please, are you? Is there somebody to whom I can talk and who'll tell me they understand?

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    So we are concerned, if you are at all serious, whether your mind, which is so destructive, so corrupt, a mind that has created a world that is insane, a world that has become monstrous, where human beings, quiet, gentle, really affectionate human beings cannot possibly live, and to bring about a change in that, there must be a change in the inner world, and nobody wants to do that.

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    K: I explained at the beginning, sir, if you don't mind if I repeat it again, we said: change and transformation. Don't forget what we started out with. Change implies modified continuity.

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    David Bohm: Well, I thought that perhaps we could go - we raised several questions after these discussions. One was the nature of this ground that we discussed, whether we could come to it and whether it has any interest in human beings. And also we discussed the possibility that there could be a change in the physical behaviour of the brain.

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    K: Sir, do you mean to say the generals, the admirals, the politicians all over the world, are going to change by listening to you and me? Certainly not. What we are talking about is, if you are serious, if there is the real deep understanding that society must change, not according to any pattern, break away from the Judaism, the Christianity,...

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    ...The inner is the result of the outer. If you want to change society, which is corrupt, which is immoral, which is destructive, which is totally ugly as it is, one has to change the individual who's created this society, the human being - not the individual - the human being who has created this society. You understand this? But what are we doing?...

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    So change implies non-movement of thought. This is - you see. Right? Because thought says, 'I want that'. I have had that had sufficient, 'I must have that'. And so it is constantly moving from this to this to this to this. And that is what we call change, generally. And we are saying no, that is not change at all. Change implies when thought has...

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    ...of what has been, what is dead and put into different words and different circumstances. So it becomes very important, it seems to me, not only that we must bring about a change in the world outside us, but also a total revolution psychologically, inwardly. That seems to me the most urgent and necessary thing. That change will bring about...

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    So some of you have listened for many years and do we listen and therefore bring about a change, or you have got used to the words and just carry on? So we are asking: what will make man, a human being who has lived for so many million years, carrying on the same old pattern, inherited the same instincts, self preservation, fear, security, sense...

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    K: Of course. Therefore find out, sir. Look: one is going north and you realise going the same direction is no change at all. So you say change then means going quite the opposite, which is south. But if you keep on going south it will be the same thing.

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    ...biologically, psychologically, in every way, atom, cells, all that is me. And I am that. So I am humanity. That has to me tremendous meaning. And I am there and I say, is there any change at all possible? I thought change existed in climbing the hill and going to the source, but I find I am still there. I have never left it. I thought by going up...

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    K: After an hour and a half, have you caught the truth that change is non-movement in any direction? Right, sir? Even intellectually grasp? That means, change implies absolute observing 'what is'. You understand? Observing one's greed, one's loneliness, despair, depression, watching it without any desire to change this or that, just watching. Sir,...

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    ...I am at a loss. She has deprived me of my identity, driven me to my loneliness. And I hate all that. So I am jealous of her. Which means, jealousy implies hate, anger, violence, beating - god, don't you know all this? And I can't let her go and she can't let me go, and we live like that. Jealousy, distrust, feeling lonely deeply inside but trying...

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    ...word is the means of expression of a thought. So what is thought? You see what we are doing? There is jealousy, we are trying to look at jealousy without the word. Is that possible? Because jealousy, the moment that reaction arises it is identified with a word, 'jealousy'. That identification takes place when thought identifies that feeling with a...

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    K: Scott, would you consider for a moment, observing that which is happening now, just to observe. Can you do it? Can I observe my jealousy, can one observe jealousy as it is taking place, not say it's right or wrong, or rationalise it, why it should not be, but just to, as it arises, as a flower blooms, just to watch it.

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    ...be a wife, husband, a boy or a girl or an idea, or a picture, or to a memory, to an experience, the consequences are that it breeds fear of losing. Right? And out of that fear there is jealousy. You are following all this? How jealous we are. Of those in power who are - you follow? All the jealousy. From jealousy there is hatred. Right? Of course,...

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    So, I am going to investigate into 'what is', which is jealousy, which is a common factor of all humanity. A feeling which I have named as jealousy arises, because - oh, I won't give you the reasons, it's so obvious. Don't you know jealousy? So I don't have to give the reasons. Now, a feeling arises and there is immediate naming of it, immediate...

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    ...In possession I feel satisfied, I feel safe. And also it is good to be possessed, that also gives satisfaction. And that jealousy, that envy, that hatred, can you look at it without any movement of thought and remain with it? You understand what I am saying? Jealousy is a reaction, a reaction which has been named through memory as jealousy, and I...

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    K: I am saying that. I have a feeling, then I recognize it as jealousy. How do I recognize it as jealousy? Because I have had it before. I associate the present feeling with a past feeling which I have called jealousy. So it is still within the field of thought.

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    K: We know jealousy is related to love, and without jealousy what is love? Now which of these do you think is most important so that we can discuss it, talk it over?

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    K: Sir, just let's enquire into this particular thing. We say, by exercising thought we learn more about jealousy and therefore are free from it. To put it quickly.

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    ...do something about it? One can intellectually understand all this, verbally, which you call intellectually. What value has it when I carry on with jealousy for the rest of my life and that jealousy creates wounds in me psychologically? I am hurt inwardly and I carry on with that hurt, with that jealousy, with that distrust - is this the way to...

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    ...your statement, otherwise they can't hear it. If I misstate it please correct it. The questioner says, I must use my mind. I see, I am aware, or another is aware - I am aware of another's jealousy or my own jealousy. By understanding it, which is exploring, enquiring, I become tolerant, and therefore understand more of jealousy not only in myself...

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    ...at least this evening, not run away, not seeking comfort, not seeking some soothing words but actually face sorrow? Have you ever faced anything directly? Have you faced your jealousy, faced it? Say, 'I am jealous' - not 'I should not, why am I jealous', or try to find a rationalisation of it, which are all escapes from it. But to face jealousy;...

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    K: I am coming to that. Half a minute. I am coming to that. The actual second of arising. Can you observe jealousy the actual second of arising?

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    ...my friend or my girl or my wife does something which I disapprove or goes away from me. I become furious, angry, jealous. And I fight with jealousy, I rationalise it, I say, 'How stupid of me, let her go, what does it matter?' But yet the thing is boiling. You understand? Now I say to myself, the fact is I have never loved her. You understand?...

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    3rd QUESTION: Jealousy and mistrust are poisoning my relationship with someone. Is there any solution other than isolating myself from every other human being except him?

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    ...the deep sound of that aeroplane? - we see things fragmentarily, don't we, don't we? We see things in fragments - business, family, community, individual, my opinion and your opinion, my god, your god, your social act - we see everything in fragments. Isn't that a fact? Right? Are you aware that you see things in fragments? If the seeing is...

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    K: Sir, look, look: you want to create a new generation, a generation that will not think in fragments. Right? Like our society thinks in fragments, you want to create a generation that does not think in fragments, that looks at the whole of life, not just their job, their little family, their little sex, their little children, but the whole of...

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    ...Not better. No, not better. Look sir. Look, first let me explain again once. There are many fragments - right? - of which I am. One of the fragments says, it brings about confusion when I identify myself with one fragment therefore I'll identify myself with the many other fragments. Right? And it makes a tremendous effort in identifying itself...

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    Then the question arises, if you are aware: who is it that is aware? You understand my point? Is it one of the fragments that is aware of the other fragments and so assumes, that fragment which is aware of other fragments, assumes the authority of direction? You follow? You understand what I am saying? Is this clear?

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    K: No, no, no. Oh lord. No, just look at it slowly, take it slowly. I have got my make-up is divided - right? - fragmented: the body, the heart, the mind. I have the image I have been hurt and I love - you follow? - I am broken up into great many fragments. Right, sir? Now, go slowly, please. Now, who is the observer among those fragments?

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    ...don't know, a dozen things, broken up. And among these fragments one fragment, which thinks it is superior, which assumes the ideal, the authority, the perfect prototype, the supreme self, the inner self, that assumes a position of authority and then dictates what it shall do, what other fragments shall do. That is what we are doing, if you...

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    K: Yes, if you identify yourself - the questioner says no identification - if you identify yourself with any one of the fragments obviously it's the same process, which is the process of being identified with the one and disregarding the rest, is a form of neurosis, contradiction. Can you - no, put the next question sir. Can you identify yourself...

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    K: That's right. You feel you are incomplete therefore you try to identify yourself with many other fragments. Now who is the entity that is trying to identify itself with the many? It is one of the fragments, therefore it is a trick - you follow? And we are doing this all the time. I must identify myself.

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    And when there is such an observer, what he observers is something different, or something which he has to conquer, or change and so on; whereas if the observer is the observed - I think this is really a radical thing to understand, really the most important thing to understand if we are going to discuss anything seriously: that in us there is this division, this contradiction, the observer and the many fragments which he observes.

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    K: Look at yourself, sir, don't put it into words yet. Look at it. In you you are fragmented, aren't you? Now, which of the fragments is the observer?

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    ...Yes. So there is one of the fragments - that is actually 'what is' - one of the fragments of this broken up energy, knowing, being aware - no, I won't use the word aware or knowing - one of these fragments, restlessly seeking security - that is what we are all doing. And that restlessness and this constant search, constant enquiry, constant...

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    ...yourself, that you are a fragmented human being? And therefore, being fragmented, contradictory, living in constant conflict, and knowing this conflict, one fragment of this many, many fragments, takes charge, becomes the authority, the censor, and his observation must inevitably be contradictory. I hope you're following all this. If one fragment,...

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    ...or reaction which brings fear? Sir, please, this is rather a difficult question, to find this out, that is, can the mind, can it ever be in a state - again that word 'state' implies static, I don't mean that - can it ever be in a quality, in a state, where it has no movement reaching out or going - you follow? - completely whole in...

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    K: Don't expand it. Can you look at that fact that you have a belief? Whatever it is: god, the State is the most important, or whatever it is.

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    So you would rather live, continue in the state in which you are - conditioned, creating mischief, not facing danger, and ready to be killed.

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    K: You may identify with the State and so on and so on, but you are still good old me there is operating. So is it thought doesn't see its own limit? And know, realise, it cannot change itself? Realise it.

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    K: Ah, no, no, no. Something else takes place. You see, that's another, that means you are now come to a state, according to you, sir, that you don't act at all. There is no action.

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    K: Being in a state in which there is no peace, we want to experience a state which is absolute, permanent, eternal peace. Right?

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    K: What is the state, if I understood it rightly and please correct me sir if I have not, what is the state of the mind and the heart when the observer and the observed are one? That's right, sir?

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    K: I see what you are trying to say. Can the mind be aware of a state in which there is no conflict? Is that what you are trying to say?

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    ...which will help you to go beyond yourself. All the religions have tried to do this with their monasteries. Right? The communist society, which worships the State, said 'Go beyond yourself, the State is more important'. But the 'me' operates all the time - in the monk, in the commissar, in the politburo, in the Mao - everywhere. So we say, create...

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    K: All right, you cannot recollect, if you want to put it, you cannot remember, recollect what was the state of the mind or feeling when it was hurt. Is that explained somewhat?

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    K: That state, leave don't bring in consciousness and all that because then we'll go off into something else. So at the moment of anger there is not me who is angry, there is only that state. Then a second or a few seconds later the division takes place: I have been angry.

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    K: Being in a state in which there is no peace, we want to experience a state which is absolute, permanent, eternal peace. Right?

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    ...if you will, we can enquire into this question: what is a religious mind? What is the state of the mind which can see what truth is? You may say, 'There is no such thing as truth, there is no such thing as God, God is dead, we must make the best of this world and get on with it. Why ask such questions when there is so much confusion, so much...

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    K: Like communists, they say, the state is responsible. The state - worship the state, the state is the god and you are responsible to the state. Which means they have conceived what the state should be, formulated ideationally and according to that you act. That is not a responsible action. That's irresponsible action. Whereas action means the...

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    K: Now just a minute, let's hold onto that. What is the state of the mind that perceives or that realises the individuality is an illusion. Go on, sir, answer. Yep, (laughs) I've got it.

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    ...there he begins to work and discovers slowly the enormity of that funnel on the other side. It is immensely wide, much wider than the river, and he doesn't know quite how to move from there. He has read and people have said that there is an enormity beyond this limited self-interest. He doesn't know anything about it; he is rather a sceptical man,...

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    I'll go on, like a river that goes on - you are sitting on the banks of the river, looking at the river, but you don't become the river ever, because you never take part of the river, you never join the beauty of a movement that has no beginning and no end.

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    K: Yes, what you think about yourself, what you have gathered about yourself. Like a river that is flowing, you have to follow it. That leads somewhere else. Let's get back.

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    ...next year if we are here - we will be here! Now at the end of all this, where are we? Have we together taken the journey, together all the way, flowing together, passing, like a river that passes obstacles, goes round it, have we moved that way? Or are we still part of the bank and looking at the river? You understand what I am saying? Are we...

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    K: Thou art that. I am that. What does that mean? One can say, 'I am the river'. That river that has got tremendous volume behind it of water, moving, restless, pushing on and on and on and on and on, through many countries and so on. I can say, 'I am that river'. That would be equally valid as, 'I am Brahman'.

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    ...as a whole, or do you see with one fragment examining the other fragments? This requires – you follow sir? What do you do? Do you see it partially or wholly, as a total movement, like a river that’s moving? You can carve out, dig a ditch on the bank and call that the river, it isn’t, it’s a whole movement, the river. Right. Then what is...

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    ...is seeing? How do I look at a tree, or a mountain, the hills, the moon, the flowing waters, how do I look at it? There is not only visual observation but also the mind has an image about the tree, the cloud, the mountain, the river. That river has a name, that river makes a sound which is pleasant, or unpleasant. I am always observing, being aware...

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    We are saying it is possible. And I will go into it. Don't say it is impossible and then block yourself. Right? We are going into it. Don't say it is not possible, or it is possible. We are moving together, like a river going round, going, moving, flowing and any difficulties that come we will go round it, but keep going.

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    K: My river is the river of everybody. Don't introduce sorrow - I have been that is sorrow, that is pain, that is anxiety, that is loneliness, despair, hope, all that.

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    K: Thou art that. I am that. What does that mean? One can say, 'I am the river'. That river that has got tremendous volume behind it of water, moving, restless, pushing on and on and on and on and on, through many countries and so on. I can say, 'I am that river'. That would be equally valid as, 'I am Brahman'.

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    ...If that is clear - and we are not dealing sorrow separately as though it was something different from fear. So we are looking, searching out the nature of sorrow and the ending of sorrow because where there is sorrow, there is no love. Sorrow expresses itself in so many ways - the sorrow of loneliness, the sorrow of seeing this vast country:...

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    ...when one is aware of this with great attention sorrow has totally a different meaning. There is nothing to learn from sorrow. There is only the ending of sorrow. And when there is an ending of sorrow then there is love. How can I love another, love, have the quality of that love, when my whole life is based on memories, on that picture which I...

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    So a mind that is serious, the mind that has observed the world and itself - and this observation takes place only in relationship between you and another - and seeing the total disorder of our lives, of our misery, and the endless sorrow in which we are caught; and seeing the sorrow and the ending of sorrow, and the ending of sorrow is the beginning of wisdom.

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    So the understanding of sorrow is the ending of sorrow. Right? Sir, this requires a great deal of investigation into sorrow. Probably you have never shed tears. You have an explanation for tears. Right? Karma, some cause or other, but you have never actually suffered, felt the intense pain of it, because we are always seeking comfort, escape from...

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    ...is to live with that sorrow, pain completely without a single movement of thought. That is the ending of sorrow, which means the ending of knowledge which you have acquired, which has been slowly built up, so knowledge, the ending of knowledge, the ending of sorrow. I wonder if you understand. And is knowledge love? The picture, the image, the...

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    The speaker says there is an end to sorrow, a total end to sorrow, which doesn't mean he does not care, indifferent, callous, but with the ending of sorrow there is the beginning of love. And you naturally ask the speaker: how? How is sorrow to end? When you say 'how' you want a system, a method, a process. Right? That is why you ask, 'Tell me how...

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    ...the camera? We have a lot of ground to cover this evening so we won't go back and repeat what we have said during the last three talks. Yesterday evening we were talking about sorrow and the ending of sorrow. With the ending of sorrow there is passion. And very few of us really understand or go deeply into the question of sorrow. Is it possible to...

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    ...end. He said, no, I have never asked it. And K says, now ask it. How you ask it is important: whether you are asking it casually, or asking it as an escape, or are you seeking comfort with the ending of sorrow, or are you putting the question free from reward and punishment? Ending sorrow, not saying to yourself, if I end this, I will get that. If...

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    ...when there is sorrow there is no love. When you are suffering, concerned with your own suffering, how can there be love? So one must ask this question, however difficult it is to find - not the answer, but the ending of sorrow.

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    And the other day we talked about the ending of sorrow, and with that ending, compassion. And I think we ought to talk about various other things too, this morning. I hope you are all comfortable - it is pretty hot!

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    ...in India, they explain it very carefully, the past lives and karma and all the rest of it. But that doesn't solve the problem. You live in sorrow, and the question is: can sorrow end, is there an ending of sorrow? Not get used to it, not accept it, not carry the burden of sorrow in your heart, but to find out for yourself whether there is an...

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    ...from the thing observed, this division, there must be sorrow. That is, as long as there is no self-knowledge there must be sorrow. So the ending of sorrow comes about when there is total self-understanding. Don't make that into a formula. See how in sorrow there is such a great deal of self-pity: I have lost, I wish it were different, the...

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    ...and broken down, there must be sorrow. There is no avoiding it or escaping it, it is there. Therefore it behoves us, if we are at all serious, that the ending of sorrow is far more important than the pursuit of pleasure, which the world is committed to. This vast entertainment industry which is spreading all over the world, sports, entertainment,...

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    ...that man has lived with and perhaps cultivated it, because he doesn't know how to resolve it. Now we are going to find out, share together this question and find out if there is an end to sorrow, because without the ending of sorrow there is no love. When there is love will you suffer for another? When there is love will there be sorrow? You might...

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    ...passion? How do you have sustained movement of energy that is not dissipated by thought, by any kind of activity? And I think that only comes when you understand sorrow and the ending of sorrow, then compassion and love and all that. That intelligence is that energy which has no depression, none of the human...

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    And as this is the last talk, I would like to point out, if I may, that we are not selling any goods, that we are not doing any idealistic propaganda; we are not offering any scheme, any method, but pointing out, if you are serious and if you are willing, that there is a different kind of life to be lived daily: without conflict, without this confusion and misery which man has accepted as his way of life.

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    Please, do give Are you getting tired? You can be, I don't care. It is a very serious thing we are talking about. And we rely on thought to alter the course of our life. And when thought alters the way of our life, that way of life will be fragmentary, it will not be whole, complete.

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    K: Intellectually, the gentleman says, I see my way of life is hypocritical, my way of life is distorted, confused - intellectually. Now what do you mean by that word 'intellectually'? Verbally?

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    K: The way you are living - let's put it that way, it's simpler. The way of your life, you're holding on. And you say, 'In that way of life, fear is involved'. So you're holding onto fear! Right?

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    K: Yes, sir. If you do it, that is a way of life. If you listen to your wife. 'Oh', you'll say, 'I know her, it doesn't matter'. But if you listen to her she will tell you lots. That's why life, sir, is a way of listening, perceiving, learning. And when you know those three arts, then you live a life of complete awareness.

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    ...what is one to do, which must be correct, accurate, true. And that can only be found out for ourselves if we are challenging our actions, our way of life, which is jobs, occupation, relationship with each other, and the utter lack of clarity in thought, the sloppiness of our thinking. And to live a totally different kind of life, not merely based...

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    ...and so bringing about a great deal of misery to mankind. And we are asking ourselves why the human brain has so deteriorated: depending on others, becoming immoral, corrupt, trying to find out a way of living from others, if one is unfortunately labelled as a guru, a way of life.

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    ...I am going to die, and I am frightened, as most people are frightened. Right? So, what is going to happen? Will I be reborn? Will my consciousness accept this way of life, and perhaps next life it will have a better chance. Right? So, is my consciousness, which I have said 'mine', is that consciousness mine at all? No, please don't agree or...

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    ...vitality, an extraordinary sense of clarity. You are then only dealing with facts, not with ideas. But as most of us are imprisoned in ideas and we have accepted that as a way of life, it is very difficult to break away from that. But to have an insight into it, then it is finished....

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    ...at least thinking together. But if you object, find out. Don't merely object. Obstinate questioning is essential for man's survival: questioning not only the speaker, but also questioning your beliefs, your way of life, why you think this way, why you live this way. Persistent obstinate questioning which means doubting. Doubt is of great...

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    Surely, religion is a way of life: a way of life that is whole, that is not fragmentary, in which there is no conflict whatsoever, which means there is no contradiction in oneself, contradiction of opposing desires, opposing ideas and demands, a total non-fragmentary life, a whole life, a total mind, a whole mind which doesn't think one thing and do another, doesn't say one thing and act contrary to what has been said.

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    I think if we could take the question: is there a possibility, a way of life which doesn't demand any kind of change. Could we take that? Would that be worthwhile? Isn't the question itself rather absurd? Because one wants to live, one wants to find a way of life which doesn't demand effort, change, transformation. Which means one must be totally...

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    K: Before you awaken to fear do you question the way of your life? Do I question my way of life? I talk everywhere, do I question it, or do I say 'Well, part of my routine, I have done it for fifty, sixty years, and I'll carry on.' Or do I say 'My god, what am I doing? Why am I doing?'

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    ...No, sir I am not. I am not trying to speculate anything. I am saying first, if there is a way - to answer your question - if there is a way of living, a way of life which doesn't demand transformation. So I am examining the way of our life - present life, now: the way we live, the way we think, we way we feel, all our life, a constant struggle -...

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    ...know what it means to have great joy. And fear seems to be one of the most common things in life, and strangely we have accepted it as a way of life, as we have accepted violence in all its various forms as a way of life, we have also accepted and got used to being psychologically as well as physically afraid.

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    ...we have given tremendous importance to knowledge. All the universities, all the scientific knowledge, the knowledge that one has acquired through experience for oneself becomes all important. But knowledge is never complete, never, whether it is scientific knowledge, or the knowledge of a carpenter, the knowledge of a housewife, or the so-called...

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    ...this clear? Can we go on from that? So thought is always limited. Right? I have accumulated - one has accumulated, say for example, scientific knowledge. That knowledge is being added to all the time: more and more and more they are discovering. And so scientific knowledge is never complete. Right? So thought, whatever it does, is limited. Perhaps...

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    K: Yes. How can that communicate with you so that you, with your scientific knowledge, with your brain capacity and so on, so on, so on, how can you grasp it?

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    ...is stored in the brain and that memory is thought. Memory is knowledge and that knowledge can never be complete, whether scientific knowledge or knowledge about anything including yourself, it can never be complete, there is always something more to discover, to understand, to find out. So knowledge is the past and knowledge also in the future...

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    ...That's right. Have you understood the question? There is all the scientific knowledge, all the knowledge which human beings have gathered through millennia - right? - which is the past. All knowledge is the past. I can add to it, more and more, but it is always in the past. Now, when that knowledge is used in our relationship with each other,...

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    ...origin of thinking is experience. Experience gives knowledge, whether it is scientific knowledge or the knowledge about your wife or husband. Experience, knowledge stored in the brain as memory and response of memory is thinking. Right? This is very simple. It's a fact. You cannot think if there is no memory, if there is no knowledge, if there is...

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    ...says or have you investigated for yourself that knowledge, all knowledge - right? - not a particular subject, all knowledge, the scientific knowledge, the technological knowledge, the knowledge of books, the knowledge of your experience, all knowledge is limited.

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    ...is necessary. Technological, surgical, engineering, scientific knowledge and so on is necessary. But the knowledge that one has psychologically accumulated through millennia as human beings, is that necessary at all? You understand my question? You understand my question? Bien. I must have knowledge to go to the room in which I happen to live. I...

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    ...poor innocent people are caught in it because the professionals say you will be rewarded for your good behaviour. That means more money, more cars, better houses, which means destroy the earth because you are going to be rewarded. So what do you mean by action? Please, this is very important for you to find out, this is part of meditation, this is...

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    Great teachers have been on earth: the Buddha, Jesus. Do you think there will be less conflict, more understanding when you also depart, or is the world moving in an unalterable direction?

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    K: Galileo, you know, Galileo says the earth goes round the sun, and the church said that is a heresy, we will burn you. He said, all right, all right, the earth doesn't go round the sun, but I believe in it, I know it. And before that they believed the earth stood still and the sun went round it.

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    2nd Question: Great teachers have been on earth: Buddha, Jesus. Do you think there will be less conflict, more understanding when you depart, or is the world moving in an unalterable direction?

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    ...happening round us. Not as British, as French, as Irish, or American, or as Hindus, but as human beings living on this earth, which is our earth, not the British, not the French, not the American, nor the Russian, it's our earth on which we are supposed to live happily, securely, which is being utterly denied to all of us. After all these twenty,...

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    K: Yes, for one job there are thousand people. So I am questioning, when man is seeking security whether there is such a thing at all. May be temporarily you are secure if you have a bank account, if you have good great piece of the earth, perhaps you are secure. But even then there is always encroachment, there's taxes, there's (laughs)

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    K: Wait, wait, wait. You know what it means? Do you want them to take drugs? Do you want them to have sex at the age of fourteen, thirteen? Do you want them to become wandering people all over the earth - there are twenty thousand so-called hippies in India. I am asking what is your responsibility?

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    ...solve that problem - because we have discussed this with politicians, with economists, with others, they can't go beyond their specialisation. We are human beings to live on this earth, all of us, happily. It is our earth, not the communist's world, earth, nobody possesses this earth, it is ours. And we are destroying it because we are divided...

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    And there are those who kill, kill for sport, kill for amusement, kill for profit - the whole meat industry. Right? Destroy the earth, to dump poisonous gas, you know all that is happening in this country, pollute the air, the waters, and pollute each other. This is what we are doing to the earth and to ourselves.

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    Long before Christianity they talked about peace on earth. Long before Christianity, in Hinduism, they worshipped trees, stones, animals, nature, lightning, the sun. There was never any sense of god before, because they considered the earth as the mother to be worshipped, to be conserved, preserved, spared, not destroyed as we are doing now.

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    ...isolation going: 'My country first.' They have no global relationship, they have no idea of that. Right? That we can only exist on this earth when we treat the earth as ours, all of ours, not British, French, German and all the rest of it.

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    ...ourselves, not only through wars, through poisonous gases. We have had an example of it recently in this country. We are very deliberately destroying the earth, the earth which is so beautiful, so productive, that is nourishing us.

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    Mankind has lived on this earth perhaps for a million or 50,000 years. We have lived on this earth for many, many millennia. And during those periods of long time mankind has suffered pleasure, loneliness, despair, uncertainty, confusion, multiple choices, therefore multiple complexities; and there have been wars. Not only physical, bloody wars...

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    ...make one an Indian - paper. You understand? So is it possible to live without a single nationality? Without being identified with any country? Because it's our earth, not your earth and my earth. Is it possible to live without any identification without any religion? Think it out, sirs, don't just agree or disagree. Or identified with any group,...

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    K: I have worked in the garden, put my hands in the earth, planted trees, dug, all kinds of things and for me - you follow? - it is a great joy to work with the earth. How am I to show the student the necessity of doing it without compelling him? That is the problem. Right sir? I see the garden - it is necessary to work. Now how am I, without...

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    ...will not say it is, or it is not, I am going to find out. I am going to find out by carefully watching why images are made. I realise images are made when the mind is not giving its attention at the moment something is said. Right? At the moment of something that is said that gives pleasure, something that is said which brings about displeasure,...

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    K: Maybe we can pay attention every moment as far as our energy allows. You see, that is just an idea - I am not interested, please, sir.

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    K: Sir, look. I am not afraid at this moment what my brother might say to me. But when I meet the man he is going to say things that will frighten me. Right? Can't I see the actual fact of that now? No?

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    ...the immensity, the blue valley, the extraordinary light, and the blue sky against the snow-clad mountains. What happens to you at that moment when you look at that - the grandeur, the majesty of those mountains - what do you feel? Do you for the moment, or for a few minutes, exist at all? You understand my question? Please don't agree, look at it...

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    ...Listen. I look at myself, myself is constantly moving, it isn't static. Right? Have you noticed it? One moment it is peaceful, the next moment it is angry, the third moment it is pursuing some pleasure, it is constantly in action, movement. And I have learnt by looking at myself something about it. Right? That becomes an experience, that becomes...

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    So is it possible to observe myself each moment as though as it was fresh? Not having remembered my observation and let that remembrance operate. Do you see the difference? To let the remembrance operate, or observe from moment to moment, afresh each response, see what it does to you. Then that response becomes extraordinarily important because it...

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    Look, sir: you call me a fool, and to be attentive at that moment. At that moment, you understand? Attentive means give full attention with your mind, with your heart, with your body, with your eyes, with your ears, to be fully attentive at that moment when you call me an ass, because in that attention there is no recorder, there is no me who is...

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    K: Yes. Now wait a minute. There was that, I could feel it. There was the tension of that. But is it temporary, is it for the moment, for a second and it is gone? And then the whole business of remembering it, capturing it, inviting it...

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    K: Oh, no. Nobody is concerned about the school here for the moment, or the teachers. We are concerned about disorder in each of us.

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    K: Now just a minute. What takes place when I meet that spider or that man, or that woman? I am terrified at that moment. At that moment I am paralysed right through. Right, sir? Why am I paralysed? What has made me paralysed?

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    So, we must understand first how the mind, your mind, lives in habits of tradition and has never found out how to live from moment to moment, fresh, young, innocent, alive. And if we have time this evening, and I hope we shall, go into that. Because freedom is absolutely necessary, not only politically, not only from the tyranny of dictatorship...

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    K: No, no, no. I don't accept that. Why do you say that? The moment it comes into being it is already formed in that. It is already caught in knowledge.

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    K: No, don't make it into a problem. Just look at what I am saying. I want to look at that clock, I am watching it and other thoughts come in. The moment I call it distraction I have separated the whole process of thinking - right? You understand what I am saying?

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    ...at it, live with it, understand it completely? Which means, can it look at it without any sense of fear. The moment there is fear you have choice, the moment you have fear there is will, there is resistance, and there is a wastage of energy. The ending of energy as the 'me' is the incapacity to look at...

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    K: Then, lady, you have solved the problem. (Laughter) Have you done this ever, if you are honest? That is, I and my wife quarrel, at the moment of the quarrelling not to allow time to interfere. Which means you give all your attention at that moment to the quarrel. What happens? Oh, do it, sir, for god's sake, do it!

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    ...we ought to talk over together what is suffering. Why man, including woman, please don't be so particular if I mention man. It includes humanity, which is man and woman, not woman separate from her rights, and all the rest of that business. We are together. Why has man, woman, suffered for centuries: why are we suffering now? What is suffering?...

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    K: The gentleman asks, can there be real love between husband and wife or man and woman without the pleasure of sexuality and all the complications that arise in that relationship. And could we go into the question of what love is in relationship between man and woman. Right sir?

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    ...till five o'clock, spends most of the day in an office, either pleasant or unpleasant, a factory and so on, and then comes home. The wife, the woman, cooks the meal, looks after, if she has children, children, and so on. This is our daily routine. Right? Do you agree to that? Oh for god's sake. Yes? This is what is happening the world over. The...

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    So I now have moved altogether into a different dimension - you follow? Which is we are all standing on the same ground, man, woman, whether he is black, white, purple, whatever colour he is. Inwardly we are tortured, all that. That is important to understand, not the problems that it creates. Right? That's enough for this morning.

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    K: So then what place has love - loving a woman, a man, you understand? - not identifying - please - identifying with the sensations of sex with a woman, or with a man, and yet to love that person. You understand? When there is that love, that love is not the woman whom I love, it is global love. I wonder if you see.

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    ...religiously, politically, economically, racially and so on - there is tremendous division in this world. That's a fact. In this division man has sought - including woman, forgive me if I don't include the woman. When I say man, woman is included in it. Don't get annoyed or assert yourself when I don't mention the woman. It is all becoming so...

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    ...nature of pleasure and the principle of pleasure, then what is love? Is love jealousy, is love possessiveness, is love domination, attachment - you know what one does in life - the woman dominates the man or the man dominates the woman, you know all that business that goes on. The man does something because he wants to do it, pursues it. He is...

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    K: Yes, aren't they both the same? When a man or a woman comes to you and says, 'I love you,' because he's so tremendously - you follow? And you say, 'Yes, that's jolly nice, but tell me all about it.'

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    ...You can't. To have a child, a woman and a man is necessary. It may be a tube or anything, but a man is necessary. So, this idea, 'Leave us alone, we will do something by ourselves', is impossible. We are together in this. And I don't think you get that feeling. I don't think you have that feeling. To have that feeling implies that you sit down, if...

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    K: I am not loved. I am not loved by that woman or by that man. And I must be loved by that man, or by that woman. But that leads to another very complex question: what is love?

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    So wherever between two people (noise of train) - so whenever there is this division between man and woman, between God and earth, between 'what should be' and 'what is' - I wonder if you - I am asking Mr.X if he is following all this, not only verbally, intellectually, which is meaningless, but with his heart, with his being, with his vitality,...

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    We talked the other day about various forms of conflict; what is the cause of it; why does one throughout the beginning of mankind, two and a half million years ago or so, why man, including of course the woman, why have they lived in conflict and have never solved that problem at all? And throughout the ages, during this long period of evolution,...

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    ...saying why? Isn't it fairly obvious that each one - man, woman - each one is exploiting each other, each one using each other, trying to fulfil sexually, non-sexually in each other, and each one being ambitious in different directions, pulling away all the time from each other and meeting perhaps in bed and thinking we love each other. Now I say:...

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    K: I'm asking, no, I'm asking something. When a woman or a man comes up to you and says, 'I really love you.' And he means it, not just some kind of trick to catch you or something or other. When there is a statement made like that, with full meaning, 'I really love you,' - do you go through all this mental process?

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    K: Never. And therefore an innocent mind. Which has no picture of the woman or the man or the act. None of that imagination.

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    ...sorrow end? Your sorrow. Which means, if you end sorrow, out of that ending comes passion, not lust. Most human beings know what lust is. But lust is not passion. Passion comes into being when there is the ending of sorrow. And sorrow exists only when there is this enormous fear of death. That is the ultimate fear. Isn't it? Sir, look at it; for...

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    K: What do you call passion? What is passion to you? Passion to paint? Passion to be a first-class carpenter, first-class scientist? Not just pass some little examination that tells you are a scientist but to have passion behind it, vitality, energy, drive. Have you passion for anything? To be very well dressed (laughs) Passion to be the most...

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    K: Sometimes. Has it produced in you who have suffered - if you have suffered, I hope you haven't - if you have suffered has it produced passion?

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    ...is sorrow? The word 'sorrow' comes also with the word 'passion'. They are together, these two words - passion, not lust, not sexual demands but passion and suffering go together. When you suffer a great deal, in the sense you have lost somebody whom you have loved - quotes 'loved' - and suddenly find yourself utterly lonely, unrelated, isolated...

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    K: I don't think there is an answer to that question: what brings about passion. What brings about passion? Let's begin with that shall we? Let's begin with that. What brings about passion in one?

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    Because we have no passion. There is lust, there is sexual desire, urgency and all that but there is no flame, passion. We are all burnt out. Right? So that passion comes only when you remain completely with the fact and with sorrow. Right? Do it, not as a theory because you suffer, for God's sake do it. You suffer - wife, husband, oh, it doesn't...

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    ...Just a minute, sir, I am exploring that. It's not what I mean but what we together mean. That word 'passion', does it imply lust? Or there is a passion of a person who wants to make a tremendous lot of money. There is a passion or desire or the urge of wanting sexual release, or wanting to be somebody or other. We mean by passion, at least what...

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    ...personal and mechanical - has become extraordinarily vital in our life. Block it and you become violent, angry. And so love surely is not pleasure. And where there is love there is passion. Passion is something different from lust. You can lust after power, lust after more sensations, lust after your own fulfilment, pursue your own appetites. But...

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    K: All right, I have got it. Is there a passion which doesn't wither away after a while? Right. I'll answer all those questions presently.

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    So, that energy is what we call love, which is passionate; not merely physical passion - that's fairly easy, that's fairly common, that everybody knows, lust - but what we are talking about is the passion which has no cause and therefore no contradiction, no motive and therefore no end. And where there is love there is also death. The two cannot...

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    With the ending of sorrow there is passion, there is energy, incalculable energy, which is passion. Lust is a passing thing, to be repeated. But passion can never be repeated, it is there because there was the ending of sorrow. And most of us have not this passion because most of us are caught in pleasure.

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    ...is beauty. I feel to really go into it very deeply one must know what is suffering. Or understand what is suffering, because without passion you can't have beauty - passion in the sense, not lust, not the passion that comes when there is immense suffering. And the remaining with that suffering, not escaping from it, brings this passion. Passion...

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    The very word 'sorrow' has etymologically 'passion', the word 'passion'. Most of us have no passion. We may have lust; we may have ambition; may want to become a rich man. We devote our energies to all that. But that does not bring about passion. Only with the ending of sorrow there is passion. It is that total energy not limited by thought. So it...

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    ...problem, this is the human problem, and we must together examine, understand, communicate, talk it over, share together. Which means that you must be equally intense, passionate to try to find out and not depend on the speaker. And so when we are considering this problem, which is very complex and needs all our attention and naturally our passion...

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    That requires great energy, attention, passion. Not lust, that is just... Then that very passion, energy, the intensity of it is silence. Not contrived silence. It is the immense silence in which time, space is not. Then there is that which is unnameable, which is holy, eternal.

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    ...- none of that is responsible for this, we are responsible. And what is the cause of this? You understand now? Is the cause selfishness? Is the cause the accumulated knowledge - please listen carefully. We are not against knowledge, knowledge is necessary - to drive a car, to learn a language, to operate any electronic so on, so on, so on -...

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    K: Do it now, sir, not learn and then - see. Learning implies, doesn't it, that you have accumulated knowledge and then watch with that knowledge.

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    ...there is conflict. So, behaviour, order and the understanding of freedom from knowledge and the importance of knowledge. I cannot speak English, the speaker cannot speak English if he has not accumulated knowledge in English. Knowledge is necessary to drive a car, to do anything efficiently knowledge is necessary. But freedom from knowledge is...

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    One has accumulated knowledge, psychologically. I have been hurt many years ago as a boy, or a girl, I have been hurt. And that hurt has become my knowledge, it is there inside my skin. And I act according to that knowledge, which is I resist, I isolate myself in order not to be hurt more. And so there is constant division between me and another...

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    ...different ways. And also you see what knowledge has done, which is, you have accumulated knowledge as an experience of the sunset yesterday - please listen, do pay attention to this - you have accumulated that experience which has become knowledge and you want that experience repeated and it may not happen, therefore there is pain. So knowledge is...

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    ...been accumulated both in the field of science, in the field of technology, to function such knowledge is necessary. But to act in our daily life, in our relationship from an accumulated knowledge becomes a mechanical relationship. We are going to go into that, don't look so puzzled, we'll go into...

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    K: Having accumulated knowledge as time you can use it in the present. Is that it? Yes? Now listen to that: having accumulated knowledge, which is, I have learnt English and I use that language, that knowledge in the present. Right? Which is obvious, I am doing it.

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    ...Would I repeat it. I have knowledge. There is accumulated knowledge which is part of the brain - right? - the memories, which is knowledge, experience, the past. Now, one of the fragments uses that memory - right? - knowledge, for its own benefit, it exploits that knowledge. I see you are not getting it - let me begin again. The questioner asked,...

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    K: How does one set about freeing oneself from the accumulated knowledge? Look: if you had no accumulated knowledge you wouldn't be able to go home. You wouldn't be able to recognise your wife or your friend or your husband. Please see the difficulty of this. You need to have accumulated knowledge to function in your job. You must have it; you...

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    ...there a meditation which is not deliberate? If you ask that question, setting aside everything, you'll find out. Which means, a brain - if you are interested to go into this deeply - a brain that is free from all accumulated knowledge. Face it. Because all knowledge is conditioning. Right? Because knowledge is always limited. We went into it the...

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    ...It's generally accepted - the experience which yields, or leaves a mark which is knowledge. That accumulated knowledge whether in the scientific world or in the biological world or in the business world or in the world of the mind, the being, is the known. The known is the past, therefore knowledge is the past. Knowledge cannot be in the present....

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    ...there is the adding process going on. That is, knowledge is the residue of experience, of accumulated knowledge of the race, of society, of the scientist, biotic, all that, all the accumulation of human endeavour as experience scientifically or personally, is knowledge, to which you are adding or taking away. Knowledge which has no basis,...

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    And the other thing is to learn, not from another, not from a book, not from those people who have accumulated, or think they have accumulated knowledge and enlightenment and all that business, but to learn through observation, through listening. We have only learnt as a means of acquiring a capacity, a job, and that learning has becoming the...

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    ...gathered through previous observation. Am I learning, is there learning then? Because when the mind observes with an accumulated knowledge of its examination, from its examination, that knowledge is preventing perception, that knowledge is preventing the freedom to look. See the...

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    ...and what is being said. Therefore, you are not listening; you are merely comparing, measuring which is the function of thought. Thought is the response of memory, the accumulated knowledge of your own or of others. And when you listen - doesn't matter to what - specially to listen to those things that are intimate, serious, profound, the...

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    ...that you are wasting your life? Don't say, relative, positive, so much - wasting. And I said, wasting implies that this discontent, are you smothering it, are you running away from it, or try to find such deep satisfaction that discontent disappears. I consider that a waste of life, just to run away from...

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    K: You are discontent not about something, but it is a flame that is burning in you, not fed by another, by faggots or wood of not having this, not having that, wanting more, wanting less. So you find that there is a discontent by itself. Is that so?

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    ...Ah, all right. The other question is - is that enough, Narayan, have we discussed sufficiently that point? - the other question is: what is the relationship between discontent and meditation? We will come to you afterwards. What is the relationship between discontent and meditation? What do you think? As we said, discontent most of us have. Either...

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    ...Sir, I am not talking of total transformation. I am talking about how you come to the well which will perhaps quench all your discontent. Wait, sir, I haven't finished. And you are asking a question: has each one of us the capacity? It's up to you. Right, sir? It's up to you. If your discontent is tremendous then you go to the well with a...

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    Can there be discontent by itself? Or is it always associated with something? I am dissatisfied with my house, with my wife, with my job, with my looks, with my hair, with all god knows what else. Is discontent born out of comparison? You are following? Why do we compare? I know it is said through comparison there is progress and all the rest of...

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    K: No, you see, discontent, he says, is nearly suffering. Because you suffer because you can't get something out of discontent. I am married to a woman I don't like, I am discontent.

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    So can these two move together, or must they be separate, or the very discontent, keeping that flame alive is a form of meditation? You get it?

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    ...That's all. First let's I understand, sir, I understand. So let's be very clear that you are discontent with something. Right? Right, sir? With my relationship, I am not good at exams, I am not this, so you are discontented with something. Now what is it that you are discontented with? Then if you know what you are discontented with then we can...

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    K: Thought? I explained it, sir, just now. Thought is the response of memory, memory being experience, memory is the accumulation of knowledge. And thought is the response of that.

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    K: No. We went into this, sir. Thought, as we said, is response of memory, memory is knowledge, experience, and so from the past, thought is moving.

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    ...Which means what? Knowledge. Thinking is first the response of memory. If I had no memory I couldn't think. Memory implies Memory is stored in the brain, memory is the response of knowledge, knowledge is experience. Right? Experience, knowledge, memory, thought. So as knowledge will always be limited, so thinking is limited. Thinking may imagine,...

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    ...Then what is one to do? What is one to do when one realises that thought, which is the response of memory to any challenge, minor or major, which sustains both pleasure and fear, these are all facts, not the speaker's invention, or his peculiar philosophy or theory, these are absolute daily observable facts. Then the next question is, what is one...

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    K: So we are asking: what is thinking? Is not thinking the response of memory? Right, sir? Memory as knowledge, as experience, stored up in the brain, in the very cells themselves, and that knowledge, experience, memory, responds. So, the experience, knowledge, the memory, and the response of memory is thinking. Right? Right, sirs?

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    K: You have got it? Thought is experience, knowledge, memory, the response of memory is thought and action. Now I am asking is there an action which is not based on this?

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    ...very simple - you understand? - then you can go along with it. So the brain stores memory. Memory is the result of experience, incidents as knowledge. So thought is the response of memory. If you had no memory there would be no thinking, would there be? Please, come on. Right? Your memory is your conditioning. You are a Christian, you're an...

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    So, thought is the response of memory and if there was no memory there would be disorder. Right? Of course. Memory is necessary to function in daily life; technologically, educationally, reading, learning a language, driving a car, and so on and so on, so on. Memory and the remembrance stored up in the brain is necessary, but the disorder comes...

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    ...at our memories, how all our memories are either of yesterday or of a million years, and from those memories thought comes. You are following all this sir? Thought is the response of memory. If you are educated as an engineer, you have stored up an enormous amount of knowledge, stored up in the brain and that knowledge is memory and you think...

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    ...'I am a great man', or 'I am this'. And you call me an idiot and I don't like it, I am hurt. The image is hurt. Right? And that hurt is part of the image which is created by thought, that thought is the response of memory. Right? So the memory says, 'I have been hurt'. The image, the memory, the greater image of myself as being somebody, and that...

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    ...pattern, the tradition. So one has to be very clear for oneself what is the function of thought. If you observe very carefully in yourself, don't you find that thought is the response of memory, memory which is experience, which is knowledge? If you had no knowledge, no experience, no memory, there would be no thinking. You would live in a state...

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    ...we have to go very carefully into the question of thought. Thought is the response of memory. Memory is not only the remembrance of things past but also thought which projects itself as hope in the future. So thought is the response of memory, memory is knowledge, knowledge is experience. That is, there is experience, from experience there is...

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    So, thinking is the response of memory, memory being experience - not only your experience but man's total experience, and the accumulated knowledge of centuries of which you are the representative as man or woman. Right? So thinking is the response of memory. Memory is the past. Right? Of course. I remember something. You can't remember the...

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    ...one has to go into the question of what is thought? What is thinking? Is thinking new, free, or is it the response of memory? Obviously, a response of memory. If you have no memory you can't act, you can't speak. So thought is the response of memory, memory is experience, is knowledge, accumulated or stored up in the brain. The brain is the...

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    ...the mechanism - the mechanism is memory, knowledge, experience. Otherwise if you had no knowledge, no experience, no knowledge, you couldn't speak. Right? So thought is the response of memory. That memory may be conditioned, may be a little more free, a little less dogmatic, a little less assertive, a little less aggressive, but it is still the...

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    ...intellectually that words have no significance, but yet be caught in words. And to go into that question of time as coming to an end - because if it does not come to an end there is only variety in continuation, a modified change in continuity, which is time. Thought can adjust itself to any environment and shape itself according to various...

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    Now if we may, let us talk over together the question of decision, whether it is necessary to decide at all, and the place of will; and also we are going to discuss or talk over together the question of time and space. And perhaps if we have time we can go into the question of meditation too. So we are going to talk over together the machinery...

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    ...tent, expenditure, energy, petrol and all the rest of it, are we together thinking? Not you think and I think, thinking together. Then we can go into this question of time, thinking together, not your time, my time. It is very important because we are going to find out if we think together whether there is psychologically tomorrow at all, because...

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    ...there is something called love, all in the future, to be psychologically achieved. Right? Please if I labour this point it is important because when we go into the much deeper question of death, you have to understand this question of time. That is our conditioning. I need time to learn a language. I need time to learn a technique, I need time to...

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    ...which is very complex. We said we must understand the question of time, apart from the chronological time of yesterday, today and tomorrow - sunrises, sunsets - divided into twenty four hours; we are not talking about that; that's necessary, that exists, and if that doesn't play a part in your life then you'll lose your bus. But we are talking of...

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    ...alert, aware, is listening, paying tremendous attention to the question, not trying to solve it. So when you do that, that is, when you give complete attention, when you are totally sensitively aware, in that attention there is no question of time. But if you say, 'I need time to be attentive', that is to learn what it is to be attentive, then you...

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    You have also to understand - we are coming to the immense question of death presently, all this is a part of it - you have to understand this question of time. Time means movement. Right? From here to there, physically; to cover that distance from here to there you need time - time by the watch, time by the sun, time by day or time by year. And...

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    ...it. Right? Please. Right sir? I have been attentive now for a few minutes and it's gone, but I would like that attention to last, to go on. Now when you are attentive, is there any question of time? No. Then why are you asking that you must have time to be attentive, or time must be given for its duration? You understand? When you are attentive,...

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    As we talked about it the other day, time and thought are the two major factors in the manufacturing, if I can use that word, fear. We went into the question of time. Shall we go into it again? Yes? You're rather silent, so shall I... I'm not forcing you.

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    K: But I question whether they are really concerned with bringing about a right relationship between human beings, fundamentally, not superficially, just to adjust themselves for the day.

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    ...So to find out what is right action, because this demands tremendous, you know, inward insight into all this. It demands that you have right relationship with another - right relationship being no image-making at all. We are going into that, if you are interested, a little later. Then if there is fear of any kind, psychologically as well as...

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    ...can I find out something that's immensely beyond all this? Beyond time, beyond thought, beyond measure. I can't. 'Till we have established right relationship between us, which is order, how can I find that which is supreme order? So I must begin with you, not with that. I don't know if you are meeting...

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    ...romantic, nonsensical, impractical, valueless - it does not give you any money - that is so. So, having heard all this, is there a comprehension of the depth of that word so that your mind is in the heart, and then you have right relationship. When you have right relationship, which means love, you can never go wrong, you can do what you like,...

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    ...we continue with what we were talking about yesterday? We were pointing out how important it is to have right relationship with each other. As we see it now, in relationship there is a great deal of trouble, conflict, bitterness, jealousy, anxiety. And if we apply our minds, our hearts, to bring about right relationship in which, as we explained...

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    ...with which I am going to look. That I must suppress it, you promise to me by your words, not promise exactly, give me hope that if I have right relationship I will live a life that will be extraordinarily beautiful, I will know what love is and all the rest of it, therefore I am already excited by this idea.

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    ...is love the activity of thought? Right? Go on sir. Let's talk it over. Does the activity of thought bring about right relationship between two people? Because if you haven't established right relationship with one another you can sit on your legs crossed for the rest of your life. Unless you lay the foundation of relationship, having no conflict...

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    K: For yourself to be in right relationship. Are you in right relationship with your husband, with your wife, with your children? Of course not! We say, we must be, we should teach them don't be like me.

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    ...all the business, the transcendental meditation and all that, becomes utter stupid nonsense. Unless you establish right relationship between you and another, that being the very basis of existence, trying to meditate becomes an evasion of the actual. Therefore leads to all kinds of neurotic, destructive results....

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    ...living is relationship. If there is no right relationship there is no living at all, it is then merely a series of conflicts, either ending up in divorce, or just separation, or isolation with all its anxieties, attachments, fears and all the things that are involved in this sense of being completely isolated. I am sure you know all this. The more...

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    ...certainty. And a man who really is concerned to bring about a totally different kind of morality, behaviour, a social structure; until he understands and brings about right relationship with another, he is contributing to the brutality, to the violence, to the extraordinary things that are going on in this ugly, mad world.

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    ...cut itself off from every form of relationship. And relationship is the most important thing in life, because if we have not right relationship with one - please listen to this - if we have not right relationship with the one, you cannot possibly have right relationship with any other human being. You can imagine you'll have better relationship...

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    K: Quite. So let's move from there. We say as long as you have an image, pleasant or unpleasant, created, etc., etc., put together by thought and so on, there is no right relationship. That is an obvious fact. Right?

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    ...If you're not related properly to nature, the trees, birds, to nature, then you are not properly related to man or woman. And life is relationship, and it becomes very, very important to find out what is right relationship. We'll start with facts, and we're only dealing with facts, not with ideas what relations should be, should not be, what it...

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    ...we continue with what we were talking about yesterday? We were saying how important it is that we establish in ourselves right relationship with others, whether it be an intimate relationship or a relationship with a neighbour who might be next door or a thousand miles away. Because relationship without a conclusion, an image, brings about...

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    K: That's why I talked previously, I said how do you approach a problem, do you come to it freely or with a prejudice, etc., with a conclusion, this must be, this must not be, I must control - or do you come to it - you follow? - freely. Then the problem, it's like a wave that breaks down, and withers away.

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    ...with him, why should I shoot him? This becomes Wait, wait! Is somebody offering me a gun here, now? You are not offering me a gun, are you? To shoot somebody? Why does the problem arise? You see the problem arises because we are now beginning to speculate. What will you do if you are peaceful. Find out how to live peacefully first, and then that...

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    ...we, you and I, see what attention is? I feel as somebody wrote this morning, a letter came, in which the person says: where there is attention there is no problem; where there is inattention everything arises. Now without making attention into a problem, what do we mean by that? So that I understand it, not verbally, not intellectually but deeply,...

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    K: No, all of us, not you and I but all of us, is this a problem that you want to discuss, go into and resolve it, not next year start again and say, 'I am hurt, please tell me how to get rid of it' - that becomes too silly.

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    What makes it a problem - please listen carefully - what makes it a problem? Do you understand my question? A problem exists only when you want to resolve it. Right? Please listen carefully. I have a problem: my problem is I want to have a mind that is so clear, unhurt, not polluted, free, vital, full of beauty and energy. And I have examined, I...

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    Suppose I have a problem, a question about the world, about my relationship to the world, my anxiety, my agony. And what is my approach to the solution of that problem: my anxiety, my agony, my relationship to the world, how do I listen to the question, how do I approach it, come near it, how do I almost touch the question? You understand? So it...

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    K: Now how do we discuss, madame, this problem? Nobody seems to want to join except a few of us. All of us, it is all our problem, why don't we talk about it, why don't we go into it. Are we afraid to go into it? Wait, sir.

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    ...to be kind, generous, affectionate, full of beauty, and at the same time there is an ugly thing going on. Haven't each one of you got this? So your problem is his problem - don't say, 'Well, I can't help you'. We have to solve this problem together, that's why you are there and we are sitting...

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    ...the economic, the social, the political. Nobody seems to care in the struggle, the very destruction of man, the human being. Nobody has applied their mind and their heart to resolve this problem, this everlasting conflict. Meditation becomes a conflict, to change ourselves becomes a conflict; in any of our relationships, both intimate and...

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    ...To achieve non-violence is a deception, I said. So my problem - problem Problem means something thrown at you, the word etymologically means 'something thrown at you'. Now this is a question I have to resolve - violence. What is violence? Not only physical damage, to hurt somebody, it is also to get angry, also to hate. Right? Violence is also...

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    ...be quiet, but active when demanded. You're following all this? So I have a problem - not my problem - there is this problem, which is to have a very quiet, extraordinarily subtle mind, pliable, quick, sensitive, and free of the known, and yet function in the field of the known. The two must go together all the time, otherwise there is disharmony....

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    Haven't you got a problem of this kind? Isn't it your problem? Or are you merely concerned with over population, inflation, and how to get on with your wife or your husband, get a better job, corruption, you know, all the superficial things, which dominate most people, and if you are enquiring you must go very much deeper, not merely find...

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    JK: Sir, look that is what I'm - when you listen to the politicians who are so very active in the world, they are creating problem after problem and to them thought is the most important thing - ideals.

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    K: As each problem is interrelated, why not take one problem, such as order, and perhaps that could cover many of the questions that have been raised this morning.

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    ...is: can a human being, freeing himself from his conditioning - freeing doesn't mean time - live in this world, earn a livelihood and all the rest of that? I don't know if it is a problem to you. Is it a problem to any of you? Wait sir, let me make it clear, very clear, the...

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    If this is so for you as well as for the speaker, the importance of being completely free - from fear, from jealousy, anxiety, fear of death, the fear of not being loved, the fear of loneliness, the fear of not becoming successful, famous, achieving, the fear of not being loved, you know, all the fears - if this is the central issue, and it is the only issue in human existence - we are not being dogmatic, because man has sought freedom from the very beginning of time.

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    ...Everyone, or I can say, almost everyone is frightened of something. It may be the fear of death, fear of loneliness, fear of not being loved, fear of not becoming famous, successful and also fear of not having physical security, and the fear of not having psychological security. There are so many multiple forms of fears. Now to go into this...

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    We have to live a marvellous, beautiful life, and if one lives in fear, which is anxiety, guilt, a sense of failure - you know, fear: fear of the dark, fear of death, fear of losing your money, fear of not becoming a great man, fear of - you know, dozens and dozens of forms of fear - but fear is the same expressed in different ways. So thought...

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    K: Yes, yes, of course. So are we all, can we move together in this, know that fear we are concerned with, not with fear of darkness, fear of death, fear of this, fear of that.

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    ...of our consciousness with its fear. We are not talking about the various forms of fear - fear of old age, fear of death, fear of loneliness, fear of anxiety, fear which breeds hate, fear of not arriving, not achieving, not fulfilling, not reaching Nirvana, or whatever you want to reach spiritually. We are not talking about the objects of fear but...

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    ...up with fear. Has never been able to solve fear. Never. There are various forms of fears; you may have your own particular form of fear: fear of death, fear of gods, fear of your wife, fear of your husband, fear of the politicians, god knows how many fears humanity has, the devil, and so on. What is fear? Not the mere experience of fear in its...

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    ...separated. That is, to end is to begin. Oh, you don't understand. The speaker tells you this but you won't do it. You will continue your own ways of selfishness and arrogance and all the rest of it and always live with fear of death. And the speaker says, the living is more important than the dying, and the dying is to...

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    ...are trying to point out is that life is one, the living, love and death are one, they are not three separate things. And when you separate them there is conflict, there is agony, there is pain, there is sorrow and the fear of death. But when life is a whole, non-fragmented, harmonious, total, then to such a mind there is freedom from...

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    ...has captured, seen that extraordinary movement and it is part of that energy. I want to come much closer to earth, which is I have lived with death, fear of death, fear of not being and so on, and suddenly I see there is no division and I understand this whole thing. So what has happened to my brain? You follow...

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    ...How shall I begin, from where shall I begin? To be aware of myself - myself being all the beliefs, the dogmas, the conclusions, the fears, the anxieties, the pain, the sorrow, the fear and the fear of death, and so on, the whole of that, where shall we begin to find out the content of this? You...

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    ...Oh, you don't know what you are frightened of? Losing a job, not having money - investigate it, sir, look at it - don't say, 'no', right off - fear of death? Not coming up to the ideal which you have set up for yourself? You have measured yourself against another and you feel that you cannot completely fulfil, completely reach that point. Or you...

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    If you have no fear, completely no fear both of external incidents, accidents, and also inwardly absolutely no fear of death, of tomorrow, of time, then what is the necessity for god? Then you yourself then there is that state which is eternal - which we won't go into now.

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    ...you? Oh, for god's sake, you are frightened, you are frightened human beings, of being alone, frightened of not having psychological security or physiological security, of failure, of having no love, of not being loved, fear of loneliness, despair, not going beyond this everlasting sorrow and strife, and ultimately there is the fear of death.

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    And our life, a great portion of our life unfortunately is based on fear: fear of poverty, fear of not achieving what we want, success - and in this country success is worshipped as a god - fear of physical pain, fear of old age, fear of death, fear of what somebody says about you - you know the innumerable fears that the mind has collected, both conscious as well as unconscious.

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    ...no fear. Right? Shall we go into it? Are you interested in it? We are saying that the art of living demands that there should be no fear at all - fear of psychological security, fear of death, fear of not becoming something, fear of losing, gaining - you know the whole problem of fear. Shall we talk about it together? Whether it is possible to...

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    ...is lack of order, then what is order. How can a mind, brain, which is so disorderly find out what is order? Why don't we be a little bit logical, rational - though reason, logic are limited, you must begin with that and then go beyond it. But if you say order is this, then it becomes military - right? It becomes a tremendous discipline - agree?...

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    ...of every kind, old age, death, sex - you know the whole invasion of problems our brain is so used to. Does one expect, if one may ask seriously, for someone to tell how to live, how to examine, what to do, is that the reason you are here? Or is it that one wants to see what one is actually as we are sitting here, and examine that very closely and...

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    ...we think along those grooves; if you are committed to a particular religion, an ideological structure, again your thinking is conditioned by that. So we begin to lose the capacity to reason. Reason implies a certain quality of scepticism, doubt, not accepting anything, either from the psychologists, professors, or from the sacred books - there are...

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    ...a mind in conflict must inevitably be distorted, and therefore it cannot possibly see clearly what is truth. This is logic, reason, and we are afraid to exercise reason, logic, because we think logic, reason is something not spiritual. But if you do not know how to reason clearly, objectively, impersonally, healthily, you cannot possibly have a...

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    K: Yes, madame. Look, I've just looked at a first-class dictionary, (laughs) and it says the intellect is the capacity to reason, capacity to think clearly, to understand, to grasp. So thought is in operation. When you reason, thought is in operation.

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    So in listening here this morning, you might say, well, I have really understood it, perhaps verbally, intellectually, I see the whole logic, and the reason and the practicality of it. But when you go outside, are you going to fall into the trap of the old tradition? If you do, then you haven't listened at all.

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    ...when there is no self, when there is utter denial of selfishness. So is that the reason why human beings throughout the world we are becoming more and more selfish, more and more self-centred, more and more this sense of individual achievement, individual salvation? When that is emphasised selfishness becomes all important, rationalised,...

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    ...flowering of goodness can only take place when there is no time. I wonder if you understand this. Bene? At least, please, even grasp intellectually, see the reason, the logic of it, and then let the logic end and observe what is going on. You follow what I am saying? Don't - I mean if I may point out - don't let reason function all the time,...

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    K: What is the reason for disorder. That is what I am asking. What is the reason, the source, the essence of disorder? Just a minute, don't quote anybody, including myself. Just a minute, sir. Because if you do you are just answering, saying something which others have said. So throw out what others have said, including this person. Don't belong...

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    K: Therefore understanding has nothing to do with thought. You may reason, which is the process of thinking, logic and reason, till you say, 'I don't understand it', then you become silent, and then you say, 'By Jove, I see it, I understand it.' That understanding is not the result of thought.

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    K: We are coming to that, sir. First look at the reason. Just look at it. And then we'll come to the root of it. We have to use our minds, we have got to use our reason and go beyond reason. We can't just say reason doesn't count.

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    To go into it one must exercise reason. You exercise reason when you are earning a livelihood, when you have to do some job, when you have to carry out a certain task. Reason is the capacity to think sanely and logically, to think clearly, coherently.

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    Reason has its limitation. Reason is to observe objectively, impersonally the whole phenomenon of our religious organisations and structure with their gurus, priests and images created by the hand or by the mind. One is afraid to use reason but you do use reason: when you go to the office, when you build an engine, when you produce technologically...

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    ...and therefore act totally when it realises there is nothing permanent? Or will it become insane? You follow? When you are confronted with this problem that there is nothing permanent, including your structure of thought, can you stand it? You understand? Can you see the significance of saying there is nothing permanent - including yourself,...

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    So a man who would live totally differently must understand the whole nature and structure of thought. Thought is measurable. And if we live only at that level, then our life is shallow, meaningless. You can go to the moon and kill each other, it has no meaning. Or go to the office everyday for the next forty years - just think of it! And that's...

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    ...it, you are going ahead of your problems. I have a problem. I have a problem of violence, I want to understand it completely, totally, so that the mind is entirely free from violence altogether, completely, and it can only understand it by understanding what is the structure of thought. It is thought that is breeding violence: it's my house, my...

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    That is: when one understands the nature and the structure of thought, and the things that thought has put together in this world - as racial minority, as colour difference, national divisions and so on - when thought recognises its limitation and remains within that limitation and so there is freedom from thought, then what takes place? And what...

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    JK: Of course. That's why, sir, I feel if once we grasp the nature of thought, the structure of thought, how thought operates; what is the source of thought, and therefore it is always limited, if we really see that then...

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    ...a difference totally untouched by thought - is there such an instrument? And to find out one must be very, very clear, the nature and the structure of thought, its responsibility, its usage, where it is limited, and recognise its limitation and move away from that limitation. Then one can begin to enquire whether there is totally a different...

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    K: What do you mean by the structure of thought. The tent is the structure of thought - right? - depending on the stress, strain, the proportions, and the necessity, the structure. The tent is independent of thought. I mean by structure also the movement of thought which imagines, which builds, which foresees, which lays down a structural path to...

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    He wanted to know what is the nature and the structure of thought, and whether thought can disentangle itself from the verbal network it has created for itself and functions so superficially, and cannot go very deeply. Would that cover this? Shall we discuss that; would that have some meaning?

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    ...we went into the question of thought. And I think it is very important to understand the whole nature and structure of thought because thought has created all the things with which we live. Thought is the essence of our existence. Thought translates our emotions, our sensory responses; thought has created the technological world and the world in...

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    ...itself from something which it has created? I don't know if you are following this. Don't you say, 'I must control'? And the 'I' is the structure of thought, that which he is controlling is also the structure of thought. I wonder if you see this. Please, do see this very clearly. If we don't, let's examine it more. That is, let's go into it a...

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    ...if thought can bridge all these various fragments, can bring about an integration between all these factors? Can it? So one has to find out what is the nature and the structure of thought before we say that thought can or cannot? Thought, can thought, the thinking, the mentation, the intellectual process of reasoning, can such thought bring about...

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    ...as well as psychological. I may not have biological, physiological experience, but I might have psychological experience, which is what? Psychological, the psyche is the structure of thought as the 'me'. Right? Thought has put together a structure which is called 'me': the name, the form, the quality; all that is thought. So thought is a material...

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    So, you have to understand the nature and the structure of thought in order to be totally, completely free of fear. It is thought that is making fear. It is thought that says what might happen or what has happened in the past, and I am afraid of that. Right? So, that is why it is important to investigate the whole movement and the nature of...

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    ...to find out. We like to think there is something beyond thought, something extraordinary - god, spark of divinity, something utterly beautiful, romantic. That is all the structure of thought. But to find out if there is something beyond thought I have to know the right place of thought, I have to know the limits of...

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    ...don't understand what is thinking, you will never be able to delve deeply into that which is beyond thought. So we have to understand the nature, and the structure of thought, why thought has such extraordinary importance in our life. We have emotions but thought recognises those emotions, classifies them, good and bad, worthwhile and noble and so...

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    So if you are the rest of mankind - you are the mankind - then what is your responsibility to man? What is your responsibility to what is happening in the world? Probably you have never asked this question of yourself. You say my responsibility is to my family, to my country. But the idea of your country is just another invention of thought. So...

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    K: That's why don't let time interfere with this question. I am a human being. My way of life, my way of thinking, my action, is comparatively like the rest of mankind. They may have outward differences, but deeply I am the rest of mankind. I am mankind.

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    So, if the human being who is the rest of mankind psychologically, if he changes completely, is he not adding, helping, increasing a totally different kind of mind to it? Are you following this? All right, suppose I change radically, belonging, recognising that I am the rest of mankind, and personally I mean it, it is not just intellectual...

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    K: No, no. I am mankind because we all suffer, we all go through a hell of a time. So I am the rest of mankind, so I am humanity. That is real love.

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    ...what shall I do, knowing that I am the rest of humanity, not Mr K? You understand my question? What am I, as a human being, who is the rest of mankind - I don't ask whither mankind, where mankind is going because I am mankind. I wonder if you see the importance of this. I wonder if you see the depth of it, the beauty of it, the immensity of it,...

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    ...be short, you may be pale, you may be white or semi-white, or brown, black and so on, those are all peripheral, outside activities. But deep inward states, we are like the rest of mankind, so you are the mankind. You are the rest of humanity. Right? Please, this requires, this is real one has to be industrious with regard to this. Work it out so...

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    ...at all. Though religions, established religions, the Christian world, the Hindu world and perhaps there is slightly modified in Buddhism and Islam, this idea, this concept, this belief that you are an individual separate from all the rest of mankind and so each one is striving after his own security, his own happiness, his own salvation. But there...

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    ...separate private souls - which we have gone into previously, I won't go into all that - because you are not. You are the rest of mankind because you suffer, you are in agony, you are lonely, you are depressed like all the rest. So you are basically, fundamentally the rest of mankind. You are humanity - right? And if you are humanity, and you are,...

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    Is this consciousness common to all mankind, common in the sense, not degrading - is this consciousness yours or also the rest of mankind? Wherever one goes, one sees suffering, pain, anxiety, loneliness, insanity, fear, seeking security, caught in knowledge, the urge of desire, loneliness; it is common, it is the ground on which every human being...

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    ...first, if we may, let us look at the book which we are, each one of us. We are the rest of mankind. Please follow this a little bit, if you will. We are not individuals. Our consciousness, with its content, is like the rest of mankind. Our consciousness, that is what you are, your beliefs, your sorrows, your anxieties, your pain, your miserable...

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    ...division between you and another, between you and your religion, between you and your god, between you and your ideologies. So is it possible to understand - not intellectually but deeply, that you are the rest of mankind. Whatever you do, good or bad, affects the rest of mankind, because you are the...

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    ...So you, and we, are the rest of humanity, we are not separate human beings psychologically. You may be a woman, I may be a man, you may be tall, dark, short and so on, but inwardly, psychologically, which is far more important, we are the rest of mankind. You are the rest of mankind, and so if you kill another, if you are in conflict with another,...

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    ...Insecure, uncertain, fearful, constantly in conflict, burdened with great sorrow - like those who live in this country. Right? This is a fact. So is your consciousness different from the rest of mankind?

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    ...means to suppress it, rationalise, and so on. But if we realise that sorrow is sorrow of all mankind, all humanity - and we are the rest of humanity because we have fears, sorrow, pleasure, anxiety, like the rest of mankind - if we realise sorrow is not my sorrow, that becomes such a small affair. Which is, we are the whole of mankind, we are the...

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    ...Don't bother about the few or the many, sir, but what is the quality of your mind, your mind, after examining all this? That is, psychologically we are the rest of mankind. Right? That's obvious, isn't it? What you suffer, people suffer similarly in India, in America, in Russia. What you go through - your sorrows, your pleasures, your anxieties -...

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    ...he can't completely convey on that canvas or in words what he feels, and in that also is a form of pleasure. And when that self-expression from which the artist, the writer, the speaker - anybody - derives great pleasure, is that beauty?

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    So I compare myself with somebody who is great or successful, has a bigger car and all the rest of it, because it gives me energy in my drive to be like go beyond, which is ambition. Is that why you cling to comparison, because in that there is great pleasure?

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    ...there is the question of pleasure. Is pleasure different from fear? We always pursue pleasure. Right? By wearing those strange medallions and beads, it is a great pleasure to you, (laughter) obviously, otherwise you wouldn't put them on. That makes you feel you are different from all the rest of us. So is that pleasure different from fear? Or fear...

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    ...So you blame the image on the society? Is it? Or am I also building an image about myself all the time? Society says you must be a great success. And also to be successful gives me great pleasure. So it is a combination of both. No? So I have built, I am building an image about myself all the time, based on pleasure and pain. (Laughs) I don't know...

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    ...result of my demand for pleasure. You have understood my question? My principle drive is pleasure - pleasure in every direction. I want to be safe tomorrow because that gives me great pleasure, assurance, certainty.

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    ...there is dependency there must be jealousy, anxiety. Just listen to it, you can't do anything about it, just listen. And when you see it, act, don't keep on saying, 'Why shouldn't I be attached, it gives me great pleasure? And if I am not attached I will be terribly lonely'. Be lonely, find out what it means to be lonely, go through it, look at...

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    ...The desire to be famous and the pleasure in becoming famous or notorious, in having a good house, good taste, good possession, good status, all that. Being good is also a great pleasure. And there is great pleasure in controlling your body completely, and so on and on. Now given all this, being aware of all this, not just little bits of pleasure,...

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    ...Find out. It happens with some things you don't like. You can drop those things very easily. But something that gives you great pleasure, great excitement, sexual, I don't know, whatever it is. The experience can it be dropped, instantly removed? That's what we are asking in different words. You have hurt me and I know all the implications of that...

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    ...second of perception there is neither pleasure, nothing, there is just perception. Isn't that so? Have you noticed it? Then thought comes and says 'how beautiful that was, how lovely that was, what a great pleasure that gave me'. So thought gives it a continuity: from the remembrance of something in the past as beauty, then thought comes, makes it...

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    ...it and searching out, asking, demanding, wanting. Our whole religious organisations are based on that. It is a vast entertainment, it gives great pleasure, which is great sensation, that you are in the presence of holy things and so on.

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    ...remembrance, isn't it? One never says when one is happy, 'How happy I am', it is always after, the remembrance of that thing which gave you pleasure and the remembrance of that pleasure; like a sunset, when you look at the glory of the evening, full of that extraordinary light, it gives great pleasure, great delight. Then that is remembered, then...

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    ...knowledge is never complete but he forgets that part and only remembers the knowledge which he has acquired. And in that there is great pleasure - sensory, sexual, romantic, sentimental, intellectual, having experiences, which are sensory. So this whole combination of various elements brings this extraordinary feeling of pleasure - right? Why...

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    ...- when you can say, 'This is pleasure'? Or you only know it after. You recognise it as pleasure when it is over, which is the movement of thought as time. I wonder if you see this thing! So is there a moment when you say, 'My god, this is great pleasure!' But only when thought, when that incident which has been called 'pleasure', in quotes, has...

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    ...If you had pain you wouldn't identify yourself with it. If somebody kicked me I wouldn't identify myself with it, but I would identify myself with somebody who gives me great pleasure. So watch it, sir, go into it. I identify myself because it gives me pleasure, gives me security, makes me feel certain, gives me comfort, satisfaction and so on,...

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    ...- the Pieta - and you look at it, it is the most extraordinary thing - not the subject, I don't know about that, but the quality of that. And in the perception of it, there is great pleasure, great delight. You go away and the mind thinks about it, thought begins. You say, what a lovely thing that was. In seeing there was great feeling, a quality...

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    ...The psychological structure is the characteristics of the ego, the 'me', the 'I'. The 'I' is fear, anxiety, depression, violence, cruelty, the ideals of being non-violent, all that is in the psychological world, the world inside you, inside your skin as it were. That is the world in which we live which dominates the external. Those idealists,...

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    K: No, please you have asked a question Ah, you're going on, you don't you've asked a very good question, you don't stop there, you are moving. What place has knowledge in the psychological world? Right? Now may I ask you something? Is remembrance of your wife, or your husband or your girl, which is in the psychological field, is that love?

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    ...you, if one may point out, you are facing all this. Don't disregard all this because the psychological world, the inner world, what you are inwardly, overcomes whatever social structure, governments are established - always overcomes all that. As you see it in Russia, they started out by having no government, no army, no division, no nationality;...

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    So similarly, we are saying, order can only come into being when thought, which is necessary in certain areas, has no place in the psychological world. And therefore in that world, that world itself is in order when thought is absent. Are we meeting each other?

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    ...is natural, it is there, it is a fact: you are tall, another is short, one is very, very clever, the other is not, and so on. But go beyond that, or go below that, which is in the psychological world. In the psychological world we all share the same sorrow, sorrow is common to all of us. You may have pleasure in one way but it is still pleasure....

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    K: We are living both in the psychological world and in the physical world. The psychological world dominates the physical world. The physical world doesn't dominate the psychological world. You can have all the money, all the food, all the cars, everything, but you may be unhappy because your husband or wife has run away, you know, all the rest...

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    ...the fear of death. This is the common problem of humanity, not only problems of an individual but of humanity, of which you are. Right? That is, the world, psychological world is you and you are that world. You are not different. If I may point out most respectfully, you are not different from the American, Russian, Chinese, European or anybody,...

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    And if it can go in one direction with such extraordinary vigour, extraordinary energy that has been put into the technological world, if it can go in the other direction, that is not in the direction of amusement, entertainment, but in the world of the psyche, the psychological world, then it has an extraordinary infinite capacity, both outwardly, that is the technological world, and the inward, the psychological world.

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    So as the computer and the robot are taking over the activities of thought we have only these two choices: either pursuing pleasure, entertainment, or entering into the whole psychological world and see how far, how deeply one can go into it. So, if we can take the journey together, we will walk together into the world which are the senses,...

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    ...Both of them running together. Bien? Is that possible? The speaker thinks that is the only right kind of education. Not just the one kind of education, but to understand the other side - which is the psychological world. You are mankind, you are the history of man. You are the story of mankind, obviously, because you have suffered, you have gone...

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    I am anger, am I not? Anger is not something separate from me. I am greed, envy, anxiety. Right? I like to think that is something separate over which I have control. But the actual fact is I am all that - even the controller is me. Right? So there is no division between greed, anger, jealousy, and so on - that is me, that is the observer. Right?...

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    We are saying: what takes place when the observer is the observed which is anger? You can test this out for yourself. Don't accept a thing the speaker is saying, because if you accept, repeat, then you are second-hand human beings, which you are. So, please have the courtesy, the dignity, the intensity not to accept anything, psychologically. So,...

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    K: I never said - those are biological demands, but psychologically - anger, envy, jealousy, hate, attachment - can't you end all that? Of course, one can. Then do it! Talk to your wife or your husband, to your neighbour, gently, quietly, with affection, with care. Sir, you make me cry! You don't listen to all this.

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    K: If I don't hold my anger I am afraid I might kill somebody. Look, look. Before you kill somebody, try to find out if you can resolve the anger. To control it is to suppress it. To say, 'I must not be angry' is to create the opposite, and therefore a conflict between 'must not be' and the fact that I am. Right? Or if you try to escape from it,...

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    ...it. Before I am aware or anything, I say to myself, is it possible for me to watch - casually, I'm playing with it, I am having a game with myself. I am watching the movement of anger arising. I think that's fairly simple. Right? I think you've noticed all that, haven't you? No,...

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    K: How do I know that anger is a fact and the opinion about anger is a conclusion. Right? Don't you know? The opinion, the judgement about anger is a conclusion. And the fact I'm angry is a fact. For the love of god.

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    Sir, we have the idea, a concept, a tradition that I am different from my anger. I am the atman and all that kind of stuff, I am different from everything, I am the watcher. Right? I am the controller. As that gentleman points out very clearly, that if I don't do anything now, that is, I won't be attached, I won't do anything about my attachment,...

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    K: Sir, no, not my relationship with truth. I am angry. Right? Suppose I am angry - there is anger, not I am angry - there is anger. Can I, is there an observation of that feeling, that reaction, without the whole movement of thought coming into it? That's all my question.

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    K: You are anger at that moment. You are envy at that moment. And so there are many, many moments you are. Right? You are your anger, you are your name, you are your bank account, if unfortunately you have a bank account, you are your family you are your society, you are your god - you are, you invented all this. So, there is no 'you' separate...

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    ...what happens when you when the observer is the observed. You understand? When the anger is me, then what takes place? Have you enquired into this or you just say, 'Yes, I am the observer, the observed'? Meaningless. But to find out or experience, go into it and find out if anger is always different from you. That has been the tradition, that has...

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    So the hurt is not different from me, the 'me' is the image, and that image gets hurt, so I am that image. Like anger is not different from me, I am anger. I might think I am different but in actuality I am anger. So do you see the truth of it - not the idea of it? the actual truth that when you are angry that anger is you.

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    K: Sir, look at it in yourself. At the moment of jealousy, or of anger, or of envy, or of hate, whatever it be, happiness, at that second there is no division, is there?

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    K: Wait, careful, don't agree so quickly. You are not different from all that. Right? Are you different from anger? No, of course not. So you are anger. Right?

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    K: Look, sir, can you watch, is there an observation of that feeling without naming it? The moment you say, anger, it is violence. Right?

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    K: If one is only experience, the questioner asks, and the experiencer is fear, but only lives in experience, without that experience being recorded and recognised in the future as an experience, what happens. Is that it? I think one has first to find out what we mean by that word 'experience'. Doesn't it means to go through? Doesn't it imply...

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    K: The questioner says he is concerned primarily about himself. Is that a fact? Could we start from that? No? Aren't you all concerned about yourself?

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