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    So without compassion there is no meditation. You understand, sir? Because without compassion, which means passion for everything, care for everything, respect for everything, without compassion what is sacred can never be found. You understand? You know we have created - thought has created something sacred - the temples, the churches, the...

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    K: I come to it, sir, because there is something different in me operating. Compassion, love, intelligence, all that is operating in me.

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    ...do it? And therefore when you do it, it affects the totality of consciousness. Which means in the understanding of oneself, which is the understanding of the world, because I am the world, there comes not only compassion but a totally different kind of energy. And this energy, with its compassion, has a totally different kind of action. That...

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    ...or holds in something that has to be held. We've talked about fear. And yesterday morning we talked about, together, sorrow and the ending of sorrow, and what is love, compassion - which has nothing whatsoever to do with kindliness, with pity, with prayers, devotion. All that has nothing whatsoever to do with love and compassion, which has its own...

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    ...ago. But I am not there, neither in Honduras, Nicaragua or San Salvador. I can't do anything there. But I can do something here. Sir you are going... I said compassion implies great intelligence. Compassion cannot possibly exist if you are identified with a group, with a particular form of worship or religious organisation, if you go out to India...

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    So we are going to examine together the various contents of consciousness, in which compassion doesn't exist. There is pity in it, there is sympathy, there is tolerance, there is the desire to help, there is a peculiar form of love, but all that is not compassion. So we are going to examine that thing. Please understand, though the speaker is...

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    ...during the last six talks, or whatever we have been through, four or five, we have tried to bring about clarity. Out of that clarity and compassion comes intelligence. Intelligence is compassion, is clarity, the awakening of that. And that awakening in the midst of this misery can come about, when you live with it completely. You understand? When...

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    And when you don't escape, when you are completely motionless in front of this suffering then you will see out of this suffering comes compassion, and that's love. Compassion means passion for all human beings, for everything, not just for human beings, or for your little child, or become a social worker, passion for everything: for the hills, for...

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    The questioner says, you speak of compassion and you claim - please, I don't the speaker doesn't claim anything. Then you can kick him around if he claimed, but as he doesn't claim anything and he doesn't speak of compassion as though something extraordinary that human beings have lost or not found, so we have to go into this question together.

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    You speak of compassion - well, I'll go into it - you speak of compassion but claim that action should have no cause. In what way does compassion act without having a cause?

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    ...I know, I know, I've heard it. When you use that word, are you again using that word superficially or there is compassion in you? You understand? When you say, yes, compassion, that becomes utterly superficial; you have already stamped it. The word 'compassion' means passion for all, not just for your family. And you cannot have compassion if you...

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    ...the so-called love has no space and therefore that love is really irresponsible. And responsibility comes into being only when there is compassion. Compassion not for you - compassion. Like the sun, it is not shining for you. So where there is vast space there is compassion. And that vast space cannot come into being if there is a centre as the...

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    So out of passion comes compassion. Compassion means passion for all things, for all human beings. So there is an ending to sorrow. And only then you will begin to understand what it means to love.

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    K: Can we ask this question: what is compassion which is love - we're using that one word to cover a wide field. What is compassion? Can a man who is in sorrow, thought, image, can he have that? He can't. Absolutely he cannot. Right? Right?

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    JK: Because now that comes into - we must go into something else. Because compassion is related to intelligence. There is no intelligence without compassion. And compassion can only be when there is love which is completely free from all remembrances, personal jealousies and all that kind of thing.

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    ...and in conflict. So you must find out, not accept, not deny, find out for yourself, for God's sake, what love means. That word has been spoiled by religions - love of god, love of human beings, love of - whatever you love. So we are asking: is love pleasure? And we have made in this modern world, and probably in the Victorian era too, only they...

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    ...yes. (Laughter) So I think when we explore that word and meaning and the significance of it one has to be very, very serious about this matter because they are using this word so loosely, it has become so corrupt - love of God, love of my wife, love of my property, love of my country, I love to read, I love to go to the cinema - you follow? And...

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    ...problem. You ought to shed tears. Our life is destroyed by all this. So, what is love? Love of God, your God which you have invented, because out of your projection, out of your fear, out of your sense of insecurity, you create the temples, mosques, churches. So, what is love? You know, through negation you come upon the positive. When you negate,...

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    ...that love to some object created by thought, and we are satisfied with that. Because it is very convenient that, we can keep ourselves individual, self-centred, anxious, frightened, greedy, attached, and talk about love of god, which is sheer irrational nonsense.

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    ...You are ambitious, aren't you, all of you? Can you love when you are ambitious, when you are competitive? And you talk a great deal about love, don't you? Love of god, of course, I forgot that! That's your favourite slogan. When you don't know how to love man you love god. Oh, don't laugh, you are so immature,...

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    ...learnt verbally what it means' - which is not love at all. When you leave here it must be boiling in you. What is love? Is it pleasure, is it desire, is it the product of thought, is it the love of God and the hate of man? Right? That's what you do, don't you, you love God, and you kick your fellow man. You love the politician - oh, not the...

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    ...put aside all comparison, which means all envy. Then, is love pleasure? This is going to be a little more difficult. For most of us, love is pleasure - there is love, sexual love, love of God or love of - God knows what else. It is based on pleasure. The love of respectability is the very essence of the bourgeois...

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    ...that love? Is love desire? We have translated love as desire and pleasure. Or you say love is: only one can love God and if you love God you love man. But the love of God is the love of your image. Have you understood what I am saying? You want to throw bricks at me, you ought to be furious, but you are not. You accept this as you accept anything...

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    ...have no love for each other. We talk about love of god but we don't love each other. And besides, god is the invention of man. Right? I know you are all believers in god probably but you have invented that entity. If god does exist and if he does, if he has created us, what a miserable god he must be! Right? You don't want to look at it that way....

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    ...what is love. Are you waiting for me to tell you? (laughter) This is a very complex question, because all of us feel we love something or other, not only the abstract love, love of a nation, love of a people, love of god, love of gardening, love of overeating; we have abused that word so terribly. So we have to find out basically what is love. You...

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    ...totalitarian people, that word is probably an abomination - they only know it as the love of the country, the love of the State. Or if you are a Christian you have love of god or love of Jesus, or love of somebody. In India it is the love of their particular guru, or their particular deity and so on. So we are asking, putting all that aside, not...

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    ...you won't will you? Will you do it? You see, you will do anything but that; you'll go to the temples, you'll go to the guru, you will read endless sacred books, repeat mantras, you know, play tricks upon yourselves, and you will talk about love of God, your devotion to your guru - you know all that tommyrot. But you won't do one thing which is to...

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    ...of this image and creating another image. All that is what we call love and the priests have invented another thing, the love of god, because it is much easier to love god, an image, an idea, a symbol, created, put together by the mind or by the hand than to find out what love is in relationship. Are you following all this? So what is love? And is...

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    ...is the root of conflict - is that knowledge, that conflict, is that love? Not love of some romantic idea: love of God, love of, you know all that kind of stuff, love between human beings, a friendship, a sense of communication, communion, non-verbal, verbal.

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    ...it, not destroy it, not waste it away through our pleasure. They have talked about it endlessly. And Christians have also talked about it - love of God, love of Jesus, you know, all that, and yet we are too ready to kill, to be violent, to be brutal. And when you see all this there is not only great sorrow but also the passion to see that things...

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    Krishnamurti: That's what we are going to discuss, we are going to go into it, is that what you want to talk over? May I set the ball rolling and then we can... please, this is not a talk, or a sermon, by me, but rather we are all going to partake or share in our discussions, so each one of us, if I may most respectfully suggest that we all talk,...

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    K: Just a moment, please. Wait. May I - I am not being rude - may I finish the talk, and if we have time you can ask the question. I hope you don't mind my saying this.

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    You know this is a dialogue, a conversation between us, between two friends who are seriously interested in all the problems of existence. So it is not a talk by me, but together converse, to go into amicably, without any aggression into all the problems that perhaps one has. So what shall we talk over together this morning?

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    I hope we are meeting each other, we are investigating together, because please bear in mind this is not a talk given by the speaker for you to listen and agree, or disagree, and go home, and carry on in your usual life. But on the contrary, this investigation together becomes very serious; and being serious it affects our lives. And if you don't...

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    K: Ah, I see what you are trying to The gentleman has read something which I wrote! (Laughter) And he wants me to talk about that instead of about thought. Perhaps we can talk about that at the end of the talk, at the end of this, which doesn't mean I am avoiding, which doesn't mean I am keeping it secret. You cannot possibly talk about the...

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    We ought to talk over together a great many things this evening. We should talk over why human beings get hurt, not biologically but psychologically. And that hurt they carry all through their life. And also we ought to talk over together the question of sorrow, whether that sorrow can ever end and the implications that are involved in the ending...

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    We have only this talk and tomorrow, so we have to make a rapid survey, and we cannot possibly go into all the details of what we are going to talk about. But I am sure you will fill the gaps.

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    The speaker said at the first talk or previously you need great intelligence to live peacefully. And the question is, go into it, discuss it, have a dialogue about it.

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    I believe we are going to talk over together the question of what is the meaning of 'Be a light to yourself' - what is the meaning of being a light to yourself. If you don't like that subject we can change it to something else which you want. And I think it would be good, if I may suggest, that we all talk, not one or two of us talk, but each one...

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    ...heard all the announcements. May I also announce that I am going to talk? And also that you are going to share in the talk. It is not a solo, but together, and the speaker means together, not that he is leading you or helping you or trying to persuade you, but rather together, and that word is important, together we take a very, very long journey....

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    Krishnamurti: We'll start the discussion As I said, please let me talk a little and then we will have a dialogue. If we could, this morning and the next four mornings, realise, if I may point out, that we are not a whole thousand or two thousand people in the tent but we are talking to each other, single person. You understand? You and the speaker...

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    K: Yes. You see, sir, what is happening now? We are dissipating by talk, by words, by explanations, so we're not actually saying, 'Yes, I am attached, let me look.'

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    Please discuss with me, don't accept anything I am talking about. This is not a talk by me. We are discussing the thing together, talking over together.

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    K: A conversation between us about serious things of life. And if the weather is good tomorrow evening, there will be a talk by the speaker. So, what shall we talk about?

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    K: We said all that yesterday. We said yesterday: I am humanity. We went into about consciousness and all that. I am humanity. I am not different from the rest of you; I am the whole of mankind. Right? We discussed that - or didn't we?

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    K: No, go into it sir. Why as a human being, you or I or another, who is the essence of all humanity - right sir? - psychologically he is the essence of all humanity, therefore when you are aware of yourself you are representing the whole of mankind. And you or another has no compassion - why?

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    ...activity only makes it more narrow, more limited and therefore it becomes more of a prison. Whereas if we could during these talks and dialogues, or questions and answers, if we could relate ourselves to the whole of humankind, to the whole of humanity. We are part of that humanity. Over in the east they suffer just as much as you do, they have...

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    ...Which is me. It doesn't matter whether you say, I see myself as humanity, then humanity is me. I am not separate from humanity, I don't say, I am an elite, I am this; I am like the rest of the gang. Not the mafiosa but the ordinary gang. So I see the world as myself, which is the whole. That's simple sir - no, not simple, it is - would that be...

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    ...not with prejudice, opinions, but look at it. You suffer and so does the man in Russia. You are uncertain, so is the man in China. Right? So your consciousness is shared by all humanity, so you are humanity. Right? You are humanity, not Mr Smith, Mr Rao, or something like or other. If that is shown to you, not accepted but showing it logically,...

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    ...through constant repetition of the Mass and so on, so on. And to see the absurdity of it and wipe it out. Then you ask, is it possible to be a light, not only to yourself, because you are the humanity, therefore light to humanity. You follow? I wonder if you - right, sir? I don't think you capture...

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    ...same problems - sorrow, pain, grief, the utter lack of love, fear and so on. We don't seem to have come to grips with it and gone beyond them. We are still living in all this common factor of all humanity. As we said yesterday again that you is the essence of all humanity because you suffer, go through all kinds of miseries, unhappiness,...

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    ...there is no ending to the pattern. Right? What is the cause of all this, of human misery? That is, you are humanity - please see this - you are humanity, your brain has grown through a million years, it is not your brain, it is the common brain of man. Therefore you are the world, and the world is you. You are not Swiss, German, and all that...

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    K: (Laughs) No, sir. If you and I realise that thought is shared by all humanity, then there is no different thoughts. There is no you agreeing, I disagreeing. We will go into it another time.

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    K: desperate hope, desire for some kind of solace? I mean the Maitreya Bodhisattva is the idea that He has relinquished the ultimate enlightenment, and is waiting till all humanity, or part of humanity... that's (laughter)

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    ...He wants some comfort, hope, God, a father figure, or a mother figure, whatever you like. So your consciousness is shared by all of us, by all of us, by all humanity, therefore you are humanity, not some separate British, French - for God's sake! You understand all...

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    JK: Sir, all this really comes down to: can man live, humanity live without conflict? That really basically comes to that. Can we have peace on this earth?

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    K: Then in studying yourself you are studying humanity. Right? You are studying humanity. Will you do that? And then that becomes a side issue.

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    K: No, sir, no. Not 'how', there is no how. First let us see this simple fact, sir: do I, as a human being, and therefore representative of all humanity - I am a human being - right? - and therefore I represent all humanity. Right?

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    ...Holistic, whole. Don't go into something else. Can I see you as a whole being? You understand? Can I see humanity as myself, which is the whole? That's good enough. Can I see humanity as myself? Because humanity is like me, suffering, miserable, confused, agony, terrified, insecure, sorrow-ridden, like another. Right? So in seeing man, humanity, I...

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    ...when it has to function. Right? Now, can such a mind deal with everyday facts of life? You understand? Which means, can it function if you are a Muslim, a Sikh, a Hindu, a Buddhist, can it ever function when there is the conditioning of the mind? Which is, a Hindu, can such a mind function through a Hindu who is conditioned according to his...

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    K: I am saying sir, I am a Hindu, born a Hindu and I am free to choose and therefore I say, I won't be a Hindu, and I will be a Catholic. And I think that is the freedom of choice. From one conditioning I go to another conditioning.

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    I am asking you now, not next day, or later on, but I am asking you now, find out if you are being programmed, as a Filipino, or as a Hindu, or as a Christian, or something else, which is, you are being told from childhood, you are a Filipino, I am a Hindu, she is a Christian, and she is a Hindu or a Brahmin, and he is from South America, Argentina, so you are being programmed.

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    ...conflict, facing insecurity. And the Americans are doing exactly the same thing, so are the Russians. So you are actually the rest of mankind. You are not a Hindu though you like to call yourself a Hindu. That is just your local, provincial, narrow...

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    K: Yes, that's it, that's it. Why am I a Hindu? - if I am, I am not a Hindu, I am not an Indian, I have no nationality, but suppose I call myself a Hindu. What makes me a Hindu?

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    So seeing all this, wars, violence, corruption, a social structure that is totally immoral, division, conflict, suffering and the brutal violence that is spreading throughout the world, seeing all this, one wants to find out, if one is at all really serious, not playing with words, not playing with ideas or speculating about the problem but if one really earnestly enquires into it, which we are going to do, then that enquiry demands on your part an observation which is not prejudged, which is not prejudiced, which is not parochial, which is not Hindu or any other particular race or caste.

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    ...organisation, whether it is democratic or totalitarian or Marxist. Nor through divisions of nationalities. As long as you remain an American, and the speaker remains a Hindu or a Buddhist or Muslim, we'll have no peace on earth. Nor the racial divisions, as the Jew, the Arab, and the Hindu, and so on. Nor culturally. So it's a very important...

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    ...is: can man, you as a human being, radically transform himself? Not into something, not into another conditioning, not being a Hindu, go and become a Catholic, or being a Catholic become a Hindu, which seems so utterly futile, going from one cage or one prison to another prison. When one realises this, what can one do? I wonder if one realises...

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    I see, I perceive, that I should not be a Hindu because one of the reasons for being a Hindu is for security purposes and also it is one of the causes of war - nationalism, tribalism is one of the causes of war. So I see that, I perceive it - sorry - I perceive it to be the truth and therefore I am no longer a Hindu. But whereas if I say, why...

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    JK: I would say once a Hindu has been programmed for the last five thousand years to be a Hindu, or in this country you have been programmed as British, or as a Catholic or as a Protestant. So we are all programmed up to a certain extent.

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    ...it has become mechanical? If I am a Hindu I function as a Hindu, or a Jew, or a Christian, whatever it is, the superficial is so heavily laden - I function on that line, And below that layer which education hasn't touched, or has touched, and therefore the whole content of consciousness is mechanical - you are following? Conditioned, heavily...

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    K: Look sir, there is a war going on between Israel and the Arabs. That is the result of fragmentation, isn't it? And if you are really if you want to live in a world that is so destructive, peacefully, how are you to do it? You must be non-fragmented, mustn't you? You must be neither an Israelite or an Arab, Hindu or a Muslim. Right? Are you?

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    ...nationalism - right? - which is tribalism. You may not agree or, please, quietly listen. Tribalism - right? - which has become glorified nationalism with its flags and so on - the British, the French, the Hindu, the Indians - you follow? - divided, divided, divided. We are saying, one of the causes of war is nationalism. That is obvious. Other...

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    K: Look sir, can you be aware of your fragments? That you are an American, that I am a Hindu, you are a Jew, Communist - you just live in that state. You don't say, 'Well, I know I am a Hindu'. It is only when you are challenged, it is only when, say, 'What are you?', then you say, 'Yes, I am an Indian', or a Hindu, or an Arab.

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    ...Good! At last somebody says yes. You are following not the speaker. You are following the book which is yourself, that you are living in a disorderly way, that you are in perpetual conflict. That conflict expresses itself as ambition, fulfilment, conformity, identification with a person, with a country, with an idea, and never living with the...

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    ...What an easy way out, isn't it? Can I find out what I want to do? And what is it I want to do? Write poems? Paint pictures? Go round the world begging? I want to write a book, paint. I want to write a book: what is my motive for writing a book? To earn a livelihood? So what is my motive which tells me I want to do...

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    ...go into it. Please have patience. And if you are really serious don't just attend one talk and say, I have understood it, or he's talking nonsense, and walk away; you have to listen to the whole, you have to read the whole book. You have to, as the commercial people say, you have to buy the package! Not just one part of it, which may suit you,...

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    Then also the book is telling you a great deal. Right? And can you hear what the book is saying? You understand what I am saying? Hear the song of the book - have you understood? It is telling you something, obviously, this enormous story it is telling you. But you must be capable of hearing it, not only reading it but capable of hearing this...

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    ...security, I am therefore frightened, I don't want to learn. This is what you are all doing. I have found great delight in my writing a book and I know I function from fragmentation but that book gives me fame, money, position and for God's sake keep out. Don't talk to me, don't disturb me. The house is burning - you follow? - but don't disturb...

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    K: So, I say, 'sit quietly.' Then after sitting quietly I talk about this first. I have done this in schools. Talk about this, freedom, authority, beauty, love, you know, all that we have been discussing. Then pick up your book. But you have learned much more here than in the book.

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    ...Near East and here, we are incapable of reading the whole story of mankind which is ourselves. And is it possible for us to read this book which has been handed down generation after generation for many, many millennia, to read the story which we are? Not leave one chapter under unread, but read from the beginning to the end, the whole movement of...

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    ...built about itself - I am somebody. So as long as there is self-centred activity there must be contradiction, therefore there must be disorder. And the book says don't ask how to be not self-centred. Right? Please follow this carefully. When you ask how The book says when you ask how, then you are asking a method, then if you pursue that method it...

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    ...each other this, I am not telling you it is, or it is not, but we are asking, enquiring, exploring, into this question. It is distorted if I have a motive in reading the book and wanting to change what is in the book. Because if the observation has already come to a conclusion that the end of the book must be this, or that there are certain...

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    ...some of you yes. So, I would say now, together we are going to learn the story of man, which is you. I would spend a great deal of time about that, how to read the history of man which is you, the book, the content of that book which is you. So if he can read that book, that story of man which is himself, which is the student, which is the...

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    Narayan: Mr. Feroz Meta is a scientist and has written a book about a couple of years ago, 'The Heart of Religion', which was very well received. He came here last year once and he also knows Dr Rahula, who was here for last year's discussion.

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    ...the mind is prepared to read. And it discovers - please listen to this-it discovers the book is the mind. Right? The book is the consciousness. The book isn't out there on a pedestal for me to read, but the book is this whole content of my consciousness, of your consciousness - greed, envy, this, the other. So - you are following this? The book is...

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    Now, I don't want you to look at the book, I am your teacher, but I want to teach you something entirely different: not the book, not to look out of the window, but I want to teach you something else. Right? Now listen, I'll tell you. I have a book in front of me which you must look at also, but your eyes, your ears, are outside - the lizard, or...

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    K: Away. Then who keeps the - I won't make it complicated for you. So you concentrate on a book and other thoughts come in. Right? Then what do you do?

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    ...(Laughs) Quite right. Of course it does. That is, you want to look out of the window, which is much more fun, and the poor teacher says, look at your book, concentrate on your book. Right? Now what happens? Suppose I am your teacher - I am not, fortunately (laughter) - I am your teacher, and you are looking out of that window, or looking at that...

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    So I feel if we could from the beginning use the word 'religion' in the simplest way. That is, the gathering of all energy so that there is total attention, and in that quality of attention the immeasurable comes into being. Because as we said the other day, the measurable is the mechanical. Which the west has cultivated, made marvellous,...

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    K: He says, I understand it but I don't realise it. When you use the word 'understand' what do you mean by that word? Intellectually, verbally understand.

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    ...am constantly moving, constantly offering opinions, judgements, evaluation. So I am going to learn. I am going to learn what it means to apprehend - apprehend means to take hold, what is meant by the 'whole' - so I have to understand the word first. The word means sanity, health, rational, clear thinking, and also that word means holy - H-O-L-Y -...

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    ...that.' But if he knows how to observe greed, then there is only that feeling. There is not the other non-greed. To observe it means one has to find out if the word 'greed' brings the feeling, or the feeling exists apart from the word. This is really important to find out. Do I exist apart from the word, the name, the form, this, that and the...

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    ...I would like to go back to education, not this is part of it. Wait a minute. Doesn't education mean to learn? The word 'school' means a place where you are learning. That's the meaning of that word 'school'. Now here is a school and we are learning, I am learning and you are learning. We are trying to learn or trying to find out what is the depth...

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    ...here. We are going to communicate with each other. 'Communicate' means to build together, to think together, to partake together, to create together. That is the meaning of that word 'communicate'. And so we are going to learn. That is, there is no teacher and the taught, because that implies you, the taught, be informed, and the speaker teaches....

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    ...To be free from comparison, from becoming. Here in this country they have used the word 'mantra' a great deal. The meaning of that word in Sanskrit, the root meaning of that word is consider not becoming, think about it, go into it. And also the word 'mantra' means to put away all self-centred activity. The depth of that statement, very few...

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    K: Wait, sir. I understand. To you that word 'intelligence' has certain associations. If I use the word 'god' is watching, you would object to that because you have other associations with that word.

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    To be aware of this conditioning of aggression: the very word that one uses, you may say it very gently but there is a kick behind it, there is an assertive, dominant, compulsive action, which becomes very crude when it becomes violent. Now that is our conditioning. That conditioning of aggression, whether one has derived it from the animal or one...

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    So one must be aware of the nature of the word, and whether that word is creating the fear. Or, as we have explained, the many factors of fear, can one observe it without the word? Like observing a tree, this oak tree, to look at it without the word, because when you are observing if the word comes in you are really actually not observing. And to...

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    ...look at it, observe it. To observe is one of the most difficult things to do. To observe without any direction, without any motive, without any word, just to observe that tree, for example, without being caught in the word 'tree', and all the implications of that word. If we are so able to observe ourselves and the world in which we live without...

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    ...their leaves, flutter in the wind, the beauty of the light on the leaf, have you ever watched it? So can you watch a tree, or the new moon, or the single star in the heavens, without the word, 'the moon', 'the star', 'the sky', without the word? Because the word is not the actual star, the actual moon. So can you put aside the word and look?...

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    ...into yourself. That's why it is important from the very beginning to find out for yourself the manner of observation. To look at a thing, at your wife, at your husband, at your children or the stars, to look without the word. Do you understand? When you look at a tree, the word 'tree' is a distraction which prevents you looking. You have...

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    ...Wait sir, I am going into it, watch it in yourself sir. In the process of recognition of that feeling through a word, the mind has strengthened that feeling, it rationalises, or does something, all kinds of things it does. Now can the mind look at that feeling without the word? You understand sir? By looking at it with the word I have recognised...

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    K: You are saying, are you, madam, that resistance is a form of security. Is it? I am not saying it is not - is it? I don't want to reduce it to one word - you follow what I mean? - it is much too explosive thing, this - you can't just say that one word explains everything.

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    ...is pleasure love? And also why has sex such significance in our life? Probably we have nothing else. Probably in every other field we are mechanical. We have nothing original in ourselves, there is nothing creative, not in the sense of producing pictures and songs, poems, that is a very superficial part of that which is really a sense of...

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    ...an important part in our lives? I'm not saying it is right or wrong - please - do you understand? We are now enquiring - there is no assertion - sex should be, should not be, pleasure should be, should not be and all that - we are just enquiring. Why does pleasure in every way, in every activity of our life, play such an immense role? And...

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    K: Yes, so you see this thing - sex - has become, I don't know, of such enormous importance right through the world now. In Asia they cover it up. They don't talk about it. If you talk about sex it is something wrong. Here you talk endlessly about it. But there you don't, you know, certain things you don't talk about. You talk about it in the...

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    K: Right. Therefore, I have answered that question before, this morning. I said is love pleasure? We have associated love with sex, because sex has become pleasure. Right? Right, sir?

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    ...emphasising or giving freedom from suppression. You know all that business going on in the world - and what has love to do with it? And what does it mean, all this - love, sex, pleasure and chastity? Because please don't forget that word or the meaning of that word for which man has given such great importance - to lead a life of chastity. So...

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    ...But here it is quite accepted. There the tradition is still strong, and here all that has gone except this demand. Why? Why has man made of this thing called sex such an extraordinarily important thing in life? Have you ever asked? Volumes are written about it, it is one of the best sellers - why? Why has man specially in this world, in the...

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    ...often, so that the dog enjoys himself, runs about. In the same way doubt must be kept on a leash and also allowed, take away the leash, so the mind is - you know, the mind being your heart, your brain, your emotions, everything active, not just directed in one direction which is sex, sex, sex.

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    ...is desire? Why religions throughout the world have said be without it, always associated with sex. Sanyasi are supposed to be chaste, no sex, but they are burning inside, and so they suppress and go through all the agonies of it. Now we go together, please together, we are going to go into this question of desire. You have to pay a little...

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    K: Ah, the question is: if there is love, the questioner says mustn't there be sex? Is that it? If there is love, mustn't there be sex? What do you say? (laughs) Now, who is going to tell you? If I say - 'if' underlined a thousand times - love cannot have sex - right? - if I were silly enough to say that, what will you do?

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    ...one must ask the question: what is love? And why is it associated with sex? And when it is not, with the sublime, which is the division between the mundane love and the spiritual love. And so one asks why is it that sex has become so important in life? Right? Don't deny it. Don't say it's not important. Pick up any magazine, any book, look at...

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    ...I am asking you: do you actually in your heart, in your brain, see the fact of what separation does? I get married, all the sex and all that. And I am ambitious, very, or aggressive, I want to get on, make money - right? Have a good job, good car; I want to advance; and my wife also wants to do the same thing in a different direction. Right? So we...

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    3rd Question: What is the reason - we'll have to stop after this question - what is the reason for the grievances that sex has brought to the world in spite of the fact that it is the greatest energy of man? All right, sir, let's go at it. Have you noticed throughout the world, and therefore in your own life, how sex has become extraordinarily...

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    ...energy because in that there is fear. Energy comes only when you completely lose yourself, when there is total absence of yourself. And that takes place when you have sex - for a second everything comes - ends. And you have the pleasure of it. Then thought picks it up - images, wanting it more and more and more, repetition, therefore that becomes...

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    K: Now am I capable of it? Have I got the energy, because my wife wants sex, I don't want it, or I enjoy sex, I go through all kinds of miseries, and at the end of the day I've hardly I crawl into bed. And you say I must have energy. So I must realise relationship is the greatest importance.

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    K: I am not doing my job properly, I drank too much, or sex too much, and my god, I am losing - you follow? - so there is this cycle of fear set going.

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    ...out the implication of time. This is important because time and thought are the root of fear. And fear cannot end or fade away or be dissipated if we do not understand the nature of time and the nature of thought, which are the roots of all fear.

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    ...can that violence end? Will that ending take time? Do you understand my question? I am talking to you. Will you take time to end violence? So you have to enquire, if you are serious, what is the nature of time? Not only by the clock on the wall but also time as the past, the present and the future. That is the whole movement of time, a series of...

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    ...in the present, and the future is what is now. So we said all time is contained in the present. If one could really deeply go into that question, the nature of time, the nature of thought and time is thought; we talked about that quite considerably. And if all the present, if all time is contained in the now, then what is change, is there any...

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    ...you would be horrified, wouldn't you? Right? You understand what I am saying? Hope is time. So you have to investigate the nature of time and realise that your brain and your mind and your heart, which are one, are functioning, conditioned in time. And therefore you are asking something totally different. You are asking the brain, the mind to...

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    So we have to enquire very, very deeply into the nature of time, which we did during the last few talks. And also we went very deeply into the nature of thinking. So can all that come to an end? Or is it a gradual process? You understand? If it is a gradual process, the very gradualness is time. So it cannot be gradual - right? It cannot be...

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    ...be that - right? We are understanding each other? So there is time outside, by the clock; time inwardly, time between now and death. Right? Now we are going to enquire much more deeply into the nature of time.

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    ...therefore we are slave to time. Which is, I must achieve something, I must become something, therefore we are creating time. But if you understand the nature of time and remain totally with 'what is' - I am jealous, envious. Let me say I am envious. Don't try to transform it into something else. Remain with that envy and look at it, observe it, as...

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    ...it's no fun. It just becomes a lot of words without much meaning. But if you see that time is a dangerous factor in human life, and that time distorts action, and so we are going into something, if you understand the nature of time fully because all our thinking is based on time. Time is movement, isn't it? Right? From here to there, or...

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    ...become noble, I don't achieve enlightenment if I practise, if I strive, if I deny this and control my - and so on, which is gradation in achievement. So one has to understand the nature of time. Time, as we said, essentially means to divide, break. Time implies a beginning and an ending. So we are going to talk over together the nature of fear,...

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    So time, thought. I have understood more or less the nature of time - time externally, time inwardly, psychologically: I will be, I am not, I will be, or I should be, whereas I am not. The 'should be' is the movement of time. Right? I wonder if you are This is important, you are following all this?

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    ...Wait sir. We said that perception is out of time: seeing immediately the whole nature of time. Which is to have, to use a good old word, to have an insight into the nature of time. If you have that insight into the nature of time - not you - if there is an insight into the nature of time the very brain cells which are part of time break down. The...

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    ...have got ten minutes more. Time is an extraordinary thing! (Laughter) To understand time, because time is also thought, so if we understand the nature of thought we shall understand the nature of time. And if there is an ending to thought, that is real meditation, there is an ending to time - not physical time, but where time must have a stop. And...

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    ...from which thought begins. From the very beginning, man's very beginning, that's the process. So, one not only has to enquire into the nature of time, but also one has to find out if time has come to an end, if there is a stop to time. This has been a tremendous problem - you...

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    ...major factor of fear, and also thought. You cannot stop physical time. When you begin to understand the nature of time inwardly, the becoming, and not becoming, and understand the whole movement of thought - understand it, not suppress it, deny it, how am I to control thought. Those are all absurd questions, because who is the controller? The...

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    ...We are saying that thought and time are the root of fear. We explained somewhat. You can work it out for yourself, the nature of time. Time is division - as yesterday, today and tomorrow. Time of something that has happened which was painful a week ago and might happen again. The remembrance of the past projecting into the future, and be afraid of...

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    ...enclosed, resisting, incapable of being not only free within itself but also go beyond itself? So we must be clear what we are talking about. A mind that is conditioned, can such a mind free itself? I think that would be a simple way of putting it. Would you agree to that,...

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    ...If you have a belief, that belief is going to direct your investigation. So the mind - and please do it as we are talking - your mind must be free to explore. And is your mind free? Obviously not. Because if it was free you would already be investigating. So, if I may point out, it is very important in our investigation whether it is possible for...

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    ...known. That is what actually is going to happen - when the brain dies, everything that it has known comes to an end. Can the mind free itself from the known every day and live in that freedom, working in the field of the known? You have understood? And that is the real meditation - which we will talk about tomorrow. So, can the mind die to the...

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    ...historically. And seeing the result and the cause, can the mind free itself from those conditioning factors that separate man from man, so that he lives totally in peace with each other, so that there is no battle between you and me, so that we can live in a world where there is no starvation, no wars, no killing each other? And that is only...

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    ...certain systems, certain beliefs, then you will be free. Right? You're following all this? So, first you posit that there is a superior outer force or agency that will help you to be free, that will make the mind free if you do these things - right? 'If you do these things' is a system, which is going to condition you, that's what has happened....

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    Now, can the mind free itself from its conditioning? Not only the habits it has cultivated, certain intellectual, emotional, opinions, judgements, you follow, the attitudes, the values, can the mind free itself of all this conditioning? Which means, can the mind be completely free of thought? Go easy, don't jump on me. Because if this is not...

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    ...authorities, and so on - your whole mind is conditioned - as an Indian mind, the Russian mind, the Maoist mind, and so on - it's conditioned. Can the mind free itself from that conditioning? If you say, 'Yes, it can', how do you know? Or if you say, 'It is not possible', then you have blocked...

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    K: Is a mind free that is capable of choice? Or is a mind that is not free, that chooses? Because choice implies between this and that. Obviously. Now which means the mind doesn't see clearly and therefore there is choice. The choice exists when there is confusion. A mind that sees clearly, there is no choice. It is doing. I think this is where we...

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    So is your mind free to observe, to observe the world and observe yourself? And you cannot observe if you are saying, 'This is right and this is wrong', 'I must control, I must suppress, I must obey, I must disobey'. You follow? All that is going on, you are not free to learn. If you are saying, 'I must live a permissive life', then you are not...

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    ...mind is conditioned, and any projection from that conditioned mind creates further confusion, further misery, further conflict. Right? So the question then is: can the mind free itself from its conditioning?

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    ...Security then becomes a habit. So I am saying, can the mind free itself from habit? And what do you mean by habit? Habit means repetition - pleasurable, non-pleasurable, avoidance of pain, it becomes another habit, as pursuit of pleasure becomes another habit. So I say, can the mind free itself from habit? Is it at all possible? And if it is...

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    So we are asking: can such a mind free itself from its conditioning? That's the basic question: can the mind, which was born in India, with all the superstitions, you know all that business, can that mind free itself from that? Obviously it can.

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    K: Yes, but how has it come? Why have human beings, wherever they live, why are they conditioned by, through this measurement. I want, one wants to find out what is the source of this measurement. You follow, sir?

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    K: Yes, but you see, if I have an insight into measurement, that very insight not only banishes all movement, measurement, there is a different order.

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    So, is it possible - please enquire - is it possible to live without comparison, without measurement? This is a tremendously complicated question. Because the word 'better' is measurement. The word 'more' is measurement. Self-improvement is measurement. So find out whether it is possible to live without measurement, which means without comparison....

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    ...limited. We talked about it considerably. And it's also I don't want to make it one doesn't make it too complex. Greed, measurement, comparison - 'I am this, I will be that', which is measurement - all that implies psychological time. That is the illusion in which we live. We are questioning the reality of that. There is only 'what is'. There is...

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    K: So, they use measurement to go beyond measurement. And therefore they could never go beyond it. They were caught in an illusion of some other kind, but it is still the product of thought. I don't know if I'm conveying it?

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    So, the Eastern world has also said in the ancient days, measurement is illusion. To discover the immeasurable there must be no measurement. I don't know if you've gone - naturally. But they employed thought to achieve the immeasurable: you must control, you must meditate, you must sacrifice, you must behave - all pattern laid down through...

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    ...Find out, is that so? You see, sir, mutation implies non-movement of the activities of the self. Which means all measurement as comparison, measurement of the more - you understand? - the more, the less, the desire to fulfil - all that is movement in measurement. So, a mind that has no measurement of any kind, that doesn't say, 'I am ignorant, I...

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    K: You see sir, I don't know if you want to go into it now, or if it is the right occasion: from ancient Greece, you must know, measurement was necessary to them. Measurement. And the whole of western civilisation is based on measurement, which is thought.

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    As we were saying, the culture of the Western civilisation is based on thought, on measurement. And from that measurement has grown the whole technological world, and from that measurement the art of war. And there too religion is a matter of belief, acceptance, propaganda, saviours, and so on. Observing this phenomenon, both in the East and in...

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    ...The word 'meditation' means to ponder over, to think over, to consider, to probe, to investigate, to look - according to the dictionary. And the word 'meditation' also means measurement, to measure. I believe in Sanskrit, 'm' is to measure. And also it has another meaning, that's not my business. So meditation, as it is said in the dictionary, a...

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    ...meditation means to think, to ponder, to weigh, and also it means to measure. That is, measurement: I am this, I must be that. I am comparing myself with you, who are clever, beautiful, lovely, and I am not, that is measurement. Following an example is a measurement. Following the ideal is a measurement. Wherever there is comparison...

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    K: So the language itself is involved in measurement. Now, one has to find out, shouldn't one, I'm just asking, what is the source of this measurement, why has man employed this, or as a means of living? You follow all my questions, sir?

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    ...all our activities, cultural, mechanistic, technological is based on that. Perhaps I could digress a little bit here to point out a rather interesting fact that to the Ancient Greeks thought as measurement was one of the factors of their philosophy and action - measurement. And measurement became necessary mathematically and technologically in the...

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    K: Better is measurement, what I should be. And so 'what I should be' is an avoidance of what I am. So that creates a conflict.

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    K: No. What is measurement, to measure? I measure a piece of cloth, or measure the height of the house, measure the distance from here to a certain place and so on. Measurement means comparison. Right sir?

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    Now we are asking: is there psychologically an opposite to 'what is'? Right? I am violent. Why does the thought create the opposite? The fact is I am violent, the fact is I am anxious, the fact is I am greedy, envious, lonely, those are facts. The opposite is a non-fact. Right? Do we accept that? What matters is not there should be freedom from...

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    Thought has created the opposite, not the fact but the opposite. That is: I am unhappy but I have known happiness at some period and the remembrance of that is a contradiction to 'what is' - you are following this? Yes? I wonder. So thought has created the opposite which is non-fact. What is fact is what is going on, what is happening. The fact is...

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    ...completely now and never again, which means a terrible statement to accept. I wonder if you see that. Because it takes away from you every sense of hope, which means you have to face actually 'what is', and not try to cultivate its opposite. Do you understand now? So you are now confronted with actually what is going on. And, as I said, if you can...

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    ...word. He was horrified. He said, 'That is an old fashioned word, don't use that word'. But one likes that good word. (Laughs) So, what is goodness? It is not the opposite of that which is bad. If it is the opposite of that which is bad then goodness has its roots in badness. I don't know if one realises this. Anything that has an opposite must...

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    ...be very simple about this. Is there an opposite, except man, woman, darkness, light, tall, short, fair hair, dark hair, the tree - differences - night and day. And is there an opposite to goodness? If it has an opposite it is not good. Right? I wonder if you see that. Goodness, if it has an opposite, then that goodness must be born out of the...

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    ...the only factor, isn't it? When I say, 'I must not be angry', that's a conclusion, that's an abstraction. Right? But the factor is I'm angry. If I know how to resolve that anger, its opposite wouldn't arise. Are we meeting each other? Right, sir? Are we meeting each other? Oh, no. I am angry. Now can I solve that anger without resorting to its...

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    ...to be this but I am not that. I'd like to be happy and I am not that. I am angry and I would like not to be angry, and so on, so on, so on. Why is there - please listen - why is there an opposite at all? You understand my question? Do you understand my question? I am asking you, if I may most respectfully, why is there an opposite? Why have we...

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    ...We are going into it, sir, don't. We are examining it, please, have some patience. I am asking, is there an opposite to attachment, or has the mind invented the opposite because it does not know what to do with 'what is'? I am attached, I don't know what to do with it, I am caught in it, I am in despair with it, and I say to myself, 'I will be...

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    Now, so we can proceed to enquire, after clearing the ground accurately, with the question: is there something, an energy which is totally different - not the opposite, because the opposite of the energy of thought is still its own opposite, is still the movement of thought. Therefore we are using purposely a word that is totally different.

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    So, we are questioning, you and I, whether there is an opposite psychologically, anything at all. There is violence - right? - we are angry, we hate, we dislike. That is a fact. But to invent a non-fact like non-violence, you must like people, and so on and so on, is just unreal - right? - therefore there is only the fact, and fact has no...

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    K: (Repeating) There has to be an opposite otherwise it wouldn't exist. Aristotle. He is quoting Aristotle. Aristotle apparently, according to him, has said, opposite must exist, otherwise 'what is' is non-existent. Listen to it carefully, please. The opposite must exist otherwise 'what is' is non-existent. I am attached, and the opposite is...

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    So as long as we have an opposite there cannot be freedom. Goodness is totally unrelated to that which is evil, which is bad - in quotes 'bad'. As long as we are violent, to have the opposite which is non-violent, creates a conflict, and the non-violence is born out of violence. The idea of non-violence is the outcome of being aggressive,...

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    Now are you free of the opposite? You understand? Are you free at the end of this talk, are you free of it? Never enter into the field of the opposite. Come on, sir.

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    ...there is no choice, you go straight. Choice only exists when there is confusion. And where there is confusion there must be conflict. So when you are observing the fact there is no confusion, no choice, no opposite. You see the beauty of this, sirs, do you? This is logical, you follow, this is not something that you have to think about, it is so....

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    ...attachment there is fear, in attachment there is jealousy, there is bitterness, there is anger, hatred. Haven't you noticed all this? No? And I also see that mankind has made an opposite, that is, be detached. Now please follow this - is there an opposite at all to attachment? There is an opposite with man and woman, darkness and light, I am not...

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    K: Of course, of course. Let's use that word for the moment for our convenience, in our dialogue. There is this absolute stillness and in that stillness or from that stillness there is a movement and that movement is everlastingly new. And what is the relationship of that mind to the universe?

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    Krishnamurti: As we say, sir, can thought in its movement, or thought is movement, in that movement is there harmony? If there is, then it has relationship with the other. If there is no harmony and therefore it is contradiction, change, and all the rest of it - thought, then it has no relationship with the other.

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    ...see in the mirror very clearly. We are always acting in a particular direction - success, you know all the rest of it, I don't have to go into details. So can you observe without any movement? - the movement being thought looking. I wonder if you see that. You see, when you look at anything, doesn't matter what it is, thought is looking. Have you...

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    ...I only know I don't know it. I only know the fact that when the past meets the present and continues, it is one of the factors of time, movement, bondage, all the fear, and so on. If, when there is the past meeting the present, and says yes, I am fully aware of this, completely aware of this movement, then it stops. Then I meet you as though for...

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    We are asking, and I think it is rather an important question to go into, if you are willing, whether there is an action, there is a living, there is a movement, which is not from the known. That is, is there a creation from a mind that is not burdened from all the turmoils of life, from all the social pressures, economic and so on, is there a...

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    ...that conditioning is the result of time. Can the mind observe it, live with it without any movement away from it? You can only live with it totally if you do not want to go beyond it, escape from it, change it. And the mind will find it tremendously difficult to live with 'what is'. Either it becomes neurotic, as it generally does, psychologically...

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    ...You come along and say, look that goes nowhere, go south, or east, or west. The very movement of moving away from north to south, in that second, moving, in that movement the cells of the brain have changed, because it has been accustomed to going there - keep it simple.

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    ...place, what is actually happening - not all the time, but say now. How can we go forward if we're not aware or know, recognise, cognisant, conscious of what is the movement in our relationship, whether it's that movement is distorted, confused, wobbly and so on, so on, so on. See how difficult it...

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    ...says, minimise the thing, don't be everlastingly greedy - silly. So what has happened? I am, but I will be. You understand? I am violent, I will be non-violent. That is a movement in time. And in that movement I am still violent. I don't know if you understand. It is a dialogue between us,...

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    K: Ah, no, no, no, no, there is no You have not - forgive me for repeating - I am afraid you haven't understood. I said insight is not a movement. It is direct perception in which there is no movement.

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    ...which may be sacred. You understand? So the mind must clearly understand what time is. All this is meditation - you understand? - not just one part, the whole of this morning's talk is the movement in meditation. What is time - apart from the chronological time? Time is movement, from here to there, psychologically, as well as physically from here...

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    K: No sir, just look. Do you listen to that movement of that river totally? Just do it sir. Don't speculate. Listen to that river, stream, and find out if you are listening completely, without any movement in any direction, only there. Then what do you say, when you, having listened, what takes place?

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    ...in despair? Obviously not, because if I am in despair or depressed, I'm still moving in the same field. So all that has stopped. Realising that I cannot possibly do anything, any movement, what takes place in my mind? You follow, sir, what I'm asking? Is that right? I think that's fairly logical. I realise I cannot do a thing. Right? So what has...

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    ...which means all authority, then you have tremendous energy. With that energy you can begin to enquire what actually takes place when you have not totally resolved the structure and the nature of the self - the self being time and therefore movement and therefore division - right? - the 'me' and the 'not me', and hence conflict. Now what happens to...

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    ...One moment. I understand. I understand your question. First let me finish with this. Do you observe, are you aware of this whole movement? Or you are only partially aware of it, and therefore you say, 'How am I to get over it?' When there is a partial awareness of this movement then the reaction is, 'Tell me how to get over it'. Then the 'how'...

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    K: I wonder what he meant by that, humanising. Instead of living in abstractions, and theories, and complexity of ideations and so on, the technological world is bringing them to earth.

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    ...there is this tremendous energy to answer that question: why is there this loneliness? Because I have rejected other ideas - you follow? - suppositions, theories, that I have inherited, it is instinct. All that means nothing to me. It is 'what is'. So why am I lonely - not I - why is there this loneliness which every human being, if he is at all...

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    ...you, as a human being living on this earth, seeing all this is happening, what can you do? Please, ask this question. What is your action? Not your theories - the Indians are pretty good at theories. Right? You are very good in explanations, analysis, in finding out the cause and there you leave it, which has nothing whatsoever to do with your...

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    Now, the scientists might say yes, psychology is the science with which we try to look inwardly, to investigate the mind. And they say various people have had theories such as Freud, and Jung and other people - I don't know all of them. Now we'll have to make it clear why it has no point to make these theories.

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    K: Look, please, this is just theories. Are you actually doing it or just throwing out words hoping that it will be correct? You see if I...

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    K: No, you have misunderstood. Communists are full of theories and putting those theories into practice and shaping man according to a theory. I am not talking about that, leave that for the moment. I am sorry I brought it in. To look at myself, I can only see myself as a whole when I am actually the rest of mankind.

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    K: Madame, I am fed up with theories, that has been filling my mind with theories, with speculations, that has been the game of tradition. I said all that is part of suffering. I don't want to play with words, with theories.

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    K: No, no, sir, you are all this is just ideas, theories, I am talking of reality, what is going on. What shall I do? You are in that position.

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    To have an insight into that means to see the whole movement, the cause and the image and therefore the very perception of it ends the image. Do you understand this? No? No?

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    K: That's an image, drop it, don't take it too (laughs). You understand my question? Answer my question: if you are the image - right? - what has happened? Is the hurt there? Is the conflict there between the 'I' and the image? You follow? What takes place? Before, there was an illusion - right? - that me is different from the image, but suddenly...

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    K: Am I related to my wife? Or am I related to my wife according to the image I have built about her? And I am responsible for that image. Do you follow, sir? (Laughs)

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    ...to be attached to a human being. What are you attached to when you are attached to a human being? You are attached to the image that you have created about that human being, not to the person but to the image that you have about her or him. Please, this is so...

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    K: Which is all the movement of thought, isn't it? No? So thought as movement, which is time, put this image, created this image. It does it because it wants to protect itself. Right? Am I inventing or fabricating this, or is this actual?

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    ...what happens when there is this duality? I look at my wife, at my husband, at my friend. I look at my wife with the image which I have built through years of pleasure, pain, insult, nagging, brutality, angers, all the image I have built about her or him. The image is the observer. You are following this? The image is the observer, and the thing...

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    ...your life anyhow. If you are not interested I am sorry for you. What is the thing that is hurt? Is it your psyche, is it your - we are observing, we are not analysing, observing - psyche, or basically the image that you have built about yourself? You understand my question? The image one has built about oneself; I might build an image about...

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    K: If I have no image, the other person has no image at all. How inaccurate that is! Because I am blind therefore you are also blind. Don't, please. This is so illogical. Do think clearly. Let's go into this. We go back and Too bad.

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    ...see, one observes - observation - one observes that one is hurt. One is hurt because basically one has an image about oneself. And that image has been built through the various forms of culture, education, civilisation, tradition, nationality, economic condition, social injustice. That image is the past and therefore knowledge. Thought, whether it...

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    ...Now, what is hurt? Please examine what is hurt and who is hurt. I say I am hurt. When you call me a fool, I am hurt. When you say anything that is contrary to what I think, or I have an image about myself and that image gets hurt. Right, do you see this? Actually see it, please for your own sake, just observe it. Obviously each one has an image...

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    K: I want to find out why I create the image about my wife - if I have one. Is it habit? Is it convenient? Is it immemorial conditioning? Is it traditional that I do this, brought over from the genes and so on and so on, that instinctively I make an image about you?

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    ...can see it without the word: when you see the thing called rose, can you look at that flower without naming it? You understand, sir? Test it out. Then find out if you have an image about a person. Now wait a minute. You have an image about me, haven't you? Because the papers write about it, or some silly book. You follow? You have an image about...

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    K: We are going to find out whether it is possible to be free of this image, and whether it is worthwhile to be free of this image, and what does it mean to be free of the image.

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    K: Now, now. Not when you are hurt. Now I am asking. You have an image, sir, don't let's beat round the bush. It is so simple.

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    K: I am inadequate - I have no fear. I have fear because I have an image that I should be adequate. But I have no image, I am inadequate. Now what tells me I am inadequate? Please, no, don't shrug it off - what tells me I am inadequate?

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    ...kinds of pain, physical and psychological. Now, the psychological pain, the agony, the acute suffering - is that what one is concerned with? Or the physical pain, a certain incurable disease, like cancer. How do we meet this? There are various drugs and so on to alleviate physical pain. And one can put up with it. I'm sure most of us have...

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    K: Yes, that is the same - escape, in time it will pass, endure it, accept it. (Laughs) But you don't accept physical pain!

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    ...one has had a month ago. Thought thinks about the future of that pain and hopes it will not occur again. You follow? So thought is responsible for the fear that might happen, take place tomorrow because I have known physical pain. So thought is responsible for fear, physical fear. Right? Look, you have had a toothache, haven't you, and you have...

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    ...the body, a total harmony, which we have not. And pain, physical pain, has also its importance, not as a punishment and therefore 'give us more punishment so as to become more pure' which is absurd, but it is an indication that we are preventing the normal intelligence of the body from functioning. And to be attentive of all that and not come to...

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    ...we have to understand this: what is suffering, if we are to go into this question of death, as we are going to this morning. Is suffering necessary? I am not talking about physical pain. One has physical pain often but to see that pain doesn't distort the mind in action, that pain doesn't make the mind neurotic. So one has to understand not only...

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    So thought has seen there has been physical pain last week, it has been registered in the brain - please listen carefully to this - one has had pain last week, it has been registered, which is recorded as memory, and then thought says, 'I hope I will not have that pain again tomorrow.' Right? You are following this? This is a common, everyday...

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    When we suffer there is intense pain, not only physical pain, but the subjective, psychic, inward pain. That pain acts on the nerves, our whole thinking is a process of shrinking. And it awakens us to a sense of desperate loneliness. We are saying facts, not imaginative statements: facts. What is. And that sense of shock, sense of loneliness,...

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    ...create anxiety. You follow this? Do you understand this, sir, what I am saying? Can you observe, be attentive of your physical pain without the 'me' as the centre which doesn't want pain, or is afraid of having pain when the pain has come to an end again? You are following all this? What is the place of pain in life? Is it a reminder that you are...

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    K: You have said that, sir. Pleasant sensations, avoiding pain, work, seeking something more and more, physical pain, and what else?

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    ...talk about that. You understand my question? I have a toothache - one has a toothache. That's a physical fact and you know it instantly. Right? That is, immediately you know that there is a physical pain. And you act, if you can, immediately because the pain is intolerable and you act. Right? Now when we say we have pain, psychological, inward,...

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    ...is it possible to register only that which is absolutely necessary, and not register anything else? Look: take a very simple thing. Most of us have had pain, physical pain of some sort or another. And that pain is registered because my brain says I must be very careful not to have that pain again tomorrow, or a week later, because physical pain is...

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    ...No, sir, it's not the difficulty. Free of, in the sense, if you have a pain, physical pain, what do you do - you try to get rid of it, don't you? By taking a pill or going to a doctor or dentist, whatever it is. So in the same way, psychologically dependence breeds pain. Do you see that? Don't say what do you mean by seeing, we've been though all...

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    ...intellectually, but actually realise the sorrow that one has had, or that one is having, and the sorrow of the whole world. Physical pain one can understand, do something about it, and perhaps not register it, not record it. I do not know if you have ever tried that. You may have had pain last week and finished with that pain when that pain is...

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    One has often physical pain in different forms. Or one may have serious sickness, or crippled, and that sickness, that disease, and so on, not to allow all that to interfere with the freedom, with the freshness of the mind. That requires tremendous awareness, watchfulness to say physical pain not to be registered - you understand? -...

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    ...that mean can only the free mind attend. I didn't say that. No but please listen to what... At the moment of pain - look: I had pain last week, physical pain, very bad toothache - I didn't have it but I am imagining - very bad toothache, what do I do? I go to the dentist and he does something and that physical pain has left a mark, which is the...

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    ...in a certain way. And another as a German, or comes from India, it doesn't matter, America. Time, the climate, the food, the language, the television, all those, religion, the superstitions, all that has made him what he is, and more. What is the common factor in all human beings who are conditioned? You follow what I am...

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    K: So you are really hungry, you want some food: who is going to supply you the food? Metaphorically speaking. I am not giving you food, you are not hungry, but in a different sense. Who is giving you the food that you want?

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    K: Ah, no, no, no, no. We're talking not where the food is, but we are saying 'hunger'. You know when you're hungry. But why don't you also know why should somebody tell you to look at a flower?

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    ...after tomorrow morning. But let's go into this question: what is it we are all wanting? More money, if you have not money? Obviously one must have more money if you haven't got it, that gives us food, clothes and shelter. Apart from that, and if it is possible that all human beings right throughout the world have enough clothes, food and shelter,...

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    K: Ah, no. When you eat, you are eating because you are hungry. The stomach receives the food, there is no idea of receiving the food. So can you listen - listen - without the idea of receiving, or accepting, or denying, or arguing, just listen to a statement? It may be false, it may be true, but just listen to it. Can you do it?

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    K: Mustn't you have food and clothes and shelter? You have clothes, you have food. Millions of people haven't got food, clothes. Why is it?

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    K: To be secure (laughs) means to have food, clothes, shelter and money. Right? Food, clothes, shelter, house, a room, and some money. If that is assured you are physically secure. Right?

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    K: Yes, partly. One must have food and clothes and shelter. That's an absolute essential, otherwise you four wouldn't be sitting here.

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    K: And from whom are you going to get the food? From the guru? From your books? From your culture? From some politician? Where are you going to get the food?

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    ...as two friends about the problem of being conditioned. Don't forget, please, don't go off to something else. Our minds are conditioned by our culture, by our race, by our climate, by our food, by our beliefs, and so on, so on. We are conditioned, our minds are conditioned through education, through experience, through knowledge and so on. And the...

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    K: Ah, no, no, no, no. We're talking not where the food is, but we are saying 'hunger'. You know when you're hungry. But why don't you also know why should somebody tell you to look at a flower?

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    K: So unless we understand disorder, the nature of disorder, the structure of disorder, we can never find out what is order. Out of the understanding of disorder comes order. Not first seek order, and then impose that order on disorder. I don't know if I make myself clear.

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    K: I don't know if I am making my question clear. I can have order in myself, by careful observation, self-study, self-investigation, and understand the nature of disorder, and the very understanding, the very insight of it dispels that disorder. And that's one level of order.

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    ...through negation; not start with the positive, that is, we know what order is, which is a blueprint laid down by somebody. So, we say order can only come into being when we have understood the nature of disorder. When we have understood the nature of disorder - politically, religiously, in the family, in ourselves, economically, socially, the...

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    And what is the nature of disorder? Not what is order, because a confused mind can invent order and say, 'That is order.' A brain that is caught in illusions, as most people are, then it will create its own order out of confusion - right? So what is the nature of disorder? Why do we say there must be order and then be in disorder? You understand?...

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    K: When you are not absorbed totally in what you are doing, then there is disorder. Look at the varieties of opinions we are going to have. Listen to it, listen, when you have varieties of opinions, that is the very nature of disorder: so opinion is disorder. No?

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    So order comes naturally, sweetly, without your invitation, when you understand the structure and the nature of disorder. Right? Disorder. As we said, belief is a complete disorder and yet you will go on. You hear the truth of this, and you will go on with your belief, because to you that has become extraordinarily important, in that you take...

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    So order is only possible when we understand the nature of disorder. And the nature of disorder can be totally wiped out. If I am quarrelling with my wife, or the wife is quarrelling with me, I find out why we are quarrelling. If we like to quarrel, that's a different matter, but if want to stop quarrelling we say, 'Let's talk about it, let's see...

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    What is disorder? Because where there is disorder, there can be no love, where there is fear there is no love, where there is mere search for the continuity of pleasure love cannot possibly exist. So one has to enquire, if you are at all serious and very, very honest: what is the nature of disorder, why we live in such disorder.

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    ...actually in one's life, we must find out not what is order, but what is disorder. Because if one understands the nature of disorder, really, from that comprehension, from that insight, from the total holistic view of disorder, then from that arises order. You understand? It is not that one seeks order, then you follow a blue print, then you look...

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    ...order on disorder, in which there is contradiction and a discipline, a suppression - you follow - all that follows. All right? So I must find out what is disorder, what causes disorder, what is the nature of disorder. What do you think is...

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    ...understand the difference? Problems exist. I have a toothache, I have to go to the doctor. Problems of tax, follow? Problems exist. But if my brain is free of problems, then I can deal with those problems easily. But if my brain is trained, conditioned to deal with problems, I increase problems. Right? I wonder if you see...

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    ...arise, how can I meet them? I only meet them with a brain that is not only trained to resolve problems but also heavy with problems. So shouldn't one enquire whether it is possible to be free of problems? And then any problem that arises we can meet freely. Is that possible? You understand my...

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    ...to it. And they create problems, and the speaker has to meet them - right? If he is also full of problems he will make a mess of it - right? So to be free of problems implies the enquiry into time - right? Because the problem and its solution implies inherently in it, time - right? I have a problem, I must think over it, I will discuss it, I will...

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    So can the brain, mind, be ever free from problems? Please ask this. This is a fundamental question one must ask oneself. But the brain is so trained to solve problems, it cannot understand what it means to be free of problems. Being free it can resolve problems, but not the other way round. I wonder

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    ...problems of nation, war, peace. So that it is completely free of that. Is that possible? Please put that question to yourself. Is it possible to be so completely free of problems, in which there is no defence or offence?

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    Now, our question is: is it possible to be free of problems and then attack problems - you understand? There are problems. But I cannot resolve them unless the brain is free. If it is not free, in the solution of one problem other problems are created, like in politics. I don't know if you are aware of it. The poor chaps solve one problem and...

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    ...are asking why we have never resolved any of our problems? Is it because our brain itself is conditioned to the resolution of problems, And therefore the brain itself is not free of problems? It is only a brain that is free that can solve problems. But if the brain itself is conditioned and therefore it itself has become a problem, therefore...

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    ...it. Haven't you answered the question? Can he? If you are free of problems - really, not just imaginatively - actually free of every problem that human beings have - death, love, sorrow, fear, pleasure - you know, problems - can I have any relationship with you if I have many of my problems? Obviously not. Then what do I do? You have no problems -...

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    ...I won't believe that, this is true, this is false, I pursue what I want. All that creates more problems - right? So it behoves us first to find out whether our brains can be free of problems, to understand and resolve problems. Right? Don't look at me. Perhaps one has not thought, or gone into this question. One will ask, 'Give me time to think...

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    ...look at these problems. If our brain is not free, then whatever problems arise we will meet them with the problems that we already have. So we are asking: is it possible for a brain to be free of problems? Is this all right? Am I putting a wrong question? Now how is a brain to be free of problems so that it can meet problems? How do you meet it?...

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    Krishnamurti: Thought, matter, the mechanical, is energy. Intelligence is also energy. Thought is confused, polluted, dividing itself, fragmenting itself.

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    K: When you have got the energy. Haven't you got the energy? Haven't you got the energy to come and listen to these unfortunate talks? You have taken the trouble, you know, money, all that, to come. You have got plenty of energy when you want to do something.

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    ...book.' And so we know what it means. To concentrate implies bringing all your energy to focus on a certain point, and thought wanders away, so you have a perpetual battle between the desire to concentrate, to give all your energy to look at a page, but your mind is wandering, and you try to control it. Whereas attention has no control, no...

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    ...possible, or it is possible, you are stuck. But when you say 'I don't know, but I am moving'. When I say 'I don't know', I am not static. I am moving, I am tremendously active and full of energy to find out. I am not transmitting my energy to you, you are doing it yourself, please. That is a danger....

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    So we are asking: what is energy? (Sound of crows) That crow calling is part of energy. Right? The trees, the birds, the stars, the moon, the rising of the sun, and setting of the sun, it is all energy. Right? Probably you doubt it but it doesn't matter. And whatever you speak requires energy, the first cry of the baby out of the womb, that cry is...

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    ...then what is it further that human beings for what reason further is it that human beings have not changed? You understand? We said it is lack of energy - is it lack of energy? Is it will? Is it incomplete action, with which you are familiar? And is there another thing that is impeding why human beings don't fundamentally change? Is there another?...

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    ...let him come and sit down. Please sir, let's get on with what I am saying, don't bother, if they are wanting to come, who doesn't come. Look (laughs), you've spent your energy telling somebody why you come. And I'm telling you, will you, as a human being, listen and put your whole energy into this, as you put your energy into earning a livelihood,...

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    ...houses, can you look at all that? So when you so look, you bring all your energy, you bring all your energy to observe, and when you so observe your violence you will find, if you have gone into it, if you do it, that violence because you have brought all your energy to observe, that violence totally disappears. Don't repeat, if I may most...

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    Why is it as you are listening you don't have the energy to look? That is, to have this energy to look you must be attentive, you must give your mind, your heart to the thing to look. Why don't you?

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    K: Energy is in that interval. To pick up again another thought? Are you guessing? Unfortunately - this is our trouble - you've not gone into this.

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    K: Yes. How is one if one discovers something, not to make it into a memory, into a knowledge and so make it into a routine, and so lose the energy of that first discovery, and to maintain that all the time. That is the question.

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    K: We are asking: such a man has the whole of that energy to call upon. And to reduce all that energy to these petty little affairs seems so ridiculous.

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    ...No, no, no, just sir, don't say it is. Let's find out. You see, there is energy. Right? Energy which is being used through conflict, which has become mechanical, routine, and we said this constant identification, all this energy is used along these lines. We are asking: why is this energy so completely used by thought? You understand what I am...

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    ...in the same way, religion is the transformation of man, the regeneration of man. And religion is the summation of all energy, the energy that transforms 'what is'. And that energy is the outcome of no conflict. We only know energy through conflict, through friction, through division; but the energy of a religious mind is entirely different. Such a...

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    ...doesn't prevent me my health. Health is destroyed by this constant conflict, achievement, success, ambition, uncertainty, confusion, all the pain of life. And energy, energy never dissipated. You understand sirs? By chattering, arguing, holding on to what you have done and say, 'This is right, I am going to stick to it.' You understand? Energy...

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    ...don't understand what is thinking, you will never be able to delve deeply into that which is beyond thought. So we have to understand the nature, and the structure of thought, why thought has such extraordinary importance in our life. We have emotions but thought recognises those emotions, classifies them, good and bad, worthwhile and noble and so...

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    That is: when one understands the nature and the structure of thought, and the things that thought has put together in this world - as racial minority, as colour difference, national divisions and so on - when thought recognises its limitation and remains within that limitation and so there is freedom from thought, then what takes place? And what...

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    He wanted to know what is the nature and the structure of thought, and whether thought can disentangle itself from the verbal network it has created for itself and functions so superficially, and cannot go very deeply. Would that cover this? Shall we discuss that; would that have some meaning?

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    ...if thought can bridge all these various fragments, can bring about an integration between all these factors? Can it? So one has to find out what is the nature and the structure of thought before we say that thought can or cannot? Thought, can thought, the thinking, the mentation, the intellectual process of reasoning, can such thought bring about...

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    ...will come to that later. But we are examining the very structure of thought, not your thought - because it is fairly obvious what your thought is, because you have been programmed, as an engineer, as a poet, as a scientist, as a housewife, as a scholar, as a religious man, a guru, you have been trained, trained, trained. And if you begin to look...

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    ...as well as psychological. I may not have biological, physiological experience, but I might have psychological experience, which is what? Psychological, the psyche is the structure of thought as the 'me'. Right? Thought has put together a structure which is called 'me': the name, the form, the quality; all that is thought. So thought is a material...

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    If it is clear, we are asking then what is the mind, which has been conditioned by thought - all its culture is based on thought, whether religious, social, economic, environmental, family and all the rest of it, it is essentially the structure of thought - and when the mind realises the futility of analysis, the futility of time as a means of understanding the content of fear and pleasure, what is it to do?

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    So a man who would live totally differently must understand the whole nature and structure of thought. Thought is measurable. And if we live only at that level, then our life is shallow, meaningless. You can go to the moon and kill each other, it has no meaning. Or go to the office everyday for the next forty years - just think of it! And that's...

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    ...it, you are going ahead of your problems. I have a problem. I have a problem of violence, I want to understand it completely, totally, so that the mind is entirely free from violence altogether, completely, and it can only understand it by understanding what is the structure of thought. It is thought that is breeding violence: it's my house, my...

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    So, you have to understand the nature and the structure of thought in order to be totally, completely free of fear. It is thought that is making fear. It is thought that says what might happen or what has happened in the past, and I am afraid of that. Right? So, that is why it is important to investigate the whole movement and the nature of...

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    K: What do you mean by the structure of thought. The tent is the structure of thought - right? - depending on the stress, strain, the proportions, and the necessity, the structure. The tent is independent of thought. I mean by structure also the movement of thought which imagines, which builds, which foresees, which lays down a structural path to...

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    ...a difference totally untouched by thought - is there such an instrument? And to find out one must be very, very clear, the nature and the structure of thought, its responsibility, its usage, where it is limited, and recognise its limitation and move away from that limitation. Then one can begin to enquire whether there is totally a different...

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    ...itself from something which it has created? I don't know if you are following this. Don't you say, 'I must control'? And the 'I' is the structure of thought, that which he is controlling is also the structure of thought. I wonder if you see this. Please, do see this very clearly. If we don't, let's examine it more. That is, let's go into it a...

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    ...we went into the question of thought. And I think it is very important to understand the whole nature and structure of thought because thought has created all the things with which we live. Thought is the essence of our existence. Thought translates our emotions, our sensory responses; thought has created the technological world and the world in...

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    JK: Of course. That's why, sir, I feel if once we grasp the nature of thought, the structure of thought, how thought operates; what is the source of thought, and therefore it is always limited, if we really see that then...

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    Attention is like a fire, when that attention is there that thing which is sorrow, the loneliness, the pain, the anxiety, the tears, when there is that complete attention all that goes, disappears. Attention is a flame.

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    K: The lady says when there is complete attention there is neither the observer nor the observed. Quite right. I mean, I am not saying you are right, I mean if it is so, it is so. And you want to maintain that attention. Right? Now, look: who is the entity that wants to maintain that attention? See what has happened? Do watch it, please watch it....

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    ...What happens? One gives complete attention in one's relationship between man and woman; let's begin with that. You have given complete attention. When she insults you, when she flatters you, when she bullies you or when she is attached to you, all that is the lack of attention. If you give complete attention and the wife doesn't, then what...

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    K: So in answering this question: what is attention, what is the nature of thought that ceases when there is complete attention, and when there is no attention, thought arises. That is what we are going to talk over together.

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    ...to everything that you do. You begin there. How you're dressed, how you talk, how you eat, how you walk - pay attention to all that. Then as you pay attention, you will know what it means to give complete attention. That is, to observe, to watch, to listen, thereby you become highly sensitive - not become - you are highly sensitive when there is...

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    K: No, no, you have not. And when do you give total attention - do listen to this, please - when do you give total attention, complete attention? When you are threatened. Right? When there is tremendous danger your complete attention is there. And when there is no danger you slip off.

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    ...to sustain attention for an hour and ten minutes, sustained, not pick it up occasionally. There are those moments when you are not giving complete attention and then you say, 'By Jove, I haven't quite understood what you are talking about'. Or you don't know English properly. Or what is being said by the speaker is not clear. Now which is it? If...

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    ...It interferes when there is a remembrance, when there is a knowledge of the past as being hurt and so on. You are following all this? It can only stop when you give complete attention in that relationship. You understand? Just think about it. We are investigating. Don't accept anything what the speaker is saying. We must begin with a great deal of...

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    K: Ah, in order oh, yes - mustn't the body be light and sensitive to pay complete attention. Not too many questions, sir because...

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    ...have. That image has been created, has come into being through various incidents, pleasurable, non-pleasurable, and all the rest of it. Now look at that image you have about her or him with complete attention. Then you will see in that attention there is no image at all. So the past image and the image that you might build will disappear when you...

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    So, when somebody says something to the picture that is going to be hurt, when there is complete attention there is no hurt. Have you understood? Somebody calls the speaker a fool, arrogant, or this or that. To listen to that word, to see the meaning of that word and give complete attention to it, then there is no past hurt, or the future hurt...

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    ...a flame. Right? Attention is like turning on a very, very bright light. And you need that attention, that complete attention in which there is no resistance, not saying, 'I will attend', 'I must learn how to attend' - which means gradualness, therefore you are not attending. Do you see all this? I wonder - one wonders if you are taking the same...

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    K: Have you done it, sirs? Now wait a minute: you and I are quarrelling now, it is a quarrel, I'll show you. Will you give your complete attention? Then what happens? If you, as the husband or the wife, give complete attention what happens to the other person? You don't even come Come on, sirs, what happens?

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    ...is a movement in space and time which is thought. Right? If one sees that not as an idea but an actuality, which means one has to pay attention to that pain, that fear which happened last week, to give to that fear complete attention at the moment it arises then it is not registered. Do try, do this and you will find out for yourself. When you...

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    And we are asking whether being totally in contact with sorrow, without any kind of division, without a shadow of trying to overcome it, or explain it, be totally with it, and when you are so with it you are giving your complete attention to it, and it is this attention, this total, complete attention, with all your energy, it is that energy that dispels, ends sorrow.

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    So our responsibility is tremendous. I am using that word 'responsibility' without any sense of guilt. If you feel responsible you act. But if you don't act don't feel guilty, you are simply not responsible.

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    ...No. On the contrary. There is - just would you listen, sir? - there is feeling of responsibility and feeling responsible for. You see the two different things? That is, one feels responsible for this grove, for this beautiful place, or you feel responsible, when you are walking down the road, you feel responsible to pick up a piece of paper that...

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    ...himself fundamentally. And the responsibility of that depends on the human being, not on the mass or on the priests or on a church or a temple or mosque or whatever, but on a human being who is aware of this enormous confusion, politically, religiously, economically, in every direction there is such misery, such unhappiness. And when you see that,...

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    K: Now, I see this, as a human being, I say what am I to do? You follow, sir? What is my responsibility in face of the irresponsible?

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    Krishnamurti: The responsibility of a human being with regard to the images he forms about another. Could we discuss that: responsibility.

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    K: The gentleman says, my responsibility is to be totally be free of the world. Seeing this whole picture, shall I cry for the rest of my life, get terribly depressed, in despair? I can't do it, it's not in my blood to get depressed about this. So I say to myself, what is my responsibility? - there is war, there are drugs, in education really...

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    K: If love has no responsibility then what takes place? If love is not attachment which is implied in responsibility, then what takes place?

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    ...was I? What is responsibility in relationship to action in a world that is utterly confused, what is my responsibility? When I see the whole of this thing - the division, how the divisions have arisen, how we sustain those divisions, what the divisions have brought about in the world - I see not only the whole of it but also all the details of it...

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    K: So do you take the responsibility, you, as a human being living on this earth, do you take the responsibility and say, 'I won't be violent'? Or do you indulge sometimes in violence, sometimes not - you follow what I am talking about? Which is it?

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    K: The lady says: I feel the responsibility when I am with my children. That responsibility is that I feel completely in despair when I am with them. Be honest, for god's sake! Don't let us imagine.

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    ...Not to do what one likes - that's too childish, too immature, too limited. Freedom. That word itself contains, in the terms, love. Is that what you want? Or to have no responsibility at all. Like the soldier who is sent to war, he is perfectly happy because he has no responsibility. Is that what you want? No responsibility whatsoever. That's why,...

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    K: This is what is happening. And I feel it's my responsibility. And to me I've a passion for it, it's my responsibility to see that when I talk to you, you understand it, you live it, you function, move in that way.

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    ...clearly if you are rooted in the past. You are merely continuing, modified perhaps, through the present to the future. That's all. So from that arises the question, what is the responsibility in human relationship?

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    ...individual, the individual is really a human being who is totally completely whole, sane, healthy and therefore holy. And to bring about such a human being is our responsibility in education, politically, religiously, in every way. And therefore it is the responsibility of the educator, of everybody, not just myself, my responsibility, it is your...

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    K: Sir, is it responsibility implies not only to your little to your family, but you are responsible as a human being for the rest of humanity.

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    You assume that memory is a material process - it's not only a material process, sir. When somebody speaks the language he never learnt is it material memory? Is it in the brain cells?

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    K: I know. I am sorry. I must be careful, using the right words. Thought is a material process in the brain, and any other movement springing from that material process is still material process.

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    K: Yes, yes, I know, spirit, Holy Ghost! Is there a material process in the brain is there some other activity which - it cannot be related to this, to the material process.

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    K: What do you say? The brain thought is a material process, with its content. Any activity from that is still part of that.

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    So the questioner says, what is thinking. It's memory, response of memory, as we saw, response of experience as knowledge stored up in the brain cells, which is matter. You understand? The cells are a material process, so thought is a material process. Right? That's clear. So can thought bring about correct action? That's the question. Right?

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    We said thought is a material process, which we have been saying for many years and the scientists are now saying the same thing. Not that I want their encouragement, I am just stating it. A material process. And thought has put together the 'me'. When thought, which is the material process, comes to an end with death, the me - is there a me? You...

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    K: Action, quite, I understand. I have understood it. So we are continually insisting that the material process must have a relationship to...

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    So if all thought is a material process, and whatever it has put together is still a material process, even though it says, there is a permanent 'me', it is still part of the structure of thought. Then what is an ending, which is death? You understand? I wonder if you are following all this.

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    K: When the physical body dies, the material process which is the brain structure, which is the thought process, dies. You understand? I wonder if you see this.

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    K: Oh my god! Madame, if I may point out without being rude, when you say the material process dies, have you died to that now? Not when death comes. You understand, sir? I'll show it to you.

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    ...motive. Because the motive dictates the direction, and distorts the observation. Right? That's clear. Then you will say, how can I observe myself without a motive because I am full of motives - motives being reward and punishment essentially. Isn't it? So can one look at oneself freely without this tremendous tradition of man seeking reward and...

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    ...It's so obvious. And that reward is away from the pain which he's had. So we are saying, this search for reward or the achievement of the reward, is a movement of time. And is there such a thing at all? We have invented it, it may be illusion. And from this illusion I can't go to reality - I mean to truth. So the mind must be totally, completely...

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    ...accumulated. That is the ending. But thought says, 'That isn't good enough. What is the future? I have accumulated so much knowledge. I have been virtuous, struggled, what is the reward for all that?' So our mind, brain, is accustomed to reward and punishment. The reward is the future comfort, future security, a continuity of that which has been....

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    ...what is this ending? You are following this? Are we together in this a little bit? What does it mean to end? Have we ever ended something without a motive, without a reward or punishment - to end? Because where there is an ending there is a totally new beginning. But we never end. We end things if it is profitable or painful. Our life is based on...

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    ...never observe. We observe things that are convenient, friendly. We observe if there is a reward or punishment. I don't know if you have not noticed our whole upbringing, education in our life, daily life is based on an extraordinary one principle - reward and punishment. Right? You meditate in order to be rewarded. You progress in order to be...

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    K: You can't bully me into it, you can't persuade me into it, you can't give me a reward to see it; you say, well, here it is, look at it. But if you refuse to look at it what am I to do?

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    ...chasing ideas, or chasing gurus, which is the same thing. You are acting. Life is action, as relationship is action. So what is action? Our action is based on reward and punishment, to put it very, very simply. I like life if I can get something out of it. And I will be punished if I don't act rightly, therefore I attempt to act rightly. So our...

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    K: No. Will you drop yours? Will I drop my prejudice because I see the importance of having a good relationship. Will that make me do it? You see, in all that is implied a reward, a sense of if you don't do this you will be punished. That again is acting according to a desire of not wanting to be punished or wanting a reward.

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    K: Obviously. Because all our thinking is based on these two principles: reward and punishment. Our reward is enlightenment, God, Nirvana or whatever you like to call it, away from anxiety, guilt, all the pain of existence, you know, all the misery of it all.

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    K: Reward, I am frightened, I have been brought up that way, I know I am being programmed, yes, and you repeat that in different ways. So I say please, go on, I am rather bored with this - I am not. You know. So you tell me why you see something physically very, very, very clearly, and psychologically you say 'I don't know what you are talking...

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    ...says, 'I will help you to be detached, do this, this, this. Practise this, this, this'. And I want to be free from it and I accept what the silly man says because I see the importance of being free, and he promises me that if I do this I will have a reward. So I want to be free in order to have a reward. You understand? I am looking for a reward....

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    K: Love is the product of reward and punishment. Oh, no, no sir, I did not I am afraid we don't understand English either, perhaps I may not understand English. Which is, I said our life is based on reward and punishment. Right? And that is the movement of thought. If I do this I will get that, which will be better. If I don't do this I may be...

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    ...not with beliefs, not with all kinds of superstitious nonsense but a life, our daily every day life. Is it possible to bring complete order without any compulsion, without any pressure, without these two principles acting: reward and punishment? For most of us these two principles are active: reward and punishment. And meditation is not a reward,...

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    We talked about pleasure and all the implications of pleasure, essentially based on reward and punishment. To avoid punishment - you understand? - not physical punishment, but the sense of being, losing, the sense of not having. The having is a reward and the losing is the pain. So we live our daily life on this principle: reward and punishment....

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    ...Let's go into that a little bit. You see partly it is because I have always concerned in becoming that there is a reward at the end of it and I am always avoiding pain - punishment and reward. And in that cycle I am caught. That is probably one of the reasons why the mind keeps on trying to become something. And the other perhaps is deep-rooted...

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    K: No, then it is not - you're already saying, it is possible, then you've blocked it. Or if you say it's not possible, you have blocked it. But to find out whether it is possible to live without conflict implies there should be no division. Right?

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    ...important than the mere physical examination. Then you will find that human beings have lived this way for millennia, accepting individuality and from that all the problems arising - conflict with each other, conflict with the community, conflict with society, conflict as war and so on, so on, so on. Now is this a fact, or a theory invented by the...

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    ...the content makes consciousness and that consciousness is conditioned. And since it is conditioned, it must be in conflict. Aren't you all in conflict of some kind or another, conflict being dissension between two people, conflict with oneself, what is and what should be. That is a conflict. A man who is violent, as all human beings apparently are...

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    K: All right. I'm only saying conflict indicates disorder. So, then what? From there, move. Move. You keep on going around in circles. Move.

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    ...No, just see. When there is a division - right? - there is conflict, isn't there? When there is division between the Arab and the Jew, between the Catholic and the Protestant, or the North Ireland and the British - division in any form must bring about conflict. So when there is a division between the experiencer, the analyser, the thinker and the...

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    ...are we, each one of us who is at all serious, are we aware of this fact? That in us, in our consciousness, there is this duality. and therefore conflict between the two. And the outcome of that conflict is, the bad grows more and more and more. Bene? But when you observe, without any choice, observe without any prejudice, without any conclusion -...

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    K: To some extent, but what I am trying to get at is: why has man never confronted this problem? Why hasn't he, all of us, why haven't we said, let's end conflict? Or rather we have been encouraged, because through conflict we think there is progress.

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    What is this conflict? Why have we human beings lived with disorder? Not only during this century, not only last week and now, but man has lived in disorder for thousands of years. We have inherited it, our brains are conditioned to conflict. Our very way of looking at life, thinking about, accepting, disobeying, belonging to this and not to that,...

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    K: So, you say, 'Well, this conflict is destroying our energy'. Wait. Then why don't you stop it? Find out how to stop it. I'm asking, therefore, enquire, go into it. That is, as long as there is an observer - right? - there must be conflict. As long as there is nationality there must be conflict, as long as you are a Christian and somebody else...

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    K: So can we now in talking over together, be aware that I am that? I am a fragment and therefore creating more fragments, more conflict, more misery, more confusion, more sorrow, because when there is conflict it affects everything.

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    ...it is still outside of myself, it is still the act of thought which seeks guidance from another. So that brings about a division, and hence a conflict - what I should do according to what another says, and try to conform to the pattern set by another. Therefore that brings about a conflict, and therefore disharmony. You are following all...

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    And intelligence has not so far been able to transcend conflict - right? And we are going this morning, together, to see if it is possible if the brain can be free from conflict, because we have lived with conflict from the time we are born till we die. The constant struggle to be, or to become, to become something, so-called spiritually,...

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    So conflict becomes inevitable when each one of us is occupied so entirely with himself. Right? Which we are. And we need to be, in exploring this, tremendously honest otherwise the game is not worth playing. Now the problem is: can this relationship exist without effort, without this constant strife between human beings, and what then is that...

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    ...sirs, we human beings have problems. As I said, one of the problems is conflict, conflict between 'what is' and 'what should be'. That is a conflict. And belief in any form, psychologically, which gives a certain kind of security is detrimental for man. If you see conflict is a danger, a fact, look at it, see all the consequences of it, then see...

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    ...Look, madame, let me be clear. First of all, 'what is' is the fact. The fact is we live in conflict. Conflict in our relationship with the outer, and conflict with the inner. We are perpetually in conflict, both outwardly and inwardly. That's a fact. Because conflict implies division. Right? Division - I believe and you don't believe, this is my...

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    ...not a gathering of an evening which you casually attend and forget. We are gathered for a serious purpose. And that serious quality depends on you, whether you are being challenged, whether you accept the challenge, or you just pass it by. Various cultures have failed, including the culture of this country. So when you observe all these outward...

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    ...same thing, only you put it in one way and I put it in another way, but we both want experience. I say, why? We need experience, as when there is a challenge you respond, that is an experience, and that challenge keeps one awake - right? - if there wasn't the Communists, the Capitalists would be further Capitalists, if there wasn't somebody - you...

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    ...I wake up for the moment and struggle, struggle not to be dull, to be a little more intelligent, and so on, so on. So experience generally has the significance of waking one up, giving you a challenge to which you have to respond. Either you respond to it adequately, or inadequately. If it is inadequate, the response then becomes a medium of pain,...

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    That is, one part is, most people's minds are asleep, asleep through propaganda, habit, repetition, conditioning and so on, asleep and a challenge is necessary for such a mind. Such a mind realises that, therefore keeps awake without challenge. And also there is the other part, experiencer is the experienced therefore he is not asking any more...

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    K: All right, only in the moment of a challenge. We are challenging now. If the challenge is strong enough, if the challenge is important enough and if the challenge is urgent, a shock to you, then do you see it? Not as an idea, not as a concept, not as something somebody has told you, but actually you see it.

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    ...the question of meditation. We ought to consider also how we meet our problems. We have problems: a problem is, the meaning of that word is, something thrown at you, like a challenge; how you respond to that challenge, how you respond to a particular problem. As we were saying yesterday, our life is ebb and flow, going out to the world and coming...

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    ...Yes. I don't like to use 'subjective' and 'objective'. Is there the need of experience at all? We have said: experience is the response to a challenge. I challenge you - I say, 'Why?' and you either respond to it, and say, 'Yes, perfectly right, why, I am with you'. But the moment there is any kind of resistance to that question, 'Why?', you are...

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    K: Yes. So what will you do, how will you meet this question, how will you meet this challenge? The challenge is: what are you to do in this world, if you have lost if you put away your ugly little individuality which means nothing.

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    ...Yes. I don't like to use 'subjective' and 'objective'. Is there the need of experience at all? We have said: experience is the response to a challenge. I challenge you - I say, 'Why?' and you either respond to it, and say, 'Yes, perfectly right, why, I am with you'. But the moment there is any kind of resistance to that question, 'Why?', you are...

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    K: Total commitment to the challenge. Responding adequately, completely to a crisis. That is, the word 'responsibility' means that, to respond. I cannot respond completely if I am frightened. Or I cannot respond completely if I am seeking pleasure. I cannot respond totally if my action is routine, is repetitive, is traditional, is conditioned. So,...

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    ...to be a light to yourself in a world that is utterly becoming dark. That means you have to be responsible. Now, what does that word mean? It means really, to respond totally, adequately to every challenge. You cannot possibly respond adequately if you are rooted in the past, because the challenge is new, otherwise it is not a challenge. A crisis...

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    You know, any challenge - any challenge - the deeper the challenge, the wider the challenge, the more intense the challenge is, the greater energy is demanded to meet it. Sorrow is this challenge. And it is the essence of that challenge to which you have to respond. But if you respond to it by escaping from it, by seeking comfort from it, then you...

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    That's a challenge to you. You understand? That's a challenge: why your mind is occupied with itself? How do you answer a challenge? What is your response to that question? Do you respond according to your culture, tradition and respond according to your past background? - please, do listen to this - and therefore, you respond inadequately to a...

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    ...I wake up for the moment and struggle, struggle not to be dull, to be a little more intelligent, and so on, so on. So experience generally has the significance of waking one up, giving you a challenge to which you have to respond. Either you respond to it adequately, or inadequately. If it is inadequate, the response then becomes a medium of pain,...

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    ...speaker or to question your friends, your wives and your husbands, question, to doubt, to enquire, to be sceptical. And when one puts a question, which is a challenge, to whom or from whom do you expect that challenge to be answered? Is it a challenge to oneself? Or are you challenging the speaker? There is a great deal of difference: when you are...

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    K: We cannot think without forming, without bringing about fragmentation. So you are all saying, in more or less different words, that thought is the source of all fragmentation.

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    K: That's it. So discussing this very issue is a fragmentation. But we are asking, we are asking why this fragmentation exists, why can't I communicate with you completely. And you convey to me completely. So let's find out, let's go into this slowly - what is the process, the mechanism, the cause of this fragmentation.

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    K: Sir, look, look: if there was no fragmentation, both historically, geographically, nationally, no nations, we would live perfectly safely. We would all be protected, we would all have food, we would all have - you follow? - houses, there would be no wars, we'd all one. He is my brother; I am him, he is me. But this fragmentation prevents that...

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    There is fragmentation - the teacher and the disciple, the authority, the follower, the man who says he's enlightened, the man who says, I don't know, teach me - the Communist, the Socialist, you follow - fragmentation. Why? How does it happen? If I could really understand it, learn all about it, I've finished with it. Then my relationship with...

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    ...why do we do this? What is the reason that the human being, the human mind has broken up, this fragmentation that's going on all the time? Why? Where there is a fragmentation, there is division. Right? And where there is division there is contradiction and where there is contradiction there must be conflict. Right? You are not agreeing with me....

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    K: Sir, look, I see in the world - and the world is myself, and myself is the world, that's a fact - I see fragmentation everywhere - nationalities, the Muslim, the Hindu, the Christian, the Buddhist - you follow? - fragmented - the artist, the writer, the thinker, the philosopher, the scientist, you know, division after division, fragmentation....

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    K: Wait, wait, madame, first, do you know, are you aware, conscious, any word you like? If you are, then what will you do with that fragmentation, how do you look at that fragmentation? Please, do pay attention, you will find if you pursue this. How do you look at that fragmentation?

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    K: No. Not see them as one. I said there is this fragmentation, and this fragmentation is created by thought. Right? You must be clear on that.

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    K: I don't know anything about it - I'm asking you. I am asking you. Don't ask me that question. When there is a fragmentation of the mind, that very fragmentation is conflict.

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    And most of that stimulus has come from meeting Dr Bohm, who has moved my thinking along and I have come to feel that specifically there is something about the way we think in psychiatry, which is, that all the theories deal with fragmentation and the relationships between fragmentation, and most of them do not have any understanding of the holistic action, or the holism that gives birth to this fragmentation.

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    K: Is that not fragmentation, I say one thing and do something else? On a simple basis, start with that not with heavens, and

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    So, let's come back to the point: as long as there is division in myself, fragmentation, broken up, that very fragmentation is one of the major causes of conflict - I want this, and a little later I don't want it. So if you want to go into it very deeply, isn't desire one of the causes of conflict?

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    ...can the mind see this as a whole? And it cannot see it as a whole if there is a fragmentation which observes. We are asking, what is the quality of the mind that is highly attentive, in which there is no fragmentation. That is what we left off yesterday, where we left off. What is the quality of the mind. I don't know if you have gone through it,...