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K: Are you saying no? When are you then generous? When are you feeling affectionate, kind, generous, sympathetic? Or do you never feel it? Or only occasionally?

JK: Yes, it is the activity of thought. Now if I consciously meditate, practise, do all this kind of what I call nonsense, then you are making the brain conform to another series of patterns.

K: That's what I'm I am coming to that, madame. Look at it, sir. He is attracted to it, attracted to all that, and he won't listen to my talk. He kind of avoids me. Right? Don't you know all this, as parents? No?

So what will bring us together? Belief won't, authority of any kind is rejected, the reward by another as a means for you to change is also rejected. And if you say you are going to be punished in heaven for not obeying, you say 'Go away, don't be silly', and you pass him. So what will make us come together?

K: No, but that's not I'm saying, the source of fear of every kind that human beings have is born from thought. Will you listen to that statement, as you would listen when I say I really love you? Because it's too simple, your mind immediately says, 'No, that's too damn simple, it's not, it is much more complicated than that'.

K: Who invented exams? (Laughter) The Chinese? The Mandarins? I believe they were the original people who kind of invented this monstrous system.

...when given an opportunity it breaks through. Which is it? I've seen so many people in - I've lived a long time - from the age of fifteen I've seen this happen, with people of my own age - begin beautiful, you know, and gradually finish, destructive, cruel, brutal, self-centred, ugly, drunk.

...what happens when you when the observer is the observed. You understand? When the anger is me, then what takes place? Have you enquired into this or you just say, 'Yes, I am the observer, the observed'? Meaningless. But to find out or experience, go into it and find out if anger is always different from you. That has been the tradition, that has...

I am anger, am I not? Anger is not something separate from me. I am greed, envy, anxiety. Right? I like to think that is something separate over which I have control. But the actual fact is I am all that - even the controller is me. Right? So there is no division between greed, anger, jealousy, and so on - that is me, that is the observer. Right?...

K: Look, sir, can you watch, is there an observation of that feeling without naming it? The moment you say, anger, it is violence. Right?

K: Wait, careful, don't agree so quickly. You are not different from all that. Right? Are you different from anger? No, of course not. So you are anger. Right?

K: Sir, look at it in yourself. At the moment of jealousy, or of anger, or of envy, or of hate, whatever it be, happiness, at that second there is no division, is there?

K: Sir, no, not my relationship with truth. I am angry. Right? Suppose I am angry - there is anger, not I am angry - there is anger. Can I, is there an observation of that feeling, that reaction, without the whole movement of thought coming into it? That's all my question.

K: If I don't hold my anger I am afraid I might kill somebody. Look, look. Before you kill somebody, try to find out if you can resolve the anger. To control it is to suppress it. To say, 'I must not be angry' is to create the opposite, and therefore a conflict between 'must not be' and the fact that I am. Right? Or if you try to escape from it,...

K: I never said - those are biological demands, but psychologically - anger, envy, jealousy, hate, attachment - can't you end all that? Of course, one can. Then do it! Talk to your wife or your husband, to your neighbour, gently, quietly, with affection, with care. Sir, you make me cry! You don't listen to all this.

...it. Before I am aware or anything, I say to myself, is it possible for me to watch - casually, I'm playing with it, I am having a game with myself. I am watching the movement of anger arising. I think that's fairly simple. Right? I think you've noticed all that, haven't you? No,...

K: You are anger at that moment. You are envy at that moment. And so there are many, many moments you are. Right? You are your anger, you are your name, you are your bank account, if unfortunately you have a bank account, you are your family you are your society, you are your god - you are, you invented all this. So, there is no 'you' separate...

...lack of love, and to have no psychological fear at all. All this implies that one must stand alone. There is a difference between isolation and aloneness, between loneliness and being able to stand by yourself clearly, unconfused, uncontaminated.

...Sir, I don't know what is happening to most of the people all the time. But I am saying as one human being we are so conditioned in the pattern of achievement, whether in business, in religion, in any way, we are conditioned to achieve. Now in becoming aware of this conditioning, then you will find in that awareness if you are choosing, if you are...

K: So instead of going through all that business why don't you find out, let's find out what is thought, whether it can end, what is implied. You follow? Dig!

K: Could we start: why are we fragmented? Why do we look at life and all our actions and our business, whatever it is, always this fragment, business, religion, love, hate, you follow? It is all so broken up. Why do we do this?

K: Why does one, I mean, if one is afraid, do you, does one want to go really deeply inside the whole business of it, and be free from it? Does one demand that? Or we don't know how to deal with fears and so we run away from it, avoid it and explain it away. Is that it, we never really want to go into it and completely dissolve it. Is that what is...

K: Isn't this what is happening in life? Don't say, it is not my business if you are a Communist. It is my business to see if we can live in security, in peace in the world, we are human beings, supposed to be intelligent. Why should I be committed to anything?

So we have said desire, greed, attachment, is part of our life, daily struggling, conflict, occasionally happy, life. And now, let's examine together, and I mean together, what is fear, why we are so frightened. And this problem of fear has not been solved at all though we have lived a million years, we are still carrying on in the same old...

Now, I realise the fact that in that attachment there is really no security, because she might die, she might run away, she might look at somebody else, she is a free person, but I don't want her to be free, but I am attached. So can I look at that attachment, have an insight into that attachment, because insight is the liberating factor. Not...

...must create disorder. Because being tied implies dependence, the escape from one's own loneliness, fear, and all that. Now to have total insight into this attachment, that very insight clears away all attachment.

Now what is the relationship between two human beings when there is total freedom from attachment? Because we said attachment is one of the causes of great suffering, pain. What is it? Do you want my answer - or are you facing, looking at the actuality? The actuality means what is actually taking place and therefore you are observing with care,...

And we were saying one of the factors, among others, is this attachment - why human beings are so attached to a belief, to an ideal, to an image of themselves, to some concept, to the verbal structure. And when one is attached, in that attachment, however deep, however momentary, however pleasant, in that possessiveness, which is attachment, there...

So to understand the nature of love, is it possible to be totally free from attachment? Please ask this question of yourself. You are all attached to something or another. Become - if I may suggest most respectfully - become aware of the consequences of that attachment. If you are attached to an ideal you are always on the defensive or aggressive....

And there is a continuity in our life through attachment. Right? And to voluntarily say, 'I will end attachment' - have you ever done it? So we are asking, and you are asking too, do we voluntarily ever give up anything, not for a reward, for itself? And you don't see the beauty of ending something completely. So ending has great significance....

So we have said if there is love there is no attachment; if there is attachment there is no love. So there has been the removal of the major factor in negation of what it is not, which is, love is not attachment. You know what it means in your daily life? No remembrance of anything, my wife, my girl-friend, or my neighbour told me, no remembrance...

So can you be free of this attachment so that there is a responsibility which is not a duty? Then what is love when there is no attachment? You understand my question? Look: if you are attached to a nationality, you worship isolation of nationality, which is a form of glorified tribalism, you are attached to it. What does that do? It breaks it up,...

K: both externally and inwardly. If I have an insight into attachment: attachment to ideas, attachment to conclusions, attachment to persons, attachment to my - you follow? - knowledge, experience. If I have an insight into that, the whole thing is abandoned.

We were saying that freedom is not at all possible through any system, both outwardly and inwardly - freedom cannot be brought about through any political or economic system, either through communism or capitalism; no religion, organised, can ever bring about this freedom; nor following a particular little group, separate from others. We went into...

...what is it to be free? Freedom is from something - freedom from our own misery, from our own troubles and problems, free to have an economic society that is providing for all human beings, a society that is not too corrupt and so on. Freedom from our own bondage, from our own peculiar tendencies, opinions and judgements in which most of us are...

...contrary of attention. Therefore there is no method, full stop. Oh, you don't see the beauty of this, you see. You see, sir, all implies freedom, freedom means freedom from the past, freedom from recording, so that the mind is free.

And we were talking the other day about freedom, which we have so misused, which we have so destroyed the full beauty of that word by permissiveness, by doing each one what he likes, not being responsible and that freedom in which is implied love, consideration, care, attention, all that is implied in that word 'freedom', not, to do what each one of us wants to do, because each one of us is the result of a million years, and if we don't understand this enormous complex structure of our mind, and brain with all its senses, emotions, cravings, without that deep perception, understanding, we cannot possibly bring about a different world, a different structure of human existence.

If one is aware at all that one is conditioned religiously, morally and that there is no freedom at all, as long as we are conditioned there can be no freedom whatsoever. So we're going to talk over together this morning, not only freedom, justice, goodness, and whether there's the possibility of human beings ever moving away from the stream of...

K: Practical. Therefore here it is. That is, can a human being live in relationship in freedom and yet operate in the field of knowledge?

...day of our life. That's a common occurrence for all of humanity, pursuing their own isolated, solitary illusions, stimulations, aspirations and ideologies. And that is what they call freedom. Surely, that is not freedom. Freedom requires a great deal of discipline. Please understand what we mean by that word. We will go into it in a minute -...

...Sirs, you don't put your minds to all this. Right? See if it is possible for you, sitting here now, to be entirely free of the image of words. So there is freedom - there is no freedom in becoming. There is no freedom when a man is ambitious, or a woman is ambitious, greedy, envious. He may think he is free because he expresses his ambition. So...

...around us, at the world. All over the world there is a decline, there is degeneracy taking place - all over the world. There is no freedom - freedom in the sense, freedom from sorrow, freedom from pain, freedom from loneliness. There are governments that are controlling human minds, trying to shape them through their ideology, which is the...

So there are two things involved in it: first freedom, and fear. Right? What is freedom? Please, this is not a talk by me, therefore it is a dialogue. What is freedom? Does the mind, our whole being demand freedom? Or freedom only in certain things, freedom from pain, sorrow, anxiety, guilt and all that, but not from pleasure. You understand? We...

...that: which is, to understand desire, desire is sensation - I will go into it, I will explain it a little bit. There is seeing the tree, the woman, the man, the car, the politician who is right on the top, or the guru who says, 'I know'. So perception, seeing, then contact, touching, then out of that sensation. Right? Is this clear? Then what...

...the reaction. You see something in the window and you want it. What has taken place? The seeing of that dress, that trouser, that coat, that car, that woman, that man, or whatever it is - seeing, the sensation, the contact and say, 'I like that, that's exciting'. Which is, thought creates an image, you sitting in the car and driving. You follow?...

...That's right, sir, that's right. What do we mean by danger? A car is coming towards you as you are crossing the road and you might die and all the rest of it, so you move away from it. Self-preservation - the instinct to preserve one's being, both physiologically as well as psychologically. Now is not conflict similar to that? Let's keep it very...

...Ah, you don't understand the word 'technology'. Technique - to do something, say for instance you want to build a car, and you must know all the parts, put them together, they must all work together. I have dismantled a car, put it all to pieces, and then put it all together hoping it will work. But it did work. Right? Learning about all the...

...I don't know. That is, there are events in one's life, happenings, that appear to be a chance, happens by chance. Events that occur in random, you know, not knowing, it happens. Is that happening new, totally unexpected, or is that happening the result of unexamined, hidden, unconscious events? Just a minute, just a minute. I happen to meet you,...

...Go slowly, sir, think it out carefully. If one has an idea, a concept, a conclusion, an end to which you conform, to which you change to, or from this to that, is that change? Or is it a continuation of the same thing but modified. You have understood my question? One may project what one should be. The projection of that is from one's own desire,...

...of what has been, what is dead and put into different words and different circumstances. So it becomes very important, it seems to me, not only that we must bring about a change in the world outside us, but also a total revolution psychologically, inwardly. That seems to me the most urgent and necessary thing. That change will bring about...

So we are concerned, if you are at all serious, whether your mind, which is so destructive, so corrupt, a mind that has created a world that is insane, a world that has become monstrous, where human beings, quiet, gentle, really affectionate human beings cannot possibly live, and to bring about a change in that, there must be a change in the inner world, and nobody wants to do that.

So we are saying, if one looks to time, that is tomorrow, to bring about a change then it is futile hope - right? That's clear. Therefore you have to enquire: what is change? Is change in terms of the future? Is change something from that which is to something else? Please go into it, don't... I am this, I will be that. I will be that means...

But the question is: what is the root of thought, and whether thought can bring about a change? Please understand, this is the question. What is the factor that ends this, the continuity, change, and what actually brings change? Can thought bring change? You understand? That which is limited thinks it can change. And therefore when it tries to...

So some of you have listened for many years and do we listen and therefore bring about a change, or you have got used to the words and just carry on? So we are asking: what will make man, a human being who has lived for so many million years, carrying on the same old pattern, inherited the same instincts, self preservation, fear, security, sense...

And we are asking: I am this, my consciousness is this: fear, sorrow, pain, pleasure and all the varieties of fear, all the nationalistic, tribalistic responses, prejudices - black, white, purple, pink and all the rest of it, we are all that - subtle, violent, cruel, bitter, cynical, and we are always trying to change that into something else, like violence, trying to change violence into non-violence, which is to become.

...form of control. All this, with all its misery, confusion, is the lot of all of us, the life of most people; probably it is yours. And we don't seem to be able to change either ourselves or outward circumstances. Perhaps it is much more difficult to change the economic structure and the political nature, but perhaps we could, if we apply our...

...No, just Please, don't Go slowly, please. First I want to be clear that the difference between change and transformation, a mutation, if you want to use that word. Change implies changing 'what is' into 'what should be'. Right? Into 'what should be' is already established, by thought, by environment, by circumstances, by pressures and so on, so on...

...do you listen to all this? That outward pressure is not going to change, inward giving yourself over to a presence, a reality, to god, to this, or to that, is still the desire which drives you to forget yourself, but the self is still there, only covered up. So do you listen to these statements. Right? Or it doesn't mean any thing at all? So...

So can we go into it? This instrument and the nature. We have talked about 'what is' from the first time we met you, but what is the nature of this 'what is'?

K: Now wait a minute, Scott, do you question why you don't see the whole nature and structure of fear? Or do you say, I don't see, I only see part of it, not the whole of it. Do you question why you don't see it?

...No, no, no, no - why? Why aren't you looking at that flower? Why? First of all, I think, we have given to nature such nature has no value at all for most of us because we say, 'Well, I can see the tree any time I want to'. That's one thing. And also, we are so concentrated upon our own worries, our own hopes, our own desires and experiences,...

...together is actual. The guns, the submarines, going to the moon, and so on and so on are all actual realities. But that reality is created by thought - right? Thought has not created nature. So nature is actual, real but it is not the product of thought. But thought can use the nature, making a chair, which becomes a reality....

K: Now here, I have explained for an hour and a quarter, in discussion, the nature and the structure of thought. Right? And when you watch the nature and the structure of thought, see where it is important, where it is not important, see the truth of that - you follow? - the truth of its operation and its non-operation, then there is a different...

So, sirs, it is important to understand the nature and the structure of relationship. To change this corrupt society you must change, you must change yourself radically. And during all these talks we are concerned about that only: to bring about a mutation in the very mind, in the very cells of the brain.

K: So where does that lead us? We were talking really about insight, that it actually changes the nature of the brain itself.

And we are going to talk about together the nature of what we consider love. This has been a question that has existed among the ancient Egyptians, the ancient Hindus, and recently the Christian world and the Islamic concept; they have all preached, talked about loving your neighbour, and so on. This has been asserted, religiously, in all the...

K: We are doing it - find out, sir. But you haven't - have you lost have you had an insight into the nature of the individual and his organisations? Finished. If you have understood that, seen the truth of it, finished, you can never enter into that.

...bear in mind we are going to make it much more orderly, strict and not make it into another resort for amusement, please. Though it has been announced several times, that music that goes on, what is called music - Bong(?) is it? - thumping on the drums and so on went on until half past ten last night. So please be courteous, careful of others and...

K: Go and listen to music. The moment that music stops you are back to your images. This is all so childish! Take drugs, that also creates various images.

...Rien n'est completement. Look sir, when you listen to music, there is the beauty of it, the romanticism of it, the remembrance of it, hearing it in different places, and the association that it evokes, that music, with whom you heard it, how you talked about it, what the critics said about it and so on. So when your mind is occupied then the space...

K: No, no, sir. Is courage the opposite of fear? That is, if fear is non-existent is it courage? Or it is something totally different?

K: Thought, quite right. But sir, to go so profoundly it requires tremendous, not only courage, but the sense of constant pursuing the same stream.

I am not, the speaker has never been pessimistic or optimistic, he is just showing something to you: that the computers can take over all that man has done - almost, except the computers can't look at the beautiful tree, or the evening star, single, alone in the sky, or the morning light on the waters. When a machine can take over all that you are...

You know that word, 'communication' is very important to understand. Communication means building together, creating together. The word itself means that. And here we are trying to communicate, the speaker is trying to communicate with you, who are the listener, which means the listener and the speaker are creating together. Therefore, you're not...

...with the psyche, the mind, and from there moving outwards. I don't know if we are communicating with each other. Communication means, as we said the other day, learning together, sharing together, observing together, creating together. That is, really, that means communication. So we must, you and I, must both move together step by step, and not...

May we stop now? It is an hour and a quarter we have talked. You haven't talked but K has talked. But we have had a communication with each other, because we have established the basis of a communication in which there is no superior and the inferior, one who knows and one who does not know. May we get up? Apres vous: After you! (laughter)

...in English we have to understand the meaning of words, how they are used. And in this communication, that is, in listening to what is going to be said, either we share in what is being said or merely translate what is being said into ideas, into abstractions. Either we share together what is being said and not translate it into an ideology, into...

...No. I'm just using that. Sir, first see, I'm talking about the word 'communication', not conditioning. We'll come to that. I don't know if I understand it rightly , I am talking - we are talking about that word, 'communication', which means, as I said, to build together. Here, communication means building together, understanding together, working...

Listen not only verbally, and the meaning of the word, but also non-verbally - for communication is verbal and non-verbal, and since we are speaking in English, the words have definite meaning and if you don't understand the meaning of the word actually but interpret that word according to your particular conditioning then you will not be listening to what is being said.

...course not. Sir, when you hold a hand of another, you can hold it out of habit or of custom. Or you can hold it and communication can take place without a word, because both are at the given moment intense, communication has taken place, without a word. But we are not intense, passionate,...

K: I understand that, sir. But I want to find (laughs), not a drug, not a medicine, not a way, but there must be a communication between you and me who is the ordinary man, a communication so that the communication is so strong that very my act of listening to you and you communicating with me operates.

K: (Repeating) Could we go into communication and attention. All right, sir, let's talk about communication and attention. Any other thing?

...we go into that this morning? Can we freely enquire together into this question? Because communication and relationship always go together. If there is no communication there is no relationship, not only between you and the speaker but also between each other. If we merely remain at the verbal level, at the formal level, that communication is very...

So, the next question, which is much more difficult to answer - you have to have patience so far. Patience means - please understand, patience - I am using the word 'patient' in a particular sense. Patience means the absence of time. You understand? Generally patience means go slow, be patient, take time, don't react quickly, be quiet, take it...

K: Wait, wait, wait, wait. Patience, patience. The gentleman says, if I have understood him rightly, to bring about this order should we give first place to god. That's right, sir? That's a question isn't it?

K: What is real friendship, if in that there is no trust or respect. If there is no trust or respect, what is the meaning of real friendship? I don't know. (Laughter) If you haven't got respect and affection how can you have friendship? I don't quite understand the meaning of this question.

...of a guru is fear. Right? The respect that you have for your bosses, for your politicians, for your gurus, for your so-called higher authorities, that respect which is never shown to those below you, politically, religiously, morally, ethically, in business, is really a cowardice. Are you accepting all this? The word 'respect' means to look back....

...Nobody has said that to me, here or in India or anywhere else. Perhaps one or two have. But I'm asking you, out of politeness, kindness, etc., respect, what do you pay for something which is unpayable.

...give you comfort, which will psychologically make you feel secure. That you love, which is what you want, you love. Right? Be ruthless in this. So devotion is not love, which is different from respect. You understand? Devotion is totally different from respect. That is, to respect another, care for another, consideration for another. But you only...

As I said, we were going to talk this morning about religion, meditation, and to come upon something, if it is possible, which is not measurable, which is totally a different dimension. We talked somewhat about religion. Now we are going to find out what it means to meditate. I don't know what it means to you. If you had never heard that word, if...

...Yes, sir. You know, a word like religion, love, or god, has almost lost all its meaning. They have abused these words so enormously, and religion has become a vast superstition, a great propaganda, incredible beliefs and superstitions, worship of images made by the hand or by the mind. So when we talk about religion I would like, if I may, to be...

...in Venice or in Rome it's a marvellous sight. It's like a military thing operating, but beautiful. But that's not beauty as we've talked about the other day. So all that is not religion. Right? Intellect, which is the power to discern, the power to distinguish, to see what is true, what is false; that's the power of the intellect. And the world...

...we are going together find out what is meditation. Which is to ask what is a religious mind, what is religion? One can see what religion is not. Religion is not all the things that are going on in the world, the churches, look at what happens in the churches, in the cathedrals, in the temples, in the mosques, in the Tibetan shrines and so on,...

K: If you say that's not religion, and you really mean it - just a minute, old boy - if you say that's not religion and you really mean it, then you must find out what is religion, because man from the most ancient of times has said, what is all this, there must be something much greater than all this. From the most ancient Sumerians, the Greeks,...

K: Scrap books and conditions, sir, let's talk together freely. So I say to myself, Why? Is this the result of all this? Environment, culture, education, religion, the economic social structure which makes me consider myself first, my view, my union...

So what has religion to do with your daily life? If religion is something in the temple and all that, and your life is entirely different, what takes place? Theories, concepts, conclusions, which are entirely divorced from one's activity, business, science and so on. Naturally one becomes hypocritical. May I use that word without insulting? This...

K: Right. That we say, that is our life. Then what do you mean by religion, a religious life? You tell me. What is religion to you?

K: Gathering together all energy to be attentive; to be attentive, otherwise it's not religion. Religion is all the things - we'll discuss that when we come to it. So freedom means the sense of complete austerity and a sense of total negation of the observer.

K: Another problem which we ought to discuss - we said yesterday we would - religion, meditation, and if there is something sacred. We said we would talk about that.

...and actions. So sex becomes important when everything else becomes unimportant, when life, the whole of it, not just sex, life includes living, life includes what love is, what death is, the whole movement of living, when that has no meaning, then one fragment which you call sex, becomes extraordinarily important and vital. When you are not...

...discover what is false and what is true, and what is true in the false, one requires not the capacity to think clearly only, but the demand, the asking, questioning. So what is love? Would you say, love is desire? Would you say love is pleasure? Don't shake your heads, it's meaningless. Would you say love is attachment? Please, the speaker is...

Where there is suffering there is no love. How can you? So where there is desire, pleasure, fear, conflict, suffering, there can be no love. So it becomes very important to understand why human beings go through this year after year, century after century. Don't let's reduce it to some kind of romantic nonsense. It is an actual fact. When you lose...

So one asks at the end of it: what is love? You follow? Are we going along together? Is love desire? Is love sex? Is love attachment? Is love being concerned about oneself eternally? Is love jealousy? And can there be love when there is fear? Can there be love when there is only the search for pleasure? You understand all this? So we're going to...

K: Love, compassion, all right. That is the only thing that's holistic. I'm just discovering something for myself. Right? I say love is not thought, love is not pleasure. Don't accept, for god's sake that's the last thing. Right? Love is utterly unrelated to hate, jealousy, anger - all that. Love is really completely unbreakable. It's whole, and...

And is love desire? Is love pleasure? Is love an action in the field of the known? So what place has knowledge, or what is the relationship of knowledge with love? Can knowledge transform the human mind? Obviously not. What transforms human mind is the seeing and the action - not the seeing and the conclusion, the abstraction. Is this fairly...

...something very, very seriously, the heart must enter into its consideration. When the heart enters, that is when there is love to observe, love of watching, seeing, then when you see the truth of desire, time and thought, then there is no fear whatsoever. Then only there can be love. Fear and love cannot go together. Fear and pleasure go together...

...is beauty pleasure? And when there is self-expression in any form does it convey beauty? And is love pleasure? Is love, which has now almost become synonymous with sex, and its expressions and all the things involved in it, tenderness, forgetfulness, self-forgetfulness and so on and so on - when thought derives intense pleasure from it, is it...

So, we ought to ask, is love pleasure, is love desire, is love thought, can love ever be cultivated? Of course, not. And without love, this sense of compassion, the flame of it, the intelligence of it, life has very little meaning. You may invent a purpose for life, perfection and, you know, and all the rest of that business. But without this...

So, see what has taken place when we hear this question: I want to be loved, and I am not, I live in great anguish, what am I to do? That means one has no love in oneself. Then how can another love you - you understand? If you have no love and you are incapable then of receiving love - you understand? Love is not a vacuum, like a sense of...

So, by observing the vanity, you have discovered your reactions to it, and your reactions further reveal that you have an image about yourself and that image is a form of self-protection which is based on fear. And when you have become aware of that fear, again watch your response to that fear, either justifying it or cultivating courage. Now, if...

...No, no. As the gentleman, as he pointed out, Maria, please, don't explain it away, just see what he said. He says, when I attend to that fear, it disappears. And I ask, we asked, does that fear return, in another form. So doesn't that indicate - I'm just asking - that when there is attention, fear is not. So can I attend fear, which is taking...

Mary Zimbalist: But sir, one of the main things in fear, it seems to me, is a sense of self-doubt, a helplessness whereas to have the insight you are talking about, doesn't one already have to come to some grips with the fear, because fear is an inundating thing. When you have the power of that perception...

...No sir, no. First, please, get this one thing clear, at least: as anger is not different from you - which is so obvious isn't it? - is not fear part of you? And if it is part of you, what will you do? We are used to separating fear from ourselves and therefore acting upon fear - suppress it, run away from it, all the rest of it. But when fear is...

...may we together go into it. That is, can you observe your fear - this is not group therapy, this is not confession, I am not your guru, thank god! But we can together examine this fear, which seems to be part of our daily life - and whether one can be psychologically free and not be caught up in an illusion that you are free. That illusion comes...

Where there is fear man inevitably seeks something that will protect him, safeguard him, that will hold him in a sense of certainty, complete security, because he is basically frightened. And out of that fear we invent gods. Out of that fear we invent all the rituals, all the circus that goes on in the name of religion. All the temples in this...

If I am to die now, immediately, there is no fear. Right? It is finished. But I want to live another ten years, or another five years, and I hope nothing will happen in between that time. Right? So fear is time - do you realise this, sirs? - and thought. Right? No, please, don't - see this. This is very, very important. If you once understand...

K: So, can there be observation of this fact, which I've called fear because I have recognised it, the mind has recognised it, because it has had fear before. So through recognition and association it says, 'This is fear'.

...scientifically, but we have no compassion whatsoever. Compassion means passion for all human beings, and animals, nature. And how can there be compassion when there is fear, when the mind is constantly pursuing pleasure? So you want pleasure, fear, to control fear, put it under ground and also you want compassion - you want them all. You can't...

K: No, you haven't, I haven't made myself clear. If the entity, which is the fear, the anxiety, the guilt and all the rest of that, that entity has dissolved itself from fear and so on, what is there to experience?

...with the world, with the environment of which he is part. And until we understand this problem and find out for ourselves whether there is a possibility of completely ending conflict, totally, then we shall never be able to live at peace with ourselves and so with society. It's only a mind that is completely peaceful, not asleep, which has not...

...the next question is, which Mrs Lilliefelt put, which is: how does this flash come about? Let's begin the other way round. How does love come about? How does peace come about. Which is, peace being causeless, violence is cause, how does that causeless thing come about when my whole life is causation? (Pause) No, there is no 'how'. Right? There is...

...on this earth over fifty thousand years, and perhaps much longer or for less duration. During all this long evolution man has not found peace on earth - 'pacem in terris' has been preached long before Christianity, by the ancient Hindus and the Buddhists. And during all this time man has lived in conflict, not only conflict with his neighbour but...

...all want to end war, at least some people do. And pacem in terris, that is, peace on earth, in Latin, is not possible, apparently, in this world, in spite of demonstrations, in spite of all the preaching of the priests and religious books and so on, we can never have peace in this world apparently. And we never ask if one can live peacefully in...

We began these talks with the enquiry: religion and peace on earth require a great deal of intelligence. Peace on earth has not been possible for man for thousands and thousands of years, nor has religion - what is accepted as religion - brought peace to man. There have been religious wars, religions have killed people, blessed canons, warships,...

And also we ought to consider together, what is peace? The obvious meaning is not to have conflict, not to have pain, not to suffer, not to have everlasting struggle from the moment you are born till you die. That is, to have no problems at all and no conflict. Is that possible? Is it possible to live in this world, not run away from the world, is...

Man has evolved probably a million years or less or more biologically, and man has always been crying for peace on earth; pacem in terris, the old Latin phrase. And apparently there is no peace in the world; without peace we cannot possibly flower. We can possibly, not evolve, but see the extraordinary depth of life, the beauty of it; the...

...in a state of mind that is always comparing - bigger car, less car, more beautiful, less beautiful, more intelligent, less - you follow? - more money, less - more peace, less peace - God, truth - you follow? Why am I comparing? Please I am curious, you understand, I am learning. Why am I comparing? And I see this comparison has brought inadequacy...

We were talking about peace: why human beings who have lived on this earth for so many thousands and thousands of years have had no peace at all. There have been innumerable wars and probably there will be more wars. And why with all the technological knowledge we have acquired, and all the protestations of religions about peace, pacem in terris,...

...have talked about a great many things. We are together going into very complex problems this morning: why human beings have not been able to live at peace within themselves and so peace with the world. Why our daily life is in such confusion, conflict and misery and sometimes joy, why is it, after all these thousands of years, man has not found...

K: So we have to explore it. We have come to a point where we have said action born of limited knowledge is divisive, and therefore conflict arises where there is division. That's all we have stated. Then the next question arose: is there an action which is not limited? Right?

...that requires a great deal of attention, quiet enquiry, hesitant examination, not, 'Tell me what to do and I will do it'. Because everything is falling to pieces around us and there must be action of a totally different kind. Not action according to anybody, even according to the speaker. We are going in to find out for ourselves what is action,...

So the problem then is: what is action which is not always based on memory? You are following all this? Because action based on memory must inevitably lead to degeneracy. That is our problem, because human mind is degenerating, and one of the factors of that degeneration is conflict, is fear, is this everlasting pursuit of pleasure. All based on...

...would that answer many of the questions. Or, would you discuss action, action in daily life, the doing, the way of behaviour, the way of conduct, the way of a relationship in which all action takes place, is there an action that is so totally complete that it doesn't leave a sad remembrance? Is that the question,...

Before asking what shall we do, what action shall we take, we must first examine the causes. When we understand the causes, from that action takes place. But most of us are so eager to act, to do something about this mess, and we join groups, become social reformers, join the communist party, or the socialist party, or whatever party politically...

So the first thing is to find out what we mean by that word 'action', the doing. Do we mean that which has been done, or that which will be done, the action in the past, or the action in the future, or the action which is now taking place. This is action. Action isn't moving from here to there physically, or taking a hammer and a nail and putting...

So what we are going to do this evening, if we can, is to find out what is action. And please bear in mind we are not thinking in terms of right or wrong, there is only action, not right and wrong. Not action according to the Gita, the Bible, or Koran, or god knows what else - the communists, the socialists and all the rest of them. There is only...

So one asks the question, which is, is there an action which is not fragmentary and which does not contradict another action which is going to take place next minute.

...see I don't want to enter into the field of ideologies, theories. To me, I have no interest in it. But I really, in investigating I want to find out, perhaps I have found out but talking over together, is there an action in which the self is not? In daily life, not in nirvana, when I have reached freedom and all the rest of it, I want to do it in...

K: You see sir, that's why one must ask this essential question: what is action? Is it a repetition? Is it imitation? Is it an adjustment between 'what is' and 'what should be' or 'what has been'? Or is it a conformity to a pattern? Or to a belief, or to a formula? If it is, then inevitably there must be conflict. Because idea, action, there is an...

...also I would like to point out: I think we don't listen; we don't really try to find out what the other person is trying to say. And listening requires certain attention, care, affection. If I want to understand what you are saying I must listen to you, not block myself all the way, all the time. I must care for what you are saying, I must have...

K: That's it, sir. There is not even affection to understand something. If you and I had affection - if you had affection and I had affection for you, and I say, look, for god's sake, do look at this, and because you have affection for me, or love for me, and what I say becomes important to you.

...Do think about it a minute. We don't understand what relationship means. Because I come along and say, look, let us talk as two friends, which implies care, affection, love, consideration, involvement, commitment, and you sit there and say, 'You go on talking, but...' You would never say that to your wife or husband or girlfriend or boyfriend...

K: ...you protect it with affection, taking it in your lap, cuddling him or her, and holding his hand, you make him feel that he is loved, that he is cared for. That gives him a feeling, here is somebody who is looking after me, and there is security here.

Krishnamurti: Yes. I think that is affection, that is love. When you talk to my waking consciousness, it is hard, clever, subtle, brittle. And you penetrate that, say, all right, keep your own beastly little stuff, and you penetrate it with your look, with your affection, with all that feeling you have. That operates, not anything else.

...Ah, not we have to love. That is not an action of will. If there is to be an understanding of 'what is', and 'what is ' may be violence, greed, brutality, cruelty or affection or joy - awareness implies great care in looking. When you have a baby don't you - the mother cares infinitely with affection, gets up at two, three or four o'clock in the...

...me, is that a form of vanity? It's like a man who is vain, as most of us are, and out of that vanity we try to be humble. Is that humility? A man who is full of aggression, violence, tries to be modest. You understand? It's absurd, it's lost its meaning. Whereas, a man who is aggressive realises, sees what aggression has done in this world and all...

...in our relationship when you are nothing? You understand? You know what it means to be nothing? No ambition, which doesn't mean you vegetate, no competition, no aggression, no resistance, no barriers built by hurt - you are absolutely nothing. Then what is it to be related to another? Have you ever thought about all this, or is it all so...

K: No, just sir. This is really for half an hour, do please put your minds to this, I beg of you. Are you different from your aggression? Obviously you are not. You are aggression, it is part of you.

So we are saying, observe without direction, attachment, or aggression, or your violence. Observe it without any motive, direction, desire, just to observe it, and in that very observation there is an ending of it. And therefore you are inviting death while living. You follow? I wonder if you understand this? Not commit suicide, that's another...

K: Oh, no. No, no, no, no, you have not understood what we have said. Both arise, love and aggression, they have no formulas. Really, that is not what we are talking about.

THIRD QUESTION: How does one meet aggression and psychological attack from a close relative from whom one cannot escape? (Laughter)

So, when you understand this whole nature of experience, you are free from the outward stimulus which gives you experiences. Then if you also reject that, then you have the challenge inwardly, which creates its own experiences. That is, in meditation people see visions, and love to see all these childish things, which are fairly which is the...

K: You see, sir, do we learn anything from experience? We have had, since history began, written history, five thousand wars. I read it somewhere. Five thousand wars. Killing, killing, killing, maiming. And have we learned anything? Have we learned anything from sorrow? Man has suffered, have we learned anything from the experience of the agony of...

And again to be attached to an experience, to hold on to an experience, some experience that you have had, talking or walking by yourself in a wood, you suddenly come or feel this oneness with nature, that there is no division between you and the world about you, this sense of wholeness. It happens and that is an experience which is registered in...

K: I have experienced something yesterday that has left a mark. That is knowledge and with that knowledge I meet the next experience. So the next experience is translated in terms of the old and therefore that experience is never new.

So will you give up psychological securities to which you hold? Your belief, your dogma, your tradition, your prejudices, 'My experience is better than your experience', 'I know, you don't know'? You follow? All that, can you give it up?

K: Not experience. I doubt everybody's experience, including my own. But I am saying let's discuss that, not experience, then you are lost: my experience, your experience, but what is the relationship of the man who loves, in the sense we are talking about, and the man who hates? Just look at it sir. How can there be?

So then there is the authority of another, and the dependence on another; there is the authority of tradition, there is the authority of the past as memory, as experience, as knowledge. And there is the authority of an experience which is the immediate. Are you following all this? You have had an experience, and that becomes the authority. And...

Sirs, you see throughout the ages man has sought something which is beyond time, which is beyond thought, beyond all experience, something totally the origin of all things. He wanted it, he wanted to enquire, find out. And there were those people who said, 'I have found out, I will tell you all about it.' They were caught in that trap. And that is...

So knowledge, experience is limited. Knowledge is limited. That is clear if you observe historically the process of science, from the Galileo, from the ancient scientist to the modern scientist they have been gradually building up day after day, and based on experience. So knowledge is based on experience. So knowledge and experience are limited....

K: That's right, sir. I think, my experience is, as long as I remain a Hindu I am completely secure - that's my experience, I am that experience and that's what destroys biological survival. Can you give that up?

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