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And what is the relationship of thought to love? That is what you were asking madame. Love - this becomes rather difficult - love is free from thought. Love is not the product of thought. If it is, it is still part of desire, obviously. So love is independent, is free from all the activities, and chicanery, dishonesty, desires, sensations, sex.

remain two separate entities. So relationship means not only physical contact which is sexual, but having no image about each other. Therefore there is immediate, sensitive relationship in which there is love. Love is not remembrance. Love is not the picture which thought creates about her. That is not love. Love is not pleasure. I wonder if you

see, none of us want to do that. That means work. That means a great deal of energy. We don't want to do that but we talk about love. We say 'I love my God, I love my child, I love my country', which is all sheer hypocrisy. Or I say 'I love my social work, I love to help people', again which is all nonsense. So unless the mind is free completely,

playing. First tribal, limited, now it is global. So we are asking ourselves: is there an end to sorrow? Put this question seriously to yourself. Because where there is sorrow there cannot be love. There can be sympathy, pity, tolerance, empathy but generosity, pity, sympathy is not love. Love may contain all that or have all that but the parts

K: ...for some woman to put on that fur. And he will go back and say, 'I love my wife'. So. And we are trained to kill. All the Generals, they are preparing endlessly, means of killing others. That's our civilisation, you follow, sir? So, can a man who is ambitious, love?

are the other factors that bring sorrow in human life? I want to love. I love you and you don't love me, and I want more love from you, I feel I must be loved by you, you are the only person who can love me, nobody else. I shut the door on everybody else, but except you. I will keep my door open to you; and you look the other way. Doesn't this

One has to go really very deeply into the question of desire, will and love. We have talked for half an hour. I am not answering the questions. So perhaps we can do this on Saturday and Sunday because we have a lot to talk about, not only that, intelligence, love and the whole problem of pain and sorrow and death and meditation, religion, and all

K: Go slowly. Insecurity. You say, I am frightened of being insecure, so you exploit another to be secure, which you call love. Please remain with this fact, put your teeth into it to find out. If you can find this out, you will find a great many things

We said is love the opposite of pleasure, of attachment, of jealousy. If love is that, then that love contains jealousy, attachment and all the rest of it. Therefore love, seeing all the implications of attachment, pursuit of desire, the continuous reel of remembrances: I loved and I am not loved, I remember that particular sexual pleasure or that

we can go to the next subject. There can be no love if there is jealousy, hatred - no sense of antagonism. How can you kill another, if you really love - whether for your country, for your interest, for god or whatever it is, how can you kill another if you love? Please, this is all very serious - do consider all this, because we are living in a

K: No, you haven't, I haven't made myself clear. If the entity, which is the fear, the anxiety, the guilt and all the rest of that, that entity has dissolved itself from fear and so on, what is there to experience?.

K: We talked about the other day, fear. Fear is identified with the ego, with the 'me', with the whole structure of my psyche, it's part of my psyche, part of me. And fear also breeds guilt, various types of greed. And all this makes one rather nervous, one has temerity, shyness, a sense of withdrawing, and yet wanting to express oneself. So there

K: I'm asking, what has brought this fear into me, into my consciousness? I won't use that word because we'll have to go into that in a different way. What has brought this fear? And I won't leave it till I find it. You understand, sir? Because I've got the energy to do it. I don't depend on anybody, on any book, on any philosopher, nobody

Oh, do you support World Federation. Oh, madame. First we are answering the question what is fear. And we are going off on somebody asking do I support World Federation. Look: when I am afraid, I won't support anything, though I pretend to support. I pretend a great deal, I become dishonest, hypocrite when there is fear in me. I'll support world

that person. And when you observe that you are dependent, you see that the source of this dependence is fear: fear of not being able to stand alone, fear of making a mistake, fear of not following the right path, which is a guru, fear of not having comfort, not having somebody as a companion, not being able to depend on somebody. So through

So, if I want to find out if there is anything sacred, I must start very near. The very near is me. And can I free myself from fear, agony, sorrow, despair - all that? When there is freedom I can move, I can climb mountains.

in our lives, crisis in our consciousness. We are trying to stop a particular kind of war, nuclear war and all the rest of that of business, and that fear, that in finding security in division, that fear No, the desire to find security in division which creates fear, then that fear brings about wars. I hope we all following all

you see, one dare not enter into this with words because you capture the words and you are destroyed. Words have a meaning. Look, sir, I'll show you something. There is fear. Right? Is the word 'fear', fear? Or has the word created fear? Think it out, think it out, don't say no. There is fear. Is the word 'fear' or has the word created fear? So

If I am to die now, immediately, there is no fear. Right? It is finished. But I want to live another ten years, or another five years, and I hope nothing will happen in between that time. Right? So fear is time - do you realise this, sirs? - and thought. Right? No, please, don't - see this. This is very, very important. If you once understand

of itself, look at itself without any division? Then there is no need for analysis or for the hidden things to be exposed, you see the whole thing. Therefore in that observation you may discover fear. Fear and pleasure are the two principal things in us, driving forces, demanding more and more and more pleasure, and warding off fear. Right? Now

have talked about a great many things. We are together going into very complex problems this morning: why human beings have not been able to live at peace within themselves and so peace with the world. Why our daily life is in such confusion, conflict and misery and sometimes joy, why is it, after all these thousands of years, man has not found

in its entirety, they listen partially - agree in the sense, go together up to a certain distance, and stop there. If man really says I must have peace in the world, therefore I must live peacefully, then there is peace in the world. But he doesn't want to live in peace, he does everything opposite to that - his ambition, his arrogance, his silly

years or more. Religions have also, except perhaps Buddhism and Hinduism, have created wars - a hundred heretics, burnt them, destroyed them. And so man has lived on this earth without any peace. And to live in peace appears to be almost impossible - to live without conflict, without aggression, not only in personal relationships, but also with

So what is peace and how can we establish and lay the foundation so that we build on that - psychologically speaking? You understand sirs, we are talking over together. I am not pointing out. The speaker is not the authority but in talking over together things become very clear. If we can talk over together without any bias, without any prejudice,

you ever enquired into what is silence? What is silence? What is peace? Is peace between two wars? That's what's happening: what we call peace, it's between two wars. This war, like the next war, is to end all wars. Do you understand that? You have understood that phrase? This war, like the next war, is to end all wars. That is, is peace between

face facts and not fiddle about with ideas, beliefs, faith and all that business. But actually deal with what we have, that is our fears, our anxieties, our jealousies, our antagonism, and great deal of pretensions, hypocrisy, worshipping peace and killing another. There is that word in Latin, which the Catholic hierarchy have been repeating for

How does one find peace in the world, and in oneself? I am sure one has asked this question of oneself: to live completely peacefully in relationship to others, not isolate oneself, that is fairly simple and also it has its own dangers. The dangers are that you become more and more self-centred, or commit yourself to some symbol, a figure, or to

pointing out the other day, mankind has suffered thousands of wars, wars that seem to have no end. We have left it to the politicians all over the world to bring about peace, and what they are doing, if you have followed them, will never bring peace. We are all preparing for war. When you prepare you are going to have some kind of blow up,

Sir, every religion has talked about it - right sir? Books have been written about it. Believe in god, you will have peace. Follow this path, you will have peace. Follow this guru, you will have peace. Follow this particular doctrine, and so on. Mankind has done all this, various form - be a Christian, be a - you know, all the rest of it - man

of what is happening around us in the world, and the fact that most of us are concerned with ourselves. And in a world that has no peace whatsoever, there is such chaos, disorder, great danger, terrorism, threats of war - these are all facts. And in this world, living every day of our lives, with all the turmoil, with all the labour that man has

So I am saying myself, this being crippled psychologically can that be made whole? That is the question, which needs action. I can't sit down and say I will make it whole. Or go off into a monastery. It can't be done. It needs action, I have to do something. Right?

So from that: is there an action which is not fragmentary but whole? An action which is not controlled by thought or by measurement or by the past in human relationship? Right? Are you following all this?.

and so on. We went into all that. And where these things exist, we said, there is no love. And when our action is based on merely thought, which is memory, then that action is incomplete, and being incomplete it must invariably bring about conflict. Any action that is not total, whole, holistic, complete, must breed contradiction. We went into

to money, to pleasure, and thought which has accumulated so much information, both outwardly and inwardly. So I hope you are asking with me, with the speaker, what is the place of thought and what is its relationship to action. Because life is action, relationship is movement in action. And is there an action which is not bound by time as thought

have you ever gone into this question: what is the necessity of will at all? When you see something very clearly is there an action of will? Do you understand my question? Look sir, will as act is a pattern of conformity, conformity to a pattern, to an ideal, to a dictum. So, when you understand the whole structure of conformity, then is there an

educationally, in business, in the whole of life, responsible for the total behaviour, not in a particular direction. I think there is great deal of difference when I say, when one says I am responsible for my action. That means you are responsible for your action according to the idea that you have preconceived about

K: Sir, listen to this - what is action? Action means the doing, isn't it? Which is always in the present. Right? Right? The acting is always in the present. Now what is my action based on? On the past, isn't it? No? Please, discuss, isn't my action based on the past, on my memory, on my experience, on my idea of what I should do, on my

Action has some kind of motive, pleasant or unpleasant, rewarding or painful, or under pressure, driven by various influences. So one has to find out what we mean by action. Is there an action which has no motive, which is not under pressure, which is not, threatened and therefore act, which is not rewarding and therefore painful? So one has to

K: I mean, you're a doctor, and you say my action is to attend to the patient. Or a professor says, I must act. I want to find out, if I may ask you, I am asking myself too, what is action which is not separative, you understand?

Please this is rather difficult, because we are trying to find out if there is an action which is not based on the past, and therefore divisive. Is there an action which is complete, whole, not caught in the net of time? Are we meeting each other? A little bit?

K: ...you protect it with affection, taking it in your lap, cuddling him or her, and holding his hand, you make him feel that he is loved, that he is cared for. That gives him a feeling, here is somebody who is looking after me, and there is security here

Krishnamurti: Yes. I think that is affection, that is love. When you talk to my waking consciousness, it is hard, clever, subtle, brittle. And you penetrate that, say, all right, keep your own beastly little stuff, and you penetrate it with your look, with your affection, with all that feeling you have. That operates, not anything else

Ah, not we have to love. That is not an action of will. If there is to be an understanding of 'what is', and 'what is ' may be violence, greed, brutality, cruelty or affection or joy - awareness implies great care in looking. When you have a baby don't you - the mother cares infinitely with affection, gets up at two, three or four o'clock in the

Do think about it a minute. We don't understand what relationship means. Because I come along and say, look, let us talk as two friends, which implies care, affection, love, consideration, involvement, commitment, and you sit there and say, 'You go on talking, but...' You would never say that to your wife or husband or girlfriend or boyfriend

K: That's it, sir. There is not even affection to understand something. If you and I had affection - if you had affection and I had affection for you, and I say, look, for god's sake, do look at this, and because you have affection for me, or love for me, and what I say becomes important to you

also I would like to point out: I think we don't listen; we don't really try to find out what the other person is trying to say. And listening requires certain attention, care, affection. If I want to understand what you are saying I must listen to you, not block myself all the way, all the time. I must care for what you are saying, I must have

K: No, just sir. This is really for half an hour, do please put your minds to this, I beg of you. Are you different from your aggression? Obviously you are not. You are aggression, it is part of you

K: Oh, no. No, no, no, no, you have not understood what we have said. Both arise, love and aggression, they have no formulas. Really, that is not what we are talking about

me, is that a form of vanity? It's like a man who is vain, as most of us are, and out of that vanity we try to be humble. Is that humility? A man who is full of aggression, violence, tries to be modest. You understand? It's absurd, it's lost its meaning. Whereas, a man who is aggressive realises, sees what aggression has done in this world and

So we are saying, observe without direction, attachment, or aggression, or your violence. Observe it without any motive, direction, desire, just to observe it, and in that very observation there is an ending of it. And therefore you are inviting death while living. You follow? I wonder if you understand this? Not commit suicide, that's another

THIRD QUESTION: How does one meet aggression and psychological attack from a close relative from whom one cannot escape? (Laughter).

in our relationship when you are nothing? You understand? You know what it means to be nothing? No ambition, which doesn't mean you vegetate, no competition, no aggression, no resistance, no barriers built by hurt - you are absolutely nothing. Then what is it to be related to another? Have you ever thought about all this, or is it all so

I am going into it. So in meditation there is no experience. Right? I wonder if you see that. This is very important to understand. Experience implies, the word 'experience' means to go through, not to hold something back, to go through and finish. The meaning of that word. And also in experience several things are implied. When you have an

with our own successes, failures and giving ourselves great importance in doing little things - whether all that can end and discover something totally new. Not only discover, but experience. One must be very careful in the usage of that word 'experience'. There is really nothing to experience. If you go beyond time, if that is possible, and

American girls and boys, and it is now spreading throughout the world, have sex very early. Don't be shy, this is happening. They want to have all the experience immediately - swimming, anything - experience - skiing. So they want, as they are young, they want to experience everything at once in a short time. Right? So as they grow older, see

So is our approach free from our conclusions, from our experience, from our knowledge? If it is from our experience, from our knowledge, you have already answered the problem, which will be according to time, which will be according to your conditioning. But if you come to it freely, to observe, then there is immediate action

So without experience there is no knowledge. The scientists are adding everyday something new. Please follow this carefully, if you don't mind. Experience is limited. Right? Because we are adding more and more to it, through knowledge. Experience, knowledge stored in the brain as memory and then that is the beginning of thought. Right? Am I right?

K: I have experienced something yesterday that has left a mark. That is knowledge and with that knowledge I meet the next experience. So the next experience is translated in terms of the old and therefore that experience is never new

And again to be attached to an experience, to hold on to an experience, some experience that you have had, talking or walking by yourself in a wood, you suddenly come or feel this oneness with nature, that there is no division between you and the world about you, this sense of wholeness. It happens and that is an experience which is registered in

And the experience must be recognised, which means it has already had an inclination of it. So a mind that is free of the individual - may I go on? - has no experience. Won't somebody catch me in this?

No, sir. That's why the difficulty. Wait, sir, let's finish this first. I am unhappy, miserable, sorrow - laden with it. And I want to experience something which has no sorrow because that is my craving. I want to have an ideal, a principle, or an end, which by struggling I ultimately get that. That's my craving. And I want to experience that and

Silence! Have you ever watched one thought chasing another thought, a series of associations, a series of memories, holding on to your own experience? The other day, in America, a person whom we have known for some time said that that person lived according to his experience, his experience has told him-right? His experience was real, actual, very deep, and that experience is all important to him.

K: That's what I'm I am coming to that, madame. Look at it, sir. He is attracted to it, attracted to all that, and he won't listen to my talk. He kind of avoids me. Right? Don't you know all this, as parents? No?

K: Are you saying no? When are you then generous? When are you feeling affectionate, kind, generous, sympathetic? Or do you never feel it? Or only occasionally?.

So what will bring us together? Belief won't, authority of any kind is rejected, the reward by another as a means for you to change is also rejected. And if you say you are going to be punished in heaven for not obeying, you say 'Go away, don't be silly', and you pass him. So what will make us come together?

K: No, but that's not I'm saying, the source of fear of every kind that human beings have is born from thought. Will you listen to that statement, as you would listen when I say I really love you? Because it's too simple, your mind immediately says, 'No, that's too damn simple, it's not, it is much more complicated than that'

K: Who invented exams? (Laughter) The Chinese? The Mandarins? I believe they were the original people who kind of invented this monstrous system.

JK: Yes, it is the activity of thought. Now if I consciously meditate, practise, do all this kind of what I call nonsense, then you are making the brain conform to another series of patterns.

when given an opportunity it breaks through. Which is it? I've seen so many people in - I've lived a long time - from the age of fifteen I've seen this happen, with people of my own age - begin beautiful, you know, and gradually finish, destructive, cruel, brutal, self-centred, ugly, drunk.

Sir, we have the idea, a concept, a tradition that I am different from my anger. I am the atman and all that kind of stuff, I am different from everything, I am the watcher. Right? I am the controller. As that gentleman points out very clearly, that if I don't do anything now, that is, I won't be attached, I won't do anything about my attachment,

K: You are anger at that moment. You are envy at that moment. And so there are many, many moments you are. Right? You are your anger, you are your name, you are your bank account, if unfortunately you have a bank account, you are your family you are your society, you are your god - you are, you invented all this. So, there is no 'you' separate

it. Before I am aware or anything, I say to myself, is it possible for me to watch - casually, I'm playing with it, I am having a game with myself. I am watching the movement of anger arising. I think that's fairly simple. Right? I think you've noticed all that, haven't you? No,

So the hurt is not different from me, the 'me' is the image, and that image gets hurt, so I am that image. Like anger is not different from me, I am anger. I might think I am different but in actuality I am anger. So do you see the truth of it - not the idea of it? the actual truth that when you are angry that anger is you

what happens when you when the observer is the observed. You understand? When the anger is me, then what takes place? Have you enquired into this or you just say, 'Yes, I am the observer, the observed'? Meaningless. But to find out or experience, go into it and find out if anger is always different from you. That has been the tradition, that has

K: Wait, careful, don't agree so quickly. You are not different from all that. Right? Are you different from anger? No, of course not. So you are anger. Right?

K: How do I know that anger is a fact and the opinion about anger is a conclusion. Right? Don't you know? The opinion, the judgement about anger is a conclusion. And the fact I'm angry is a fact. For the love of god

K: Sir, look at it in yourself. At the moment of jealousy, or of anger, or of envy, or of hate, whatever it be, happiness, at that second there is no division, is there?.

We are saying: what takes place when the observer is the observed which is anger? You can test this out for yourself. Don't accept a thing the speaker is saying, because if you accept, repeat, then you are second-hand human beings, which you are. So, please have the courtesy, the dignity, the intensity not to accept anything, psychologically. So,

I am anger, am I not? Anger is not something separate from me. I am greed, envy, anxiety. Right? I like to think that is something separate over which I have control. But the actual fact is I am all that - even the controller is me. Right? So there is no division between greed, anger, jealousy, and so on - that is me, that is the observer. Right?

lack of love, and to have no psychological fear at all. All this implies that one must stand alone. There is a difference between isolation and aloneness, between loneliness and being able to stand by yourself clearly, unconfused, uncontaminated.

Sir, I don't know what is happening to most of the people all the time. But I am saying as one human being we are so conditioned in the pattern of achievement, whether in business, in religion, in any way, we are conditioned to achieve. Now in becoming aware of this conditioning, then you will find in that awareness if you are choosing, if you

K: So instead of going through all that business why don't you find out, let's find out what is thought, whether it can end, what is implied. You follow? Dig!

K: Isn't this what is happening in life? Don't say, it is not my business if you are a Communist. It is my business to see if we can live in security, in peace in the world, we are human beings, supposed to be intelligent. Why should I be committed to anything?

K: Could we start: why are we fragmented? Why do we look at life and all our actions and our business, whatever it is, always this fragment, business, religion, love, hate, you follow? It is all so broken up. Why do we do this?

K: Why does one, I mean, if one is afraid, do you, does one want to go really deeply inside the whole business of it, and be free from it? Does one demand that? Or we don't know how to deal with fears and so we run away from it, avoid it and explain it away. Is that it, we never really want to go into it and completely dissolve it. Is that what is

must create disorder. Because being tied implies dependence, the escape from one's own loneliness, fear, and all that. Now to have total insight into this attachment, that very insight clears away all attachment.

whole energy to find out whether it is possible to eradicate totally fear? Fear has many forms, one of the major factors of fear is attachment - attachment to a person, attachment to an ideal, to a belief, attachment to a piece of furniture - you know what attachment is. And where there is attachment there is inevitably the fear of losing. And is

Hold on to them, or let them go? Or if you find yourself attached to somebody, to some ideals, to some belief, if you are at all aware and familiar with your attachment, how far one has let them go, knowing all attachment leads to a great deal of sorrow, and pain, and all the rest of it, which we went into.

But if you see the truth of this continuity, then will you ask the question: how is one to end attachment? Take one simple thing, like attachment, how is one to end attachment? You understand my question? How to end attachment without conflict, without will, without the pressure of the wife, the husband, the insurance man, and so on, so on, so on, without the pressure of anything, how will you end - is there an ending?.

Not say well, I will find out gradually when I am dead and buried, or just before what attachment Now, today, to find out while you are sitting there listening to yourself, to be free completely from all attachment - from your wife, from your husband, from your girl - attachment - do you understand? Can you? Not resist it, not throw it away - I am going to fight it, I am going to exercise my will to resist and so on, so on, so on.

it, not push it away or run away, just face it. And then see what happens when you face a relationship which actually is attachment - let's use that word for the moment to cover a whole field - face that attachment, without the interference of thought, without any motive, without any direction. Then see what takes place. We are not willing to do

When you end an attachment - please, we are not talking theoretically, or in abstraction, or theoretically, but actually, to end, say for instance your attachment to your guru, the attachment to some kind of belief, when you end it what takes place? You understand my question? Have you ever ended anything without any motive, without any conflict, to end? Because without ending there is no new beginning.

Have you ever ended anything without explanation, without resistance, without seeking a reward or punishment, end something? Have you? Have you ever ended completely attachment? That's what it means to die, to end. You can't when death comes, all that is cut off, your attachment to a person. So the significance of death in its most profound sense

So when there is freedom from attachment there is love. You understand? No you don't. That means responsibility, so that means order. So can you - realising one of the factors of confusion in our life, of our disorder and misery, is this attachment to ideas, to beliefs, to ideals, to one's country and so on, to wife, all that - can one be free of

Or if there is an attachment as an individual for another individual, for an object, for an idea, and there is the ending of that attachment - is there any recollection, remembrance, recording of that attachment? Because I think it is important to find this out, for it may lead us to some other quality of a mind that is whole, not fragmented.

first of all is it possible to be free of sorrow? Now, when we use the word 'freedom', it is not freedom from something. You understand? We always want to be free from something, free from every kind of irritation and so on. But we are talking of a freedom that is not from, or away from. Please understand this a little bit carefully because we

and then come to a conclusion they are all more or less the same. I do not mean that. I do not mean by analysing either. But to observe that the acceptance of spiritual authority is destructive to freedom. And without freedom there is no observation. When you observe that way, in that moment of observation the whole nature of authority is

So, a mind that is willing to examine this question deeply must be free to look, and therefore must be free from saying to itself, it is possible, or, it is not possible. So, to examine this question you begin with freedom, freedom is not at the end. Right?

So there must be freedom from fear, from hurts, from every kind of thing human beings have put together. There must be freedom, you understand, not just words. 'India must be free from the rest of the world'. That's just nonsense. Nobody can live by themselves, they need a friend, they need somebody to help them

First of all, there must be freedom to look, freedom to observe, if there is or if there is not - we cannot possibly assume anything. We cannot hope for anything if there is any assumption, any hope, any fear, then the mind is distorted, then the mind cannot possibly see very clearly. So freedom is absolutely necessary to find out; even in a

So if freedom is not all that, that is, there is only freedom when there is absolute non-identification with anything, with the church, with the gods, with beliefs, with the statue - you follow? - with nothing, then what are we, as human beings? Do you follow my question? I will go into it.

And when there is that freedom, the questioner asks, what is relationship then? Isn't it, sir? What is then relationship in that freedom - if you have such a freedom? First have that freedom and find out. But without having that freedom we are asking, what is relationship. I am not trying to belittle it. But the fact is, our minds are occupied

to observe oneself, we said, one must be free to look. Freedom implies freedom from prejudice, belief, dogma, conclusion, so that you can observe yourself, otherwise you will see what you want to see, or deny what you see. Right? So to observe there must be freedom. That's simple. Now can we do this as we are talking? Can we, wanting to

So to look, to learn about oneself there must be freedom from all conclusion. I am ugly, I don't want to look at myself. I don't know what I shall find in myself. I am afraid to look at myself. You know all the things that we come up with. So, can one observe without any sense of condemnation? Because if there is condemnation it is one of the

So, we are asking whether there is freedom at all within the area of knowledge which is the brain, the mind, because if there is no freedom there, there cannot possibly be love. It is only a man that is completely, absolutely free from the past that can fully comprehend or be in that state of mind where there is love, compassion, intelligence. So

the reaction. You see something in the window and you want it. What has taken place? The seeing of that dress, that trouser, that coat, that car, that woman, that man, or whatever it is - seeing, the sensation, the contact and say, 'I like that, that's exciting'. Which is, thought creates an image, you sitting in the car and driving. You follow?

Ah, you don't understand the word 'technology'. Technique - to do something, say for instance you want to build a car, and you must know all the parts, put them together, they must all work together. I have dismantled a car, put it all to pieces, and then put it all together hoping it will work. But it did work. Right? Learning about all the

That's right, sir, that's right. What do we mean by danger? A car is coming towards you as you are crossing the road and you might die and all the rest of it, so you move away from it. Self-preservation - the instinct to preserve one's being, both physiologically as well as psychologically. Now is not conflict similar to that? Let's keep it very

that: which is, to understand desire, desire is sensation - I will go into it, I will explain it a little bit. There is seeing the tree, the woman, the man, the car, the politician who is right on the top, or the guru who says, 'I know'. So perception, seeing, then contact, touching, then out of that sensation. Right? Is this clear? Then what

I don't know. That is, there are events in one's life, happenings, that appear to be a chance, happens by chance. Events that occur in random, you know, not knowing, it happens. Is that happening new, totally unexpected, or is that happening the result of unexamined, hidden, unconscious events? Just a minute, just a minute. I happen to meet you,

K: Of course. Therefore find out, sir. Look: one is going north and you realise going the same direction is no change at all. So you say change then means going quite the opposite, which is south. But if you keep on going south it will be the same thing

cells, all that is me. And I am that. So I am humanity. That has to me tremendous meaning. And I am there and I say, is there any change at all possible? I thought change existed in climbing the hill and going to the source, but I find I am still there. I have never left it. I thought by going up to the source I would find the whole explanation

So the question then arises: what is change? Do you understand? If I am greedy now, or anger, I have been envious, jealous, I have got a great many hurts, if there is no radical mutation now I will be exactly the same tomorrow. It is logical, sane, therefore I ask myself, what is change? You understand? Is there such thing as change? You

David Bohm: Well, I thought that perhaps we could go - we raised several questions after these discussions. One was the nature of this ground that we discussed, whether we could come to it and whether it has any interest in human beings. And also we discussed the possibility that there could be a change in the physical behaviour of the brain.

The inner is the result of the outer. If you want to change society, which is corrupt, which is immoral, which is destructive, which is totally ugly as it is, one has to change the individual who's created this society, the human being - not the individual - the human being who has created this society. You understand this? But what are we doing?

do you listen to all this? That outward pressure is not going to change, inward giving yourself over to a presence, a reality, to god, to this, or to that, is still the desire which drives you to forget yourself, but the self is still there, only covered up. So do you listen to these statements. Right? Or it doesn't mean any thing at all? So

So some of you have listened for many years and do we listen and therefore bring about a change, or you have got used to the words and just carry on? So we are asking: what will make man, a human being who has lived for so many million years, carrying on the same old pattern, inherited the same instincts, self preservation, fear, security, sense of self concern which brings about great isolation, what will make that man change? A new god? A new form of entertainment? A new religious football? New kind of circus with all the - you know - with all that stuff? What will make us change? Sorrow apparently has not changed man, because we have suffered a great deal, not only individually but collectively as a whole of mankind we have suffered an enormous amount - wars, disease, pain, death.

various influences, desires, purposes, and if that isn't suitable, one is driven in another direction. And this constant movement from one degree to another degree is called progress, change, and all kinds of things - acquiring knowledge, moving. Right? So we are asking if that is change at all. We are discussing change in the sense, deep

That is, to be aware of 'what is' in oneself. Right? One may be conscious that one is envious, or violent, and to change, to bring about a change in that violence you need time. Is that so? You are following this? Please, are you? Is there somebody to whom I can talk and who'll tell me they understand?

K: Sir, do you mean to say the generals, the admirals, the politicians all over the world, are going to change by listening to you and me? Certainly not. What we are talking about is, if you are serious, if there is the real deep understanding that society must change, not according to any pattern, break away from the Judaism, the Christianity,

K: Now wait a minute, Scott, do you question why you don't see the whole nature and structure of fear? Or do you say, I don't see, I only see part of it, not the whole of it. Do you question why you don't see it?

So one has to understand very, very deeply the nature and the structure of thought. If you have not understood it you can't meditate. You can fiddle around with it

And also we must find out for ourselves what is the relationship between nature and each of us. That's part of religion. You may not agree but consider it, go into it. Have you any relationship with nature, with the birds, with the water of that river? Not that the river is holy - all rivers are holy, getting more and more polluted. You may call

K: Which is, have you, who have understood or seen the truth that you are an individual and therefore no longer - are you still carrying the memories, the structure, the nature of your remembrance, your past, all that, in your mind? Yes, sir, this is a real question, don't.

K: Completely, specially in big towns, and even in small villages, and hamlets man is always outwardly going, outward, pursued by his own thought, and so he has more or less lost touch with nature. Nature means nothing to him. It is very nice, very beautiful. Once I was standing with a few friends and my brother many years ago at the Grand Canyon,

K: So we talked, I spent hours, we discussed, we went into it. Gradually he saw. He said, 'Quite right'. So, sir, unless we understand the nature and the structure of appetite and desire, which are more or less the same, we cannot understand very deeply pleasure.

K: Now here, I have explained for an hour and a quarter, in discussion, the nature and the structure of thought. Right? And when you watch the nature and the structure of thought, see where it is important, where it is not important, see the truth of that - you follow? - the truth of its operation and its non-operation, then there is a different

K: We are doing it - find out, sir. But you haven't - have you lost have you had an insight into the nature of the individual and his organisations? Finished. If you have understood that, seen the truth of it, finished, you can never enter into that

And we are going to talk about together the nature of what we consider love. This has been a question that has existed among the ancient Egyptians, the ancient Hindus, and recently the Christian world and the Islamic concept; they have all preached, talked about loving your neighbour, and so on. This has been asserted, religiously, in all the

Yes. What is the nature of the psyche? What is the nature of a total human being, as it is now, and whether that total human being can be transformed, can be changed? After all you have a student who comes to you, ignorant of mathematics, history, whatever it is, and you educate him so that he has a different mind at the end of ten years. He is

more orderly, strict and not make it into another resort for amusement, please. Though it has been announced several times, that music that goes on, what is called music - Bong(?) is it? - thumping on the drums and so on went on until half past ten last night. So please be courteous, careful of others and also, if one may point out, wherever K

Rien n'est completement. Look sir, when you listen to music, there is the beauty of it, the romanticism of it, the remembrance of it, hearing it in different places, and the association that it evokes, that music, with whom you heard it, how you talked about it, what the critics said about it and so on. So when your mind is occupied then the

K: Go and listen to music. The moment that music stops you are back to your images. This is all so childish! Take drugs, that also creates various images

K: Thought, quite right. But sir, to go so profoundly it requires tremendous, not only courage, but the sense of constant pursuing the same stream.

K: No, no, sir. Is courage the opposite of fear? That is, if fear is non-existent is it courage? Or it is something totally different?.

I am not, the speaker has never been pessimistic or optimistic, he is just showing something to you: that the computers can take over all that man has done - almost, except the computers can't look at the beautiful tree, or the evening star, single, alone in the sky, or the morning light on the waters. When a machine can take over all that you are

in English we have to understand the meaning of words, how they are used. And in this communication, that is, in listening to what is going to be said, either we share in what is being said or merely translate what is being said into ideas, into abstractions. Either we share together what is being said and not translate it into an ideology, into

course not. Sir, when you hold a hand of another, you can hold it out of habit or of custom. Or you can hold it and communication can take place without a word, because both are at the given moment intense, communication has taken place, without a word. But we are not intense, passionate,

with the psyche, the mind, and from there moving outwards. I don't know if we are communicating with each other. Communication means, as we said the other day, learning together, sharing together, observing together, creating together. That is, really, that means communication. So we must, you and I, must both move together step by step, and not

all these questions of yourself. If you have - I am not suggesting that you should, or that you must, but as two friends talking over together, each points out to the other, asks questions of each other, doubts what the other fellow is saying, so there is interaction between the two, there is a communication. And communication implies not only a

You know that word, 'communication' is very important to understand. Communication means building together, creating together. The word itself means that. And here we are trying to communicate, the speaker is trying to communicate with you, who are the listener, which means the listener and the speaker are creating together. Therefore, you're not

K: (Repeating) Could we go into communication and attention. All right, sir, let's talk about communication and attention. Any other thing?

we go into that this morning? Can we freely enquire together into this question? Because communication and relationship always go together. If there is no communication there is no relationship, not only between you and the speaker but also between each other. If we merely remain at the verbal level, at the formal level, that communication is

Listen not only verbally, and the meaning of the word, but also non-verbally - for communication is verbal and non-verbal, and since we are speaking in English, the words have definite meaning and if you don't understand the meaning of the word actually but interpret that word according to your particular conditioning then you will not be listening to what is being said.

No. I'm just using that. Sir, first see, I'm talking about the word 'communication', not conditioning. We'll come to that. I don't know if I understand it rightly , I am talking - we are talking about that word, 'communication', which means, as I said, to build together. Here, communication means building together, understanding together, working

May we stop now? It is an hour and a quarter we have talked. You haven't talked but K has talked. But we have had a communication with each other, because we have established the basis of a communication in which there is no superior and the inferior, one who knows and one who does not know. May we get up? Apres vous: After you! (laughter)

So, the next question, which is much more difficult to answer - you have to have patience so far. Patience means - please understand, patience - I am using the word 'patient' in a particular sense. Patience means the absence of time. You understand? Generally patience means go slow, be patient, take time, don't react quickly, be quiet, take it

K: Wait, wait, wait, wait. Patience, patience. The gentleman says, if I have understood him rightly, to bring about this order should we give first place to god. That's right, sir? That's a question isn't it?

of a guru is fear. Right? The respect that you have for your bosses, for your politicians, for your gurus, for your so-called higher authorities, that respect which is never shown to those below you, politically, religiously, morally, ethically, in business, is really a cowardice. Are you accepting all this? The word 'respect' means to look back.

K: What is real friendship, if in that there is no trust or respect. If there is no trust or respect, what is the meaning of real friendship? I don't know. (Laughter) If you haven't got respect and affection how can you have friendship? I don't quite understand the meaning of this question

give you comfort, which will psychologically make you feel secure. That you love, which is what you want, you love. Right? Be ruthless in this. So devotion is not love, which is different from respect. You understand? Devotion is totally different from respect. That is, to respect another, care for another, consideration for another. But you only

Nobody has said that to me, here or in India or anywhere else. Perhaps one or two have. But I'm asking you, out of politeness, kindness, etc., respect, what do you pay for something which is unpayable.

all, what is this mind that has created this present India? Not only the religion, the superstition, the gurus, the worship of idols, the pujas, the infinite number of rituals, which are all called religion, which are not religion at all, and the corruption, the tradition handed down. The word 'tradition' means to hand out, to give to another and

if you have ever looked at the word 'reviving'. You can only revive something that's dead or dying. Nothing living, you can't revive a living thing. And in this country they are reviving religion. And also they are doing the same thing in different parts of the world. And there is division between nationalities, religion, economic, and so

The word 'religion', the root of it, has not been established. I think from observing and looking into various dictionaries, it really means gathering together all energy to find out the truth. I think that is what it means, after looking at various French, English, Italian dictionaries. It implies also diligence and negligence. A mind must be

Is religion all the things that thought has put together? The rituals, the robes, the gurus, the perpetual repetition, prayers and the whole thing, is that religion? Or is it a big business concern? There is a temple in South India that makes a million dollars every third day. You understand what I am saying? Every third day that temple gathers

K: You see when we have divorced conduct from religion, which we have, divorced relationship from religion, which we have, divorced death from religion, which we have, divorced love from religion, when we have made love into something sensuous, something that is pleasurable, then religion, which is the factor of regeneration, disappears in man.

K: Scrap books and conditions, sir, let's talk together freely. So I say to myself, Why? Is this the result of all this? Environment, culture, education, religion, the economic social structure which makes me consider myself first, my view, my union.

K: Another problem which we ought to discuss - we said yesterday we would - religion, meditation, and if there is something sacred. We said we would talk about that

So what has religion to do with your daily life? If religion is something in the temple and all that, and your life is entirely different, what takes place? Theories, concepts, conclusions, which are entirely divorced from one's activity, business, science and so on. Naturally one becomes hypocritical. May I use that word without insulting? This

K: That's very important because religion, at least the meaning of word is to gather together to be attentive. That is the true meaning of that word, religion, I have looked it up in a dictionary

And why has man always talked about religion? From the ancient Egyptians and before them, religion has played an extraordinary part in life - why? Is it that we are seeking happiness, peace, an end which will not be destructive, secure, peaceful, and demanding that and not finding it in life, not finding all that in our daily life, we project.

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