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    K: Now go into it, sir. Disorder is a large word, let us look at it. When you see that you are violent, and that violence is not different from you, you are that violence - right? - what takes place? Let us look at it round the other way.

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    And how do I look at that violence? As a censor who condemns violence? Or justifies violence? Or one who is not capable of dealing with that violence, therefore escapes from it? How do I look at myself, how do I look at that violence? Please do it. Are you looking at it as an observer who is different from violence? The observer who is separate,...

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    K: Yes, that is what I am saying because I am interested in pointing out. History is the story of yourself - the violence, the hatreds, the jealousies, you know, the whole thing.

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    ...last, whatever it is, I would like to, if I may, talk about a great many things. First, as one observes what is going on right round the world, both economically and socially, and in the human being, there is really a great deal of confusion, mischief, and violence. These are obvious facts. And the politicians perhaps encourage it, and the...

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    So please bear in mind through all these talks that we are going to have for the next three weeks, every Saturday and Sunday and dialogues on Tuesdays and Thursdays, that we are gathered here for a very, very serious purpose: how to transform the human mind, the mind that has lived over many, many millennia, in sorrow, suffering, violence, bitterness, anxiety, fear, wars, violence.

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    K: If I don't end violence today, that violence has existed million years ago, in the human being, then if I don't leave that violence behind or drop it or radically bring about a mutation, I'll be violent tomorrow. This is a fact. So, is there a progress, development of the psyche as evolution? For me personally there isn't. For me - don't accept...

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    Sir, what we have said is very simple. What is the difficulty? Is it that you don't listen? Is it that you are not paying attention to what is being said? Is it that you want to keep your violence, put garlands round it?

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    So we are saying, violence can end completely with all its implication; how to live in this world without violence, without aggression, without competition, without beating somebody in your success, without hate, anger, all that violence - which is all violence - can end if you give complete attention. Attention is like a flame that burns out...

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    And the next question is: what is right action with regard to violence and when faced with violence? What is right action with regard to violence. What is violence? Go on sir, what is violence? Anger? Hatred? I am just going into it, please. Anger, hatred, conformity, imitation, obedience? Or the denial of all that, the opposite of all that? You...

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    K: And aggression and all that is involved. So as long as man accepts violence, lives a way of life which is violent, he perpetuates fear and therefore violence and also accepts authority.

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    K: Quite right sir. Therefore we are only saying, freedom from violence, not becoming free from violence in order to be non-violent. Freedom from violence.

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    ...am violent. Human beings are unfortunately violent beings: violence, for various causes, we know all that. To change violence - to transform it so that the mind is never violent, does it need time? If you admit it needs time, then that violence takes another form because it is still within the same area. Right? Some of you have got it? If you have...

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    K: Yes, madame, we have understood the question. The parents may be free from violence but my children are attracted to violence - what am I to do?

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    3rd Question: I have lived in a forest, close to nature. There is no violence there, but the outer world is the real jungle. How am I to live in it without becoming part of its competition, brutality, violence and cruelty?

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    And violence is considered as a means of changing society. It appears that through violence a quick change can be brought about, and therefore violence in certain parts of the world is justified, as in this country. And one can see again logically, sanely, that violence may bring about a superficial change in the social order, but that revolution,...

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    ...must have companionship, I must be occupied. So inwardly and outwardly we have very little space, and therefore we become more and more violent, or escape from this altogether - through sectarian attitudes, through various religious organisations, following all the bearded gurus and so on and on and on.

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    ...- jealousy, envy, not having sufficient money, despair, loneliness, all the psychotic, neurotic problems, and the ambition, ruthless violence. All that gives very little space within oneself. Now we were talking about awareness, is one aware of that fact, that in oneself one has very little space - ordinary space, emptiness? Is one aware of it...

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    ...is must achieve, what it must gain, what the others are thinking about it, it is full of knowledge of other people, conclusions and ideas and opinions. So we have very little space in our mind. Have you noticed it? And when you have no space, one of the factors of violence is the lack of space. Right? If you have watched the birds on a telegraph...

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    ...mind as thought there is no space. And thought creates a space around itself as the 'me' enclosed, and you enclosed, we and they. So the self, the 'me', which is the very essence of thought has its own little space. And to move out of that space is terror, is fear, is anxiety because I am only used to that little...

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    ...is free from total conflict. And that is part of meditation. And when you have understood the psychological time then the mind has space. Have you noticed how little space we have, both physically and inwardly? Living in large cities, in cupboards, in narrow space we become more violent because we need space physically. Psychologically also, have...

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    ...my selfish demands, my, my, my, it's very limited. Right? That limitation has its own small space. But that little space is a form of self-protective wall, to remain in there, not to be disturbed, not to have problems, not to have - you follow? - all the trouble and so on. So, as for most of us, that space of the self is the only space we have....

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    K: 'Can't I have my own space so that I don't have to interfere with you?' You have that space in tolerance, you tolerate me outside your little space. Isn't that dangerous?

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    ...or less we drift along. Now, we are challenging that consciousness, therefore you become conscious of yourself, conscious of what you are. Right? Now, in that consciousness there is very little space. Right? There is the space - please, understand, I am using 'space' in the sense of distance - you must have space to grow, like a tree you must have...

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    ...- don't you find? - that it is contradictory, saying one thing, doing something else, wanting something. You follow? The total movement within an area which is so small, and so no space and in that little space there is disorder. Right, sir? Are you aware of this?...

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    You know, those of us who live in towns, in flats, in small ugly houses, in narrow streets with noise, with all the pollution of the air and the pollution of the earth and the rivers and the trees and nature, we have very little space physiologically, physically and when we have very little space we become violent. We become aggressive. So, when...

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    ...what space means. You understand my question? What does space mean to you? Because it's very important to find this out. Because, I don't know if you have noticed, living in towns and cities, human beings have very little space. They are overcrowded. They live in flats, like in drawers, and very little space to move about. And I do not know if you...

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    ...be absolutely quiet. Not through control, not through following some method, system. Not cultivated silence. Silence implies space. I do not know if you have not noticed how little space we have in our brain. It's cluttered up, filled with so many thousands of things, it has very little space. And silence, space there must be, because that which...

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    I don't know if you have ever realised when you are looking at your own mind, how little space there is in the mind in ourselves. Our consciousness, our mind, is constantly being bombarded, by the gurus, by the politicians, by the union leaders, through education, through propaganda, it's all the time being bombarded, and one has very little...

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    K: The same sorrow. The same anxiety. The same fears. My country - all that. So mind, and so the brain, has very little space. And space is necessary, otherwise I stifle. So can the mind have space? And there will be no space if there is a direction.

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    ...anybody, including that of the speaker, most emphatically of the speaker, not to obey because the mind must be free from the very beginning, not at the end. The first step is the last step. And if the first step is not free then the last step will also not be free. So having totally seen the falseness of all this because when you practise a system...

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    K: I'm going to go step by step, sir, let's go step by step into this. If we all see the fact. Right? Wait, the fact that is happening there. Now first of all, how do you see it? As something happening out there which has nothing to do with me, or you see it because you read the newspapers, television, and that becomes an idea, a concept,...

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    K: Wait a minute, madame. You're all you refuse to go step by step, and we all jump ahead. So how can we, grown-up people and fairly advanced students, how can we change all this? You understand? What is our responsibility? You have no answer, have you? You would rather theorise about all this rather than really find out what to do.

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    ...'Yes, there is', or not. 'I have experienced a state where there is no mechanism' - that is all too silly. But to really enquire and find out you need a great deal of subtlety, great attentive quality to go step by step into it, not jump.

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    So using one's own capacity to reason, capacity to have logic, see things step by step, and not escape any step. Or - that is much more complicated - see that which is true, accurate. Well, that is a different matter.

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    ...Yes, sir. Look: I am lonely. Let's follow slowly, step by step. I'm lonely. Realising the terror of it, the feeling of complete lack of relationship with anything, I'm afraid of it. So I run away from it. I suppress it, control it, all kinds of things I do. And the loneliness still remains. Because then I ask myself, 'What shall I do about this?'...

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    K: Scott, would you just follow it, step by step. A is part of that stream, A is the manifestation of that stream, a wave of that stream, or whatever you like to call it. Now A is going through agony. A examines it. And the examination is very important, because if he escapes it is not examination, not exploration. If he suppresses, it's not. So...

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    So in our next talks and the rest of it, we are going to go step by step into the freeing of the mind from all the conditioning, from all the accumulation of ages which has corrupted it.

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    K: No, don't complicate it, sir, just go step by step: I am afraid. Suppose I am afraid. I know I have controlled it, I know I have suppressed it, I know - you know all the rest of it. And I ask myself, 'Why am I doing this?' That's all I'm asking.

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    ...possible? Or are we just indulging in imagination? Indulging in some kind of romantic, hopeful, pleasurable, sensation? I don't think we are because we have been through all that step by step by step right up to this point. So we are not deceiving ourselves. Now we say that emptiness has no centre - right? - as the 'me' and all the reactions and...

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    So I want, that's why I ask, if I may, of course most respectfully always, do we really want to go into it, are we deeply concerned with the resolution of it, not how to be free of it, but take step by step into it and discover the whole nature of it and understand it, have an insight into it, and then the thing dissolves.

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    ...We have so many questions, each one saying what he wants to say; irrelevant. So could we, as this is the last discussion, could we talk ever together as two friends, a dialogue, and choose a subject which is common to all of us and go to the very end of it, step by step. Could we do that? Would that be worthwhile? Then please choose your...

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    K: We have explained everything carefully, step by step by step. What it does: self-centredness breeds isolation, conflict, wars, all the rest of it. We know the tremendous danger of it, which is lack of security, sense of deep, abiding loneliness, you know, we've described all that.

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    K: Wait, wait, wait. So you are absorbed by the film. Another is absorbed by going to church, another is absorbed by a book, another is absorbed by Billy Graham. Wait, wait, go step by step, sir.

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    K: A is part of that stream. Let's go step by step if you don't mind, then we won't mislead each other. A is part of that stream. That stream has manifested itself as A. So A perceives he's suffering. Obviously. Right? No?

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    And we are occupied with one of the factors of life, which is death. Right? Whether you are old or young there is this great occupation, consciously, or unconsciously, with death. Aren't you? The older you get, diseased, weak, feeble, a little bit gaga - perhaps we are gaga from the very beginning (laughter) - and there is this great occupation,...

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    ...this is what we call living. Right? And I say this to myself - we are sharing this together - why not bring that which you call death to living, together. You can't take anything with you, even your guru, even all that he has said, all that you have tried to live up to. You can't take it with you. Your furniture, your wife, your children, all the...

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    Various civilisations throughout the world have tried to overcome death. They've said, life after is more important than now. So they prepared for death. And at present now, people say we must help our patients, our friends, to die happily. We never ask, what is important - before death, of the many years before death, or after death - which is...

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    Death means the ending - that is simple, that's obvious. The ending of what? The ending of your attachment - let us take that as an example. Can you end your attachment immediately, because that is death - right? Suppose I am attached to - what? I don't know - a house, and I see the consequences of being attached - fear, anxiety - or to a person,...

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    So death is a form of ending. And because we are frightened of it we invent life after death, and we have proofs and you know all the rest of it, which is all rather speculative, doubtful, suspicious. But if you could live with death, which doesn't mean suicide, live with death - morning, evening, day in and day out, live with it. So there is no...

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    ...is love free from all the human beings that have given specific meaning to that word, free from all that? Is love related to death? And is love compassion and death? All that is creation. Can there be creation without death? That is ending. Ending all knowledge - Vedanta. You have heard that word, I am sure. The word Vedanta means the end of...

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    And we said yesterday evening, death is part of this life, not something to be avoided, something put away in the distance. But when one observes life as a whole movement, which has its own extraordinary beauty, when you observe it as a whole, with all the movements of pain, sorrow, pleasure, then death is part of our life. Death is the ending and...

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    So can we, in living, intimately or not, be free of attachment immediately, which is death? You understand what I am saying? Do you understand? Death will not argue with you. Death, you won't say, tell Death, 'Give me some more time, please wait'. But if you know what death is, which is the ending. Right? The ending while you are living; the...

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    To live with death - not commit suicide, I am not talking about that silly stuff - to live with death, death means the ending. You can't take your money with you. You can't take your family with you. You can't take all your wealth with you, your house, your property, your knowledge. Death is coming and wipes away all that because your brain,...

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    K: That's been my life. I have clung to the known, and therefore death is the unknown. So I am afraid of that. And you come along, we come along and say, look, death is partly the ending of the image, the maker of the image, and death must have much more, greater significance, than merely this - empty saucer (laughs).

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    And, as we said, one of the factors of this is death. We have banished religion from our life. We have banished death from our life. Right? We have postponed it. Why do we do this? Why do we, human minds, banish the actual demand for truth? Not live in illusions, but why have we - religiously, I am talking about - banished the demand that we live...

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    ...that is my life, my daily life of going to the office, being insulted, trying to be superior, all that. And the ending of that is death and I am frightened. I who have worked for so many years, I want to finish that book, that painting, that experiment, that research, I have a responsibility for my children to send them to war, to educate them, to...

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    K: Is that death? Death as we know it, that is the brain cells, etc., etc., die. Right? The body deteriorates, there is no oxygen and all the rest of it. I am not a So it dies. Sensations die with it. Right? Now where am I?

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    ...what is the 'me' that clings to what is the known? You understand? The unknown is the death and I cling to the known. The 'me' says, 'I know, I have lived, I have acquired, I have experienced, I have suffered enormously, I have been through all kinds of delights'. And that 'me' is resisting, frightened, avoiding this thing called death. Right?...

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    K: Oh Jesus! (Laughter) Why are we all laughing? Because a little boy asks what happens after death. (Laughs) We will talk about it another time, but now we are talking of what happens before death, not after. (Laughter)

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    ...some speculative theory of the speaker. So thought is responsible for all this; for the technological advancement, for the glory of a great poem, or a great painting, and all the things that are contained in the cathedrals, in the churches, in the mosques, in the temples, are all the result of thought. Thought has created god. I hope this is not...

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    ...we said, thought has created the 'me', and so thought in itself being fragmentary makes the 'me' into a fragment. Right? When you say I, the 'me', I want, I don't want, I am this, I am not that, it is the result of thought. And thought itself being fragmentary - thought is never the whole, so what it has created becomes fragmentary. My world, my...

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    ...thought has created the cathedral, the temple, the mosque and also thought has created all the things that are in it. The rituals, the dresses, the incense, the words, are all a result of thought, and thought is a material process. Isn't it? Because memory - the cells in the brain hold memory. That's a fact, and that memory is based on knowledge...

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    ...thought has made the carpenter, he must study the wood, the instruments and so on. So thought has done all this. The content of a church and the surgeon, the expert engineer who builds a beautiful bridge, are all the result of thought. There is no refuting that however much one may argue. So one has to examine what is thought. Why human beings...

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    ...is anything sacred at all, one must totally abandon that which is not sacred. Which is, everything that thought has put together as a religious movement, as a religious life, as a religious way of living, all that must be abandoned because it is the result of thought. Thought is a material process, movement in time. Therefore, it is limited,...

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    ...Right? So knowledge which is cultivated very carefully through education makes our lives a mechanical process. Right? So, thought whatever it has built - all the extraordinary technological advancement - is the result of thought. Whatever the churches, the gods, the rituals, the incense, the nonsense that is going on, is the result of thought. And...

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    ...and yet not create division between man and man? You see my point? It's not my point, please. Why should I be conditioned as a Muslim which is the result of thought, and you conditioned as a Communist, which is the result of thought. You believe in a saviour, and I don't believe in a saviour, which is again the result of thought. The few who...

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    ...is part of the thought. I have divided thought has divided the world into America, Russia, India, China and all the rest of it, and that destroys security. That is the result of thought. I am lonely and therefore I act neurotically, which is also the fact of thought. So I see very clearly that thought is responsible for that. Right? Right,...

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    ...enquire - is thought a material process? If it is not sacred, then it is a material process. But thought has invented these: heaven and hell, the saviours of the world according to different religions, their rituals - it is all the result of thought. And then thought turns around and says, you must worship it. So we must find out for ourselves,...

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    ...them, suffocate yourself with those opinions, but still you will be afraid at the end of it. I want to go behind all that and find out why fear exists at all. Is it the result of thought? Thinking about the future? Because the future is very uncertain and thought is based on the memory of the past. Right? Thought is the response of memory,...

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    So one has to go, enquire - not 'go' - enquire, investigate, what is the 'me'? Is it the result of thought? Is it put together by the movement of time? Is it the result Does it exist by itself, apart from thought?

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    ...your gods, your fears, your pleasures, all that is your consciousness. All that is what you are. Right? And all that is put together by thought. When you say, I'm an Indian, it is the result of thought. Somebody has told you, or you etc., etc. When you say, I'm a Christian, it is the result of thought. So your consciousness, its content, is put...

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    K: Are you saying, sir, that thought - but isn't fear the result of thought, the result of anxiety - thought has produced fear - no?

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    ...I said that. So, can thought come to an end inwardly? That means, can the content of consciousness, which is the result of thought, can the contents be wiped out? That is fear, anxiety, agony, all the belief - all that is my consciousness. And that is time. And so I am asking: can time, thought, come to an end? But thought as knowledge in...

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    ...we have built an extraordinary world outwardly, thought has built. The great churches and all the rituals therein, the ancient temples, and the beautiful mosques are all the result of thought. All the rituals therein are put together by thought. Right? Please don't accept what the speaker is saying. Question yourself, delve into these facts that...

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    ...told you, the speaker has pointed out the nature of that silence. That demands great seriousness, an attention with care, with affection. If you have no affection you cannot be attentive, you cannot be aware. Awareness implies affection, care - care for the world, care for your children, care for your job, care for your life. And if you have no...

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    That means listen to find out, listen with care, with affection, not saying, 'Well, I have heard this before'. If you have heard it before and I repeat it again, you say, 'I am bored.' But if you have listened, tested, acted, found out, you will never be bored. Every time you test it there is something new taking place. And if you merely say,...

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    ...totally good. I am adding, the speaker is adding the extra words 'to be totally good'. Good in action, good in thought, excellent in the way of life. And that implies diligence, care, attention. Care implies care in your work, in your thoughts, how you bring up your children, how you treat your wife, your husband, care which means affection, love....

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    ...and I don't. You have seen it probably immediately and I'll take many years, a long time to come to that. Will you have the - I won't use the word patience - will you have the care, affection, love, so that you understand my stupidity? I may rebel against you. I may divorce you. I may run away from you. But you have sown the seed somewhere in me....

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    K: So is there an observation of the fact, not the idea, but the fact, with care, with affection? Is there an observation of violence with care and with affection? Therefore there is no - you follow? No, you don't see all this - it is so simple once you capture this! Attention implies care - begin with awareness - awareness implies care,...

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    ...you listen - you may be asleep but the moment he cries you wake up. And you are all the time attentive because the child is yours, you must care for it, you must love it, you must hold it, and so you are so tremendously attentive, even though you are asleep you wake up. Now could you so listen with that same quality of attention, affection, care,...

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    ...in life. Because if we don't find something real, something that is true, life has very little meaning. So if you are really serious to go into this matter very carefully and with care, with attention, then you can share a great deal. But you have to be serious, really serious. And if you're then if you listen to it, listen with care, with...

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    K: Quite. Because you are willing enough to listen, good enough to listen. Most people are not, they won't listen. They won't take the time, the trouble, the care to listen.

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    Relationship exists only, doesn't it, when I have no authority over you, though you are my daughter and I care for you, I don't want you to fit into my pattern of what I think you should be, when I cultivate in you independence, freedom because I care, therefore, I say please. I talk it over with you. Then relationship means a communication with...

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    Now, if you have listened to this with your heart and with your mind, with care and attention, which means with affection, then you are learning a great deal. Not from the speaker; the speaker cannot teach you. You are both the teacher and the disciple. And if you have heard what was said it's yours. If you have not heard then it is another's, and...

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    So we are going to see whether one's mind, whether one's life, daily life, is accurate, which means care, which means attention, which means diligent application not negligence. There is a difference between diligence and negligence. Diligence means care, accuracy, mean what you say and live a life that is completely correct, orderly, with care....

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    K: Obviously not, each one is concerned with his own petty little selfish desires. So, responsibility implies tremendous attention, care, diligence - not negligence as now it is going on.

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    K: But I am responsible for the lady whom I have married. Responsible in the sense that I have to look after her, care for her, and she has to care for me. Responsibility means order. But we have become totally irresponsible by isolating ourselves - British, French.

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    ...Yes sir, I know all that. The baby needs a great deal of affection, care. If the parents don't give affection, care, love to the child, the child withers. It is a well known fact. But generally the parents have their own problems, their own anxieties, fears, sorrows and business worries - you know, all that. And they give the child a little of...

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    So as we are dealing with very, very serious matters, I am afraid one has to give your attention, that means your care, your affection, your sense of responsibility.

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    ...through resistance, through contradiction. Contradiction exists when there is a wall between you and something else. Right? So, the mind, the brain, the brain cells themselves and the organism demand security, safety. Right? If you have had no security, where you are going to sleep or have your meal and so on, your body will be disturbed....

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    ...still, and also what takes place when it is still. Do you understand my question? I've observed, I've recorded, I've understood, I've watched, I've finished with that, but there is another enquiry which is: what is the state of the mind, the brain cells themselves? The brain cells store for self-protection the memories that are useful, memories...

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    ...individual, and the opposite of non-individuality which is totalitarianism, authority, and all the rest of it. We have also seen that thought, stored up in the brain as memory, knowledge, those very brain cells have become limited. For god's sake see this. Of course, obviously. But when you have an insight into all this, the very brain cells are...

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    So we are asking a very serious question, which we have discussed with many scientists, with so-called brain specialists and so on: can there be a radical change in the nature in the very psyche, which is made up of consciousness, so that the brain cells themselves are different? I don't know if you want to go into all that.

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    ...in the meantime. So my question is: how is the mind brain cells, not to record at all: the insults, the flatteries, the yesterday's pain, physical pain as a toothache - please follow this - and not say, 'It will happen again tomorrow, I must be careful' and there is fear, all that is recording of pain, pleasure, fear. How is the brain how are the...

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    ...be allowed or not, legally. You allow - what do call? - tobacco, drink, why not also allow this. The scientists, the doctors have not examined as yet fully, though there have been certain reports, that marijuana does affect the brain cells greatly. You understand? The brain cells toxically are infected by marijuana as well as LSD. They are...

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    ...I understand. Now this is a difficult question because one must be careful, very careful. If there is something else - if - then that something else can operate on the brain cells which are conditioned. Right? If there is something in the brain, then the activity of that something else can bring about freedom from this narrow, limited culture. But...

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    Therefore is it - listen, sir, I'll stop now - you know the brain cells are the result of time, they have evolved, they have been put together through experience, through knowledge, through various incidents, millennia, thousands of years, and these brain cells have retained the memory of all that. You can observe it in yourself, you don't have to...

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    ...and all the rest of it. We were discussing about this fact in New York two months ago: whether the brain cells which are conditioned, whether those brain cells can bring about a mutation in themselves, not genetically, you know all the rest of it, but in living, daily living, can there be a mutation in the brain cells? If not, we are condemned for...

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    I am enquiring with a lot of hesitation and a certain amount of scepticism, whether the brain - which has evolved through thousands of years, experience, untold sorrow, loneliness, despair, and all the rest of it, and its search to escape from its own fears through every form of religious endeavour - whether those brain cells in themselves can ever change, bring about a mutation in themselves.

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    The brain cells, one can observe it in oneself - the speaker is not repeating what he has read in books, I don't read books, this is not an assertion of vanity, on the contrary it is a statement of great humility. By observing oneself one can see this phenomenon going on; how the brain cells are conditioned and how they have been conditioned...

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    Can the mind and the brain cells themselves which have been the product of time as evolution, can the brain cells themselves and the total mind, that is the body, the movement of desire, the movement, you know, all that, the whole thing be completely still? And it can only be still when you have understood the value of thought, its importance and...

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    K: That is what we were discussing the other day - the insight transforms not only the state of the mind but the brain cells themselves undergo a change.

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    ...He asked, sir, what do you mean by the past. It's in your mind, it's in the brain cells, in the very structure of the brain cells hold all the memories. An experience you pass through and that leaves a mark; the mark, the knowledge, the information is there in the brain cells but it is already over. Isn't it? It is finished. I have experienced an...

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    ...sake don't waste your energy on going North, go South or East.' The moment he turns East he has broken the pattern. You understand? The pattern which the brain cells have set, he has broken it and gone East. It is as simple as that, if one does it. But you can play with words endlessly, write books endlessly. But once you see the nature of time,...

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    That's a fact, the scientists can explore not only the atom but also the universe, the stars, what is beyond the stars, but their knowledge is limited, they can never, never have complete knowledge of the universe, any more than a mathematician, or a biologist, or any kind of specialist - his knowledge must invariably be limited, which means - listen carefully - that knowledge always goes with ignorance.

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    ...is always within this limited area of knowledge. Right? So we are always functioning within the field of the known. Right? And knowledge is always accompanied by ignorance because there is no complete knowledge about anything. Right? So we are always in this contradictory state: knowledge and ignorance. So thought is never thought is incomplete,...

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    ...at any time about anything? Obviously not. Therefore knowledge must always go hand in hand with ignorance. Right? Please see the importance of this. There is no complete knowledge about myself. There can't be, because to understand oneself is a tremendous movement all the time. It isn't I have understood, gathered information, and accumulated from...

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    ...in this? Please, we are not agreeing; you are not just listening; you are thinking together. We are saying that knowledge is incomplete always. There is no complete knowledge about anything. That's a fact. So, our knowledge is stored in the brain as memory, and the response of that memory is thought. That is experience, either inherited or...

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    ...psychologically as well as objectively. Anything that is measurable is limited. And knowledge must always be limited. I think this is so obvious. There can never be complete knowledge about anything. There may be complete knowledge about some dead thing, but a living thing, and it is living, moving, changing and you cannot have knowledge...

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    Even the greatest philosophers, the world specialists, the theoreticians, the people of the church and religion, they can never under any circumstances, unless they are foolish, claim complete knowledge. And so our thinking, which is born out of knowledge, is limited. Right? There is no complete thinking. So our actions then are limited. Our...

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    ...So knowledge through experience, memory, and the response to a challenge which is thought, on that thought we live. Knowledge is always limited. There is no complete knowledge about anything. Right? This is a fact. So thought is always limited. However beautiful thought may build a cathedral, a marvellous statue, a great poem, great epics and so...

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    So knowledge is the basis of our relationship - which it is, actually. And so this knowledge is essentially the past. There is no future knowledge. And knowledge is always within the shadow of ignorance because there is no complete knowledge about anything. So knowledge may be, and probably is - examine it please - is the beginning of corruption.

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    ...what is intelligence? Thought is based on accumulated knowledge. Right? Therefore that knowledge will always be limited - there is no complete knowledge about anything. We must be clear on this point. Right? About the universe, about science, about physics, there is no complete, total knowledge, they are always adding, adding. Right? So knowledge...

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    ...And thought, as we said, is the child of knowledge. If you had no knowledge you wouldn't be able to think at all. And knowledge is always limited. There is no complete knowledge about anything. There is a complete understanding of something beyond all this when knowledge comes to an end. We will go into that presently, much later. We are not...

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    ...That memory is the result of experience, knowledge, stored up in the brain, in the cells. So thought is always limited because knowledge is always limited. There can be no complete knowledge. Right? Are you following all this? See what man has done. He knows probably deeply unconsciously that there can be no complete knowledge about anything, so...

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    K: Take a rest from it, don't you? When you are tired of something, when you are tired you go and lie down, sit quietly. But you are not doing it.

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    ...But it is a fact, sir. Look, I am afraid, and I cultivate courage in order to put away fear. I take a drink, or you know, all the rest of it, to get rid of fear. And at the end of it I say I am very courageous. All the war heroes and all the rest of them are given medals for this, because they are frightened and they say, 'We must go and kill', or...

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    K: Look sir, I have said that, the human being tries these things, he doesn't stick to one of them, he tries it, and he realises one try is good enough, one path is similar to the rest of the paths, so he says, out.

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    ...yourself. Go into yourself, because you, in this state as we are, you will create a monstrous world. You may go to the Moon, you may go elsewhere further, to Venus, Mars and all the rest of it, but you will always carry yourself over there. Change yourself first! Change yourself - not first - change yourself. Therefore to change, look at yourself,...

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    ...impractical, why don't you stop talking and go away?' Such people, and I have heard this very often, not only prevent their own investigation of themselves, but also because one person can't do it himself he condemns the rest of the world - because if I can't do it, you can't do it. And so this goes...

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    ...sir, please. The brain itself is conditioned. We are taking one small section of the brain, as it were, which is functioning in a direction, that's all. I am not touching the rest of it. The rest of it we can go into later - the rest of it is fear, pleasure, the whole human structure. So we are asking - it is really a very important question if...

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    K: Yes, sir. So if I want to change, because I don't want to live that way, I don't want to follow anybody because they are all like the rest of the gang. I don't accept any authority in all this.

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    K: Tape recorder. It isn't that we are preventing you, using our authority and all the rest of that nonsense, people have written and said, 'for goodness sake, everyone putting out a microphone and listening, disturbs us, do stop it' - and that is why we are stopping.

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    K: Is there such a mind that is actually, not theoretically or romantically, all the rest of that nonsense, actually said, 'I've been through this'?

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    K: Loneliness. Now what shall we take among all those things that you have suggested would you think will be sufficiently important and will cover all the rest? Right? Social activity - shall we take that?

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    ...Keep it very simple, don't intellectualise it for the moment - we'll do it later. If I love somebody, love not possessive, acquisitive, all the rest of that nonsense, if I love, the whole thing is there, the totality of that man or woman is there. So can I see myself wholly - myself being humanity? I am not different from humanity. I am not an...

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    K: But you haven't released my sorrow. I am still suffering after a million years. What for? Help me to get rid of that. Help me to be free, without fear, then I'll find out. Is it that you want position, power, status - like the rest of the world. Now this is really quite serious.

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    So, either, as we pointed out yesterday, we pursue entertainment for the rest of our lives and the future generations - football, religious entertainments and all that - or move totally in a different level. That is to know oneself most profoundly. Not according to any psychiatrist, not according to any philosopher, but to discover actually what...

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    K: Sir, look, suppose, if there were no book, no guru, no teacher, what would you do? One is in turmoil, mess, confusion, agony, you know, all the rest of it, what would you do? And nobody to help you, no drugs, no tranquillisers, no organised religions, and all the rest of that nonsense, what would you do?

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    ...feeling inferior or superior, being afraid, having no love, feeling lonely, fragmented, not only superficially but deeply - how are you to observe? One fragment observes the rest of the fragments? One becoming the censor, the examiner, the observer, watching over the rest of the fragments? And what gives him the authority over the other fragments?...

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    So greed is a form of desire. Greed is encouraged by all the industrialists, by the commercial, you know, all that business, it is encouraged. And that is becoming an immense problem in this world. Materialism is part of this greed.

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    I am greedy, let's suppose, I am greedy. So far my conditioning has said, I am different from greed. Right? I can control greed, I deny greed, I say, what's wrong with being greedy. But when there is the realisation that the greed is me - of course. Right?, then what takes place? There is the observation of that reaction which has been named as...

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    Look, I'll put it this way: I am greedy and I know greed is comparative. Right? This feeling of greed arises when I see something more than I have - which is a measure. Right? And I ask myself, to transform that feeling, that measurement, is time necessary? If time becomes a necessity, then I still remain within the field of measure: therefore I...

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    ...the tree is different from the observer; I am not the tree. Right? Obviously, I would be idiotic to say I am the tree. But when I observe my anger, my jealousy, my stupidity, my greed, the observer is different from the observed. In that division, conflict begins. The observer then tries to control greed, tries to change greed, tries to...

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    And in that area all your meditations are, all your pursuits of pleasure, fear, greed, envy, brutality, violence are within that field. And thought is always endeavouring to go beyond it, asserting the ineffable, the unnameable, unknowable and so on. Right?

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    Look sir, all right, let's take greed, as we did the day before yesterday. Greed we all know how it arises, what its responses are and so on. In observing greed, if there is a division between the observer and the observed, that is, there is greed and I say, 'I am greedy', which means I am separate from that thing called greed. Right? You are...

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    ...snake, the seeing there is immediate action, isn't it? Right? That is not a wastage of energy, is it? Right sir? Now I see I am greedy, and I then begin to say, 'I must be greedy, I must not be greedy', I rationalise it - you follow? I don't say, 'greed', see the whole complex network of the action from greed, and seeing is acting, ending it...

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    ...is disorder caused by this division in oneself? You understand? I must be good, I am violent, but one day I'll be free from violence. I'm greedy but cruel, but one day I'll be... That is the entity who says I am different from the quality, then he has to come into conflict with the quality. But the quality is you. You understand this? If you...

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    ...Are you coming with me? That is, I am watching my greed and I say, 'I must not be greedy', because my brain has been conditioned, or been told, religiously and all that blah not to be greedy, so I say, 'I will learn not to be greedy', which involves learning, restraining, controlling, suppressing, all that. Right? - that's clear, that's what we...

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    ...it has become mechanical? If I am a Hindu I function as a Hindu, or a Jew, or a Christian, whatever it is, the superficial is so heavily laden - I function on that line, And below that layer which education hasn't touched, or has touched, and therefore the whole content of consciousness is mechanical - you are following? Conditioned, heavily...

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    ...nationalism - right? - which is tribalism. You may not agree or, please, quietly listen. Tribalism - right? - which has become glorified nationalism with its flags and so on - the British, the French, the Hindu, the Indians - you follow? - divided, divided, divided. We are saying, one of the causes of war is nationalism. That is obvious. Other...

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    So seeing all this, wars, violence, corruption, a social structure that is totally immoral, division, conflict, suffering and the brutal violence that is spreading throughout the world, seeing all this, one wants to find out, if one is at all really serious, not playing with words, not playing with ideas or speculating about the problem but if one really earnestly enquires into it, which we are going to do, then that enquiry demands on your part an observation which is not prejudged, which is not prejudiced, which is not parochial, which is not Hindu or any other particular race or caste.

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    ...is: can man, you as a human being, radically transform himself? Not into something, not into another conditioning, not being a Hindu, go and become a Catholic, or being a Catholic become a Hindu, which seems so utterly futile, going from one cage or one prison to another prison. When one realises this, what can one do? I wonder if one realises...

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    K: I am saying sir, I am a Hindu, born a Hindu and I am free to choose and therefore I say, I won't be a Hindu, and I will be a Catholic. And I think that is the freedom of choice. From one conditioning I go to another conditioning.

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    ...conflict, facing insecurity. And the Americans are doing exactly the same thing, so are the Russians. So you are actually the rest of mankind. You are not a Hindu though you like to call yourself a Hindu. That is just your local, provincial, narrow...

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    K: Look sir, can you be aware of your fragments? That you are an American, that I am a Hindu, you are a Jew, Communist - you just live in that state. You don't say, 'Well, I know I am a Hindu'. It is only when you are challenged, it is only when, say, 'What are you?', then you say, 'Yes, I am an Indian', or a Hindu, or an Arab.

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    I am asking you now, not next day, or later on, but I am asking you now, find out if you are being programmed, as a Filipino, or as a Hindu, or as a Christian, or something else, which is, you are being told from childhood, you are a Filipino, I am a Hindu, she is a Christian, and she is a Hindu or a Brahmin, and he is from South America, Argentina, so you are being programmed.

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    ...when it has to function. Right? Now, can such a mind deal with everyday facts of life? You understand? Which means, can it function if you are a Muslim, a Sikh, a Hindu, a Buddhist, can it ever function when there is the conditioning of the mind? Which is, a Hindu, can such a mind function through a Hindu who is conditioned according to his...

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    JK: I would say once a Hindu has been programmed for the last five thousand years to be a Hindu, or in this country you have been programmed as British, or as a Catholic or as a Protestant. So we are all programmed up to a certain extent.

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    K: Yes, that's it, that's it. Why am I a Hindu? - if I am, I am not a Hindu, I am not an Indian, I have no nationality, but suppose I call myself a Hindu. What makes me a Hindu?

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    I see, I perceive, that I should not be a Hindu because one of the reasons for being a Hindu is for security purposes and also it is one of the causes of war - nationalism, tribalism is one of the causes of war. So I see that, I perceive it - sorry - I perceive it to be the truth and therefore I am no longer a Hindu. But whereas if I say, why...

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    ...organisation, whether it is democratic or totalitarian or Marxist. Nor through divisions of nationalities. As long as you remain an American, and the speaker remains a Hindu or a Buddhist or Muslim, we'll have no peace on earth. Nor the racial divisions, as the Jew, the Arab, and the Hindu, and so on. Nor culturally. So it's a very important...

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    K: Look sir, there is a war going on between Israel and the Arabs. That is the result of fragmentation, isn't it? And if you are really if you want to live in a world that is so destructive, peacefully, how are you to do it? You must be non-fragmented, mustn't you? You must be neither an Israelite or an Arab, Hindu or a Muslim. Right? Are you?

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    ...Ah, all right. The other question is - is that enough, Narayan, have we discussed sufficiently that point? - the other question is: what is the relationship between discontent and meditation? We will come to you afterwards. What is the relationship between discontent and meditation? What do you think? As we said, discontent most of us have. Either...

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    So can these two move together, or must they be separate, or the very discontent, keeping that flame alive is a form of meditation? You get it?

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    Can there be discontent by itself? Or is it always associated with something? I am dissatisfied with my house, with my wife, with my job, with my looks, with my hair, with all god knows what else. Is discontent born out of comparison? You are following? Why do we compare? I know it is said through comparison there is progress and all the rest of...

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    ...that you are wasting your life? Don't say, relative, positive, so much - wasting. And I said, wasting implies that this discontent, are you smothering it, are you running away from it, or try to find such deep satisfaction that discontent disappears. I consider that a waste of life, just to run away from...

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    K: No, you see, discontent, he says, is nearly suffering. Because you suffer because you can't get something out of discontent. I am married to a woman I don't like, I am discontent.

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    ...Sir, I am not talking of total transformation. I am talking about how you come to the well which will perhaps quench all your discontent. Wait, sir, I haven't finished. And you are asking a question: has each one of us the capacity? It's up to you. Right, sir? It's up to you. If your discontent is tremendous then you go to the well with a...

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    K: You are discontent not about something, but it is a flame that is burning in you, not fed by another, by faggots or wood of not having this, not having that, wanting more, wanting less. So you find that there is a discontent by itself. Is that so?

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    ...That's all. First let's I understand, sir, I understand. So let's be very clear that you are discontent with something. Right? Right, sir? With my relationship, I am not good at exams, I am not this, so you are discontented with something. Now what is it that you are discontented with? Then if you know what you are discontented with then we can...

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    ...feels different and so on. So is it possible to observe all this, this fragmentation, as a total movement? That is, what does it mean, or what is the significance of an observation that is complete, non-fragmentary, non broken up? To observe. Because when you observe, in that observation there is action. Observation doesn't mean observe, draw a...

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    K: What do you mean by observation. We generally observe after the event and not observe as it is taking place - is that what you mean sir?

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    ...the brain has only one factor, and that is the only instrument you have. And is there an observation - please, just listen, find out, I am just suggesting this, look into it - is there an observation without knowledge, an observation in which there is no experience. The moment you have experience there must be an experiencer - I don't know if you...

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    K: If I want to look at you, if I want to say to understand you, I can't say, 'I don't like beards, I don't like long hair', that interferes in my observation of you. If I say, 'Oh, he is an English, an American or a Hindu or a Muslim, I don't like them' therefore that interferes with my observation of you. So, can I observe myself without any...

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    So what we are going to do during all these talks and discussions is to learn through observation, not your observation or my observation but the observation of a mind that sees very clearly, that has no prejudice. If it has prejudice put it aside, your conclusions, your tradition, your belief, put all that aside and look. When that is very clear,...

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    When you observe, when thought interferes with that observation you are giving it a direction; from your memory, from your motive, from your desire. Right? Then there is no observation. Your desire, your motive, your pleasure directs the observation. Right? So to observe actually what you are, one must approach it freely. And that's our difficulty...

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    So when analysis is totally false - I am using the word 'false' in the sense, incorrect, it has no value - then you are only concerned with observation, that is, to observe. So we have to understand the whole question of what is observation. You are following all this?

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    So there is observation means non-abstraction. Right sir? There is only observation, not the observer who is an abstraction. You have understood it? The observer is an abstraction, is an idea, is a conclusion, is the past. And through the eyes of the past you are looking at the trees, the mountain, your wife, your children and all the rest of it....

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    So can there be an observation without any movement of the past, and therefore no fear at all, just observation? It doesn't mean I observe the bus rushing towards me, I step out of it.

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    ...memory as a screen and through that screen you look at people. So there is an observation which is not controlled by words, shaped by words, twisted by thought, and that is the only - I don't like to use 'instrument' - that is the only observation, to look, to observe without any word. Don't shake your head, this demands extraordinary...

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    ...That must be very clear because it is stupid to say, 'I agree with you', or disagree with you, because we are looking. So one factor remains, which is, in observation there is neither agreement nor disagreement. You are not opposing my opinion, or I am opposing your opinion because there is no opinion, just observation. Right? In observation then...

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    K: What prevents observation? Do circumstances, relationship, all the impingement of the outer environment, does that prevent observation - is that your question, sir?

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    ...- to observe. Observe that tree, to listen to that stream, which is part of observation naturally, without any interference of the word - the tree, the river - to observe without any movement of the past remembrance entering into your observation, which requires complete freedom from the past as the observer, and just to observe. You understand...

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    So to understand oneself there must be observation, and that observation can only take place now. And the now is not the movement of the past which observes the now. See the difference? I can observe the now from the past, from my past conclusions, prejudices, hopes, fears and all the rest of it. Which is the observation from the past of the...

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    ...You just observe, don't you. In that observation when there is verbalisation you have already moved away from observation, haven't you? This is so simple, isn't it? So can you observe without verbalising? - just to observe without naming. Now can you look at yourself, observe yourself without saying, good, bad, get depressed - you follow? - just...

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    ...No, do please. Do you want to keep your hurts? There is great pleasure in keeping them because that gives you vitality, energy to hurt somebody else. If you want to be free of all hurts what will you do, so that you are never under any circumstances in your relationship with the world, or with your friends, never to be hurt. Do you know what it...

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    And from childhood through comparison, through imitation and conformity, we have stored up these great many hurts. And not being aware of them, all our responsive activity is based on these hurts. Right? We are going together? You are not merely listening to what the speaker is saying, but you are using these words to see yourself, then there is a...

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    K: Sir, I explained to you. That is putting it quickly. Look, I have been hurt for various reasons and I see the result of those hurts, and I see the importance that these hurts must go. What am I to do?

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    ...possible to be free utterly from all the content of our consciousness? You understand? To be free of all the hurts that one has received from childhood; to be free of fear; to understand the whole nature of pleasure; to find right relationship with each other. So let's begin to find out if it is possible to be free of the hurts, the wounds, that...

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    So can these hurts which produce all kinds of activity, of imbalance, neuroticism, escapes and so on, can these hurts be wiped away, so that the mind can function efficiently, clearly, sanely, wholly? And that is one of the problems of sorrow. You have been hurt, and I am pretty sure everyone has been. That's part of our culture, that's part of...

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    Now how do you approach this question: how to dissolve the hurts and be concerned with that, or how not to be hurt at all? Which is the question you put to yourself? Put to yourself. Now which do you want answered? To dissolve all the hurts, or no more hurts. You understand? Which is it that comes to you naturally?

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    K: So Dr Bohm, what is one to do? What am I to do? How am I There are two things involved in it: one to prevent further hurts and to be free of all the hurts that I have had.

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    ...is hurt? What is the thing that is being hurt when somebody says something harsh, brutal, hurts your own vanity - what is that? Is it not an image that you have built about yourself? You might think that you are an extraordinarily intelligent man, and somebody comes along and says, 'Don't be a fool' and you get hurt. You think you are...

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    K: Yes, one actually registers, that is the fact. But I am asking why? Do find out. Ask yourself sir, not me ask you, ask yourself: I register my hurts, my pleasures, what you said to me, what you didn't do, your nagging, this, that, ten different things. Why do I register psychologically?

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    ...and what is being said. Therefore, you are not listening; you are merely comparing, measuring which is the function of thought. Thought is the response of memory, the accumulated knowledge of your own or of others. And when you listen - doesn't matter to what - specially to listen to those things that are intimate, serious, profound, the...

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    I am asking you a question, which is: we have knowledge, we have accumulated knowledge through centuries upon centuries - knowledge about wars, about the reasons of brutality, knowledge about nature - we have accumulated knowledge about almost everything, technological as well as psychological, the world outside and the world inside - we know a great deal, and I am asking whether what place has that knowledge in the transformation of our human mind?

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    And the other thing is to learn, not from another, not from a book, not from those people who have accumulated, or think they have accumulated knowledge and enlightenment and all that business, but to learn through observation, through listening. We have only learnt as a means of acquiring a capacity, a job, and that learning has becoming the...

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    One has accumulated knowledge, psychologically. I have been hurt many years ago as a boy, or a girl, I have been hurt. And that hurt has become my knowledge, it is there inside my skin. And I act according to that knowledge, which is I resist, I isolate myself in order not to be hurt more. And so there is constant division between me and another...

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    ...It's generally accepted - the experience which yields, or leaves a mark which is knowledge. That accumulated knowledge whether in the scientific world or in the biological world or in the business world or in the world of the mind, the being, is the known. The known is the past, therefore knowledge is the past. Knowledge cannot be in the present....

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    ...different ways. And also you see what knowledge has done, which is, you have accumulated knowledge as an experience of the sunset yesterday - please listen, do pay attention to this - you have accumulated that experience which has become knowledge and you want that experience repeated and it may not happen, therefore there is pain. So knowledge is...

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    ...- none of that is responsible for this, we are responsible. And what is the cause of this? You understand now? Is the cause selfishness? Is the cause the accumulated knowledge - please listen carefully. We are not against knowledge, knowledge is necessary - to drive a car, to learn a language, to operate any electronic so on, so on, so on -...

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    ...there a meditation which is not deliberate? If you ask that question, setting aside everything, you'll find out. Which means, a brain - if you are interested to go into this deeply - a brain that is free from all accumulated knowledge. Face it. Because all knowledge is conditioning. Right? Because knowledge is always limited. We went into it the...

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    K: How does one set about freeing oneself from the accumulated knowledge? Look: if you had no accumulated knowledge you wouldn't be able to go home. You wouldn't be able to recognise your wife or your friend or your husband. Please see the difficulty of this. You need to have accumulated knowledge to function in your job. You must have it; you...

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    K: Do it now, sir, not learn and then - see. Learning implies, doesn't it, that you have accumulated knowledge and then watch with that knowledge.

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    K: Having accumulated knowledge as time you can use it in the present. Is that it? Yes? Now listen to that: having accumulated knowledge, which is, I have learnt English and I use that language, that knowledge in the present. Right? Which is obvious, I am doing it.

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    ...there is the adding process going on. That is, knowledge is the residue of experience, of accumulated knowledge of the race, of society, of the scientist, biotic, all that, all the accumulation of human endeavour as experience scientifically or personally, is knowledge, to which you are adding or taking away. Knowledge which has no basis,...

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    ...there is conflict. So, behaviour, order and the understanding of freedom from knowledge and the importance of knowledge. I cannot speak English, the speaker cannot speak English if he has not accumulated knowledge in English. Knowledge is necessary to drive a car, to do anything efficiently knowledge is necessary. But freedom from knowledge is...

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    ...been accumulated both in the field of science, in the field of technology, to function such knowledge is necessary. But to act in our daily life, in our relationship from an accumulated knowledge becomes a mechanical relationship. We are going to go into that, don't look so puzzled, we'll go into...

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    ...gathered through previous observation. Am I learning, is there learning then? Because when the mind observes with an accumulated knowledge of its examination, from its examination, that knowledge is preventing perception, that knowledge is preventing the freedom to look. See the...

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    K: I am using the word 'psychological' in the sense there is inner demand, I want something - not I - people want something. What is it you want? I wish you would...

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    K: Of course, of course. So I'm asking, is silence, is the sense of the immeasurable, does that come about by my questioning?

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    What is this loneliness, this sense of inward, deep void? What is it, how does it come into being? Does it exist - please follow it - does it exist because you're trying to fill it? You are trying to escape from it? Does it exist because you are afraid of it? Or is it an idea, and therefore the mind is never in contact with it? - I don't know if...

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    K: Of course. So now I have come to a point when I say all that is knowledge - we will put it in that word - I discard it. Because that hasn't led me anywhere - led me in the sense I am not free of my egocentricism.

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    K: It has meaning only when he goes beyond everything, beyond - he dies to everything. Dying means, in the sense, never for a single second accumulating anything psychologically.

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    K: Which the parents cannot give, or are incapable of giving - psychological security, the sense of 'you are my child, I love you, I'll look after you, I'll see that throughout life you behave properly - care'. They haven't got that, that feeling.

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    K: I am using meditation in the sense in which there is not a particle of endeavour, a particle of any sense of trying to become, consciously reach a level and so on.

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    K: I have no sense of hoping to come back, whether I'll have it in the future, or - it is empty and therefore listening. It is finished. (Pause)

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    K: That is an enormous statement. Meditation as we know it, is becoming, and any sense of becoming is still time, therefore there is no sense of becoming.

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    K: Or, 'I am seeking immortality'. Or, 'I am becoming' - you have wiped away the whole sense of moving in darkness. I wonder if you get this. Yes sir.

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    K: No. This leads to something else. Why do I want to identify myself? Probably basically the desire to be secure, to be safe, to be protected. And that sense, it gives me strength.

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    ...and all the rest of it, where is the relationship possible there? Relationship in the sense we are talking about, in the sense feeling responsible for the student, not only academically but morally, socially, his behaviour, his way of thinking, and so on, concerned totally. It doesn't...

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    ...do you know about it? I begin to doubt, I begin to question, I become cynical, so I have shut it off, all communication. But if you are really serious, in the sense that you have gone east, your whole being is different. I don't know. It is no longer a theory, it is a fact. I think we are cursed with theories -...

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    ...like primitive people, barbarians killing each other. So we ought to consider what is the relationship between love and sorrow. If one loses one's brother, wife and children, if one is attached; and is attachment love? Where there is attachment there must be suffering. Attachment breeds fear, anxiety, pain, grief, sense of utter loss. And that...

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    ...and possession, there begins the act of cruelty. The cruelty of jealousy. Right? The cruelty of anxiety, fear, hatred. Right? You know all this, don't you? So I am asking: is attachment love? If you are not attached, would that be love? Then you might chase another woman, or another man. And when there is jealousy, is that love? And to come upon...

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    ...I hear you. And because I really am in earnest, serious, I want to find out. I really want to find out. So I give attention to what you are saying. And when you say, 'Is attachment love?' I say, 'Am I attached to my daughter, to my wife?' I investigate in myself. You understand? I say, am I? And if I am not attached will I become irresponsible?...

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    ...if there is no jealousy, a sense of each one asserting, people imagine that there is no love, or that there is love - this state is love. Right? So I am asking from that: is attachment love? We are thinking over together, you and I. So are you attached to your...

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    ...fact? We have analysed it briefly, which we can go into it much more deeply but can one observe this extraordinary fact of self, of dependence, attachment? So one asks: is attachment love? Is love possession? My wife, my girl, my husband - attachment. Is that love? If that is love then it has a cause. Right? Because I depend on you because you...

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    ...You are following? Do you know it? You probably have read a great deal, gone to many libraries, made research or looked into books and literature, religious literature, read intellectual literature and the existentialism, this and that, you must have done all this, and have you found the answer? Or is this the first time that you are facing this...

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    It is not possible to have a discussion with such a large group, nor have a dialogue, which is a conversation between two people, and so we have resorted to questions written down and to be answered. I don't know by whom, but I believe the questions have to be answered. I do not think that the speaker is going to answer the questions, but together...

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    ...a question to somebody, or to ourselves, what is the intention behind the question? Is it merely to find an answer, and the answer from somebody else, or do we put the question to ourselves and what is the response to the question which we have put to ourselves? As there have been written down questions, handed over, apparently you're expecting...

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    ...it waiting to be informed, is it waiting to be told, or is it waiting to find knowledge which will then bring about a harmonious life? You follow? I must answer that question when I say, 'I don't know'. Am I waiting for an answer when I say, 'I don't...

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    ...give me pleasure, I will do that. That has been our action. Our action is based on reward and punishment, obviously. And that is the world we have lived in. And that world has no answer. It can keep on going round and round in that world saying, there is an answer, there is an answer, but it will always remain there. That is...

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    Now, if there is nobody to answer you, to tell you, and you are faced with this problem, which is: the deep hurts, how are they to be wiped away so that the mind can never be hurt. Right? What is your answer? You, who are very clever people, read a great deal, can quote Freud, Jung and all the professionals, what is your answer? Please be honest,...

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    ...in our lives. And thought may be also one of the reasons why we destroy each other. So what is thought, what is thinking? When you are asked a question, what is your name, your answer is very quick, immediate - why? Because you have repeated it a hundred times, you are very familiar with it. If you are asked a more complicated question, there is a...

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    Whom do you expect to answer these questions? (Laughter) The Delphic Oracle (laughter), the highly elevated priests, the astrologers, the soothsayers, the reading of tea leaves! (Laughter) Whom do you expect to answer this question? But if you are not expecting anyone to answer this question, but since you have put this question, can we talk it...

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    ...are a lot of questions here, which I haven't seen. It's good to ask questions, and from whom do you expect the answer? Is the answer more important than the question? If the question and to put the question rightly also requires an art. When you have put the question, are you putting it to somebody, or to yourself? And if the question is...

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    ...I would like to ask you a serious question. Do you love anybody? Answer in your heart, not me. Do you love anybody? Do you love your wife? Do you love your husband, do you love your children? You understand this? See the implication of that word. You can't answer, can you? And that is what is destroying the world, because you have lost all that,...

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    ...do we expect a reply from somebody else? Here are several questions this morning. We shall answer them, or rather we shall together investigate the question, not the answer but rather in finding out the meaning of that question we shall then come upon the answer. The question is much more important, it seems to me, rather than the answer. Why one...

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    ...The Lord according to different countries and cultures and traditions. The Almighty of different concepts? To whom are we praying? And why do we pray? Does prayer answer our difficulties? In some cases when you are praying, not merely using certain words, chanting and so on, but praying silently without word, you understand what I am saying? -...

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    K: You are searching for an answer, aren't you? You are searching for an answer. Right? Which is, searching for an answer in your memory. Right? Right, sir? That is, you have stored up memory in your brain, and you are answering, looking for an answer in that. Or you are looking an answer in a book, or looking for an answer from somebody who...

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    K: Have you found an answer for yourself, which must be rational, logical, objective, can stand up against any questioning, which can be doubted, not easily accepted? So, have you found such an answer?

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    ...everything, especially your gurus, all the books you have read, your Gitas, your Upanishads, everything doubt, which means question. Then when you question find out also who is going to give you the answer. Somebody who knows, somebody who is experienced, somebody who has read much more than you have read, somebody who sits in a sannyasi robe and...

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    ...let's make this very clear, we are not analysing, we are merely observing. When you analyse there is a division between the analyser and the analysed - right? - so that division creates conflict, the analyser saying, this is not right, this should be that. But the analyser is starting from a centre. right? The centre which is the accumulation of...

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    ...political, religious and so on, but self-analysis, self-delusion, and say, 'I must not be deluded, I must be honest'. So we are asking, saying, it is not analysis because the analyser who says, 'I will analyse' is the analysed. There is no difference - please listen to this - there is no difference between the analysed and the analyser. They are...

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    ...One dissipates through trying to overcome 'what is', to deny 'what is', to escape from 'what is', or analyse 'what is'. Because the analyser, as we said during all these many talks over many years, the analyser is the analysed. The analyser is not different from that which he analyses. When you're envious or angry or greedy - whatever it is - when...

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    ...must analyse it. Right? That is the fashion. We never look into the whole process of analysis, whether it is self-introspective, or professional. In analysis is implied the analyser and the analysed. Who is the analyser? Is he different from the analysed? Or the analyser is the analysed, and therefore it is utterly futile to analyse? I wonder if...

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    ...That is, sir, you are analysing, aren't you? Now just let's stop there for a moment. What are the implications of analysis? Who is it that is analysing, thinking the analyser is different from the problem? Careful, go slowly, sir. The analyser thinks he is different from the problem, and therefore he is able to say to himself, I am going to...

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    ...into proficient investigation into the past; or your own investigation, if you are capable of it. And we are saying such forms of analysis are not only separative because the analyser thinks he is different from the thing he is analysing - right? You are following all this? So he maintains this division through analysis, whereas the obvious fact...

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    And the second thing is, the analyser when he analyses every analysis must be totally complete, otherwise his evaluation will be partial and therefore his conclusion will also be partial. Right? Then the analyser must examine every thought, every thing which he thinks should be analysed, and that will take time. Right? You may spend, as they do, a...

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    ...the question is not, and the enquiry, is not an analytical process. It is not analysis. You understand? I must explain this, a little bit. Analysis implies division, the analyser and the analysed. The analyser is the past. Right? What he has learnt, from Freud, Jung, you know, the whole psychological knowledge, and the various divisions in this...

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    ...speaker are investigating, exploring, examining, not analysing. There is a difference between analysis and perception. Analysis implies an analyser, the analyser is the past, and he is examining the present, what is happening now. What is happening now, or what is psychologically taking place, is what the observer has been, or is. Are we together...

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    ...our pet pursuits, not only analysing the heavens, the stars, this expanding and contracting universe, but also we are analysing ourselves constantly. And we have never enquired who is the analyser. The analyser, if you observe carefully, the analyser is the analysed. Thought has separated the analyser as though he is some superior entity, with a...

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    ...there are several things implied in this process of analysis. First there is not only the difference between the analyser and the analysed, and whether the analyser is not also the analysed, and therefore there is no difference between the analyser and the thing he is going to analyse. And also in that is involved a whole time, many days, many...

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    I think this is rather an important question to understand because when we divide the analyser as something separate from the analysed, then in that process of division there is contradiction, there is conflict; either there is suppression, or examination as something outside. But the analyser is the analysed. When one is violent, when there is...

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    ...speaker will describe, not analyse. There is a difference between analysis and perception. Analysis implies the analyser and the thing to be analysed. Right? Right? The analyser and the thing he is going to analyse. Which means the analyser is different from the analysed. Are they different? Suppose I am the analyser and I am envious, and I begin...

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    And so, we have separated the analyser, who is investigating the consciousness of himself. I hope this is clear. My consciousness, and yours, is its content. Without the content there is no consciousness as we know it. The content of one's consciousness, one wants to investigate, one wants to look, one wants to find out why that consciousness is...

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    ...Analysis is paralysis. I said this. The speaker said that. And he said, also, there is the analyser and the analysed. Please listen to this. This is as important a question as any other question. Paralysis is the factor of analysis. There is the analyser and the analysed, and it takes time to analyse - time, division between the analyser and the...

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    ...we are together exploring these problems of human beings, of humanity. Together. Please bear in mind, together we are exploring, investigating into our psychological problems, human problems. And unless you resolve those problems by understanding, by observing and going beyond them, there is very little chance for human beings, right throughout...

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    So I have only one problem - not many problems because all problems, our human problems, are interrelated. The problem of death is related to love, love is related to everyday living, everyday living is related to our ways of behaviour, our behaviour is conditioned according to the culture in which we live - the society, the economic condition and...

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    ...intensity at the same time. That is love, that is real deep friendship. So please, this is not a lecture in the ordinary sense of the word. We are together trying to enquire and resolve our human problems. That requires a great deal of enquiry because human problems are very, very complex. One must have the quality of patience which is not of...

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    ...of religion, in the world of economics, in the world of social relationship. And we are trying to solve our problems, our human problems - not technological problems - our human problems in the area, or in the field which thought has created, in the field of reality. Are we meeting each...

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    ...Why, why? I am rather concerned about this because in a school like this, or with all the people we talk to, the human problems remain constant. And I am questioning, asking in this dialogue, whether it is possible to have no problems at all - human problems, apart from technological problems, that can be solved. But human problems seem insoluble...

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    ...method is investigating through opinions to find out the truth. So we are not dialectically investigating. We are, as two friends, talking over together their human problems and hoping to solve them and to discover truth.

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    ...our own personal problems. We never seem to think together. And I think it is very important, if I may, that we should go into this matter first before we go into the human problems, which are very, very complex, that need resolution, that needs human endeavour and clarity.

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    ...a dialogue about something which we were talking about the other day. We have cultivated a mind that can solve almost any technological problems. And apparently human problems have never been solved. Human beings are drowned by their problems: the problems of communication, the problems of knowledge, problems of relationship, problems of heaven...

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    ...implies sharing, partaking in what is being said. Because we are concerned with human problems: such as the human psyche being hurt from childhood, fear, pleasure, love and if there is, if it is possible to end all suffering and also what is the significance of death and what it is to meditate. We are going to go into all that which are the human...

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    ...jealous, frightened, and in our fear create all kinds of horrors. And this is the world in which we live, outwardly and inwardly. No philosophy, no guru, no politician, nobody has solved our human problems. You can escape from them (sound of aeroplane) You can escape from them by joining some monastery, by taking certain vows, or joining some...

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    So see sirs, what is implied in all this: how important it is that there should be a radical revolution, psychological revolution, because no politics, no government, no Lenin, Marx, nobody is going to solve any of our problems - the human problems from which every misery comes, from a human being who is functioning, living, operating, acting on thought.

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    ...would like to point out that this is not an entertainment, a something to be amused or entertained or that will give you satisfaction. We are exploring together into our human problems - our human daily problems. And if I may again point out, as we did yesterday, we are enquiring, investigating together. You are sharing in what is being said -...

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    ...have been talking over together many problems, many issues and the different forms of conflict that we live. We have been going into all these problems, human problems which are common to the world. It is not only our personal problem but also when you go to India, Asia, America you see the same problems, the same issues, same miseries and...

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    ...one had hoped, one had looked for science to solve all our problems. Science with its technology has not solved any of our problems, human problems. They have given us a great deal of technological knowledge and action. You see all this. These are fairly obvious things when you look. Education, which is to prepare a human being to meet life, the...

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    K: Does this convey anything? Come and join us. Are we getting anywhere, sir? Or are we going round and round in circles? You see most human beings have problems of some kind or another. Apart from technological problems which can be solved, apparently human problems are not soluble. And I say, why?

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    K: Right, sir? Now proceed. Wait, wait! Get ready. To me, or to K that is the only thing that matters. If that does not exist the rest is all limited. And therefore you will have perpetual conflict between each other, between the world and so on and so on. That's all.

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    ...in this? A little bit? Then we must enquire: why we human beings for the last forty, fifty thousand years of our evolution, which the biologists and the archaeologists are saying that we have lived on this earth, as human beings walking on two legs, why from that time on until now we are in perpetual conflict - right? Why? Is it agreement and...

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    ...understand? It's a very destructive thing to hear something true, natural, healthy, and not profoundly apply it. Then what you have heard and what you are brings about a contradiction and then there is conflict, perpetual conflict. Far better not to hear any of this, and not...

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    ...in ourselves, and conflict in any form must not only wear down the brain with all its sensitivity but also conflict wastes our energy. So one must find out why we human beings live in perpetual conflict.

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    ...or major factor, of deterioration in the brain. Conflict. And human beings from childhood till they die are in perpetual conflict about one thing or another, and that conflict comes into being when there is contradiction: when you say something and do totally a different thing. That is hypocrisy. Will you listen? As a friend are we listening to...

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    ...were talking yesterday about conflict. We were asking whether human beings who have lived on this beautiful earth, with all the vast treasures of this earth, with their mountains, rivers and lakes, during all these millennia human beings have lived in perpetual conflict. Not only outwardly with the environment, with nature, but also with each...

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    ...are asking: is this the basic cause of our conflict? Or man is doomed forever as long as he lives on this marvellous earth, doomed to perpetual conflict? One can rationalise this conflict, say nature is in conflict, the tree struggling to reach the sun is in conflict, and that is part of our nature because through conflict, through competition, we...

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    ...not occasionally. It's a very serious question. It demands a serious answer. Not, 'it's possible or not possible', but to enquire into it very deeply, why human beings, including you, the speaker perhaps, live in perpetual conflict, problems, divisions. Why we have divided the world into nationalities, religious groups, social behaviour and all...

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    ...must wear itself out; a piston engine if it is not oiled properly, running smoothly will very soon wear itself out. Similarly our brain will wear itself out and become gradually dull if it lives in perpetual conflict. Right? Are we following each other? Now we are asking whether such conflict can end. What is conflict? Conflict exists when there...

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    ...I understand sir. The questioner says - please correct me, sir, if I am repeating it wrongly - the questioner says the very word observation, seeing, implies duality. That is one thought imposing on other thoughts, the very initiation of observation is to bring about this duality. (Please, madam, we are talking seriously, please stop taking...

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    ...we are enquiring into the cause of conflict. The cause of conflict is - one of the causes - is duality. Right? Violence and nonviolence, that's duality. Good and the bad, hate and love. Why do we have duality? Don't translate it to advaita or some other Sanskrit word and get away with it. Why do we have duality? What is duality? You are a woman, I...

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    ...he is not boasting or trying to be an example, he has a horror for all that kind of stuff - he says yes, it is possible, he has done it. What is conflict? Why is there duality in us? You understand? Saying one thing, and doing something else, contrary to what you have said. And I am greedy, I must not Which is a contradiction. Right? Agree, sir?...

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    Is duality one of the causes of conflict? That is, there is duality - light and dark, man/woman, you know - duality, you know all that, outward, physical world, in that physical world there is duality - between good cloth and bad cloth, between a nice dress, which is tasteful, good material and bad material, between a good car and a bad car....

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    ...There is plenty of space! (Laughs) Sir, so please help me to understand how to deal with 'what is' - then my problem is solved, you understand? Then I won't fight duality, there won't be duality. So please teach me, help me to understand and go beyond it, not remain in it - go beyond 'what...

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    ...So there is contradiction. You think one thing and do another. Say one thing and do something else and so on. There is contradiction, opposing desires, opposing demands, opposing movements in all of us - duality. Right? Are we clear on this? May we go on? This duality. How does this duality arise? I am having a conversation with myself....

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    K: My point is: there is no duality even in daily life. It is the invention of all these philosophers, intellectuals, who say there is the opposite, work for that. The Utopians, the idealists. The fact is I am violent, that's all, let me deal with that. And to deal with it don't invent non-violence.

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    K: Sir when we said duality has come to an end, when you say observer is the observed. Duality exists and the expression of that duality is conflict. When there is no conflict between the observer and the observed what takes place? Nobody there to tell you - you follow sir?

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    ...You understand? Because I see if there is an effort there must be will, there must be resistance, there must be conflict. Right? Which means, when there is the analysis or the action of will there must be duality. Do you understand? There must be duality: the analyser, the introspector, and the thing analysed and looked at - those are two things....

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    So, I am questioning, what is duality? Is there a duality at all? Except man, woman, dark, light, all that. You understand? Is there duality at all? Or there is only one thing? I am anger. Duality arises when I must not be angry. So there is only the fact and not its opposite. I wonder if you understand. The fact has no opposite. I can invent an...

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    ...security, when we understand the whole process of becoming. Becoming implies duality, and where there is duality there must be conflict - the Arab and the Jew, the Muslim and the Hindu, the Catholic and the Protestant - you follow - the perpetual state of conflict human beings live in. So where there is becoming there is duality and therefore...

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    K: He says, duality comes to an end, therefore there is only the present. Right? I have not named it, the mind has not named it, therefore what takes place? You haven't done it. If you had done it you would see it.

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    ...when you are being aware? So when you put that question, is the questioner there? You understand? When you say, what am I when I am aware, in that question there is a duality, the one that is aware and the one that says, what am I when I am aware. Then if there is duality then there is no awareness at...

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    ...observe 'what is'. Therefore you have no longer the duality of 'what should not be', only 'what is'. You are beginning to see the implications of it? When there is no 'what should be', the highest principle, you have only this. This is a fact. That is not fact. So you can deal with facts. When there is no duality there is only one thing, say for...

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    ...conclusion between two opinions, between two arguments, dialectic, fanciful, imaginary, or romantic, even so-called historical. But a dialogue means a conversation - dialogos - that means conversation between two people. So this is a conversation between you and the speaker. A conversation implies two friends, I mean friends who like each other,...

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    ...take part in this discussion, every one of us, not me talk all the time and you listen. All of us are supposed to engage in conversation, when one question is put by another, to answer it as well as we can, find out how each one of us reacts to these things.

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    This is supposed to be a conversation between us. You are going to question me, question the speaker, we are going to have a discussion, a deliberation, take counsel together, weigh together, consider together, to balance things together, it is not one person answering your questions, or your queries, but rather together we are going to have a...

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    ...as we said, this is not a lecture. This is a conversation between you and the speaker. A conversation in which there is no implication of conversion, doing propaganda or introducing new theories, ideas and exotic nonsense. We are going to, if you will kindly, talk over together our problems as two friends, though we don't know each other, we are...

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    But before we go into it rather deeply, if one may remind you this is not a lecture as is commonly understood, to inform and to instruct, but rather it is a conversation between us, conversation between two friends who are concerned with the problem of existence, with all its complexity and intricacies, and they are not to convince each other of anything, they are not persuading each other, they are not doing propaganda at all.

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    ...over this morning together? It is really not a discussion but a dialogue, conversation between two or more people: a conversation between people who are really serious, who are dedicated to the discovery of what freedom means, what authority means - you know the whole problem of existence, what is involved in it. I wish we could talk over these...

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    I believe that we are going to have a discussion, but really it is a conversation, a dialogue. A discussion, the meaning of that word means, I believe, according to the dictionary, argument. We are not going to argue. That is a game that can be played very efficiently in politics, in clubs, in debating societies. And a discussion implies...

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    K: No, we are having a conversation together, in that conversation we begin to see things clearly for ourself, for you. Therefore nobody is helping you, it is a conversation.

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    But this is a conversation between you and the speaker, a conversation about life, about the extraordinary complexity of life, the great sense of travail, anxiety, desperate loneliness, and innumerable tears that human beings have shed, wanting to be loved and never finding it, or if one loves you, there's always the danger and the pain of his leaving.

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    ...can really have a dialogue, who can exchange, who can say, look, I don't understand this, what do you mean by this? Let us talk about it, let's go into it much more so that there is a conversation between the speaker and yourself. Can we try that? Question and answer first, then a dialogue - that is, a conversation between two or three people. We...

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    May I, may the speaker inform you of a conversation he had with a Mr.X, may I? A conversation between this Mr.X and the speaker for several days continuously. This Mr.X has travelled all over the world, more or less, he told the speaker. He is fairly well-read, gone to various Institutions; sometimes he joined them, and with a rush he got out of...

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    K: That's right. That's just it. Can we discuss it or have a conversation about it logically? Using your expertise, your scientific brain and all the rest of it; and there is this man who is not all that, so can't we have a conversation to find out if the general and particular are the one, not divided at all.

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    We were having a conversation between us, a conversation about the great problems of life, conversation about the society in which we live, and all the travail of human life - the pain, the fears, the anxieties, the pleasures and the sorrows, and the innumerable hurts, psychological wounds that we receive from childhood till we die. And we were...

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    ...where we left off yesterday morning? We were talking about together having a conversation, friendly, unbiased, careful examination of what is going on in the world, and what is going on in ourselves, in our behaviour, in our ways of life, and we came to the point yesterday about disorder and relationship. And we were pointing out in our...

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    K: No, just look sir. Look into yourself. I can answer these questions very quickly, but do please enquire. It is a conversation between us two - us two is all of us, you and I, a conversation, in which we are saying: why do I, or you, register psychologically anything?

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    K: But we don't madam, the fact is we have never done it, we haven't stopped this division. I mean if I had a son, or a woman had a son, a Jew with an Israeli woman, what am I to do, they are fighting?

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    K: I want to prevent that. If I have a son and a daughter and I send them here. I would say please help him not to be caught in these traps.

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    So can I respond adequately to the son, to see that he has the right kind of education, not what I think is the right kind of education. I have to investigate what is education, why are we being educated at all. You understand? Why are we being educated? To become engineers, politicians, businessmen? Why should we go through all this torture of...

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    K: You see your son looking at the television for fifty hours a day; you see your son going off to Vietnam, killed, maimed, blinded - for what?

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    K: But don't you - you mean you see it there but you don't feel it, is that it? Would you feel if your - not your - if one's son, wife, husband killed? What a world this is!

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    ...No, don't say no. This is actually what is happening. If you had a son, if one had a son what is one to do in a world of this kind? You don't face the problems. You have children, if you educate them in only one area, small area of life and disregard the rest of it, you must have a neurotic behaviour. Right? A life that is broken up, fragmented -...

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    K: You are unable to see that. All right, sir. Aren't you conditioned by the religion in which you have been brought up? Right? And that religion has been passed from father to son, to son, to son, to son. Generations of superstition. Right? So you are the result of that superstition. Right?

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    K: May I say something without being shocking? Nothing. My son is gone, or my brother, my wife, whatever it is - gone. Which is not an assertion of cruelty or denying my affection, my love. Not the love of my son, but the identification of love with my son. I don't know if I'm

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    ...that question. We suffer and put up with suffering, take comfort in some religion, or some doctrine, or some belief. It is a strange fact, isn't it: if one loses one's wife or son or a relative, we carry that pain all our life. Don't you? I have the photo of my son on the desk, I weep quietly to myself. Or I weep publicly, which is with my...

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    ...that is one of the problems of life, whether it is possible to live without sorrow. What is sorrow? Why, when my son dies - my son, not yours, that's your affair - when my son dies something has broken in me, especially if I am a woman. I have born him in my womb, give birth, and I have nursed him, looked after him, and the pain of all that and...

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    I have a son, I feel responsible. My responsibility consists in having images of what he should do, how he should be, how he should grow up, and all the rest of it. So I am responsible to the image that I have built about my son. So I am responsible not to the son but to the images I have about him. Now what is responsibility? What does that word...

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    ...Let's go on. Look, my son is dead, that is a fact. Then what takes place? The image I have built about my son through the years makes the mind feel empty, lonely, sorrowful, self-pity, and the hope I will meet my son next life, go to a medium, a seance, get in touch with him, all that business. Which is, the mind doesn't observe, live completely...

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    ...Sir, please. I feel responsible if I had a child, a son, a daughter - thank god I haven't got it - if I had one I would feel responsible. I want to know what they are doing, not correct them. I want to see how they walk, how they dress, how they talk, how they eat, what are they thinking about, what company they keep - you follow? - I am...

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    Krishnamurti: You see, I think the Buddhists, and the Hindus, if I am right, have the theory that - the ancient Hindus - the theory that intelligence, or Brahman, exists always and is covered over by illusion, by matter, by idiocy, by all kinds of mischievous things created by thought. I don't know if they would go as far as that.

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    K: Do I see it, as I see the table? Or is it I say, 'Yes, I accept the theory of it, the idea of it,' and then we are lost. Therefore the idea, the theory is the knowledge.

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    K: That's it. Which is psychologically I have no theory about myself, about the universe, about my relationship with another. I have no theory. Why should I have? The only fact is mankind suffers, miserable, confused, in conflict. That is a fact. Why should I have a theory about it?

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    ...clear about the question, aren't we? That is, the observer is the observed, and the thinker is the thought, and so on, when that actually takes place, not as a theory, not as a verbal assertion, but actually as an actual fact, then what comes into being, and what happens when there is no conflict whatsoever? Now we are going to discuss this, go...

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    ...a conversation with two people. When we have a conversation of this kind we are talking over together as two friends perhaps our innermost deep problems that concern our daily life, not some theory, not some speculative ideas or hypothesis, but rather be concerned with something that affects our daily constant life. And so we are not opposing one...

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    K: That's just a theory. I am pointing out to you, madame, you are speculating on something which has no value. A man who will step out of it will act differently. That has no meaning, I am still in the stream. I want to find out how to get out!

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    K: We are going to go into all those things, sir. Shall we discuss this: what it means to be aware. Shall we? Does that interest you - please, not as a theory, not as a speculative formula, but actually find out what it means to be aware in our daily life. Shall we?

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    ...is this possible? Or is it merely an idea, merely a theory? Theory being, as we have explained, the dictionary meaning, is to behold, is to have an insight. The word 'theory' means to have an insight, to have the capacity to observe instantly the truth of something, to behold. Now that is the problem. Thought and non-thought. Thought - when I have...

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    K: So can you help me to be free or, find out what is true security? Is there a deep abiding security? Not in furniture, not in a house, not in my wife or in some idea - find deeply if there is such thing as complete security. Sorry, I'm talking all the

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    So, the brain, the human mind, the brain, needs total security, as in a child, the baby needs complete security otherwise it becomes neurotic and all kinds of things happen to it. Similarly for a grown-up human being the demand and the necessity of security is immense, and that search for security may be in a belief - the Catholic belief, the...

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    ...it together, you are not just playing games with me. The ball is not in your court or in my court. We are looking at it together. The mind, the brain needs complete security to function well, healthily, sanely. Not finding it in anything, in a relationship, in an idea, in a belief, in an image, an intelligent mind rejects all that. But yet it must...

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    ...Surely, isn't it based on their lack of security? Children need complete security, and the parents cannot give that complete security because they are interested in their own little selves. They are quarrelling, they are ambitious, they are this, they are that - you follow? - so they cannot give completely the security that the child demands,...

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    ...is the origin of all this? What is the origin of all our sorrows, what is the origin of all our suffering, aching, anxiety, seeking security? There is complete security in compassionate intelligence. Total security. But we want security in ideas, in beliefs, in concepts, in ideals - we hold on to them, that is our security, however false, however...

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    ...takes place through the whole movement of thought because thought, as we said the other day, is seeking security. The brain cells themselves demand complete order, complete security otherwise it can't function normally. There must be order and complete security for it to survive. And so, in seeking security, thought has built this entity called...

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    We seek that complete security in relationship, in holding on to a belief, however irrational, however stupid, superstitious, traditional - we hold on. However neurotic, we hold on. So is it, the mind, we, not having psychologically complete, total security, from that arises fear? You are following this? Now where is that security to be found? One...

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    ...I must go on with this. Until you see this when I show it to you, you will miss it. Thought wants to be secure, the brain demands complete security because only then it can function rationally. So it has sought security in knowledge, in science, in relationship, in conclusions and it hasn't found security in any of this - in the church, in none of...

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    ...And if you have a concept and are acting according to that concept you are acting neurotically, because in a concept there is no security. And yet the brain, the mind, the physical body need complete security. You understand the question? See what we are doing. Physically we want security, not only for ourselves but for the whole of humanity: that...

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    ...externalising, if I can use that word - giving me security in things in which there is no security: in nations, all the rest of it. Could you help us to find out if there is complete security which is unshakeable?

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    ...past, or living in knowledge, which again is fragmentary and therefore never complete. Action means: to act completely now, the active present. That can only take place when there is complete security. The security that thought has created is no security - this is an absolute truth. And the absolute truth is, when there is nothing, when you are...

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    So we have this problem: this problem of a mind that, of the brain that can only function in complete order, in complete security, in complete certainty, otherwise it gets deranged, neurotic. Right? Therefore I see that any person, myself included, who belongs to any organisation, putting his faith in an organisation, his faith in a leader, is a...

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    ...security, otherwise it can't function. If we hadn't security we wouldn't be here sitting together. Because we have security we can have a dialogue. The brain can only function in complete security. Whether that security is found in a neurotic belief - all beliefs and all ideas are neurotic in that sense. So he finds it somewhere, in accepting...

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    ...happiness - in ideas, in conclusions, in beliefs, in gods, which are all the fabrication of thought as images. In our life there is no complete security, neither in relationship nor in jobs, in anything - there is no complete security. And the mind, the brain demands security; otherwise it can't function properly. As a child demands security, your...

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    ...clothes, and shelter. I must have it, otherwise I can't function. Now that is denied totally when I belong to small groups. Right? When I say I am a German, or a Russian, or an Englishman, I deny complete security. That is, I deny security because the words, the labels have become important, not security. I wonder if you see. Right? We meet this?...

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    K: Yes, that's it. We can talk about it like this - what is attention, we can describe, go into it - at the end of it a listener says, 'All right, I understand all this, but I am what I am. I understand this intellectually, verbally but it hasn't touched the depth of my being.'

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    And what is attention, and what is not being able to attend? You have been here for over an hour, you are tired at the end of the day, you have listened to a lot of words, and if you have gone into yourself you become rather tired. And you cannot, when you are tired, attend.

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    K: Do I really want to talk over together with you, and in the talking over with you at the end of the discussion I am free of that totally, completely - of something. You follow what I mean? Am I serious enough, earnest, intense enough to say, 'Look, I am going to go through this thing right to the very end and be finished with it.'? Do you want...

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    ...colossal mess that we have made for ourselves: the pain, the grief, the sorrow, the uncertainty, the insecurity, searching for security, that's our life. And we are frightened to end this. I know, it is obvious that you will listen to all this but you won't do anything about it. That is the greatest, one of the great sorrows of life, hear the...

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    So we are saying any movement of thought projected in a particular direction, and achieving that end is not basic transformation of man.

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    ...heaven; if you don't, down you go! And all the rest of that business right throughout the world. Our conditioning is based on this reward and punishment. And meditation is not seeking an end. It is not trying to grope after a purpose, a goal, an end. Because if you have a motive then the motive dictates what the end is. And enquiry, like all good...

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    ...must one look at it not only verbally but non-verbally? There is death - the organism by misuse, by abuse, by overindulgence, drink, drugs, accident, all the things that the flesh is heir to, dies, comes to an end, the heart stops, the brain with all its marvellous machinery comes to an end. We accept it. And we are not afraid of the physical...

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    ...Being doesn't take time, the other does. This is too complex, I won't go into it. So I said, be good, which means be aware that your life is contradiction, that you contradict yourself, and end that conflict, end that contradiction - not that you will end it. Do you see the difference?...

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    K: Now, can thought come to an end? To bring that about, or wanting thought to end, we meditate, we practise, we are aware, we go through all the tortures of so-called meditation. Right sir? Would you agree to that?

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    K: You are memorising, not learning. You are memorising. Right? Because at the end of the school, at the end of the term you are going to be examined. And you must answer quickly so you memorise. Now memorising is like a gramophone record repeating, repeating, repeating. Right?

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    That's the end of the questions. At the end of all this one asks, what have we, what has one seen, learnt, observed? Do you go on with the same old pattern of hate and reaction, action, blackmailing each other? Or all that ends - that is, quarrels, a sense of communion, affection, all that.

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    Now, we are saying, go through the part - this is only a part, relationship - go through a part completely to the very end. That means not theoretically, not verbally but actually end your attachment completely. You follow? Completely end it. Face wholly your loneliness. That may be why you got into sexual habits, and to escape from the loneliness...

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    And he asks what is the one thing, one action, one step that will dissolve my confusion, the end to my search. You understand the question? Are you in that position, any of you? Except the questioner? You understand, you have come to the end of your tether. You have read, you have walked, you have heard, you have cried, you have meditated, you...

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    And we said, too, yesterday, when the whole concept of the individual comes to an end, the memory of all the incidents of individuality also come to an end. This is rather difficult to accept or even to understand, or even to be aware of its whole significance. I wonder if we need to discuss more of it. Would you please do we have to talk more...

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    ...pictures, through ideas - you follow? - all that, symbols. So the same movement of confusion, conflict, misery goes on. So our question is: can this movement of our daily life, as we know it, with conflicts, end each moment? You understand? Not at the end of the day because the brain can only function when it is absolutely in order, properly. You...

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    As the questioner points out, historically and actually man has always sought something beyond himself. Man has always said, this is not enough. I have my food, clothes, shelter, I live in this world, I die, but there must be something more. I am sure every human being, at least who is alert, who is fairly intelligent, must have asked this...

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    Now the questioner says also, it is interesting, which is, is it ever possible to perceive the totality of something which is moving? Is the self moving? Is the content of your consciousness moving? It is moving within the limits of itself. Right, sir? I wonder if you Are you following all this? Am I talking to myself?

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    K: The questioner says he is concerned primarily about himself. Is that a fact? Could we start from that? No? Aren't you all concerned about yourself?

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    K: The questioner says, if I understood rightly, and please correct me if I am repeating it wrongly: only a few of us can understand what you are talking about, what about the rest, and if you personally went into your own experience perhaps that might help. Is that it?

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    The questioner understands that silence cannot be achieved, cannot be practised through meditation - right? Cannot be controlled. I don't know why you accept it but apparently you accept it. But what is the ground in which it may come about?

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    K: If one is only experience, the questioner asks, and the experiencer is fear, but only lives in experience, without that experience being recorded and recognised in the future as an experience, what happens. Is that it? I think one has first to find out what we mean by that word 'experience'. Doesn't it means to go through? Doesn't it imply...

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    K: I understand. I think, as far as I can make out, the questioner is asking: as I am walking along something happens in me, and that moves me very much, and gradually that disappears. Again it comes. He is hurt by what he sees around him. He sees there is suffering and he goes through it.

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    K: All right, I've got it. Yes. The questioner says they have heard - must I repeat all this? Can't somebody repeat this? I want to go on!

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    K: The questioner says, please correct me, sir, if I am not representing your question properly - the questioner says, I am very selfish, that is a fact. Why should I give up that way of life. If I am offered something better, positively or negatively, then I will give up what I have. Is that the question sir?

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    So the questioner wants to know whether the self, the essence of selfishness, the self-centred activity, can be denied without suppression, without conflict, without any form of evasion. That is the question. We are not saying that you must negate the I. How can you negate the I? And who is it, as the questioner says, who negates or asserts? When...

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    ...the moment we die, what actually goes on with our life? You know all about it, we don't have to repeat it. If you are grown up, an adult, you work in a factory, or a businessman, a lawyer, from morning till night - repeat, repeat, repeat. And if you are a housewife, you know all that business, one hasn't got to go into all the details of it. So...

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    ...all words, all books, all speeches, all leaders come to an end. But unfortunately we are so heavily conditioned from our childhood to obey, to follow, to find security in a little house, in a little property, with a wife and children and everlastingly work, work, work till you die.

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    K: When our brain has been active from childhood: work, work, work, struggle, pain, learn, don't learn, the whole human struggle, human endeavour, can the brain, which has been so conditioned, can it ever be quiet?

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    As the culture and the civilisation exists now, of which you are part, we are brought up to work for our life, work, work, work, all day long. Right? What a horror it is! To be told, to be under somebody, to be directed, to be insulted, to be beaten down. That is the culture in which we have grown, in which you have been moulded. And to the...

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    I won't fight, I won't compete, I will work because I have put my brain, my capacity into it, therefore I work very efficiently because I have no psychological problems with work, I will not compete with anybody, therefore my capacity, my energy, my way of writing, producing, whatever it is, is complete, therefore there is no conflict, there is no wastage of energy.

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    K: The more affluent the worse it becomes. Not that the poor have this. I don't mean that. Poor people haven't got this either; they are after filling their stomachs, and clothes and work, work, work, work.

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    ...us, rush off on Sundays to church, just to show up that we are there for god to look at us. And go to the office from the age of twenty until you die, work, work, work - the responsibilities, the duties, the pain, the fear, the anxiety, the loneliness. I wonder if one is aware of all this. You may be a successful actor, a lot of money, but there...

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    ...in the West as well as in the East you have to go to the factory, or the office, every day of your life. Get up at 8 o'clock, 6 o'clock, drive, walk, work, work, work for fifty years, routine, and get kicked about, insulted, worship success. Again repetition. And occasionally talk about god if it is convenient, and so on and so on. That is a...

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    K: Self. Look at yourself. That means what? Have confidence in yourself? Do please work at this, as the speaker is working, do work, work at it. Don't sit there half asleep, the house is burning.

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    ...Sir, what are we doing now? What are we doing now? You are listening. I am doing all the work - the speaker is doing all the work and you are listening. If you go away with having learnt the lesson, then you will propagate, do propaganda. When you do propaganda it becomes a lie because it is not yours. If it is yours, you are building, you are...

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    JK: Yes. Say for instance, there are those people who go out to various poverty-ridden countries and work, work, work, and they call that compassion. But they are attached, or tied to a particular form of religious belief and therefore that is merely pity, sympathy but it is not compassion.

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    ...what we are talking about? Total denial of this monstrous culture that made us what we are, each one fighting for himself. And in this culture we say, we must work, change the world, different values, new structure. Why should I work? You say you must work in order to survive, which means maintain the structure as it is. And the reaction to that...

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    ...The other direction, yes. I think our education is responsible for it because we have all emphasized, every culture, except perhaps a few dead cultures, that you must earn a livelihood, work, work, work. And to do that, you know, study, memorize, repeat, repeat, repeat, repeat. That's all we This morning I met some of the students - forgive me if...

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    ...I hope it is not. I don't want I don't No group therapy here. I am asking you to investigate for yourself what is the motive, if you see the truth of this simple fact that when you have a motive, that motive is born of your conditioning, and you strengthen that conditioning. That's all. And therefore you cannot be aware of your...

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    So, to be aware of one's conditioning. You see, I am going to be aware of my conditioning is one thing; and the other is to be aware of it - non-verbally, because the word is not the thing - and therefore the actual perception of it. Can you do this? Not that this is a group therapy or analysis; for god's sake, none of all that stuff. But actually...

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    ...I just began by pointing out, to look at the outer without any judgement. If that is not possible, find out why it is not possible, not how to be free of the conditioning, but why is it not possible. Find out. It is not possible because your whole education from childhood has been to say, develop this conditioning of like and dislike. Right? I...

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    One sees one is conditioned, superficially, and if one is attentive, enquiring, observing, one also begins to question whether this conditioning is right through one, or merely at a superficial level and a little deeper, that's all. So we have these two questions: first to be aware, know, conscious of our conditioning, whether that conditioning is...

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    ...another - the other may be a guru, the priest, or the idea that you surrender yourself to all that nonsense. So what am I to do? My conditioning is - please listen to this - my conditioning is to do something about it. I have been to the priest, I have been to the guru, I have been to the professor, the analyst, which is again doing something...

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    ...We're coming to that, sir. So your action is always based on your conditioning, pleasant or unpleasant, rewarding or not rewarding. That's a fact. And if one's life is based on conditioning, life becomes mechanical. I'm a Christian for the rest of my life, I'm a Communist or whatever it is. I don't want to think, I don't want to observe, I don't...

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    ...as a human being, what is he to do actually? Form another group? Another religion? Another Institution? Or as a human being become aware of his conditioning, be concerned with his conditioning and free the brain from that conditioning. Otherwise we are going to have perpetual wars, there will be no peace on earth in spite of all the religions, in...