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    ...in relationship, in every direction, it has created disorder. Your life. Unless there is absolute order, and I am using the word 'absolute', not relative, unless there is absolute order within that area, the cause to move away from that area is still the product of disorder. You understand? So there must be order. Now how does this order come...

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    And apparently after thirty, forty thousand years or more, we have not been able to live in total order, like the universe which is in complete order, absolute order; not relative order but order that under all circumstances, wherever we live, socially, politically and so on, to have within oneself order, and we are going to probe into that question together.

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    ...which means without any distortion, what takes place? You understand my question? Because where there is disorder there must be conflict. Where there is absolute order there is no conflict. And we're saying there is an absolute order, not relative order. And that can only come about naturally, easily, without any conflict, only when one is aware...

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    K: Didn't we ask, sir, if I remember rightly - it's so long ago - as a human being, living in this world, which is in such turmoil, whether I can have that whether there can be that absolute order first, as the universe is in absolute order, and comprehend an order which is universal.

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    ...But meditation, I think, is something entirely different which we shall go into presently. But one cannot fully comprehend the deep significance of meditation unless one has within oneself complete, absolute order, in our relationship, in our activity. We went yesterday morning into the question of what is order, and what brings about disorder....

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    So we must find out what is order. First of all to find out what is absolute order. There is such a thing as absolute order because the cosmos means order. The universe is in order. But we human beings live in disorder. Nature is in order but when man interferes with nature he brings disorder because in himself he is in disorder. Right sirs?

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    ...and so perhaps it will effect society. We move from that. The enquiry then is, is there an order which is not man-made. Let's put it that way. I won't even call it absolute order, or any kind of.

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    ...all these talks whether it is possible to release this total energy. Do you understand my question? And so first we must find out what is order? Is there absolute order, or is order always relative? You are following all this? The housewife wants order in her kitchen and she doesn't like to stand in a queue to get a piece of bread - she wants...

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    ...should we not go together into this question of what is order? Can there be absolute order? We are using the word 'absolute' in its right sense - complete, total, not an order that is intellectually brought about, an order that is based on value, not order that is the outcome of environmental pressures, or adaptation to a certain norm, certain...

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    ...If you had pain you wouldn't identify yourself with it. If somebody kicked me I wouldn't identify myself with it, but I would identify myself with somebody who gives me great pleasure. So watch it, sir, go into it. I identify myself because it gives me pleasure, gives me security, makes me feel certain, gives me comfort, satisfaction and so on,...

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    ...result of my demand for pleasure. You have understood my question? My principle drive is pleasure - pleasure in every direction. I want to be safe tomorrow because that gives me great pleasure, assurance, certainty.

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    ...it and searching out, asking, demanding, wanting. Our whole religious organisations are based on that. It is a vast entertainment, it gives great pleasure, which is great sensation, that you are in the presence of holy things and so on.

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    ...knowledge is never complete but he forgets that part and only remembers the knowledge which he has acquired. And in that there is great pleasure - sensory, sexual, romantic, sentimental, intellectual, having experiences, which are sensory. So this whole combination of various elements brings this extraordinary feeling of pleasure - right? Why...

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    ...- the Pieta - and you look at it, it is the most extraordinary thing - not the subject, I don't know about that, but the quality of that. And in the perception of it, there is great pleasure, great delight. You go away and the mind thinks about it, thought begins. You say, what a lovely thing that was. In seeing there was great feeling, a quality...

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    ...there is the question of pleasure. Is pleasure different from fear? We always pursue pleasure. Right? By wearing those strange medallions and beads, it is a great pleasure to you, (laughter) obviously, otherwise you wouldn't put them on. That makes you feel you are different from all the rest of us. So is that pleasure different from fear? Or fear...

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    ...there is dependency there must be jealousy, anxiety. Just listen to it, you can't do anything about it, just listen. And when you see it, act, don't keep on saying, 'Why shouldn't I be attached, it gives me great pleasure? And if I am not attached I will be terribly lonely'. Be lonely, find out what it means to be lonely, go through it, look at...

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    So I compare myself with somebody who is great or successful, has a bigger car and all the rest of it, because it gives me energy in my drive to be like go beyond, which is ambition. Is that why you cling to comparison, because in that there is great pleasure?

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    ...remembrance, isn't it? One never says when one is happy, 'How happy I am', it is always after, the remembrance of that thing which gave you pleasure and the remembrance of that pleasure; like a sunset, when you look at the glory of the evening, full of that extraordinary light, it gives great pleasure, great delight. Then that is remembered, then...

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    ...Find out. It happens with some things you don't like. You can drop those things very easily. But something that gives you great pleasure, great excitement, sexual, I don't know, whatever it is. The experience can it be dropped, instantly removed? That's what we are asking in different words. You have hurt me and I know all the implications of that...

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    ...So you blame the image on the society? Is it? Or am I also building an image about myself all the time? Society says you must be a great success. And also to be successful gives me great pleasure. So it is a combination of both. No? So I have built, I am building an image about myself all the time, based on pleasure and pain. (Laughs) I don't know...

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    ...second of perception there is neither pleasure, nothing, there is just perception. Isn't that so? Have you noticed it? Then thought comes and says 'how beautiful that was, how lovely that was, what a great pleasure that gave me'. So thought gives it a continuity: from the remembrance of something in the past as beauty, then thought comes, makes it...

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    ...The desire to be famous and the pleasure in becoming famous or notorious, in having a good house, good taste, good possession, good status, all that. Being good is also a great pleasure. And there is great pleasure in controlling your body completely, and so on and on. Now given all this, being aware of all this, not just little bits of pleasure,...

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    ...- when you can say, 'This is pleasure'? Or you only know it after. You recognise it as pleasure when it is over, which is the movement of thought as time. I wonder if you see this thing! So is there a moment when you say, 'My god, this is great pleasure!' But only when thought, when that incident which has been called 'pleasure', in quotes, has...

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    ...he can't completely convey on that canvas or in words what he feels, and in that also is a form of pleasure. And when that self-expression from which the artist, the writer, the speaker - anybody - derives great pleasure, is that beauty?

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    ...knowledge, but both are based on knowledge. So we are saying that knowledge has a definite place in the world of daily activity, but psychological knowledge, that is, the knowledge that you have about your wife, and you have about your husband, that knowledge is divisive, that knowledge prevents love. You can see this simply. You have an image...

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    K: No. We have said knowledge at a certain level is essential, there you can add and take away and keep on changing, moving - there. But I am questioning whether psychological knowledge is not in itself a factor of the shrinking of the brain.

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    So, we are saying psychological knowledge, which we will go into much more deeply later on, is totally unnecessary because that is what is making the conflict, that is the structure of the 'me' the 'I' the ego; that invents a superego, superconsciousness which is to be brought down and all that game you play. But this accumulation of psychic,...

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    ...has had experiences of various types of houses and halls, and so on. So with that knowledge he builds houses. There, knowledge is necessary, obviously. But psychological knowledge - you follow? - the knowledge that I want this, that I have experienced this, I believe this, this is my opinion, all that, the psychological residue of one's...

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    ...be freedom? And is freedom from the known - you understand when we use the word 'known', all the psychological knowledge that one has acquired, all the various forms of emotional, intellectual gatherings which have become our knowledge, stored up in the brain, and as long as our action is limited to that, can there ever be freedom? I don't know if...

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    K: Yes sir, I think it can, it does. That is, have no psychological knowledge at all, knowledge is accumulation, and so on and so on.

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    ...meeting, it would be absurd. So knowledge has a place. But knowledge, psychological knowledge, which is the 'me', which thought has put together, the self, and the self-centred activity different from, in the relationship with another, and that brings about conflict, confusion, misery.

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    K: Sir, knowledge is necessary at a certain level, and I am questioning very deeply whether knowledge, psychological knowledge is necessary at all. Psychological knowledge - you understand what it is implying? The self is the essence of knowledge, which is accumulated through various experiences, incidents, and so on. All that is knowledge,...

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    Knowledge that one has accumulated through education, mathematics, geography, history, that knowledge in order to survive in this world, to get a job and so on, but also we are functioning with our psychological knowledge, the accumulation that one has gathered through thirty years, forty years, or past generations, inherited genetically. So...

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    So we are asking a very serious question, which is, is knowledge making us - psychological knowledge, not the outward knowledge - is the psychological knowledge making us more and more mechanical, therefore more and more limiting the capacity of the brain? The brain has an extraordinary capacity, infinite capacity, but we have reduced it to a very...

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    K: Yes. You mean I am so stupid that I don't see that this knowledge has very little significance essentially, psychological knowledge, and yet my mind clings to it?

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    2nd Question: Why is knowledge as you said always incomplete? When one is observing is one aware that one is observing, or only aware of the thing being observed? Does awareness lead to analysis? What is psychological knowledge?

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    So we are saying, asking whether knowledge can come to an end, not the scientific knowledge, not the knowledge of driving a car, speaking a language, writing a letter, all the technological, physical knowledge, we are not talking about that, that must go on, that is inevitable, but we are talking about the psychological knowledge which always overcomes, distorts the technological knowledge.

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    ...important. If you are an administrator for government, knowledge is necessary. But psychological knowledge, the knowledge that you have accumulated about your hurts, about your vanity, your arrogance, your ambition - all that knowledge is you. And with that knowledge we try to find out if there is anything most holy. You can never find out through...

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    ...Knowledge obviously is the accumulation of experiences, accumulation of a million years of man's existence. We are not only talking about the technological knowledge which is so rapidly advancing but also the psychological knowledge. One has read various volumes about oneself: what you are, or what you should be. Various theories have been...

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    ...in battle, constantly choosing, denying, asserting, dominating, attached, not attached, it is in constant struggle, boiling all the time. And therefore in that boiling there is a wastage of energy. For that turmoil to come to an end is part of meditation. Not by control, the moment you control, then who is the controller? Please, go into this...

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    K: Let the aeroplane have its voice. You have any amount of them, the lady says. And do you see that having these formulas is a wastage of energy?

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    So, the first thing then is to eliminate conflict which is a wastage of energy. And to eliminate that wastage is to realise the observer is the observed, the Arab is the Jew, the Hindu is the Muslim - only in name - you follow? - it is so silly!

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    ...stuck. Look sir, I see conforming to a certain pattern is not a wastage of energy, keeping to the left side of the road is not a wastage of energy, on the contrary if I kept to the right side of the road when the country says keep to the left, there is going to be an accident and that is a wastage of energy, and so on and on and on and on. And it...

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    ...a distraction. See why. Endless talking about politics, endless reading newspapers and quoting, you follow, isn't that a distraction? Chatting, gossiping, isn't that a wastage of energy, isn't that a distraction? So any form of wastage of energy is a distraction. Therefore we have to enquire: is there no wastage of energy at all? You people don't...

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    ...comes and maintains and sustains itself when there is no movement of thought away from 'what is'. Right? 'What is', is violence. Any movement away from that violence is a wastage of energy, the ideal of non-violence. Therefore when there is no wastage of energy then the mind can deal wholly with the fact of violence, and go beyond...

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    ...need energy for everything we do; to go to your house, to write a letter, to talk to somebody. Everything that we do needs energy. So there is wastage of energy, or energy in which there is no conflict whatsoever. Either there is distortion of energy or energy that moves without any restraint, without any resistance, without any direction, it's...

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    ...doesn't it? Not demands. To face something of which I know absolutely nothing. I can only do that when there is no will, no resistance, no choice - you follow? - no wastage of energy. To face something unknown there must be the highest form of energy. And when there is that total energy, is there death? You understand what I'm talking about? Is...

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    ...Look here, sir. He suggested there is a great deal of wastage of energy in all of us. We waste a great deal of energy. And one of the great outlets of wastage of energy is having concepts. Right? Shall we start with that? Having concepts. Having formulas. Having opinions, judgements. I see that house, I say, 'It is terrible!' Or I see that house:...

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    When you understand the depth of violence without escaping from it, running away to some idiotic ideals, as non-violence, when you look at it, when you observe it very closely, which is to bring all the energy which you have wasted in pursuing the opposite, which is a wastage of energy; when you try to suppress it, it is a wastage of energy which is conflict.

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    ...energy. Right? Then it'll be very clear. Do we waste energy by chattering? Endless talk? Right? Most of us do - endless talk. And is it a wastage of energy to be constantly in conflict - in the office, at home, and so on? Right? Is not conflict within oneself and outside, a wastage of...

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    ...they waste energy? And therefore, all the rest of it. What do you say? Obviously, it is so. If I have an image about myself and that is opposite to your image, they must be in conflict, and therefore it must be a wastage of energy, isn't that so? Don't waste time on...

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    If you act from the past you are wasting your energy, because you are being conditioned by the past, the past tells you what to do or what to think and so there is a wastage of energy because you are not living actually in the present, which is to watch your reactions, your prejudices, your experience actually as you are living now. And you are...

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    ...the sorrow, the pain, the anxiety, the loneliness, lack of love, all that, to observe. Then what takes place? Then you will see that energy is being gathered, because there is order and therefore there is no wastage of energy. Right? When there is mathematical order in your life, daily life there is no wastage of energy. It is only where there is...

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    ...an ideal, a 'what should be' is a complete waste of energy. To call oneself a Hindu, a Sikh, a Buddhist, a Christian is a wastage of energy, because it divides people, it creates within oneself an isolated spirit, a mind restricted, resisting, which is essentially waste of energy.

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    ...Analysis is paralysis. I said this. The speaker said that. And he said, also, there is the analyser and the analysed. Please listen to this. This is as important a question as any other question. Paralysis is the factor of analysis. There is the analyser and the analysed, and it takes time to analyse - time, division between the analyser and the...

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    ...political, religious and so on, but self-analysis, self-delusion, and say, 'I must not be deluded, I must be honest'. So we are asking, saying, it is not analysis because the analyser who says, 'I will analyse' is the analysed. There is no difference - please listen to this - there is no difference between the analysed and the analyser. They are...

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    ...speaker will describe, not analyse. There is a difference between analysis and perception. Analysis implies the analyser and the thing to be analysed. Right? Right? The analyser and the thing he is going to analyse. Which means the analyser is different from the analysed. Are they different? Suppose I am the analyser and I am envious, and I begin...

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    ...I am analysing my anger. Who is the analyser? Part of the fragment which is anger. So the analyser pretends to be different from the analysed. But when I see the truth that the analyser is the analysed then a totally different action takes place. Then there is no conflict between the analyser and the analysed. There is instant action, a...

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    ...the question is not, and the enquiry, is not an analytical process. It is not analysis. You understand? I must explain this, a little bit. Analysis implies division, the analyser and the analysed. The analyser is the past. Right? What he has learnt, from Freud, Jung, you know, the whole psychological knowledge, and the various divisions in this...

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    ...we have accepted analysis as part of our life. Right? If you cannot analyse yourself, you go to the professional. What is the process of analysis? There is the analyser and the analysed. Right? See the division already. Are you following all this? I hope you are, otherwise there is no point in my talking about it. You are examining your analysing...

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    In analysis there is the analyser and the analysed. Right? The analyser is the past and the analysed is the present. The analyser examines the present with the memories, the experiences, knowledge, the conditioning of the past. So the analyser is the conditioned entity, is the past and he tries to understand the present. The word 'analysis' means...

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    So analysis implies time and an analyser. You have to see the truth that analysis is not the way, because the analyser is the result of time, the analyser is conditioned, the analyser is a fragment among many other fragments which go to make up the 'me', the 'I', the...

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    ...it, because we don't know what to do with it, how to be free of it. So we're going to enquire into the whole problem of fear. And first of all to go into it, we are not analysing, because an analyser is the analysed. Are you following this? Is this something new to you? We are saying the analyser is the analysed. The analyser is not different from...

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    ...One dissipates through trying to overcome 'what is', to deny 'what is', to escape from 'what is', or analyse 'what is'. Because the analyser, as we said during all these many talks over many years, the analyser is the analysed. The analyser is not different from that which he analyses. When you're envious or angry or greedy - whatever it is - when...

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    And so, we have separated the analyser, who is investigating the consciousness of himself. I hope this is clear. My consciousness, and yours, is its content. Without the content there is no consciousness as we know it. The content of one's consciousness, one wants to investigate, one wants to look, one wants to find out why that consciousness is...

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    I think this is rather an important question to understand because when we divide the analyser as something separate from the analysed, then in that process of division there is contradiction, there is conflict; either there is suppression, or examination as something outside. But the analyser is the analysed. When one is violent, when there is...

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    ...must analyse it. Right? That is the fashion. We never look into the whole process of analysis, whether it is self-introspective, or professional. In analysis is implied the analyser and the analysed. Who is the analyser? Is he different from the analysed? Or the analyser is the analysed, and therefore it is utterly futile to analyse? I wonder if...

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    ...our pet pursuits, not only analysing the heavens, the stars, this expanding and contracting universe, but also we are analysing ourselves constantly. And we have never enquired who is the analyser. The analyser, if you observe carefully, the analyser is the analysed. Thought has separated the analyser as though he is some superior entity, with a...

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    ...let's make this very clear, we are not analysing, we are merely observing. When you analyse there is a division between the analyser and the analysed - right? - so that division creates conflict, the analyser saying, this is not right, this should be that. But the analyser is starting from a centre. right? The centre which is the accumulation of...

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    ...So, you are afraid of losing pleasure. Just a minute sir, go into it quietly. You are afraid of losing your pleasure. Pleasure - sexual pleasure - right? - pleasure of having clothes, position, car, money - if you have all that - pleasure of your family, pleasure of achievement. So all this pleasure you are afraid of losing. Now, wait a minute....

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    And again pleasure plays an important part, perhaps the greatest part in our life: sexual pleasure, pleasure of achievement, pleasure of controlling oneself, pleasure of possession, pleasure in attachment, pleasure in being free if you have money, if you have position, if you are a politician - and pleasure is not at the actual moment but the remembrance of things past entering into the present and continuing as a pleasure.

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    ...hold this. Wait there. Leave it there. You have had a great pleasure yesterday: sensory pleasure, sexual pleasure, or the pleasure of seeing a beautiful tree, or the lovely sunset, the sunset, the shape, the beauty and the dignity and the strength of a marvellous tree, the pleasure that you have had. All that is recorded. Isn't it? When you see a...

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    ...has made joy into pleasure by thinking about it. No? So there is a difference between joy and pleasure. I have had pleasure, somebody said something nice. I have had sexual pleasure. I have had pleasure in achievement, in success, in making a name for myself, and that pleasure is something entirely different from enjoyment, from joy....

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    ...this by yourself with me? That is, I am asking why thought breeds this fear, as thought also breeds pleasure, doesn't it? No? Sexual pleasure, the pleasure of the sunset which happened yesterday and so on and on and on. So thought gives a continuity to pleasure - right? - and also to...

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    ...it is, sensual, sexual, visual, any kind of experience is sustained by thought. Thought thinks over it, thought chews over the cud, as it were, of sexual pleasure, chews over it, goes over it, creates an image or picture and sustains it, gives it nourishment. So thought gives a sustenance to that pleasure of an experience of yesterday, and gives...

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    ...Because for most of us pleasure is the most important thing in life. No? If we are very, very honest, one sees how we pursue pleasure; taking drugs is a form of pleasure, to have certain experience, sexual pleasure, the pleasure of achievement, the pleasure of success. There are ten different forms of pleasure and we are pursuing that all the...

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    ...you call god, it is ultimately pleasure. Pleasure in multiple forms - sexual pleasure, pleasure of possession, pleasure of attachment, in which is involved fear - but we will go into it presently - pleasure in achievement, in success, pleasure in arrogance, pleasure in having a tremendous reputation. So there are these extraordinary forms of...

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    ...first you have to be good. By your goodness you bring about a good society. And if you are not good inside - good - I am using that word specifically because it is not the goodness, 'Be a good child', I don't mean that. We will go into that perhaps tomorrow, another day. But if there is not goodness in you, you cannot produce a good society. And...

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    Goodness, in the sense that we live together in a world which is ours, this earth is ours, not the American, or the Russian, or the Indian, or the European, it is ours, to be lived in, happily, without violence, without the contradictions of various beliefs, dogmas, rituals, gods, without the national, economic divisions, and a good man, a human being can only create a good society.

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    Then we were saying we should be able to bring about a good society. The ancient Greeks and the ancient Hindus and others have talked about bringing about a good society somewhere in the future, based on some ideals, concepts, intellectual conclusions and perhaps rarely upon their own experiences, that there must be in the world a number of people...

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    ...to that word in spite of them. So we must go into the meaning of that word, 'to be good'. Because you cannot have a good society which has been the dream of ancient Indians, Hindus, ancient Greeks and the Egyptians and so on, to bring about a good society. And a good society can only exist when there is good man, because being good he creates...

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    ...of another doesn't change, doesn't bring about this change - right? If I accept you as my authority because I want to bring about a revolution in myself and so perhaps bring about a good society, the very idea of my following you, you instructing me, that ends good society. I wonder if you see that? I am not good because you tell me to be good, or...

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    The ancient Hindus and the Greeks formulated a concept of a good society. Don't get bored with this. They said a good society is this, this, this. The Greeks said a good society is justice and so on, so on. The ancient Hindus said a good society is only possible if there are a group of people who have renounced the world - please, careful, I am...

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    ...husband, your girl, your boy, your wife, do you love them? Or is it me always the first, and you the second? You understand? And where there is this division, me first and you second, it will never produce a good society. And therefore a good society can only come if you are good; which means you don't belong to any category of religions, of...

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    ...it because you have your own importance, your own knowledge, your own conditioning and you say, 'Sorry'. That is what is preventing us. And if we don't meet there we cannot possibly create a good society. And the speaker says if we do not create a good society we are going to destroy ourselves, whether you are in the western technological world,...

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    Now we are saying - please listen - can we bring about a good society, not ideologically, not as a utopia, not as something to be done, achieved, but a society, which means a relationship between two people is society. You are following all this? Can we as a group create such a good society? Now wait a minute. The Greeks formulated, the Hindus...

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    So how do we, each one of us, create, or bring about a good society? Please, as we said, we are thinking together, we are investigating together, though previously the speaker has said, thought is very limited, thought is fragmentary, broken up, but we must use thought, though it is limited, though it breaks things up because thought is in itself...

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    The Greeks had the same idea: that a good society must exist in the world. And it was an idealistic, formulated, ideological society. Ideas - you understand? - ideals, and according to them they formulated very carefully, the Aristotelian and so on and so on, society, but never existed.

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    ...we are saying - I am getting rather tired, are you? - we are saying a good society can come into being immediately, not something to be achieved in the future. That good society can come into being only when we think together, which means no division between you and another. Then our whole conduct changes. Right, do you see that? Then one does not...

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    ...all kinds of sensuous, sentimental, romantic nonsense. So one has to re-examine altogether these words. We are using the word 'goodness' in the sense that there cannot be a good society outside of us unless each human being is very honest. I am going to explain what I mean by honesty. There cannot be a good society if it is merely accepting a...

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    K: A good society is not some life in the future. Right? It must be a good society now because I am living in here. I want to live peacefully, without danger, without terrorism, without being kidnapped, without being bombed.

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    So can we together think the absolute need of a good society? The society is what we are, society doesn't come into being mysteriously, it is not created by god, man has created this society with all the wars and all that is going on. We don't have to go into all the horrible details of it. And that society is what we are, what each human being...

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    ...movement. There is no movement if it is accumulation. If a river is flowing and it ends up in a lake there is no movement. There is a movement only when there is a constant movement, a constant flow, a strong current. And learning implies that. Learning not only about outward things, scientific facts, but also learning about oneself, because...

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    ...a movement. Right? Movement from this to that, or from there to this. Change this to that, thesis and antithesis, and produce synthesis. It is a constant movement of the image, the word, the conclusion. So when the mind realises, sees the observer is the observed, sees, not just verbally accepts some idiotic idea, but actually realises it in his...

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    K: Sir, just play with this a little. I am moving - learning implies movement, constant movement and that which is moving can never accumulate, and when you accumulate it becomes knowledge, which is necessary to function. But in learning which is a constant movement, no opinion, no conclusion can ever be formed. Ah, I have got it! Right?

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    ...aware of the necessity and the functional value of knowledge. And has knowledge any relationship with learning? I see learning is constant movement, in that I have to function and knowledge is necessary but it is a constant movement. And that movement is not thought but constant awareness, perception, insight. The moment that insight makes a...

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    ...agree or disagree. Find out. Obviously, it is so obvious. Now, what happens then, if dreams are a continuous movement of the daily action, then what happens to the brain, if there is a constant movement, constant activity, constant chattering, what happens to the brain that is constantly.

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    ...Buddhistic attitude, that life is a constant flux. You understand? Constant movement and when that manifests there is an enclosure taking place which becomes the 'you', the 'me', which through time, through constant movement undergoes change, flux, that is their - you understand? The Hindus, the Buddhists, and of course the Christians have their...

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    ...physically and psychologically. That is, the movement from the centre to another centre, or the movement from the periphery to another - you follow? There is this constant movement in all of us. Now if you observe this movement very carefully, and as you observe what takes place in the mind? You are following all...

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    ...going on. But if the mind can enquire if there is such a state at all possible in life, psychologically, a permanency, or, is life a constant movement, a constant state in which the new is always taking place, only the mind can't see the new, and therefore, or rather - it can't see the new because it is constantly living in the past. So the past...

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    We were saying that given the situation of the world, the gradual creeping of dictatorship all over the world, the denial of freedom and all the confusion, the wars and the starvation and the great suffering of human beings all over the world - and this catastrophic existence has not been changed by any experience, by any religious organisation or belief, or through scientific knowledge or the ordinary knowledge that one has gathered through experience.

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    ...absorb it, smell it, taste it, and then you will answer it. What am I to do, living in this world, the world which is made up of ambition, greed, hypocrisy, violence, trying to change this into that, you know all the things they are doing in the churches, you know all that is happening. And I see that all leads to loneliness and that destroys...

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    ...of total transformation of the mind. And seeing what the world is now, the corruption, the poverty, the social injustice, the immorality that is called morality in this world, seeing all that, one becomes very serious, not intellectually, not verbally but deep down in your heart you become very serious. And if you are so inclined perhaps we can...

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    ...yesterday? We were saying yesterday that throughout the world the religions, with their orthodoxy, rituals, with their beliefs and superstitions, have not fundamentally changed man; nor the scientists; nor the philosophers with their extraordinary theories, with their wishes, with their particular conditioning; nor the politicians. As you observe,...

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    We are here for a very serious purpose, and if you are serious - that means committed wholly to the understanding of the world about us and the world inside - if you are serious in that sense, to discover for oneself a way of living in which behaviour, conduct in daily life, and bringing about a radical revolution psychologically, then such a mind is a religious mind, concerned with living a life of truth, every day and every minute.

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    I think one should be aware of what is happening in the world, and not be depressed by it, or optimistic or pessimistic, but to observe impartially, dispassionately what is actually going on. Technologically the Far East is gaining more and more rapidly, advancing more than the Western countries, probably. And the economic situation right...

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    So, if you actually see the truth that you are the world and the world is you - not as a theory, a verbal assertion but an actuality and you see the extraordinary importance that when you basically transform yourself, you'll affect the whole of consciousness of the world - bound to. And won't you, if you are completely, wholly secure in the sense...

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    K: Because I think that is what we are missing in this world, in what is happening now. We don't feel responsible. We don't feel we are responsible because the people in position, in authority politically, religiously are responsible. We are not. That is the general feeling that is all over the world.

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    ...of certain ideas, seems so utterly foolish and meaningless. So if we understand that from the very beginning, then we can go into this whole problem of our relationship to the world, and the relationship of the world to us, and whether human beings, as we are, can ever radically change. Or must we go on endlessly, caught in the trap of this...

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    K: No sir. Just look. Please, don't, we come to a point and go off to something else. I want to find out, one wants to find out whether it is possible to live in this world without a single image.

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    K: And therefore the world is you, you are the world, there is no other thing. If we accept that, if we see that not intellectually, but feel it in your heart, in your mind, in your blood that you are that, then the question is: is it possible for a human being to transform himself inwardly and therefore outwardly?

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    K: Do What is my... Am I separate from that? Or, I am the world, because I have created this world. God hasn't created it. Man has created this misery, this world, of confusion, conflict, wars, tears, suffering. That is the world we have created; we human beings have created it. Isn't that so? You are rather doubtful about it? (Laughter)

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    So first of all, as we were saying yesterday, you are the world and the world is you. That's a fact. Do you see it directly, and therefore act, or do you listen to that statement and draw a conclusion and act according to that conclusion, and therefore not act? You have understood what I have said? The world is you and you are the world. You are...

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    And so as you observe without any prejudice, that the world is in a great crisis. The crisis must be answered. Human beings have created this crisis by their lives, by their beliefs, by their parochial attitudes, by their so-called individualistic freedom, which is no longer free but controlled. We have created this conflict in the world. And I am...

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    K: What am I to do? Wait a minute, sir. So in examining that, I have found out for myself, the world is me, I am the world, there in no other - that's a fact. I have embraced it, I have kissed it, I have hugged it, I am in contact with it, there is no difference between that and this.

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    So meditation is the ending of time. You understand? Because that is what we have done just now, we have meditated, we have meditated to find out the nature of time. Time is actual, necessary to go from here to there, but psychologically time doesn't exist. To discover that is a tremendous truth, tremendous fact, because you have broken away from...

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    ...put it differently. Look sir: we all know we are attached to something or other. Right? Can you end it immediately? If you end it instantly, immediately, that is the ending of time. But if you say, 'I'll go into it, I will analyse it, I will see it is right, it is wrong, it should be, it should not be', then you are repeating the pattern. Right...

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    K: You see the ending of all this, the ending of time we will call it briefly, is it the there is a new beginning. What is that? Because this seems so utterly futile for a moment.

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    ...this. So time has become an extraordinarily important thing to us. And the ending of time, the putting a stop to time is death, for most of us, Please, this is rather important to understand, because we are talking over together a very complex problem which is called death. And to really go into it very, very deeply one has to understand not only...

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    K: Damaged psychologically, the perception of it is the ending of it. Not carrying it over, which is the time. The very ending of it is the ending of time. Is that I think that is clear. Or not clear?

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    ...must have a stop to bring about that creative feeling, that creative action. And it is almost very difficult to understand what it means for time to have a stop because we are going into the question of death, which is the ending of time in a totally different way. So we should understand, not intellectually, but feel our way, investigate, whether...

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    ...to change 'what is' needs time. It is the same movement as learning a language, we have transferred it to changing ourselves into something. And the ending of time, or time must have a stop, means death. Right? We are coming back to it a little...

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    ...you are crying, they give you comfort, the love of Jesus, or he will save you, do this and do that. Do you understand? We are saying, the ending in which there is no time, the ending of time, which is death - you understand?

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    So to be aware of the physical pain, physiological, biological pain and in that awareness not to psychologically get involved with it - you understand? Be aware of the physical pain and the psychological involvement with it which intensifies the pain, bringing about anxiety, fear, and keeping the psychological factor entirely out. Are you...

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    ...that mean can only the free mind attend. I didn't say that. No but please listen to what... At the moment of pain - look: I had pain last week, physical pain, very bad toothache - I didn't have it but I am imagining - very bad toothache, what do I do? I go to the dentist and he does something and that physical pain has left a mark, which is the...

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    One has often physical pain in different forms. Or one may have serious sickness, or crippled, and that sickness, that disease, and so on, not to allow all that to interfere with the freedom, with the freshness of the mind. That requires tremendous awareness, watchfulness to say physical pain not to be registered - you understand? -...

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    When we suffer there is intense pain, not only physical pain, but the subjective, psychic, inward pain. That pain acts on the nerves, our whole thinking is a process of shrinking. And it awakens us to a sense of desperate loneliness. We are saying facts, not imaginative statements: facts. What is. And that sense of shock, sense of loneliness,...

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    ...we have to understand this: what is suffering, if we are to go into this question of death, as we are going to this morning. Is suffering necessary? I am not talking about physical pain. One has physical pain often but to see that pain doesn't distort the mind in action, that pain doesn't make the mind neurotic. So one has to understand not only...

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    ...and see that suffering, that pain, that remembrance of that pain does not affect the mind. That requires an awareness, a sense of watchfulness, a concern, not just to escape from physical pain, but concern to have a mind that is untouched by pain. You understand? Untouched by pain, which means untouched by hurt, because we all hurt from childhood,...

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    ...the body, a total harmony, which we have not. And pain, physical pain, has also its importance, not as a punishment and therefore 'give us more punishment so as to become more pure' which is absurd, but it is an indication that we are preventing the normal intelligence of the body from functioning. And to be attentive of all that and not come to...

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    So thought has seen there has been physical pain last week, it has been registered in the brain - please listen carefully to this - one has had pain last week, it has been registered, which is recorded as memory, and then thought says, 'I hope I will not have that pain again tomorrow.' Right? You are following this? This is a common, everyday...

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    ...is it possible to register only that which is absolutely necessary, and not register anything else? Look: take a very simple thing. Most of us have had pain, physical pain of some sort or another. And that pain is registered because my brain says I must be very careful not to have that pain again tomorrow, or a week later, because physical pain is...

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    ...one has had a month ago. Thought thinks about the future of that pain and hopes it will not occur again. You follow? So thought is responsible for the fear that might happen, take place tomorrow because I have known physical pain. So thought is responsible for fear, physical fear. Right? Look, you have had a toothache, haven't you, and you have...

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    ...No, sir, it's not the difficulty. Free of, in the sense, if you have a pain, physical pain, what do you do - you try to get rid of it, don't you? By taking a pill or going to a doctor or dentist, whatever it is. So in the same way, psychologically dependence breeds pain. Do you see that? Don't say what do you mean by seeing, we've been though all...

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    K: Yes, that is the same - escape, in time it will pass, endure it, accept it. (Laughs) But you don't accept physical pain!

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    ...kinds of pain, physical and psychological. Now, the psychological pain, the agony, the acute suffering - is that what one is concerned with? Or the physical pain, a certain incurable disease, like cancer. How do we meet this? There are various drugs and so on to alleviate physical pain. And one can put up with it. I'm sure most of us have...

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    Perhaps you might say 'Can I be free from physical pain?' If you are really free you will know how to deal with pain, because most of us have had physical pain of some kind or other. And if we are frightened, not being free, then disease becomes an astonishingly burdensome thing. So, if you and the speaker see this thing clearly - not that the...

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    ...create anxiety. You follow this? Do you understand this, sir, what I am saying? Can you observe, be attentive of your physical pain without the 'me' as the centre which doesn't want pain, or is afraid of having pain when the pain has come to an end again? You are following all this? What is the place of pain in life? Is it a reminder that you are...

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    ...thought creates the image out of that sensation, then at that moment, second, desire is born. Clear? No, and I won't go into all of that because we went into it the other day very, very carefully and deeply - into the whole nature of desire. And desire also is one of the factors of...

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    Krishnamurti: Sir, please do not ask questions now, that was the day before yesterday, and on Tuesday. Desire is also part of fear. We went into that very carefully the other day - the nature of desire. Do you want me to go into it again?

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    ...Right? They may worship whatever symbol, whatever person, but desire is there burning like a fire. Right? This is a common fact. And to understand the whole nature of desire, one must go into it very, very carefully. Let's talk about it together, shall we? Join me...

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    ...be successful, desire to be most beautiful, desire to have more money - you follow? - we are full of desires. And unless you understand the nature of desire, those desires will contradict each other and therefore you'll live in conflict. So please listen to it, listen to it not with your little mind, with your words, but with your heart find out,...

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    So it is important to understand the nature of desire, what is desire. Surely desire is a reaction from a stimulus. The stimulus is when you see something, in a shop window, when you see a woman or a boy, or a man, or a beautiful car, or a dress and so on. So desire arises through perception, seeing - please observe it for yourself, it is not...

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    ...so on. It has always been a suppressive process - right? - a disciplining of desire. Now, we are neither suppressing it, avoiding it or transmuting it. We are examining the nature of desire. Right? So there is no question of trying to avoid it, trying to look at it in order to escape from it. We are together going into the nature and structure of...

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    What is the nature of desire? How does desire arise? Why there is such urgent constant desire to fulfil, to become, to achieve? Right? So we are looking into the nature of desire. What is the relationship of thought to desire? Are they related, or are they interrelated? Is desire and thought a movement? Or is desire something separate from...

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    ...of all to find out one must be free of all illusion. Right? Which means terrible honesty so that your mind doesn't deceive itself. Right? Not to deceive itself one must understand the whole nature of desire. Right? Because it is desire that creates illusion, through desire one wants fulfilment, one hopes for something more. So unless you...

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    ...our lives great conflict - one desire opposing another desire, the desire of one object, changing constantly that object. So, one has to understand the nature of desire, not suppress it, not control it, not run away from it. One has to understand, which is our problem now. Our problem, I'm facing it. I hope you are facing it. It's our problem. And...

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    ...is the same. There is no noble desire and ignoble desire, but only desire. Are we coming together? Are we understanding each other? So we are going together to examine very carefully the nature of desire. Because for us desire, with its will is the constant factor in life. Desire is will, is the summation of desire - will, and we operate, function...

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    ...understanding the nature and the structure of desire it'll be rather difficult to comprehend the nature of pleasure. So please, together, and one must repeat this phrase over and over again, together examine the nature of desire. Desire means the want of something; longing for something, craving for something. That's the meaning, dictionary...

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    ...change society by yourself, no government, no politician, no scientist, but you and I, we together, we can change. That is our responsibility. And let us go together and investigate the nature of desire. Why man has been a slave to desire. Why man has said, desire is wrong, you must suppress it as the monks, as the sanyasis, as the religious...

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    ...wonder, are you capturing something? So desire then does not make disorder, as it is doing now. That is, then in the understanding of the nature of desire that very understanding is order, in which there is no suppression, no conformity, no conflict. Have you understood any of this? Well, sir, have some of you understood? Have some of you - not...

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    To go into this very carefully and deeply, one must begin to understand or rather begin to enquire into the very nature of the senses, you understand, the senses: the taste, the smell, the seeing, the hearing, touching and so on, because we are enquiring not that which is beyond all knowledge and thought which is the source of energy, but we are enquiring into the nature of desire.

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    So we are going to enquire into the nature of desire, which dominates our lives: desire for power, desire to understand, desire to find the ultimate happiness, all that, god - this burning inwardly which is called desire, this flame of discontent. And as long as that discontent is not understood, has not been unravelled, broken down so as to...

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    K: He asked me to talk about learning, learning from books, learning by watching, watching the poor people, watching the birds, watching the trees, listening to the song of birds. You begin to be alert, you begin to be sensitive. You understand? Then if the teacher says nicely - and also remember the teacher is tired, probably he has quarrelled...

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    ...as we said yesterday, means - the word comes from the word 'disciple.' 'Disciple' is one who is learning, not the terrible discipline of orthodoxy, tradition, or following certain rules, dictates, and so on, it's learning; learning through clear observation without distortion. Hearing things exactly what the other fellow is saying without any...

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    So to learn - what does learning mean? Not only at the school level, at the college level, at the university level, the technological level, but also learning through experience, in which is involved testing, going through any particular form of experience, and learning from it, and utilising what one has learnt an a means of testing. So I think...

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    Sir, what is important in all this is, not what you have heard but what one is learning. Learning is not accumulation of knowledge. When you go away from here you'll have various ideas about awareness, love, truth, fear and all the rest of it - ideas. And those very ideas are going to prevent learning. But if you are aware of it a little bit, then...

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    Audience: I still don't understand what learning is because if one watches one's thoughts surely one is watching with one's thoughts. So I don't quite understand how you use learning.

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    ...a question, sir: how am I to live in the present. We don't know what it means, therefore you say, 'I'm going to learn about it'. Right? Learn. Now, what does learn mean, what does learning mean? I learn a language and therefore collect a lot of words, verbs, and learn how to put the words and the verbs together - I...

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    ...and all the rest of it. I want to know what I am, I want to learn about myself. Now learning is one of the most difficult things in life because we learn as a way of memorizing, learning to us is memorizing, and with that memory we try to understand ourselves. You understand what I am saying? Are you following this, sirs? So we must be very clear...

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    ...No, no, wait, let me finish, sir. Can you learn from experience - certainly not. Learning implies - learning, curiosity, enquiry, freedom. Are you following all this? Learning. When you are learning something, a new language, when a child learns something he is free, he is curious, he wants to know, he is learning, it's a momentum - not a momentum...

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    ...The word 'discipline' - etymologically - means 'a disciple, who learns', it comes from the word 'disciple'. A disciple is one who is learning - not conforming, not repeating, not repeating slogans, but constantly learning. So what do we mean by learning? When you go to school, college, university, you learn from books, from the professors, from...

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    ...That's just it. So learning is a process of not accumulating knowledge. I have accumulated knowledge - how to ride a bicycle, speak a language - all that. But when I am learning about myself, any form of accumulation as knowledge about myself will prevent further learning. Is this clear? Please. Because the 'me' is a living thing, it is not a dead...

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    ...to indicate not suppression, conformity to a pattern, but discipline means to learn, not to copy. So hearing this is to learn. Learning is not to form conclusions, learning is constantly learning - right. So with regard to suffering, when the mind remains totally involved in that suffering without any movement of thought, then out of that totality...

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    You know, learning means - which is quite an extraordinary problem in itself - to learn. Learning implies accumulation, knowledge. Right? I want to learn Hindi. So I have to accumulate the meaning of words, I have to learn the irregular verbs, then put them together into a sentence. So learning means accumulation of knowledge. Right? Doesn't it?...

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    In learning about myself, in that learning, if there is any form of accumulation as knowledge, as experience, then further learning is impeded by the past. Therefore is it possible to learn without accumulation? That is very important for me to find out. Because if I am learning and if accumulation goes on, there is no learning. Because the 'me'...

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    You know there is a difference between learning and acquiring knowledge. Most of us through college, university and so on, are very good at acquiring knowledge, to us that is learning. That is, to accumulate facts, correlate with other facts, data, our minds, our brains are full of knowledge, of the past - knowledge is the past - and we are all...

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    K: Learning and can one learn about oneself through relationship. Now which of these questions would you like to talk over together?

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    K: All right. So you are part of nature, you are saying. What is your relationship with your nature - all those flowers, all the hills, the trees, the mountain, the dry river - right? - what's your relationship to that?

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    K: Explaining, rather. So if one listens in the same way, without the 'me' to the nature of the individual, the nature of his activities and his organisations, then there is no problem, you have got it, because you are listening entirely without the centre.

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    K: So where does that lead us? We were talking really about insight, that it actually changes the nature of the brain itself.

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    ...Yes. What is the nature of the psyche? What is the nature of a total human being, as it is now, and whether that total human being can be transformed, can be changed? After all you have a student who comes to you, ignorant of mathematics, history, whatever it is, and you educate him so that he has a different mind at the end of ten years. He is...

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    K: Now wait a minute, Scott, do you question why you don't see the whole nature and structure of fear? Or do you say, I don't see, I only see part of it, not the whole of it. Do you question why you don't see it?

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    ...together is actual. The guns, the submarines, going to the moon, and so on and so on are all actual realities. But that reality is created by thought - right? Thought has not created nature. So nature is actual, real but it is not the product of thought. But thought can use the nature, making a chair, which becomes a reality....

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    And we are going to talk about together the nature of what we consider love. This has been a question that has existed among the ancient Egyptians, the ancient Hindus, and recently the Christian world and the Islamic concept; they have all preached, talked about loving your neighbour, and so on. This has been asserted, religiously, in all the...

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    ...life, which is relationship, must inevitably be a series of incidents and conflicts. That's clear. So we are asking: can this centre be understood, watched, see the nature of it, the structure of it, and end it - not verbally, but actually end it? Right? That is our question. Therefore one must observe freely the nature and the structure of the...

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    K: Suffering, yes. So are we saying that it is natural in nature and in human beings to suffer, to go through agonies, to live in disorder?

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    So can we go into it? This instrument and the nature. We have talked about 'what is' from the first time we met you, but what is the nature of this 'what is'?

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    So, sirs, it is important to understand the nature and the structure of relationship. To change this corrupt society you must change, you must change yourself radically. And during all these talks we are concerned about that only: to bring about a mutation in the very mind, in the very cells of the brain.

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    Now what is the brain that says, I do not know, the nature of not knowing - you follow, sir? - the nature of not knowing, what is that? When there is a state of not knowing is there fear in it? Which is death. You follow, sir? When the old brain actually says, I don't know, it has relinquished all knowing. Right?

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    So, please, understand what our conversation is about, which is, in our relationship with each other, as two friends walking along a beautiful lane full of trees and birds and shadows numberless, we are investigating the nature of the brain, nature of the mind, nature of our heart, whether in that structure, whether there can be total transformation so that we are different human beings, with a different mind, with compassion.

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    ...Exploiting. Obviously. That's nothing new - nature has been exploited by man for thousands of years. They are destroying the forests, they are polluting the rivers, they are polluting the air, they are killing animals for pleasure, for food. This has been going on for millions of years. And so when one asks, what's your relationship with nature,...

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    K: Now here, I have explained for an hour and a quarter, in discussion, the nature and the structure of thought. Right? And when you watch the nature and the structure of thought, see where it is important, where it is not important, see the truth of that - you follow? - the truth of its operation and its non-operation, then there is a different...

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    ...of propaganda, not trying to convince you of anything whatsoever. Nor is the speaker your guru. Thank God! Nor are you his followers. You are both the teacher - you are both the teacher and the person who learns. When you are learning, that very act of learning makes you into a teacher. So we are both the disciple and the guru. If you listen very...

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    ...that clear? I am passionate about it, you understand? Because I think this is the most utterly, teacher has the greatest responsibility because he deals with the new generation, and society despises the teacher, pays him very little, he is looked down upon. Haven't you heard when they say, 'Oh, he is a teacher', he is down there somewhere. But a...

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    So can the mind, knowing all this, that is, learning about all this, which is being educated, educating itself, learning from itself, not from somebody else, because no book can give you all this, no teacher, only one has to learn about oneself completely, and then when one is not self-centred, then perhaps one is able to observe, or see, something which is beyond all this.

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    K: No, my question is: what are we trying to do here as a community, as a teacher and the relationship with the student, and the student with the community and with the teacher, together, as a body of people, what is it we are trying to do?

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    ...young people, are told from childhood - are you listening, listen carefully - from childhood you are told to concentrate. Right? You want to look out of the window and the teacher says, concentrate on your book. But you are really interested in watching that lizard on that wall. Right? And the teacher says, don't look, pay attention to the book....

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    K: I prefer contamination! (Laughter) Tell me please. Concern for each other-is that what you are saying? Is that an actuality? Are you concerned about the teacher? Of course not! (Laughs) And is the teacher concerned about you?

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    K: Ah, wait, wait, wait, wait. I said you are both the teacher and the pupil, the disciple. I did not say you are the authority. Are you the authority? If you are then you cease to be disciple and you cease to be the teacher for yourself.

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    K: Generally a teacher has a message and followers - a teacher. Why don't you consider yourself as a teacher and have followers? I have made it all fairly clear, haven't I? Don't follow anybody and don't accept anybody as a teacher except you yourself become the teacher and the disciple for yourself.

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    So, one asks who is the teacher and what is it that we are learning? You've understood my question? Who is the teacher from whom you are learning? If you are learning how to ride a bicycle, you need a teacher. Right? How to drive a car you must have an instructor. How to work a computer, you must have an expert who knows about computers, or if you...

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    There is a lovely story of a teacher who used to give a sermon every morning to his disciples, and one day he was just getting on to the rostrum and about to begin when a bird came on the window-sill and sat there singing, and the teacher became quiet, and when the bird flew off, he said, 'Now the sermon is over'. I wish we could do the same!

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    K: If I am your teacher - thank god, I am not! (Laughs) - if I am your teacher I see you every day. Right? Every day for a couple of hours I see you, I recognise you, I know how you are going to behave more or less because I have watched you: whether you study properly, whether you are looking out of the window, whether you are pulling somebody's...

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    ...Krishna conscious crowd - you know - to which you all belong. You may remember that story of a man coming to a teacher and sitting in front of him cross-legged, closing his eyes and saying to the teacher, 'I am going to meditate in order to reach the highest form of consciousness'. And the teacher said, 'All right, go ahead'. And the teacher...

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    K: So the teacher and the student have to establish a relationship. That means a relationship not of one who knows and the other who doesn't know; he sits on a platform - I am sorry, here there is no platform! (Laughter) So the establishment of right relationship between the teacher and the student is imperative. And the teacher has the...

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    K: So as a teacher, can I look at you afresh? This is very difficult. You understand what I am saying? Can you look at me, if I am your teacher - just put it round the other way (laughs) - I come to your class, I don't know how I am dressed, whether I am clean, neat, fresh clothes, tidy, or I come sloppy. How do you look at me? If I am your...

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    ...Oh my god, what people you are. Sir, let me finish one thing and then you can begin with the other. We said, what is the teacher and the disciple, and what is taught? If both the teacher and the student and the disciples are learning, not the teacher accumulating knowledge and then gives it, then that is merely transferring information. In that...

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    ...on. We are more concerned with our question than with listening. One has to ask questions, not only here but everywhere, of ourselves. And to ask the right question is far more important than to receive the answer. Because the solution of a problem lies in the understanding of the problem; the answer is not outside the problem, it is in the...

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    K: Have you found an answer for yourself, which must be rational, logical, objective, can stand up against any questioning, which can be doubted, not easily accepted? So, have you found such an answer?

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    ...to persuade or coerce or subtly control each other's thinking, or try to be clever with each other. I would suggest that before asking questions, any problem, any issue, we should be clear in ourselves who is going to answer the question. Do we, in our conversation, dialogue or discussion, discover for ourselves the answer, the fact, the truth of...

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    ...You are following? Do you know it? You probably have read a great deal, gone to many libraries, made research or looked into books and literature, religious literature, read intellectual literature and the existentialism, this and that, you must have done all this, and have you found the answer? Or is this the first time that you are facing this...

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    K: Madam, please, what am I to do? Just ask this question, nobody is to answer it, because you have to find the answer yourself. That is where you need energy, passion to find out - not just talk, talk, talk.

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    Whom do you expect to answer these questions? (Laughter) The Delphic Oracle (laughter), the highly elevated priests, the astrologers, the soothsayers, the reading of tea leaves! (Laughter) Whom do you expect to answer this question? But if you are not expecting anyone to answer this question, but since you have put this question, can we talk it...

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    ...to be cajoled, to be persuaded. And we here, this evening, are trying, are communicating with each other so that we can understand our problems. To understand the problem is not to find an answer for it. Please I'll go slowly into the matter. Each one of us has a problem: sexual, drink, business, or if you are inclined so-called religious problems...

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    ...don't know! (Laughter) You ought to know. What a strange question this is, isn't it? Is it necessary to marry in life. What do you say? If the speaker puts this question to you, what will you answer? Is it necessary, sirs and ladies, that I should marry? What would be your answer? Your answer probably would be, do what you want to do, why bother...

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    So, please, we are not answering the questions. We will answer the questions together, explore the question together, and you will have to find the answer for it yourself, not, I answer it and you accept it, or not accept it, which becomes rather silly. But if we could look at the question together, how we approach the question, and investigate...

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    ...don't know what time it is. It's past twelve. Perhaps you would like to ask questions. Before you ask questions we must find out why you are asking questions, and who is it that is going to answer your questions. Because in the very asking of that question - the very asking that question - we are sharing together that question. But if you ask your...

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    We can't expect the speaker to answer your questions, because in the question itself may be the answer. You understand? Not you put a question to me and then I answer you. That's rather meaningless. But how do you regard a question, what is your approach to the question, how do you consider, weigh, take account of the question? Because in the...

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    ...think we ought to ask ourselves why we ask questions, and naturally we must ask questions, but why do we ask questions? From whom does one expect an answer? From the speaker, or from someone who can explain things away? Or can we have a dialogue about a question? That is, you ask a question and the speaker replies to that question. Then you reply...

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    K: Sir, shall we throw up a lot of words into the basket and find an answer? Is that the way to find an answer to a question?

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    ...hair, or this or that, I can't, I mean, it is silly, if I want to have any contact with you it is not possible. But to look at oneself in the mirror and find the answer for yourself in the mirror, because nobody is going to answer it. Then you might say, 'Why are we here? If you don't answer this question as the speaker, what the dickens am I...

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    ...is thinking? Now just listen to my question. I am asking you what is thinking? What is going on in your mind when that question is put to you? Your mind is searching for an answer - right? - searching for a answer in the books you have read, what the Gita has said, or the Koran or the Bible or the Upanishads or the latest philosopher, this, that -...

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    ...when you are being aware? So when you put that question, is the questioner there? You understand? When you say, what am I when I am aware, in that question there is a duality, the one that is aware and the one that says, what am I when I am aware. Then if there is duality then there is no awareness at...

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    ...observe 'what is'. Therefore you have no longer the duality of 'what should not be', only 'what is'. You are beginning to see the implications of it? When there is no 'what should be', the highest principle, you have only this. This is a fact. That is not fact. So you can deal with facts. When there is no duality there is only one thing, say for...

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    K: He says, duality comes to an end, therefore there is only the present. Right? I have not named it, the mind has not named it, therefore what takes place? You haven't done it. If you had done it you would see it.

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    ...There is plenty of space! (Laughs) Sir, so please help me to understand how to deal with 'what is' - then my problem is solved, you understand? Then I won't fight duality, there won't be duality. So please teach me, help me to understand and go beyond it, not remain in it - go beyond 'what...

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    Is duality one of the causes of conflict? That is, there is duality - light and dark, man/woman, you know - duality, you know all that, outward, physical world, in that physical world there is duality - between good cloth and bad cloth, between a nice dress, which is tasteful, good material and bad material, between a good car and a bad car....

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    So, I am questioning, what is duality? Is there a duality at all? Except man, woman, dark, light, all that. You understand? Is there duality at all? Or there is only one thing? I am anger. Duality arises when I must not be angry. So there is only the fact and not its opposite. I wonder if you understand. The fact has no opposite. I can invent an...

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    ...we are enquiring into the cause of conflict. The cause of conflict is - one of the causes - is duality. Right? Violence and nonviolence, that's duality. Good and the bad, hate and love. Why do we have duality? Don't translate it to advaita or some other Sanskrit word and get away with it. Why do we have duality? What is duality? You are a woman, I...

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    ...So there is contradiction. You think one thing and do another. Say one thing and do something else and so on. There is contradiction, opposing desires, opposing demands, opposing movements in all of us - duality. Right? Are we clear on this? May we go on? This duality. How does this duality arise? I am having a conversation with myself....

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    K: My point is: there is no duality even in daily life. It is the invention of all these philosophers, intellectuals, who say there is the opposite, work for that. The Utopians, the idealists. The fact is I am violent, that's all, let me deal with that. And to deal with it don't invent non-violence.

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    ...he is not boasting or trying to be an example, he has a horror for all that kind of stuff - he says yes, it is possible, he has done it. What is conflict? Why is there duality in us? You understand? Saying one thing, and doing something else, contrary to what you have said. And I am greedy, I must not Which is a contradiction. Right? Agree, sir?...

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    ...You understand? Because I see if there is an effort there must be will, there must be resistance, there must be conflict. Right? Which means, when there is the analysis or the action of will there must be duality. Do you understand? There must be duality: the analyser, the introspector, and the thing analysed and looked at - those are two things....

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    ...I understand sir. The questioner says - please correct me, sir, if I am repeating it wrongly - the questioner says the very word observation, seeing, implies duality. That is one thought imposing on other thoughts, the very initiation of observation is to bring about this duality. (Please, madam, we are talking seriously, please stop taking...

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    ...security, when we understand the whole process of becoming. Becoming implies duality, and where there is duality there must be conflict - the Arab and the Jew, the Muslim and the Hindu, the Catholic and the Protestant - you follow - the perpetual state of conflict human beings live in. So where there is becoming there is duality and therefore...

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    K: Sir when we said duality has come to an end, when you say observer is the observed. Duality exists and the expression of that duality is conflict. When there is no conflict between the observer and the observed what takes place? Nobody there to tell you - you follow sir?

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    ...either don't care for the world, you become more and more self-centred, more and more concerned about yourself, your happiness, your way of life - you follow? More and more self-interest. When you are quite young that self-interest isn't too prominent, too defined but as you grow older it becomes stronger and stronger, then you assert yourself, or...

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    Surely most of us co-operate when there is self-interest, when we see profit or pleasure or gain in co-operating, which is based on self-interest, then we generally do co-operate, put our hearts and our minds into it, give ourselves over to a commitment, to something that we believe in and with that we co-operate, with that authority, with that ideal, with that necessity.

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    ...what the scientists are saying, all the books. I don't mean that. I am trying to point out, if I may, where there is self-interest, whether in specialising or in having some skill, linguistics, learning many languages, they are all good but if there is self-interest it becomes... you understand? You understand what I am...

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    ...Stepping out. I am wrong in using those words, stepping out. That stream is self-interest. That is, self-interest is perpetuating all the time, whether it is me or you or - humanity is perpetually caught in that. And that is thought, etc., etc. He says, 'By Jove' - no movement, and therefore when there is no movement you are out of it. Not 'out...

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    So time/thought, self-interest and in all this cycle there is no freedom, obviously. Where there is self-interest there can never be freedom. It is so obvious. So simple if you look at it. And the more simple it is, the more subtle, the more extraordinary depth it has.

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    Self-interest is one of the most deceiving things because it can hide under everything: in politics, in religion, in prayer, in puja, in rituals, it can hide in a family and so on. It is so cunning, so deceptive. And you can't trace all its hidden ways - nobody can, because it is far too subtle. But when there is the importance and the urgency to...

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    ...is it we are caught in - the idea, the concept, the conclusion, the description or the fact itself? Which is that we live in conflict. And this conflict is brought about basically, fundamentally, by self-interest. And then you will say, if there is no self-interest how can one live in this modern world? That is a very common question, and it's a...

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    Is it possible to live in this world without self-interest? What does self-interest mean? What are the implications of that word? How far can we be without self-interest and live here, in the bustle, the noise, the vulgarity, the competition, the personal ambitions and so on and so on? We are going together to find out - right?

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    ...Find out. Rather, you know what self-interest is, don't you? That self-interest can express itself in prayer, in worship, and devotion to somebody - right? And also in knowledge - right? In certain capacities, as a painter, as a musician - right? It hides itself in faith, in belief - right? Right? So we know where self-interest is, it is fairly...

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    K: Quite. So let's move from there. We say as long as you have an image, pleasant or unpleasant, created, etc., etc., put together by thought and so on, there is no right relationship. That is an obvious fact. Right?

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    ...is love the activity of thought? Right? Go on sir. Let's talk it over. Does the activity of thought bring about right relationship between two people? Because if you haven't established right relationship with one another you can sit on your legs crossed for the rest of your life. Unless you lay the foundation of relationship, having no conflict...

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    ...we continue with what we were talking about yesterday? We were pointing out how important it is to have right relationship with each other. As we see it now, in relationship there is a great deal of trouble, conflict, bitterness, jealousy, anxiety. And if we apply our minds, our hearts, to bring about right relationship in which, as we explained...

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    ...romantic, nonsensical, impractical, valueless - it does not give you any money - that is so. So, having heard all this, is there a comprehension of the depth of that word so that your mind is in the heart, and then you have right relationship. When you have right relationship, which means love, you can never go wrong, you can do what you like,...

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    K: But I question whether they are really concerned with bringing about a right relationship between human beings, fundamentally, not superficially, just to adjust themselves for the day.

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    ...So to find out what is right action, because this demands tremendous, you know, inward insight into all this. It demands that you have right relationship with another - right relationship being no image-making at all. We are going into that, if you are interested, a little later. Then if there is fear of any kind, psychologically as well as...

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    And what is important is to find out, as we said, what is right relationship between human beings, not according to some theory, not according to some religious book, not according to what you wish a relationship should be, but rather to examine actually what is going on, what is our relationship to another, actually, not theoretically, not according to what somebody said in ancient times, or modern times - what actually your relationship is with another.

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    ...we continue with what we were talking about yesterday? We were saying how important it is that we establish in ourselves right relationship with others, whether it be an intimate relationship or a relationship with a neighbour who might be next door or a thousand miles away. Because relationship without a conclusion, an image, brings about...

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    ...certainty. And a man who really is concerned to bring about a totally different kind of morality, behaviour, a social structure; until he understands and brings about right relationship with another, he is contributing to the brutality, to the violence, to the extraordinary things that are going on in this ugly, mad world.

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    ...can I find out something that's immensely beyond all this? Beyond time, beyond thought, beyond measure. I can't. 'Till we have established right relationship between us, which is order, how can I find that which is supreme order? So I must begin with you, not with that. I don't know if you are meeting...

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    ...If you're not related properly to nature, the trees, birds, to nature, then you are not properly related to man or woman. And life is relationship, and it becomes very, very important to find out what is right relationship. We'll start with facts, and we're only dealing with facts, not with ideas what relations should be, should not be, what it...

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    ...living is relationship. If there is no right relationship there is no living at all, it is then merely a series of conflicts, either ending up in divorce, or just separation, or isolation with all its anxieties, attachments, fears and all the things that are involved in this sense of being completely isolated. I am sure you know all this. The more...

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    ...with which I am going to look. That I must suppress it, you promise to me by your words, not promise exactly, give me hope that if I have right relationship I will live a life that will be extraordinarily beautiful, I will know what love is and all the rest of it, therefore I am already excited by this idea.

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    ...relationship. And the communists, the socialists, the democrats, the politicians, are trying to change the nature, the structure of society. The basic question is to have right relationship with another. If you have it with one person you have it with everybody, with nature, with all the things of the beauty of the...

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    ...fighting, quarrelling, ambitious. And why does this state exist? Is it not because each person is concerned with himself? So he is isolating himself. In isolation you cannot have right relationship. You understand, this is so terribly obvious. You hear this, but you will not do anything about it because we fall into habit; we fall into a rut, into...

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    ...what is this contradiction? What is this conflict? Please, sirs, do observe it in yourself. The speaker is only a mirror. Either you see in that mirror clearly yourself or it is a broken mirror in which you see fragments of yourself. It depends how you look - not at the speaker, but at yourself. And the speaker is yourself. You understand? Oh,...

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    ...we are communicating, sharing together. Please understand the meaning of that word 'together'. The speaker may sit on a platform, higher up, but that's for convenience only. And when we share together there is no speaker at all, there is no person. The thing that we are examining together matters, not you or I. Please do penetrate into this...

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    ...to answer that question, one has to go into what is the machinery that builds image. Right? Are you also working? Are you also are we together or are you merely learning from the speaker? Don't learn from the speaker, because the speaker has nothing to teach you. You understand? He has absolutely nothing to teach you, because he doesn't accept the...

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    ...Wait, wait. The speaker has nothing to give. But the speaker says, let us talk over as two friends - that's completely different. You are used to - not you, sir, particularly - you are used to being given something, told something, what to do, that is the whole function of the priest, the gurus, the authority. To me all that is absurd. I would...

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    ...problems, not only the problems of the world externally but also the very complex problem psychologically. We are going to talk over together, not accepting anything the speaker says but rather questioning, doubting, enquiring together. So this is not a lecture or the speaker...

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    K: Yes, that is it. One is aware that one holds to what is being said. Now why does one hold on to what is being said? When the speaker says there is no speaker, you are listening to yourself, you are investigating yourself, why do you hold on to a statement made by this person? - which means you are not actually listening to yourself.

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    K: I have been saying there is no authority. I have been saying, please, the speaker is not at all important. You are important as a human being, let us talk about that. But apparently we don't do that. So what shall we do?

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    ...Just a minute, sir. You will ask questions perhaps at the end of the talk, if we have time, but please, quietly, you and I are talking over together. I am not, the speaker is not asserting a thing. He doesn't want you to follow. He is not your guru. He is not your leader. But you and I, the speaker, who wants to show a different way of living. Not...

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    ...kindly, if you are not too tired, if you have still the energy to investigate, we will go into it. We are asking - we know what invention is. Don't accept what the speaker is saying, that would be terrible. It would destroy you. Merely say, yes, yes, yes. It would destroy your brain, as it has been destroyed by others. The speaker has no intention...

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    And the speaker also says, don't follow anybody, specially in the realm of the psyche, neither the Indian gurus, nor the westernised gurus, nor the so-called meditations that these people have invented, taken the old forms and put them into new words, and people, being gullible as a whole, wanting to be secure in some place or other, easily accept all this nonsense.

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    ...and Thursday next week. I am not preventing you from asking questions. Please have the courtesy, the patience, and not get bored, to find out for yourself, not from what the speaker is saying, the speaker is not important, but what is being said together is important. The speaker is not seeking personal worship - there is no personality involved...

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    ...we may, we'll continue with what we were talking about yesterday. I wonder why you are there. I wonder why you sit there trying to understand the speaker, what he has to say instead of trying to understand oneself. It's far more important to understand oneself rather than understand somebody else. It's much easier, much more practical. And since...

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    Are you interested in all this, or have you heard the speaker talking about this endlessly, therefore you are bored with it? I'll go on with it, if you are bored it's up to you.

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    Look, sirs, the speaker has never eaten meat in his life, doesn't know what it tastes like even. And yet he puts on shoes. And one has to live - I don't know why - one has to live, and so because in your heart you don't want to kill anything, hurt anybody, really you mean it - you understand, not to hurt anybody - then you have to kill the...

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    ...to ask questions is very important, isn't it? - and to whom are you asking the question? To whom are you putting the question? To the speaker? Or are you putting the question as a means of enquiry? Which is different from putting the question to another from whom you expect an answer. You understand, sir? You understand what I'm saying? Are you...

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    ...Yes, that is the same thing. When one is very clear you don't choose, when you know exactly what road to take to a certain place there is no choice. It is only when you are uncertain you begin to choose, or ask, question, find out. So I am asking, psychologically choice exists only when you are confused, uncertain - no? When you are very clear...

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    ...understand? Concentration, awareness, awareness with choice. When there is choice there is always 'me' - my experience, my knowledge - me, separate from you. That 'me' chooses; where there is choice there is 'me' and therefore it is still limited. Now we are talking about attention in which there is no centre at all. Therefore if you do it now as...

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    K: We will come to that. We will go into what does it mean to respond without choice. We are used to choosing. That is our conditioning.

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    ...will. You must - when you are children - you must concentrate, you must obey, you must do this, you cannot do that. And our whole way of life is based on that. And will implies choice. Right? I hope you are We are carefully reasoning together, logically, sanely, going into this question. We are not asserting anything. We are reasonable people, I...

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    ...No, sir, we went through that. We said confusion - when there is choice you are confused. Sir, if I don't know which road to take, I am confused. But if I know which road to take I am not confused. Let me finish with that. You are going back to the old thing, which is: choice exists, and decision exists as long as there is confusion. Full stop. We...

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    ...we proceeded from there - to be aware. And if you are aware, if there is any choice, that choice distorts observation. If you say, 'Well, my nose must be straight', (laughs) you are not looking at the mirror. So, where there is choice, awareness is a distorting factor. When there is no choice, that means no in that awareness you are aware of the...

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    So as far as one sees where there is confusion there must be choice and being uncertain the choice gives you the direction, and to follow it you must resist every other form of influence. Right?

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    ...this a little more. Our brains are mechanical - right? - mechanical being repetitive, never being free, struggling within the same field, thinking it is free from moving from one corner to the other in the same field, which is choice, and thinking that choice is freedom, which is repeated. 'I am free because I can choose to go to Zurich'. But if I...

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    Please listen, that is, not to the speaker but yourself. You are asking this question, I am not asking you to ask that question. You are asking that question yourself. Why is there this choice of not to be violent? That's a choice. I am violent, but I'll choose to be non-violent. Why is there that choice?

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    K: Yes. I am not being cynical, sir, please. I am just saying, have you done it? If you have then you know what it means to be aware. That is, to be aware without censor, without judgement, without choice. Right? That is to look without any choice. Right? Which means what?

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    I want to find out why I choose at all, why there is such a thing as choice. Does choice exist when I see something very clearly? It is only when there is uncertainty, no clarity, no perception, then I am forced to choose. But if I see something very, very clearly it is finished, there's no choice. I have to go to London and I want to do something...

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    ...dozen habits. Now, how will you end one of those habits without any resistance? Wait, wait, (laughs) wait, sir. Please, do listen. Because resistance implies choice - and choice implies conflict - wanting, not wanting. And therefore choice invariably arises when there is uncertainty, unclarity, confusion. So what am I to...

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    ...certain way. I wonder If I see something very clearly it is finished. If I see a poisonous snake, I act - there is no will involved in it. And the same thing: decide, decision, which means choice, doesn't it? Decide between this and that. Why do you have to choose? I choose between two materials, cloth, or two houses or this or that, but...

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    ...All that. All that is implied in choice. I choose you as my friend, I deny my friendship to another and so on, so on, so on. I want to find out, one wants to find out if awareness includes choice. Or is awareness a state of mind, a state of observation in which there is no choice whatsoever? Is that possible? One is educated from childhood to...

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    K: Yesterday you said that decision means a choice, choice implies confusion, how did we get into this confusion originally.

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    Because our existence has become so utterly superficial, so utterly meaningless, and a mind that seeks or that wants to find out what is the meaning of life, not what the intellectual intellect gives a meaning, but the actual meaning of life, the living, the existence, one has to go very deeply into this question of relationship. Because, all...

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    ...if there is not harmony, then there is violence, there are quarrels, divisions, all the rest of it follows. So, we are going to investigate together this question of relationship first, because that's part of our consciousness. Right? We understand each other, we are in communion with each other? Uh? I don't know. Are we? Do say, 'yes' or 'no',...

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    ...we should begin, I think if I may point out, that relationship is the whole structure of society - to put it very, very simply. It is a very complex problem, the question of relationship. But to enquire into that question one must begin very near. That is, very near, our human relationship with each other. And then discover from there what is...

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    ...It will have no significance in your life if you merely say, yes, somebody said that. But if you look into it, if you go into this question of relationship and to observe it without any direction, without any motive, just observe it, what is it? First look at what actually is going on. Is it pleasure, sexual, or pleasure of companionship, pleasure...

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    ...sorrow, pain, grief. And we can also discover whether we love, or there is no such thing as love. So we are together, if you will, if you are serious enough to examine this question of relationship, because that is the basis of life. That is the only thing we have with each other. And if we cannot find the right relationship, if we live our own...

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    ...built a wall around ourselves and just peep over that wall occasionally, but unconsciously, deeply, under the wall we are related. I do not think we have paid a great deal of attention to this question of relationship. Your books don't talk about relationship, they talk about god, practice, methods, how to breathe, don't do this, do that, and the...

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    So it is very important to understand this question of relationship because that is part of self-knowledge, part of knowing oneself. Through relationship, which is the outside, you can then move from the understanding of relationship move inwardly. So it is important to understand relationship. Which is, are we related at all to anything - nature,...

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    We have to go into this question of relationship. The way we live in a family - married, husband, wife, children, their education. I don't know if you realise what is happening in this country about education - getting worse and worse and worse. The so-called educated need education. So we must understand this extraordinary complex problem of...

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    Now can we talk over together the question of relationship, and if it is possible to be a light to oneself, not dependent on anybody. Is that possible, to be so completely, totally free from all influence, from all propaganda, from all the tradition that man has built, superstition, and so on, so on, every form of influence, both external and...

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    ...through national sovereignties, through all the rest of it that is going on in the world. So a serious man, serious in the sense who is really concerned, committed, must give his total attention to this question of relationship, freedom and knowledge.

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    ...See the importance of it. We want success; that's a direction - sociologically, politically, religiously, in every way we want to be achieve something, become something, gain something. That's a direction. When we conform, imitate, that's a direction. I say that is the very core of mediocrity. That's what we are - except the present company, you...

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    ...not saying you are wrong, but I am not sure. Which is, I want one wants to be a congressman and, you know, you work for it. You know the direction you want to go, you are aware of all the implications, all the mischief, etc., etc. - you are going in that direction. You also want to be enlightened and you read books and you study what is implied...

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    ...I'll show, if you will do it. Which is, when you look at a map - una carta - when you see a map, you are looking at it with the desire to go to a certain place. So there is a direction. So when you are seeking a direction it is very simple. Right? You are in this town, you want to go to Berne, or Zurich, or Geneva, whatever it is, and the...

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    ...you, in mathematics, learning mathematics. Right? Or geography, history, whatever it is, and you don't give even ten minutes to this. And so you become excellent in one direction and dull in the other direction.

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    ...Yes. That's it, you see, sir. So pleasure has no relationship to ecstasy, to delight, to enjoyment, or to joy and happiness. Because pleasure is the movement of thought in direction. It doesn't matter what direction but in a direction. The others have no direction. Pleasure, enjoyment, you enjoy. Joy is something you cannot invite. Happiness you...

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    ...way. You measure the distance, you know exactly where the road is, and you take that road. So there is no confusion there because in front of you is the map. Because you have a direction. Right? Because you have a direction where you want to go, there is no choice. You just take the best road and go. So where there is direction, you think there is...

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    ...else. Right? I want to become the chief executive of a foundation, some business, and you want to do something else. Right? Desire, which is the essence of will, pushes me in one direction and pushes you in another direction. Right? That is one of the factors in relationship. No? But that's very...

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    ...image. You follow, sir? That is, move with the image means the thought that is building this. And thought is knowledge. So can the mind be can the brain be full of knowledge in one direction and have no knowledge in the other? Right? That means, silence in one direction, completely - not direction, you understand - completely silent and out of...

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    K: No, no, no, no. No, no, we are not saying that. To know your direction - how do you when you use the word 'know', what do you mean by the word 'know'?

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    So, in meditation there is no direction. Right? Direction means from here to there - 'there' being enlightenment, truth or whatever you like to call it. So, a mind that has no - in meditation - no direction. The moment you have there is direction, the space - space - is restricted. Right? Of course. One has to go into this question of space.

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    ...No. Wait, wait - listen to this. Isn't apathy going the same direction? No, see that, sir. You asked a question: if you have no direction don't you just collapse, isn't there apathy, no activity of energy. You see? Which means one is really apathetic when you are moving in the same direction. It is routine, mechanical. I have learnt a lesson, one...

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    ...See the map of all this. You understand when I say, a map? That is, when you are looking at an actual map of the world, of this country for example, can you look at it without direction? You understand my question? You look at a map to go from this place to that place, and you judge how many miles, and all the rest of it. So your brain is always...

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    ...And we said the controller is the controlled. And we went into that sufficiently. And when there is control there is direction. Direction implies will. Control implies will. And in the desire to control there is established a goal and a direction. Which means to carry out the decision made by will, and the carrying out is the duration of time; and...

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    ...we are going to talk about something which demands your careful attention. That is, to observe freely, holistically, means there is no fragmentation or direction in observation. Right? There is no freedom when there is direction; when there is direction there is distortion. It is only when there is complete freedom you can observe holistically....

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    ...been discussing, must inevitably see the whole content exposed, without any effort. It's like reading a map. You spread it out and look. But if you want to go in a direction, then you don't look at the whole map. Then you say, I want to go from here to there, the direction is there, so many miles, and you do - you don't look at the rest. What we...

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    K: Why should I have an opinion about you and you have an opinion about me, why? Why do you have a conclusion about me? Otherwise you wouldn't be here, would you? You miss it. Just enquire, sir, whether you can observe something, observe yourself, observe another, without saying he is a Greek, he is a Roman, he is a Jew, he is an Arab, just to...

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    ...how long I sleep? Right? Do you want to know all that? No, you don't. Be honest, you don't. Right? So what do you want to know about me? You don't know. So why do you have an opinion about me? Why do you have an opinion about each other? That means, I have an opinion about you and that opinion prevents me from looking at you. Opinion interferes...

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    ...what I am saying, that is totally irrelevant. But together to find out if we can clear up this confusion. That means talking it over together, not holding on to your opinion, and my opinion, but I want to find out what is the cause of this. You understand, sir? Is it because each one is so terribly selfish, each one wanting his own expression, his...

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    ...together as we are doing now, how to observe yourself. Not what to think, but how to think. Not my way of thinking, or your way of thinking, or the professor, or the guru, or the specialist, but thinking together without any prejudice, without any opinion. Otherwise you cannot think together. Right? Do we see this? Do we see that you have an...

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    ...what kind of attitudes, what kind of beliefs and so on is one to have? Or, we have tried all those, we have had ideals, various forms of faiths, dogmas, political theories, dialecticism, opinion against opinion, and through opinion trying to find out what is truth. We have had all these and many more varieties of political, religious thinking. But...

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    ...misery and confusion that is going on. So if we could this morning spend some time together having a friendly conversation, not trying to be clever or trying to oppose one opinion against another opinion or belief or conclusion, but together examine earnestly and deeply some of the problems that one has. And so communication becomes rather...

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    K: No, Maria, I mean - not you personally - has one dropped any opinion that one holds? One's prejudice; completely? Or one's experience? Never! This is, you're asking, you know, they say, 'Please' - they won't even listen to you. Do you mean to say a politician will listen to you? Or a priest or anybody who is absolutely caught in his own...

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    ...an image about you. That image prevents me from looking at you. I have knowledge, experience of what you have said to me or done to me. That knowledge, that opinion, that prejudice prevents seeing clearly. Right? You understand this statement? Opinion, conclusion, concept, knowledge prevents, in relationship, seeing the fact. What is important in...

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    So I see first of all, the mind is lazy and likes to live in a rut - the rut being the belief, the opinion, the conclusion. I've talked to several people, and they've formed an opinion about somebody, and you can't shake them - you show the facts, you show the logic of it, the truth of it, nothing doing, because their opinion is right. Haven't you...

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    K: We went into it, sir. Insight implies no recollection, it is not the result of argument, dialectical approach, opinion against opinion. We said insight is immediate perception, it has nothing whatever to do with thought - right? - with time. That is clear.

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    ...suppose I have to talk. If one may, I would like to point out that it is not an entertainment, nor is it an intellectual appreciation and the capacity to argue, opinion against another opinion, or counter one conclusion against another. We are not trying to find what is truth through dialectical methods, but rather together, you and the speaker...

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    K: I don't know what it's like, all that I know, I'm asking, because this has been one of the questions which mankind has gone into and asserted and denied, that there is something which is not put there by thought. Please, you must see this, this is not my opinion, this is what the world is thinking about.

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    ...question of what love is. Not verbally, because the word is not the thing; not intellectually, not argumentatively, not offering opinion against opinion, that merely becomes a discussion, a dialectical approach which is offering one opinion and there is another opinion and through opinion find out what is true. That, of course, that is impossible....

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    ...by either we agree or disagree. If we could put aside altogether from our vocabulary, from our brain, saying 'I agree' and 'I don't agree'. 'My opinion is this and your opinion is that' - judgements. If we could put aside all that and just face facts as they are, not only in the world, but also in ourselves. Things as they are. That demands great...

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    ...Is it that we are all so terribly personal? What I see, what you see, is the only truth? My opinion and your opinion are the only facts we have? That's what the question implies. That everything is relative; goodness is relative, evil is relative, love is relative. And so as everything is relative, that is, not whole, complete, truth, then our...

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    That means listen to find out, listen with care, with affection, not saying, 'Well, I have heard this before'. If you have heard it before and I repeat it again, you say, 'I am bored.' But if you have listened, tested, acted, found out, you will never be bored. Every time you test it there is something new taking place. And if you merely say,...

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    ...in life. Because if we don't find something real, something that is true, life has very little meaning. So if you are really serious to go into this matter very carefully and with care, with attention, then you can share a great deal. But you have to be serious, really serious. And if you're then if you listen to it, listen with care, with...

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    ...Yes sir, I know all that. The baby needs a great deal of affection, care. If the parents don't give affection, care, love to the child, the child withers. It is a well known fact. But generally the parents have their own problems, their own anxieties, fears, sorrows and business worries - you know, all that. And they give the child a little of...

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    ...totally good. I am adding, the speaker is adding the extra words 'to be totally good'. Good in action, good in thought, excellent in the way of life. And that implies diligence, care, attention. Care implies care in your work, in your thoughts, how you bring up your children, how you treat your wife, your husband, care which means affection, love....

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    K: Obviously not, each one is concerned with his own petty little selfish desires. So, responsibility implies tremendous attention, care, diligence - not negligence as now it is going on.

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    K: But I am responsible for the lady whom I have married. Responsible in the sense that I have to look after her, care for her, and she has to care for me. Responsibility means order. But we have become totally irresponsible by isolating ourselves - British, French.

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    So we are going to see whether one's mind, whether one's life, daily life, is accurate, which means care, which means attention, which means diligent application not negligence. There is a difference between diligence and negligence. Diligence means care, accuracy, mean what you say and live a life that is completely correct, orderly, with care....

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    ...you look all around there is then taking all that in - I won't go into that. Anyhow, how do you observe all this? You observe not only with your eyes but you observe with all your care, if you are interested you observe with care. Which means you observe with affection - care means affection. Right?...

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    ...you listen - you may be asleep but the moment he cries you wake up. And you are all the time attentive because the child is yours, you must care for it, you must love it, you must hold it, and so you are so tremendously attentive, even though you are asleep you wake up. Now could you so listen with that same quality of attention, affection, care,...

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    Relationship exists only, doesn't it, when I have no authority over you, though you are my daughter and I care for you, I don't want you to fit into my pattern of what I think you should be, when I cultivate in you independence, freedom because I care, therefore, I say please. I talk it over with you. Then relationship means a communication with...

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    ...and I don't. You have seen it probably immediately and I'll take many years, a long time to come to that. Will you have the - I won't use the word patience - will you have the care, affection, love, so that you understand my stupidity? I may rebel against you. I may divorce you. I may run away from you. But you have sown the seed somewhere in me....

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    K: Quite. Because you are willing enough to listen, good enough to listen. Most people are not, they won't listen. They won't take the time, the trouble, the care to listen.

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    Now, if you have listened to this with your heart and with your mind, with care and attention, which means with affection, then you are learning a great deal. Not from the speaker; the speaker cannot teach you. You are both the teacher and the disciple. And if you have heard what was said it's yours. If you have not heard then it is another's, and...

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    K: So is there an observation of the fact, not the idea, but the fact, with care, with affection? Is there an observation of violence with care and with affection? Therefore there is no - you follow? No, you don't see all this - it is so simple once you capture this! Attention implies care - begin with awareness - awareness implies care,...

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    K: No, sir. That is a complex question, perhaps we will discuss it the day after tomorrow. But see what we have done. That we don't care. Right, sir?

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    K: Wait, wait! I am going to find out. So I am asking is the word different from the feeling? Or is the word creating the feeling? Or if the word is not, is there the feeling?

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    K: Wait, I am asking sir, do look at it a little more. How quick we are, do take time. Mustn't the feeling arise? The feeling won't arise if you are not sensitive. The feeling won't arise if you are not sensitive. You put a pin into me, I am - you follow? - I am sensitive enough to feel the pain. It is only a paralysed leg won't feel the pain.

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    So what shall we do to bring about a feeling that we are not separate, we are together, the feeling, the quality, the feeling of it - you understand?

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    ...according to that conditioning. And part of that conditioning is the association of the word with the thing, never realising the word is not the thing. Now the word fear is not the feeling. So you have only that feeling left. That feeling, that sensation is part of the brain, part of the mind. To observe that feeling with all your senses, then you...

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    K: A feeling of being completely isolated from others. You're facing a cobra, facing something dangerous, and you feel you shrink. The feeling

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    ...also, yesterday, talked about or went into verbally the question of love. You know, most of us unfortunately have not that feeling of compassion: a feeling for the trees, for nature, for animals, for human beings. We have grown callous, indifferent, because we have our own particular problems, our own worries, our own peculiar tendencies and...

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    K: Oh no. You think so. I know it. I have seen it. I have captured it. I know when I am angry. I know when I am wounded. It is not an idea, I have got the feeling, the hurt is carrying inside me. I want to get at this. You understand sir? Am I conveying anything?

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    ...without any dissipation of energy which is attention? Attention is energy. And can you look at yourself being violent - you may not be violent now, but you know what violence is very well - can you look at that feeling and remain completely immovable with that feeling? Any movement is the movement of thought, therefore in that movement there is...

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    K: Is that feeling not painful. Sir, have you ever tried this? You have a feeling, can you remain with that - can the mind remain with that feeling without naming it? Without recognition? Then what is it? Is it pain? Is it sorrow? Look, the moment you say it is pain, there is the process of thinking involved in it.

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    ...sir, no, sir. It's not individual desire. This is important, understand? Look, sir: verbally, intellectually one may understand that psychologically we are all similar, that can easily be logically, reasonably, verbally clear, but the verbal clarity is not the feeling of it. You understand? The verbal statement, the acceptance after argument,...

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    K: I include all that, the whole thing. Of course. I may have a feeling, unless I recognise that feeling there is no feeling. I won't go into that for the moment.

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    K: So what is your background? You understand me? What is the conditioning of your thinking, of your feeling, of your emotions? You understand what I am talking about?

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    K: You see how clever. You see, being at a You follow? The feeling that you are at a loss, not to rely on anything, not to have any support, breeds more disorder. You follow?

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    ...Yes. It is there in the books, or it is there in tradition. Why haven't they pursued that? Even the most intelligent of them, even the most religious devotee - not to some structure but to the feeling of the feeling of the divine, the sense of something sacred - why haven't they pursued, denying, not the world - you can't deny the world, they have denied the word, and made a mess of their own lives - but the total negation of the 'me'.

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    K: I am asking you. How do you respond to all this? What is your reaction, what is your feeling, what is your instinctive or immediate response to it?

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    ...is your reaction? You have an image about yourself that you are not a fool and you get annoyed. Right? Right? So experience of various kinds is registered in the brain, which is knowledge, and that knowledge with its memory is thought. The origin of thought is from the very beginning of time. Right? Every incident, every experience, every pain,...

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    K: It has left a memory, obviously, otherwise you couldn't see that sunset. It has left a memory, left a mark, and the response through thought, is 'I wish I could have more of it'.

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    K: No, no, I can see it in myself. I have to go to that house this evening - or not, I'm just saying I've to go to that house - the memory, the distance, the design, all that is memory, isn't it?

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    ...Let's look at it. Look at it. You have flattered me or insulted me. I react to that. And that remains a memory, it has become my memory - your insult. And the brain retains that memory. I meet a snake or whatever it is, that is again an experience which has been transmitted to me from my generations past that it is a dangerous snake, which is...

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    So in understanding this consciousness, which is, as we said, the whole past memories, the experiences with their knowledge stored in the brain as memory, this memory, not the expression of that memory, but the memory is common. You remember the way to your house, so does the man in that little village thousands of miles away remember from his...

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    The whole image of me is brought about through memory, and memory tells me I have been jealous, and now I recognise it as jealousy and therefore through the process of recognition the present experience of jealousy is translated into the past. Please, look, he is saying, 'The whole is different from the part'.

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    K: Which means what? Have you lost the memory - quiet, please listen! - have you lost the memory of having been attached? I'm not going to - please I'm going to prevent you from answering. Have you lost the memory? All the consequence, all that, when you drop completely attachment? Go ahead.

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    K: I have been insulted yesterday and I have the memory of that insult and when I meet you I meet you with the image of that insult. So my relationship with you is through the image of that memory, through that recollection, so there is no actual relationship between you and me, only the memory of that insult. That's fairly simple, we can't stick...

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    K: We said that. Memory, thought, experience, knowledge is limited. Therefore give him any amount of space inwardly it is still limited.

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    ...also there is an art of learning. There is a difference between memory, acquiring, assimilating, gathering information as memory, and also there is learning: learning as though you were seeing something for the first time, seeing yourself for the first time in a mirror so that you see yourself exactly as you are. When one observes so acutely, with...

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    We are saying we are - we, our ego, our personality, our whole structure - is entirely put together as memory, we are memory. Right? Please this is subject to investigation, don't accept it. Observe it, listen. The speaker is saying, the 'you', the ego, the 'me', is altogether memory. There is no spot or space in which there is clarity. Or you can...

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    ...then they generally disappear, leaving little trace. There may be a few cases in the higher animals where there's some memory, but it's in man that the memory becomes very significant, remembering all these experiences and anticipating the future you get a very different sort of behaviour. For example, with an animal he might have a bad experience...

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    ...are following? And there is also another recording, me first, I am selfish, I want this, I want success. Right? So these two are recording all the time. Which is recording is memory, isn't it? Memory of your father, memory of your mathematics. Right? So recording means memory, which is repeating. Do you see this? When you learn mathematics you are...

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    So thinking is part of memory. You can't have memory if you haven't met your father, if you haven't seen your father, your mother. So you have seen the father and your mother, and that is stored in the brain as memory, and also that is knowledge, and knowledge is based on experience - of course.

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    K: Is memory part of the present? It's there, but memory is the result of an incident which has taken place, which has gone.

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    ...about something or other, darkness, my wife running away, or I am lonely, or this or that. I am frightened, deeply. You come along and tell me, you explain to me the whole movement of fear, the origin of fear, which is time. I had pain, or I went through some accident, incident that has caused fear, recorded it in the brain and that memory of that...

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    Look sir: if I die instantly there is no fear. If I have an immediate heart attack - phht (laughter), gone, there is no fear. But, my heart is weak, I might die, which is the future. The future is the movement of fear. Get it? See the truth of it, not your conclusion, not your saying, 'Yes, I see it'. - the truth of it.

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    ...Fear. Shall we? In the understanding, exploring, going into the whole movement of fear, will you find out - please listen - will you find out the root of all this confusion, of all the misery. Do you understand what I am saying? I will explain, I am afraid - I will go into fear later on. I am afraid. By understanding and being free of fear, will I...

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    ...on, there are wars. So fear is there. Now how am I to learn about fear? You understand? We have moved away from learning about the other movement. We want to learn about the movement of fear.

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    ...fear, you want to escape from it. Just see the subtlety of it. I am afraid and I want to learn about it. I don't know what's going to happen. You follow? I want to learn the movement of fear. So what takes place? I am not running away, I am not suppressing, I am not avoiding it and I want to learn about...

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    ...my mind capable of observing what that fear is, and the depth of that fear? Observing. Now, wait a minute. What does it mean to observe? Right? Can I observe the whole movement of fear, or only partial? You understand my question? Can the mind observe the whole nature, structure, function and the movement of fear - the whole of it, not just bits...

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    Now what is important is how you perceive the whole movement of fear. Either you perceive by negating it - you understand what I mean? - or you perceive it without the division as me and fear, but you are fear. So you remain with that fear. Yes, sir, you are not getting my meaning.

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    ...shall we talk about? We were talking yesterday afternoon about the whole movement of fear, how important it is to be completely, wholly, free of that terrible burden that man has carried through millennia. We said it was a movement of desire, time and thought that bred fear. And out of this fear we invent all the gods, all the rituals that...

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    ...trying to find out - I'll go on - we are now trying to find out what fear is, to learn about it. Is the mind free to learn about fear - learn? Learning being watching the movement of fear, watching it. And you can only watch it, the movement of fear, when you are not remembering the past fears and with those memories watching. You see the...

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    ...We are always translating what others are saying. I am sure as we are going to talk over together this evening the very complex problem of fear, we aren't going to go into too many details but explain the whole movement of fear, and how you understand it, either verbally or actually. There is a difference between the comprehension of words and the...

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    ...the cause of fear not verbally, intellectually, emotionally. Perception is an action of seeing the whole of nature of fear - right? - not the various branches of fear but the whole movement of fear. The movement of fear is time, thought. We went into it. To perceive it not verbally or idealistically but to see instantly the whole nature of fear -...

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    ...That is, you have not, if I may point out, you have not listened. When you make a concept, you are not acting. When you hear this whole movement of fear, the root of it, which is obviously put together by thought, fear is time - right? - fear of the past, fear of the future, fear of - time is involved. And somebody like the speaker says, you can...

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    ...because it seems to be altogether consonant with what you are talking about. And I said to myself, now in our conversations we've been pointing to movement. The movement of fear is one.

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    ...please, come! Because it would be worthwhile if we could think together about this matter. Then you will leave the tent having understood the movement of fear and realising the nature of desire and the nature of limited thought creating time, which is fear. You understand? Do you realise it? Or have you merely accepted the words? You understand?...