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...Perhaps not in India because here perhaps we are thirty, forty years behind. But this is a problem that is facing mankind. That the machine, invented by thought takes all the activity of thought and leaves man what? What has he then? Do you understand all this sirs? It can be told how to meditate, and it will tell you how to meditate - it becomes...

So we are going to go into it further the day after tomorrow when we meet, whether there is a possibility of finding something totally new which is not the activity of thought. Right? May I get up?

So we are asking whether thought, the activity of thought, which engenders, which breeds, which sustains, which nourishes fear, can naturally, happily, easily, come to an end, without any determination, without any resistance, without any activity of the will.

...examining, that is the difficulty. I see personally that the activity of thought is limited, entirely, in any direction, whether it is in the technological world, in the world of the computer and so on, or psychologically it is thought, with all its activity, is limited, and therefore there must be conflict. That is understood. And when that is...

...energy given to the destruction of man; different ideologies; the communist, socialist, the capitalist and so on. Ideologies, spending enormous energy. All this is the activity of thought.

...ambition. And that is one of the activities. And from that will arises the desire to control. Please follow all this. To control - control one thought by another thought, one activity of thought by another activity of thought. 'I must control my desire' - the 'I' is put together by thought, a verbal statement as the 'me' with its memories,...

...desire says, 'I must achieve that something which I experienced yesterday in the sitting quietly, and I want that, I want it to continue'. I practise, I force, I follow a system - all the activity of thought. That's all. What are you objecting...

...an idea of what it calls god, there there is security - god is all omnipotent, god is all just, god is all love, god is all you know, all the rest of it. Which are all the activity of thought. Right? So thought is responsible for the gods, for all the churches, for all the temples, for all the mosques, the whole business of it. And thought is...

My consciousness and yours, if we have been brought up, programmed, conditioned to be individual, then my consciousness is all this activity of thought - fear is thought, we will go into that presently. Pursuit of pleasure is the movement of thought. And the suffering, the anxiety, the uncertainty, the deep regrets, wounds, the burden of centuries...

...religiously, thought has broken up me separate from you, my soul and your soul, my salvation is through there, and your salvation is through there. The activity of thought has produced this. Right? Thought is knowledge, experience, which is the past movement. So there is nothing sacred in thought. And all the things it creates is not sacred. You...

K: In me it is the attachment to the past. Now let's take that, one thing. Attachment to the past. What do you mean by that word 'attachment'?

...because if you continue with all your memories, you know, that's it leads nowhere, it leads to what is called death. But if you see the truth of this continuity, then will you ask the question: how is one to end attachment? Take one simple thing, like attachment, how is one to end attachment? You understand my question? How to end attachment...

...on, sir, please. Or if there is an attachment as an individual for another individual, for an object, for an idea, and there is the ending of that attachment - is there any recollection, remembrance, recording of that attachment? Because I think it is important to find this out, for it may lead us to some other quality of a mind that is whole, not...

...whole energy to find out whether it is possible to eradicate totally fear? Fear has many forms, one of the major factors of fear is attachment - attachment to a person, attachment to an ideal, to a belief, attachment to a piece of furniture - you know what attachment is. And where there is attachment there is inevitably the fear of losing. And is...

...You are free of it, not just verbally say, 'Yes, I am not'. So that is why I asked at the beginning, if I may point out, unless we do this actively, see, aware that it is so in us, and being aware look at it, go into it, search out why human beings hold on to this attachment. Why you are attached as husband, wife, furniture, book, belief, it...

K: Need I translate that? Somebody do it, please. All right sir, I'll do it for you. Don't make it difficult, be simple about it. The fear is the impermanency of ourselves, and the attachment - I'm translating generally - the attachment then becomes the cause of fear. Now just a minute, sir. You see how my investigation is going on.

...and that pain may come back and be afraid of it - that is, physically. The same thing psychologically. I am attached to you and that attachment I consider love, which is nonsense, it is not love; where there is attachment, there is no love. Obviously. We won't go into that for the moment. So I am attached and I am afraid if I let go my attachment...

So when there is freedom from attachment there is love. You understand? No you don't. That means responsibility, so that means order. So can you - realising one of the factors of confusion in our life, of our disorder and misery, is this attachment to ideas, to beliefs, to ideals, to one's country and so on, to wife, all that - can one be free of...

Now one has explained all this: the attachment to property, attachment to people, to conclusions, to your images, symbols, ideas. To have an insight into that, into the whole of it, is the liberation from attachment, not at some future date, instantly. This is really important to understand. When you listen to this do you say, 'I will think about...

Attachment to the country, attachment to an idea, attachment to a conclusion, attachment to a belief, attachment to a principle, are all the same, they still belong to the stream. So I am saying, what shall a man do when he is no longer selfish? How shall he act politically, how shall he act in relationship with each other, man and woman, how...

So maturity is not a (inaudible) but a freedom: freedom from conditioning. And that freedom is not obviously the result of the observer, which is the very source of all memory, of all thought. So can I look with eyes that have never been touched by the past? And that is sanity. (Laughs) Sorry.

K: Practical. Therefore here it is. That is, can a human being live in relationship in freedom and yet operate in the field of knowledge?

...It's always from the known to the known. A movement in time, and therefore time-binding, and therefore never free. And yet we are talking about freedom, you know philosophy, the lectures on freedom and so on and so on. And the communists call it a bourgeois thing, which it is, in the sense when you limit it to knowledge it is foolish to talk about...

...what is it to be free? Freedom is from something - freedom from our own misery, from our own troubles and problems, free to have an economic society that is providing for all human beings, a society that is not too corrupt and so on. Freedom from our own bondage, from our own peculiar tendencies, opinions and judgements in which most of us are...

K: That's what I am asking, sir, there is no freedom from this. As long as you want that there is no freedom from it. You understand? As long as I want a job, I want a good job, money, house, family, I am stuck there. If I want freedom I have to enquire. Right? I have to say, what is freedom, from what?

As I said, freedom from something, like freedom from anger, freedom from jealousy, freedom from aggression, is an abstraction and therefore not real. A man who says to himself 'I must be free from anger or from jealousy' is not free; but the man who says 'I must observe the fact of anger, actually what it is and learn the whole structure of anger,...

K: (Repeating) The other day you talked about freedom and fear, and I would like to know more go into it much more, about freedom in relation to fear. Is that it?

We think freedom is from something else. Right? To be free implies, generally as it is understood, I am free from my sorrow, from my anxiety, from my work - or whatever it is. Which is really a reaction, isn't it? Therefore it is not freedom at all. When a man says, 'I am free from smoking' - I hope you don't smoke, any of you, because it is very...

...first of all is it possible to be free of sorrow? Now, when we use the word 'freedom', it is not freedom from something. You understand? We always want to be free from something, free from every kind of irritation and so on. But we are talking of a freedom that is not from, or away from. Please understand this a little bit carefully because we are...

...Sirs, you don't put your minds to all this. Right? See if it is possible for you, sitting here now, to be entirely free of the image of words. So there is freedom - there is no freedom in becoming. There is no freedom when a man is ambitious, or a woman is ambitious, greedy, envious. He may think he is free because he expresses his ambition. So...

...and sorrow, and if he is a serious man - and I hope you are - then there is only one resolution. Which is, that you, as a human being, who are the result of time, result of your environment, to bring about a change you must radically, deeply change.

...Go slowly, sir, think it out carefully. If one has an idea, a concept, a conclusion, an end to which you conform, to which you change to, or from this to that, is that change? Or is it a continuation of the same thing but modified. You have understood my question? One may project what one should be. The projection of that is from one's own desire,...

...am asking myself, can this violence in me end completely, never to come back again? Are you asking this question? Will you ask that question of yourself? Cause time is not going to change you. So what will end this violence instantly? What happens to a brain, to your brain when you see the logic of this: that time does not change you under any...

JK: Yes. Therefore it is like I have been going along a certain tradition, I suddenly change that tradition there is a change in the whole brain, which has been going North, now it goes East.

So we are saying, if one looks to time, that is tomorrow, to bring about a change then it is futile hope - right? That's clear. Therefore you have to enquire: what is change? Is change in terms of the future? Is change something from that which is to something else? Please go into it, don't... I am this, I will be that. I will be that means...

...various influences, desires, purposes, and if that isn't suitable, one is driven in another direction. And this constant movement from one degree to another degree is called progress, change, and all kinds of things - acquiring knowledge, moving. Right? So we are asking if that is change at all. We are discussing change in the sense, deep...

David Bohm: Well, I thought that perhaps we could go - we raised several questions after these discussions. One was the nature of this ground that we discussed, whether we could come to it and whether it has any interest in human beings. And also we discussed the possibility that there could be a change in the physical behaviour of the brain.

...not the Indian earth and the Muslim earth, it is our earth. And we have created a monstrous, immoral society. To bring about a change in that society, no outside agency, no system, no new Marxism, new ideas are going to change the society. You have to change. Right? And that change can only begin, that revolution, psychological revolution can only...

So what will make each one of us change? Not superficially, adjusting to some words and some ideas, that is no change at all, but something profoundly, radically change. If you do not rely on the outer then you have to rely entirely on yourself. And because we cannot rely on ourselves we seek help, we seek all the gurus, read books and all the...

...form of control. All this, with all its misery, confusion, is the lot of all of us, the life of most people; probably it is yours. And we don't seem to be able to change either ourselves or outward circumstances. Perhaps it is much more difficult to change the economic structure and the political nature, but perhaps we could, if we apply our...

Now what is the brain that says, I do not know, the nature of not knowing - you follow, sir? - the nature of not knowing, what is that? When there is a state of not knowing is there fear in it? Which is death. You follow, sir? When the old brain actually says, I don't know, it has relinquished all knowing. Right?

...Yes. What is the nature of the psyche? What is the nature of a total human being, as it is now, and whether that total human being can be transformed, can be changed? After all you have a student who comes to you, ignorant of mathematics, history, whatever it is, and you educate him so that he has a different mind at the end of ten years. He is...

K: All right. So you are part of nature, you are saying. What is your relationship with your nature - all those flowers, all the hills, the trees, the mountain, the dry river - right? - what's your relationship to that?

...No, no, no, no - why? Why aren't you looking at that flower? Why? First of all, I think, we have given to nature such nature has no value at all for most of us because we say, 'Well, I can see the tree any time I want to'. That's one thing. And also, we are so concentrated upon our own worries, our own hopes, our own desires and experiences,...

K: Completely, specially in big towns, and even in small villages, and hamlets man is always outwardly going, outward, pursued by his own thought, and so he has more or less lost touch with nature. Nature means nothing to him. It is very nice, very beautiful. Once I was standing with a few friends and my brother many years ago at the Grand Canyon,...

K: First of all why is there so much cruelty in human beings? Not in nature, of course, that is natural, perhaps. Why are you so cruel? Not say, 'There is cruelty in nature', why are human beings cruel?

K: Explaining, rather. So if one listens in the same way, without the 'me' to the nature of the individual, the nature of his activities and his organisations, then there is no problem, you have got it, because you are listening entirely without the centre.

K: So we talked, I spent hours, we discussed, we went into it. Gradually he saw. He said, 'Quite right'. So, sir, unless we understand the nature and the structure of appetite and desire, which are more or less the same, we cannot understand very deeply pleasure.

K: We are doing it - find out, sir. But you haven't - have you lost have you had an insight into the nature of the individual and his organisations? Finished. If you have understood that, seen the truth of it, finished, you can never enter into that.

K: Which is, have you, who have understood or seen the truth that you are an individual and therefore no longer - are you still carrying the memories, the structure, the nature of your remembrance, your past, all that, in your mind? Yes, sir, this is a real question, don't...

K: (Repeating) Could we go into communication and attention. All right, sir, let's talk about communication and attention. Any other thing?

...we go into that this morning? Can we freely enquire together into this question? Because communication and relationship always go together. If there is no communication there is no relationship, not only between you and the speaker but also between each other. If we merely remain at the verbal level, at the formal level, that communication is very...

...course not. Sir, when you hold a hand of another, you can hold it out of habit or of custom. Or you can hold it and communication can take place without a word, because both are at the given moment intense, communication has taken place, without a word. But we are not intense, passionate,...

...were talking yesterday evening? Communication with each other, to commune, to communicate something to another, unless they are really willing to listen, however friendly, however good-intentioned, unless one is able to listen to another, communication becomes rather limited, misunderstood, and apt to be misguiding. So we are going to talk over...

...all these questions of yourself. If you have - I am not suggesting that you should, or that you must, but as two friends talking over together, each points out to the other, asks questions of each other, doubts what the other fellow is saying, so there is interaction between the two, there is a communication. And communication implies not only a...

May we stop now? It is an hour and a quarter we have talked. You haven't talked but K has talked. But we have had a communication with each other, because we have established the basis of a communication in which there is no superior and the inferior, one who knows and one who does not know. May we get up? Apres vous: After you! (laughter)

...in English we have to understand the meaning of words, how they are used. And in this communication, that is, in listening to what is going to be said, either we share in what is being said or merely translate what is being said into ideas, into abstractions. Either we share together what is being said and not translate it into an ideology, into...

Listen not only verbally, and the meaning of the word, but also non-verbally - for communication is verbal and non-verbal, and since we are speaking in English, the words have definite meaning and if you don't understand the meaning of the word actually but interpret that word according to your particular conditioning then you will not be listening to what is being said.

K: I understand that, sir. But I want to find (laughs), not a drug, not a medicine, not a way, but there must be a communication between you and me who is the ordinary man, a communication so that the communication is so strong that very my act of listening to you and you communicating with me operates.

...No. I'm just using that. Sir, first see, I'm talking about the word 'communication', not conditioning. We'll come to that. I don't know if I understand it rightly , I am talking - we are talking about that word, 'communication', which means, as I said, to build together. Here, communication means building together, understanding together, working...

And to bring about a unity of all other human beings, it is only religion can do this, bring us all together. Not politics, not science, not some new philosophy or some expansive economy, or various organisations, political, religious, none of them are going to bring us together as a whole. I think this one has to realise very deeply, that no...

...choiceless awareness and a quality of religious wholeness. I mean - we mean by 'religion' not beliefs, dogmas, rituals and the vast network of superstition, but religion in the deep sense of that word, which only comes into being when there is this self awareness and meditation. And that is what we are going to talk about during these four talks,...

K: If you say that's not religion, and you really mean it - just a minute, old boy - if you say that's not religion and you really mean it, then you must find out what is religion, because man from the most ancient of times has said, what is all this, there must be something much greater than all this. From the most ancient Sumerians, the Greeks,...

Krishnamurti: I don't know what you would like me to talk about this morning, but I have been asked by some students that I should talk about religion and God. Is that what you want?

...all, what is this mind that has created this present India? Not only the religion, the superstition, the gurus, the worship of idols, the pujas, the infinite number of rituals, which are all called religion, which are not religion at all, and the corruption, the tradition handed down. The word 'tradition' means to hand out, to give to another and...

...Yes, sir. You know, a word like religion, love, or god, has almost lost all its meaning. They have abused these words so enormously, and religion has become a vast superstition, a great propaganda, incredible beliefs and superstitions, worship of images made by the hand or by the mind. So when we talk about religion I would like, if I may, to be...

K: Right. That we say, that is our life. Then what do you mean by religion, a religious life? You tell me. What is religion to you?

...if you have ever looked at the word 'reviving'. You can only revive something that's dead or dying. Nothing living, you can't revive a living thing. And in this country they are reviving religion. And also they are doing the same thing in different parts of the world. And there is division between nationalities, religion, economic, and so...

...business of living, we are not educated to look and see what happens if we face death. So I was wondering as we came along this morning, religion, which we were going to discuss anyhow, has become merely not only a divisive process but also utterly meaningless. Maybe 2,000 years as Christianity, or 3,000, 5,000 as Hinduism, Buddhism and so on, it...

We meet next Saturday I believe, for questions and answers. Next Sunday will be the last talk. We will discuss together next Sunday what is religion, what is a religious mind, what is something that is beyond all thought, what is meditation and so on. We will go into all that. Right, sirs.

...legally or not legally. And where there is possession there must be fear of losing, and therefore jealousy, hatred, divorce and all the rest of it. So we're asking, is love attachment? Can there be love when there is attachment? - with all the implications of that word, in which there is fear, jealousy, guilt, irritation leading to hatred, all...

K: ...for some woman to put on that fur. And he will go back and say, 'I love my wife'. So. And we are trained to kill. All the Generals, they are preparing endlessly, means of killing others. That's our civilisation, you follow, sir? So, can a man who is ambitious, love?

...is beauty pleasure? And when there is self-expression in any form does it convey beauty? And is love pleasure? Is love, which has now almost become synonymous with sex, and its expressions and all the things involved in it, tenderness, forgetfulness, self-forgetfulness and so on and so on - when thought derives intense pleasure from it, is it...

K: What is love? It has nothing to do with pity, sympathy - all the rest of it. What is love? You don't know. Right? Is it that state of not-knowing love? Oh lordy, you're being mesmerised. It leads so far, so deep that I don't know if you want to go into all this.

So is love pleasure? Do observe it, please. We were saying yesterday evening what pleasure is - the product of thought, having had pleasure of different kinds yesterday, you think about it, you have image upon image built and that stimulates you and that gives you pleasure, sexual or otherwise, and that you call love. And is it love? Because in...

K: So, first, without love. Second, you have no time for them - you go off to the office, she goes off to the office, or she pursues her ambitions - you follow? - so you have no time for them. Third, you are conditioned and they are conditioned. You condition them, and you are conditioned by society, by people round you - you are that. Right? So...

So the questioner says, what is love and how does it arise? My god! It means, sir, first of all, what is love? Can you describe it? Can you put it into words? Or would you find out what is not love? Would you approach it negatively, not positively - say what is love, tell me how to get it. Do you realise, sir, who put this question, what this...

How can there be love - we will go into that word which has been so spoilt - how can there be love when there is fear? How can there be that thing when it has become merely a matter of excitement and pleasure? Is love desire? Is love a matter of excitement? Can love exist when there is ambition, aggressiveness? Can there be love when a human being...

K: No, no don't reduce it to the 'me'. B is of that stream. B says to his girl friend or boy friend, 'I love you' - love is that love?

So we are saying love comes into being only when there is total harmony in oneself, in whatever action one is doing, and so there is no conflict between the outer and the inner. You understand? So to find out how to live that way. How to live a life that is not contradictory, that is not broken up, that is not convenient, comfortable - you follow?...

K: You are not helping, you are putting it into another set of terms. I am afraid - listen to it carefully - I am afraid. Afraid of getting hurt. Now please help me to be free of my fear of getting hurt.

So being caught in fear and in pleasure, which produce sorrow, how can all this come to an end? You follow? How can all this movement of pleasure and fear, which is the product of thought, how can that machinery of thought naturally come to an end? Now that's your problem, isn't it. Right? Is that your problem? Now what will you do with it? Give...

...Now which is it what we are doing now - all of us. Are we making an abstraction of it, an idea of it; or yes, it is so, by Jove, I realise what I have done - I have separated myself from fear, and therefore I am acting upon it, which is, I see the falseness of it, and that fear is me. Is that a fact to me, or is it an idea to me? You follow, sir?...

K: Sir, and also thought helps you to protect yourself, doesn't it, through insurance, through building a house, avoiding wars. Thought cultivates fear and also protects, doesn't it? So we are talking about thought creating fear, not how it protects. Come on, please, is that all right, may I go on?

Any form of resistance to fear - escaping, trying to conquer it, trying to forget it, or even accepting it and living with it - is a wastage of energy. So can we not escape, not try to suppress it, control it, but give all our attention to it, with our heart and with our mind completely, then you will see the conflict between the desire to...

K: I explained, madam, there is both fear from outside and fear from within. Fear of my son getting killed in a war, war is external, the invention of technology which has developed such monstrous instruments of destruction, and inwardly I cling to my son; I love him, and I have educated him to conform to the society in which he lives, which says,...

Then there is the fear of that loneliness. And fear being much stronger than loneliness, you escape from it. Right? You know all this. You escape from it, you run away from it, you smother it, you do everything not to be frightened, or you say, 'I must face this loneliness'. And when you force yourself to face this loneliness there is nothing, it...

K: So, in giving complete attention to the learning about fear there are several problems involved in it. I must be brief because our time is limited. We generally consider fear as something outside us. So there is this question of the observer and the observed. The observer says, I am afraid, and he puts fear as something away from him.

K: Madam, look, I said to you just now, please, we are dealing with the whole of fear, including that gentleman who said, 'I am afraid to get up and speak'.

If I am to die now, immediately, there is no fear. Right? It is finished. But I want to live another ten years, or another five years, and I hope nothing will happen in between that time. Right? So fear is time - do you realise this, sirs? - and thought. Right? No, please, don't - see this. This is very, very important. If you once understand...

...years or more. Religions have also, except perhaps Buddhism and Hinduism, have created wars - a hundred heretics, burnt them, destroyed them. And so man has lived on this earth without any peace. And to live in peace appears to be almost impossible - to live without conflict, without aggression, not only in personal relationships, but also with...

So I want peace and I find peace can be had at a certain price and I am willing to pay for that. But I resist every other method of achieving, peace. I know all that, so I say to myself: can I live completely, right through my whole being without resistance? Not that I must resist this or that, follow this person and not that person - can I live...

...have talked about a great many things. We are together going into very complex problems this morning: why human beings have not been able to live at peace within themselves and so peace with the world. Why our daily life is in such confusion, conflict and misery and sometimes joy, why is it, after all these thousands of years, man has not found...

...in its entirety, they listen partially - agree in the sense, go together up to a certain distance, and stop there. If man really says I must have peace in the world, therefore I must live peacefully, then there is peace in the world. But he doesn't want to live in peace, he does everything opposite to that - his ambition, his arrogance, his silly...

...Yes sir. There are several organisations that talk about peace in the world, various groups that are talking about peace in the world - pacem in terris. The pope says it, other religious organisations assert it - you must have peace on earth. And you are asking, if I understand rightly: are there individuals, groups, organisations that are working...

...with the world, with the environment of which he is part. And until we understand this problem and find out for ourselves whether there is a possibility of completely ending conflict, totally, then we shall never be able to live at peace with ourselves and so with society. It's only a mind that is completely peaceful, not asleep, which has not...

Man has evolved probably a million years or less or more biologically, and man has always been crying for peace on earth; pacem in terris, the old Latin phrase. And apparently there is no peace in the world; without peace we cannot possibly flower. We can possibly, not evolve, but see the extraordinary depth of life, the beauty of it; the...

And also we ought to consider together, what is peace? The obvious meaning is not to have conflict, not to have pain, not to suffer, not to have everlasting struggle from the moment you are born till you die. That is, to have no problems at all and no conflict. Is that possible? Is it possible to live in this world, not run away from the world, is...

So where does one find peace? Because one must see very clearly, without peace we are like animals, we are destroying each other. We are destroying the earth, the ocean, the air. And politically and religiously we look to leaders to unify and bring about peace in the world. But they have not succeeded either. Governments, politicians, religious...

...all want to end war, at least some people do. And pacem in terris, that is, peace on earth, in Latin, is not possible, apparently, in this world, in spite of demonstrations, in spite of all the preaching of the priests and religious books and so on, we can never have peace in this world apparently. And we never ask if one can live peacefully in...

K: Sir, that gentleman asked, amongst other questions, what is action. Is there an action that doesn't bring sorrow? Is there an action that doesn't breed contradictions? Is there an action that is so complete, so whole, that it is finished without leaving any shadow of regret, of saying to oneself 'I wish I hadn't done it', and so on? That is the...

...would that answer many of the questions. Or, would you discuss action, action in daily life, the doing, the way of behaviour, the way of conduct, the way of a relationship in which all action takes place, is there an action that is so totally complete that it doesn't leave a sad remembrance? Is that the question,...

...to money, to pleasure, and thought which has accumulated so much information, both outwardly and inwardly. So I hope you are asking with me, with the speaker, what is the place of thought and what is its relationship to action. Because life is action, relationship is movement in action. And is there an action which is not bound by time as thought...

K: Sir, listen to this - what is action? Action means the doing, isn't it? Which is always in the present. Right? Right? The acting is always in the present. Now what is my action based on? On the past, isn't it? No? Please, discuss, isn't my action based on the past, on my memory, on my experience, on my idea of what I should do, on my...

K: From there you say, how is it possible to convey to others this quality of urgency, the quality of intensity, and action which is always taking place now? Action - doing now, not tomorrow or yesterday.

Therefore there is an action which is non-ideational, and that action is the total revolution of the mind, which is not based on the past. That's enough. Would you like to ask questions?

So I must understand: is there an action which is total, which is complete, whole, not partial. Which means can I observe myself wholly, not in fragments? Or through the fragment instantly see the whole? So is there an action which is whole? I say, yes, there is, definitely. Don't you ask me, what is that?

...hurt and the consequence of it is you resist, you build a wall around yourself, gradually you become more and more lonely, withdraw and from that you act. Therefore your action is distorted. Your action then is violent and so...

Now, look, what is action, in which we are all involved? To come here is action, to listen is action, to think is action, not just moving from here to there physically or going to the office and sweating in the office for the next fifty years, that is also action. If you to talk to your wife, to sleep with her, to do anything is action. And the...

K: Now, Narayan, if I may point out, we are talking over together action in which there is no choice, in which there is no effort as will. Is there such action? I don't know, sir, please.

K: And also, sir, the question arises, can one actually experience something which is not experienceable? We use the word 'experience' so easily - 'realise', 'experience', 'attain', 'self-realisation', all these things - can one actually experience the feeling of supreme ecstasy? Let's take that for the moment, that word. Can one experience it?...

...I am going into it. So in meditation there is no experience. Right? I wonder if you see that. This is very important to understand. Experience implies, the word 'experience' means to go through, not to hold something back, to go through and finish. The meaning of that word. And also in experience several things are implied. When you have an...

And again to be attached to an experience, to hold on to an experience, some experience that you have had, talking or walking by yourself in a wood, you suddenly come or feel this oneness with nature, that there is no division between you and the world about you, this sense of wholeness. It happens and that is an experience which is registered in...

...Yes. Now what is involved in that? What is involved in the demand of our experience, and the experiencing of that demand? I experience what that guru or master, or somebody tells me, how do I know it is real? And I say, I recognise it, don't I, sir? Look, I experience something, and I can only know that I have experienced it only when I have...

K: Of course. Thought is memory, which is experience, which is knowledge, stored up - it doesn't matter where, in my big toe, stored up - and when it is challenged it operates.

...No, sir. That's why the difficulty. Wait, sir, let's finish this first. I am unhappy, miserable, sorrow - laden with it. And I want to experience something which has no sorrow because that is my craving. I want to have an ideal, a principle, or an end, which by struggling I ultimately get that. That's my craving. And I want to experience that and...

So then there is the authority of another, and the dependence on another; there is the authority of tradition, there is the authority of the past as memory, as experience, as knowledge. And there is the authority of an experience which is the immediate. Are you following all this? You have had an experience, and that becomes the authority. And...

So without experience there is no knowledge. The scientists are adding everyday something new. Please follow this carefully, if you don't mind. Experience is limited. Right? Because we are adding more and more to it, through knowledge. Experience, knowledge stored in the brain as memory and then that is the beginning of thought. Right? Am I right?...

...American girls and boys, and it is now spreading throughout the world, have sex very early. Don't be shy, this is happening. They want to have all the experience immediately - swimming, anything - experience - skiing. So they want, as they are young, they want to experience everything at once in a short time. Right? So as they grow older, see what...

So, when you understand this whole nature of experience, you are free from the outward stimulus which gives you experiences. Then if you also reject that, then you have the challenge inwardly, which creates its own experiences. That is, in meditation people see visions, and love to see all these childish things, which are fairly which is the...

K: You are anger at that moment. You are envy at that moment. And so there are many, many moments you are. Right? You are your anger, you are your name, you are your bank account, if unfortunately you have a bank account, you are your family you are your society, you are your god - you are, you invented all this. So, there is no 'you' separate...

So the hurt is not different from me, the 'me' is the image, and that image gets hurt, so I am that image. Like anger is not different from me, I am anger. I might think I am different but in actuality I am anger. So do you see the truth of it - not the idea of it? the actual truth that when you are angry that anger is you.

K: If I don't hold my anger I am afraid I might kill somebody. Look, look. Before you kill somebody, try to find out if you can resolve the anger. To control it is to suppress it. To say, 'I must not be angry' is to create the opposite, and therefore a conflict between 'must not be' and the fact that I am. Right? Or if you try to escape from it,...

...what happens when you when the observer is the observed. You understand? When the anger is me, then what takes place? Have you enquired into this or you just say, 'Yes, I am the observer, the observed'? Meaningless. But to find out or experience, go into it and find out if anger is always different from you. That has been the tradition, that has...

...it. Before I am aware or anything, I say to myself, is it possible for me to watch - casually, I'm playing with it, I am having a game with myself. I am watching the movement of anger arising. I think that's fairly simple. Right? I think you've noticed all that, haven't you? No,...

K: I never said - those are biological demands, but psychologically - anger, envy, jealousy, hate, attachment - can't you end all that? Of course, one can. Then do it! Talk to your wife or your husband, to your neighbour, gently, quietly, with affection, with care. Sir, you make me cry! You don't listen to all this.

K: Look, sir, can you watch, is there an observation of that feeling without naming it? The moment you say, anger, it is violence. Right?

We are saying: what takes place when the observer is the observed which is anger? You can test this out for yourself. Don't accept a thing the speaker is saying, because if you accept, repeat, then you are second-hand human beings, which you are. So, please have the courtesy, the dignity, the intensity not to accept anything, psychologically. So,...

Sir, we have the idea, a concept, a tradition that I am different from my anger. I am the atman and all that kind of stuff, I am different from everything, I am the watcher. Right? I am the controller. As that gentleman points out very clearly, that if I don't do anything now, that is, I won't be attached, I won't do anything about my attachment,...

K: How do I know that anger is a fact and the opinion about anger is a conclusion. Right? Don't you know? The opinion, the judgement about anger is a conclusion. And the fact I'm angry is a fact. For the love of god.

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