Shall we go on discussing, talking over together, the question of fear? Do we?

Questioner: Yes.

Krishnamurti: We were talking about relationship, and perhaps most of us are frightened to face that reality of relationship, and so, from that arose the question of fear. So that we can face our relationship, when there is no fear - that's the question, that's the point we're going to talk over together.

Is it really possible to be completely free of fear, both physiological as well as psychological? One may be afraid of death, of so many things, neurotically, and perhaps healthily, sanely, like fear when you face something dangerous physically, to meet it healthily, which is normal, not neurotically, with fear. So there is both physical fear and psychological fear. Perhaps they are interrelated, one giving emphasis to the other and so on. Can we go into all this? Why do you want to go into it, if I may ask?

Q: I had always thought that the way of dealing with fear, was the way Mrs Simmons spoke about it yesterday, and the fact that there might be another possibility of it.

K: Why does one, I mean, if one is afraid, do you, does one want to go really deeply inside the whole business of it, and be free from it? Does one demand that? Or we don't know how to deal with fears and so we run away from it, avoid it and explain it away. Is that it, we never really want to go into it and completely dissolve it. Is that what is the problem?

Q: I think that when one realises that fear is one of the most inhibiting factors in life, one is bound to go into it, isn’t it so? One must first realise how inhibiting it is.

K: Yes, sir, but what I'm asking is, do we really want to go into it, do we really say, this is a terrible burden, a devastating factor in life, it brings darkness, you know all the nervous responses to fear, and psychological shrinking, withdrawing, resisting, fighting back ; all that which is a form of violence - do we really want to go into it so that our minds are completely free from it? That is the first question I would like to suggest to ask.

Q: I think the answer is no, I think we prefer to go from solution to solution.

K: I beg your pardon?

Q: We’d rather go from the solution to the solution of the fear, rather than to go into the fear.

K: That's it, we want rather a solution of it, how to resolve, the ending of it rather than the finding out the whole movement of it, the whole contents of it, the nature of it. Is that what we're trying to do?

Q: Yes.

Q: Right here we are looking for the solution, too.

K: I beg your pardon?

Q: Right here we are looking for the solution too.

K: Of course, of course. Are you looking for a solution for fear? Or investigating, exploring, finding out the whole nature of it, and so when one really has an insight into it, it's gone.

You know, I'm not a brain specialist, perhaps Professor Wilkinson, Dr Bohm can help us. I think it affects the brain, the brain cells - fear. I've watched many, many people in fear, their minds, their brain is not active, is not agile, fresh, young, it's a kind of disease that eats into one's mind and one's heart, into one's whole being. And if we don't understand the disease but are only concerned with the curing of it, then it will never - we are just playing with each other.

So I want, that's why I ask, if I may, of course most respectfully always, do we really want to go into it, are we deeply concerned with the resolution of it, not how to be free of it, but take step by step into it and discover the whole nature of it and understand it, have an insight into it, and then the thing dissolves.

Q: Are we really aware that fear does play such a large part in our lives?

K: I'm asking, sir, how destructive it is. Because from fear arises violence, all kinds of neurotic behaviour. Please, enter the game, I throw the ball and you don't even play, return it to me, it is always in your court. You understand what I'm saying?

David Shainberg: Doesn't it have something to do with the immediate response to fear, the immediacy of response.

K: Yes, sir, but I want first to be clear that you and I and the rest of us, really want to find out the whole movement, the beginning and the ending, the in-between, the nature of it, the content of it, the destructive nature of it, the real disease of it - it's a much greater disease, more, it's a fearful disease, rather than cancer. Cancer may be partly the result of fear.

Q: I don’t want to go into it, it’s very ugly, it’s very...

K: No, you see, you say it's ugly, I don't know if it is ugly, I'm just frightened.

Q: Well, fear is ugly. None of us like fear.

K: You say so. You say so. You've given a name to it, an adjective, calling it ugly and...

S: Well, we want to get rid of fear because we don't like fear.

K: Therefore...

Q: No, we don’t.

Q: No, I question that. We don’t want to get rid of fear.

K: That's what I am questioning.

Q: Yes. We want a solution to fear.

S: Solution, that's different.

Q: We want to be free of fear.

John King: We want to be able to manage fear.

Q: Manage fear, be free of fear.

JK: Control (inaudible)

Q: OK, then not get rid of it, but free of it, control it.

JK: Be able to handle it.

K: Control it.

S: But that's not dealing with it.

K: No, that's just it.

JK: That's part of the solution.

S: But we don't want to deal with it, we don't want to deal with it, we just want to control it.

K: That's right, sir, let's be clear. Do we want to control it, we don't want to put our teeth into it, but waiting for somebody to help us to be free of fear - a psychologist, some incident, some external god and so on, so on, so on. And so, remain in the meantime in fear. Which is it we want? Please let's be clear on this point.

Q: I think often the fear of something is worse than that thing itself. And so that if one could find out what fear actually is, then...

K: We're doing that. Do we want to go into the whole problem, the nature and the structure of fear, which is structure in the sense, not a building but the movement of it. Structure means movement - the movement of fear, understand it, go very, very deeply into it, and resolve it completely. Or we are waiting because we want to control it, we want to escape from it and so on, so on, so on.

Q: Well, I think that’s where we have to part from our likes and...

K: No, just take - no, don't - like and dislike, don't bring that in.

Q: Or want and not want.

K: No, I don't want, that's another problem.

Q: You’re asking if we want to go into it.

K: Want in the sense, sir, is that our intent.

Q: Well, then, then there is no question of like.

K: Is that our resolve, it doesn't matter what word you use. Is it our intent to go into this very deeply and resolve it, by understanding it, looking at it and so on. Or we just want to control it, suppress it, and not discover what it is. Or wait for somebody to help us to be out of it.

Q: Yes, but aren’t we...

K: This is, please this is a very serious question, give your thought to it.

Scott Forbes: We say that if we want to, we look at fear in order to get rid of it, then that's a bad reason for looking at it, and we won't discover anything.

K: No, Scott, is it our intent?

SF: What would be a correct intention? What would be a correct reason and therefore a correct approach to looking at fear? Because there's obviously some bad ones.

K: You were going to say something.

JK: I was just going to say, what is the fact, start with the fact of fear. If you have the intention of going into it, or you just want to resolve it, find out what the fact is in you and start from there. If you haven't got it, if you can discover that, whether you want to resolve it, then you can start from that fact. And then move on from there. You have to find out in yourself what the fact is about fear, how you feel towards it, whether you want to resolve it, or go into it. That's where you start. I'm not explaining it well.

K: Is this clear to each one of us?

Q: But you need space to look at and the space could be caused by an escape.

K: No. Miss McCann, I'm asking a simple question, for god's sake! It's simple: do we want somebody to resolve it for us or - wait sir, I haven't finished yet, please.

Q: Excuse me.

K: Forgive me. Somebody to say, 'Well, do this and you'll be free of it'. Or do we want to go together into this whole nature of fear, not suppressing it, not avoiding it, looking at the whole movement of our fears, avoidance, escapes, and trying to find a solution for it and so on. Which is it you want?

Q: Are you suggesting that most people haven’t got the serious intention of going the whole way into it?

K: That's right, sir. That's all I'm trying to find out.

Q: I think most of us do have the intent to go into it, but we’re afraid of...

K: Afraid.

Q: ...of what we’re going to see.

K: Yes, so still fear, it is still fear.

David Bohm: It seems that you're saying that we cannot have the very serious intention to go into fear unless we are free of fear.

K: What, sir? I can't hear.

DB: It seems to be implied that we cannot have a serious intention to investigate fear unless we are already free of fear.

K: That's right. Have we - let me put it as Dr Bohm points out, have we the serious intent to go into it. That's all I'm asking.

Q: No. Dr Bohm says

Q: But he did say you have to be free.

Q: Yes, being serious implies that you are already free from fear.

S: Is that true, do you think? Dr Bohm just said that we have to be free of fear before we can even be serious about it.

K: Oh, no. No. Then I'll wait till Doomsday.

S: That's right. That's the problem, that's what he said.

DB: But you see, one begins with apparently a serious intention to investigate fear, and then one finds one is afraid of what one will discover.

Q: Yes.

K: This is a simple thing, sir, I can't I don't understand why you are making it so complicated. I'm afraid. I know I want to find somebody to help me to be rid of it. Or I'm waiting for god to help me to get rid of it, to be free of it. That's one thing. Either control it, suppress it, run away from it. Or do I want to go into the whole nature of it. You understand, sir? Put it the other way: I want to learn all about fear. Can't I do that?

Q: To be afraid without resistance, you mean? Just to be afraid, stay in it.

K: No, sir. See how difficult it is to come to some common factor? (Laughs)

Q: One can have the conscious intention of investigating fear, but then you’ve added a further thing; you said, in order to be free of it we don’t know at this moment what will happen.

K: But you do know you're frightened, don't you? Or is that

Q: Yes, I know that. And I know I want to investigate it.

K: That's all, that's all we're asking. Do you want to investigate it, or do you want somebody to say, 'Do this, and you will be free of it'.

Q: No, I want to investigate it. I want to investigate it.

K: Let's be sure, all of us, what we want to do about this, for god's sake don't waste time, please!

Q: Obviously we don’t want to analyse it.

K: I give up.

Q: We want just palliatives, we don’t find out the whole structure, nature, mechanism of fear.

K: You want to understand it?

Q: Absolutely.

K: So, which is it, all of us, which is it that you want to do?

Q: I want to do the same. I want to understand the mechanics of it. But I am afraid of what will come or what will go, if I do understand it.

K: Yes, which means you're still frightened of what might happen.

Q: Yes.

K: So that's also part of fear.

Q: Yes.

K: So we're investigating fear.

Q: Yes.

K: That's all. Please, sir, do - look, we've talked about one simple thing for 20 minutes and we haven't come to the point yet.

Q: I want to open it up. I want to open up the whole subject, that’s all I can say.

K: That's all. All of us want to do this?

Q: Yes.

K: Avanti. (Laughter)

Q: There we go, well, there we go, I say. We all want it so.

K: So, are we conscious, aware, of our fears and what we do with our fears?

Tunki: I don't think we are aware.

K: Are you, Tunki?

T: No, I think it is so deep seated.

K: No, keep to what we are saying, Tunki, which is, are you aware, know, recognise, that you are frightened. And what you do with that fear. Are you aware of this? Tunki!

T: Well, I can recall my past fears.

K: No, no, Whillikins!

T: I think at the moment it doesn't jump up.

K: I'm asking, do we, each one of us, recognise our fear, know that we are frightened of something or other, and what we actually do with that fear? Do we run away from it, suppress it, control it, or accept it as part of life and drag on with it for the rest of your life? Are we aware of this? That's what I'm asking.

Q: I think we’re probably all aware of the fact we drag on.

K: Yes. Are we aware of it?

Q: Yes.

K: So you know what you do with your fear. Why do you do that? Drag on, as Professor Wilkinson points out, how we drag on with it, we go on with it. Why? We are investigating, opening up the whole box - Pandora's Box.

Q: I haven’t been able to find an answer to a particular fear, real fear.

K: No, not an answer.

Q: But this is what I’ve been doing. You said, are you aware of what you do.

K: Yes.

Q: This is what I do.

K: What you do.

Q: Try to find an answer.

K: Yes.

Q: And it hasn’t really deeply dealt with the whole matter, in the past, so it’s dragged on.

K: I'm asking, sir, if you are aware that you have a certain fear and how you deal with that fear, whether you control it, suppress it, run away from it, or wait for somebody to resolve it, and so on. Are you aware of your fear, and your reactions to that? That's all I'm asking.

S: Now then, you asked another question, why do we do that.

K: What?

S: Then you asked another question, why do we do that?

K: Yes, why do we do that. That's all I'm asking.

Q: Krishnaji, I think part of it is because we maintain a facade of ourselves that we present to others, and we want to continue to maintain this. And if we begin to face the question of fear, we will have to deal with this facade.

K: Not facade. Yes, all right. I'm just asking, Shankar, if you don't mind, apart from the facade, why do we do this - that is aware of our fear, control it, suppress it, avoid it, run away from it, or wait for some incident to resolve it. Why do we wait? Why do we go through this process? You understand my question?

Q: Couldn’t it be because we don’t know anything else?

K: What?

Q: Couldn’t it be through ignorance, because we don’t know how to deal with it otherwise?

K: No. We know what we do, don't we?

Q: Yes, sure.

K: Then let's ask the question, why do you do it?

Q: Perhaps ignorance, because we don’t know any other way.

K: You don't know any other way. Is that it?

SF: And also the entity which is afraid remains the same.

K: No, don't complicate it, sir, just go step by step: I am afraid. Suppose I am afraid. I know I have controlled it, I know I have suppressed it, I know - you know all the rest of it. And I ask myself, 'Why am I doing this?' That's all I'm asking.

Q: Somehow that fear seems to threaten something inside you.

K: What?

Q: The fear that you have inside you seems to be a threat to something, which is why...

K: A threat?

Q: A threat. It seems to threaten and challenge something.

K: So, all right. So I ask myself, why do I do this and you say, it's a threat. Threat to what? Threat to my house? Threat to my relationship? Threat to my way of living?

Q: The image.

K: Please, just go into it step by step.

Q: To my whole structure.

K: Which means, threat to my whole way of living. Is that it?

S: No, deeper I think, it's a threat to my effort to solve it. In other words, I can't go on doing this, going from solution to solution, that action will be threatened.

K: So, would you say it simply, sir.

S: Well, you said, why do I do it.

K: No, I said, why do I live in this way, being threatened - fear because that fear may bring certain catastrophes, I ask myself, why am I doing this, who is - you follow, sir? Why do I go through the cycle?

S: Because the whole thing will be threatened. In other words, keeping doing, if I stop doing this, I don't want to give that up, that structure will be threatened, the solutions will be threatened.

K: How do I know? That's my point. You're not getting my point. How do I know that my whole structure, which I've built up, will be destroyed? Or am I projecting an idea that it might be destroyed? And therefore frightened of that. You get what I'm saying?

Q: Yes.

K: Now, which is it we're doing - please, that's why we want to go step by step into this. All right, let me do it for myself, talk about it.

First, I am unaware that I'm doing this. Then I become aware. I am aware that I'm frightened. I am aware, know, that I control it, suppress it, avoid it. And I drag on this way for the rest of my life. And I am saying now, why do I do this, why do I live this way? And I find there is a threat involved in it, the threat of something that might happen. So what might happen is creating more fear, adding more to the already accumulated fear. I live this way. Right? And I say to myself, why? Why am I doing this? What am I being threatened about? You follow? We are investigating, don't accept what I'm saying, we are investigating. Threat to my relationship, with my wife, with my girl, boy, whatever it is? Threat to my existence?

Q: Yes.

K: The way of my life?

Q: Yes, that you won’t exist.

K: I don't know. You see, I don't know.

Q: You don’t know?

K: You've already projected what might happen. But I don't know. You see the difference? By projecting it, say what might happen, it might destroy my house, my relationship, I might lose my job - all that adds more fear. But it may not be like that at all. You follow? Threat implies that you have a certain standard of life and if you investigate into fear, that standard of life may be broken up. Therefore, you say, 'My god, I won't go into this problem at all'. You have made a picture of what might happen, and so you carry on as usual. Right? You understand?

So I'm asking, if you do not project the idea of what might happen, but say let's investigate fear, not the future fear. Is that clear? Am I making

Q: Yes.

K: The surgeon tells me I must be operated. And I'm frightened, because I might not survive. And so the fear of not surviving adds to my already greater fear of the operation. But if I have no fear of what might happen, I can face the operation, though I am afraid. I can face it. But now I've introduced a double kind of fear: the future, what might happen, and the actual fear of being operated. So I say, please, look, we're investigating, so I won't, I see the silliness of it, the foolishness of it, so I say, 'All right, I won't project.' I don't know, something may happen, which is quite different. So I won't project. Right? Is this clear? Can we go on from there?

Q: Yes.

K: So I ask now, why am I doing this? That is, not the future, what might happen, but why am I carrying on this way, controlling it, suppressing it, avoiding it, waiting for somebody to resolve it and so on. Why do I do this?

Q: It seems I’m holding onto something.

K: You're holding onto something. What?

Q: The idea that...

K: What are you holding onto, actually? Do look at it. You say you are holding on. What are you holding on? Your relationship? Your money? Your way of life? Your profession, your career, your - whatever, you know, a dozen things. Are you holding on to them?

Q: To all that, yes.

K: To all that. What is that, to all that? To your life?

Q: All my structure.

K: The way you are living - let's put it that way, it's simpler. The way of your life, you're holding on. And you say, 'In that way of life, fear is involved'. So you're holding onto fear! Right?

S: There is something about that, Krishnaji, that I think that it's more than just holding on to the structure, it's as if you're holding on to the fact that you don't have the capacity to deal with it.

K: Wait, wait, that's the whole point. I was coming to that. You see, is it that we think we have not the capacity to deal with the fact that I'm afraid, because I've been discouraged - listen carefully - I've been discouraged that I cannot do it by myself. I've been discouraged: by the religions, Jesus will save you, outside agency will save you, go to an analyst, professor, this, that, they will resolve it. So society, education, has helped me to have no capacity to deal with it. Right? Would you agree to this? Q: Yes.

K: Oh, come on!

Q: One could also feel that one has the capacity.

K: I don't know but I reject all that. I reject somebody is going to solve my fear, Jesus or the priest or the Pope or the Archbishop or the analyst, nobody, I can see how foolish it is.

Q: But I might think I can do it myself.

K: No, I don't say that, myself. I reject that, therefore I didn't say I will solve it, which is another vanity. I wonder if you see this. Right, sir? May we go on from there? We are all together, are we? So what have I left now? I think I have not the capacity because I have been educated to think I have not, I haven't got it. But now I am free from that educated conditioning. Right? Are you?

Q: Are you?

K: Am I?

Q: Yes.

K: Yep. (Laughter) I wouldn't talk otherwise, I wouldn't be a hypocrite. Remember sir, we said at the beginning of these discussions, that to be a light to oneself. This is part of it - I don't want to go into it now. Have we - are we free of this educated conditioning which makes us incapable? The intellectuals have made us incapable. Right? The intellectual priest, the intellectual structure of religions - you follow? - the whole intellectual world of knowledge - all that says, you can't do it, old boy, we will do it for you.

T: It seems this educated conditioning has a life of its own.

K: No, no, no, of course it has, but don't go off into that, Tunki, forgive me for bringing it back. Are you aware that you have this educated conditioning, which destroys your capacity, and therefore put it aside. Have you? Which means, you're no longer dependent. That's all I'm trying to get at.

Q: But if one were free of this intellectual conditioning, surely that in itself would not be enough?

K: No, just the beginning, that's part of it. Of course not, sir. So, look, Dr Shainberg raised the question that we, most of us, have not the capacity to deal with it.

S: I did not say we didn't have it, I said, we feel like it.

K: All right. Sorry, sorry. We feel that we have not the capacity, which is different. Quite right. So we are investigating why we don't feel capable, and we don't feel capable because of this. So are we free from that, because we can't investigate further if you are not free of that. This is rather fun, isn't it? (Laughs)

You see, this is different from analysis. I must make it quite clear. Because you are just observing this whole movement, there is no analyser and the analysed. I don't want to enter into that for the moment. We are just observing. We have been educated by all the priests, intellectual theologians, philosophers and so on, that we don't feel at the end of it capable. If you reject all that, what has happened?

Q: You become...

K: Go into it, sir. Watch yourself. If you reject it, the intellectual education, quotes, what has happened? First, why have you rejected it? Under my pressure? Because of logic, see the sequence of it? Or you yourself see that you cannot possibly understand fear if you have not the capacity, and that capacity has been taken away from you, taken away from you by others. Now, if you realise that, what have you come to? Please go into it.

Q: Through the insight of this?

K: Which means what?

Q: It means you’re no longer dependent on someone else.

K: No, no, do listen, go into it for yourself. We're exploring, please!

Q: You are free then to learn, you are free to learn, you are free.

K: You are free of what?

Q: This conditioning.

K: Which means what? Free. How did you get that freedom? Let's - all right. How did you get that freedom, how did you have that feeling of being free?

Q: By doubting.

K: By doubt, by questioning, which means what?

Q: (Inaudible) denying authority.

K: At the end, when you have rejected through doubt, questioning, seeing what its value is and so on, which is you have intelligence, haven't you now? Right? No?

Q: Yes.

K: Come on, sir!

Q: Yes. Your own intelligence.

K: Not your own. You have intelligence.

Q: Yes.

K: Which is capacity. I wonder if you see this. We've a lot to go, come on, sir! A long way to go yet!

S: It was a quality there that did happen. You actually used the word 'happen'. I think that's exactly it, that you become a happening.

K: Yes, there is a movement, a happening, which is intelligence, not, that intelligence is yours or mine, it's intelligence.

Q: Which is not a function of the brain?

K: You have used the brain to see. The brain sees what people have done to it. Right? The intellectuals, the priests, the authoritarians, the philosophers, the Freudians, Freud, and all the rest of it, they have made you dull. And if you say, I see the whole thing, what they have done, and the very seeing is the movement of intelligence, it's not your seeing or my seeing, the fact that it is so. I wonder if you

Q: Sir, what they have actually done, religions, when you say they have made you die, I see that...

Q: Dull.

Q: Did you say die or dull?

K: I don't know what I said. (Laughter)

Q: Dull.

Q: I see that they have stopped you, the religions, I feel that they have stopped me from enquiring.

K: Sir, I don't know if you know in India you can be a religious person without believing, without having any god. You understand, sir? And therefore they have questioned the whole, they have doubted, questioned. In Christianity you mustn't question. You can question up to a certain point, after that, it is mysterious, mystery. So you never are encouraged to question, ask, demand, find out. Right? That's all we're saying.

Now are we in this together, now, so far? No, have you that intelligence? If you haven't you can't enquire.

Mary Zimbalist: But sir, one of the main things in fear, it seems to me, is a sense of self-doubt, a helplessness whereas to have the insight you are talking about, doesn't one already have to come to some grips with the fear, because fear is an inundating thing. When you have the power of that perception...

K: No, we said at the beginning, are you aware that you are afraid, do you know what your action to that is - control, suppress, run away, resolve - we went through all that. So if you say, mustn't you have a grip on that first, I say, 'Look, you're asking a question that has been dealt with'.

MZ: Well, I'm trying to suggest that the experience of fear is so tremendous.

K: We are

MZ: To have that intelligence at that moment is...

K: No, not at that moment.

MZ: No, but in examining. When you are fearful and you examine it, to come to that perception is extremely difficult.

K: Maria, I mean Mrs Zimbalist, we are not dealing with that. Look: I've reached a point in a discussion, for each one of us, we've reached a point where our capacities which have been made dull, by rejecting those factors which make us incapable, the very rejection of it is the awakening of this intelligence. Then that's one thing. Wait, wait. We haven't finished with fear yet. That's one thing. So I'm saying, the next step is, I don't know if you - I'm talking all the time, will you please come on. All right, since

Q: Sir, I question whether one has totally rejected all that.

K: That's up to you. Haven't you?

Q: Then can we know if we have.

K: Find out, sir. Sit for two minutes you can, a minute you can know, if you put your mind to it. If you're sloppy you won't know.

Q: I still have the feeling that it will be a verbal game.

K: Ah, it's not a verbal game with me. You can have the verbal game, but I want - sir, I said from the beginning, are we serious enough, intent, having strong intent to go into this whole movement of fear. If you have the intent and the seriousness of it, you cannot remain verbal.

JK: Sir, it seems at this point the fear is still there. Now fear hasn't been dealt with. All you've done is put aside incapacity and the intelligence has been awakened. Once that's awakened then it can start dealing with fear. The fear is still there.

K: Of course. Sir, I'm going to deal with - we're going to go into it.

Q: Can I raise another point?

K: Yes, sir.

Q: Having got these, cleared the space, so to speak...

K: (Laughs) Cleared the decks.

Q: the intelligence, I mean, to do that didn’t one need some kind of motivation, driving force, some sort of passion? And doesn’t one then need that to continue the process? I mean, or are you including that in the intelligence?

K: I think that's right, sir. This passion, the drive is inherent in this intelligence.

Q: It has its own momentum.

K: It has, yes sir, put it - no, let's use the same words, otherwise you'll give a different meaning to momentum and so on. I may too. So as Professor Wilkinson points out, doesn't one need passion, interest, a drive, to have this, to bring about this intelligence, or to awaken this intelligence. I say, by observing, by looking into this whole movement of fear, as we've just begun - said, that intelligence has in it this passion, this intent, the drive. I won't sit still any more. If I have fear, I'll go, with that intelligence, with that energy, with that drive, I'm going into it.

Q: Could I return to your point about the man having the operation?

K: Yes, sir.

Q: Then surely he decides to have the operation and run the risks of what might happen afterwards, if he’s sufficiently dissatisfied with his half-life before the operation.

K: Quite right, sir, that's what...

Q: Is this it?

K: You're quite right, sir. Are we dissatisfied enough now, as he points out, with our ordinary, mediocre, dull life, part of which is fear? So am I aflame to resolve this thing? Which immediately makes me non-mediocre - not that it gives me vanity. I'm out of that group.

S: I think that's important. Yes, I think there's a real fear of getting out of the groove, because it puts you into a whole new space.

K: That's what the Professor was pointing out. Unless there is this feeling - look: I've lived with fear for so many blasted years, wasted my life, and I must do something about it, which immediately puts me out of society. And I don't mind. (Laughter) But if I say I like the pleasant the niceties of society, dinner parties and night clubs and all the blah, blah, blah, then of course there is no communication.

S: And relationship. Perhaps we'll come back to relationship. I'd like, I know that relationship...

K: That's why, I'm coming a little slowly. So what shall we do now? I have now - there is this intelligence operating, which is capacity. And I have started out with the discontent to live, to be, to understand this whole fear - you know, work at it. I've come to the point, I'm afraid. Right? I have fear. Are we aware sir, come!

Q: Yes.

K: I have fear. Fear of what? What are you afraid of? Are you?

Q: The future?

K: I'm sorry, I'm asking her. You're a teacher, Shakuntala. She won't answer, you see. None of us want to be put on the carpet. Right, sir? You can put me on the carpet, I'm quite willing. I'm asking, what is it you are afraid of. Afraid of loneliness, afraid of not having communication with another? The other is the only person with whom I can communicate and with nobody else, therefore I'm afraid. And therefore I get attached? So, go on, please! What am I afraid of, each one of us? My wife, losing my job, having no status in society, nobody recognising me as a great man? Afraid of death, afraid of darkness, afraid that I might physically get hurt? Go on, sir, please, what is it you're afraid of?

Q: Practically all those things. All those things.

K: Are you afraid of all these?

Q: Practically, yes.

Q: Getting hurt. Yes.

K: Jesus! I mean (Laughter)

Q: In one form or another, yes.

Q: I’m afraid of being asleep my whole life, you know, just letting everything drop by and...

K: Wait, wait. She said, 'I'm afraid of all these things'. What does that mean?

Q: Afraid of life.

K: No, no. What does that mean? That I'm afraid of that, I'm afraid of that, I'm afraid of that, so you have separate fears. Right? Or fear has different expressions.

Q: But it seems to enter into practically everything.

K: Yes - no, you're...

Q: I’d say we’re afraid of fear itself.

K: No, madame, no. I'm asking something. She said, I enumerated various forms of fear. I can add more to it, or take away, it doesn't matter, innumerable, pointed out many forms of fear. Do you want to get rid of those various expressions of fear, or the fear that creates? You follow? Desire creates many objects of desire. I want a house, I want to be famous, I want to be known, I want to have money. But it's still desire. So, though fear has many expressions, the common denominator, factor is fear. So we are dealing with not the objects of fear - I am afraid of the door, I'm afraid of light, I'm afraid of my wife - but fear itself. Do we see this?

Q: Yes.

K: Fear, I am ill, fear, I may never get well, I am crippled, my arm is frozen, and my god, I can't move it - I'm afraid. You follow sir? Fear. Are we aware - you know, this is an important question, please, which is, am I aware of the objects of fear, or fear itself? I may be afraid of death, and so I'm greatly concerned about death, and therefore I enquire into death, go into it, and all the rest of it, and I forget fear, I've pushed it away by saying, I'm going to enquire into death. Or I might want a very good career, job, position, and I am intent on that, and therefore my fear is abated, because I've concentrated on it. So we are discussing, talking over together fear itself, not the various forms of fear. Right sir? Can we move from there?

Q: Don’t these fears indicate that one is actually afraid to be left alone?

K: Yes, sir, loneliness. Loneliness, isolation, building a wall round oneself, being hurt from childhood, build a wall round yourself and fear, never to meet anybody who might hurt.

S: There's also the fear in there of building the wall, not just the isolation, secondary to building the wall, is the fear that you will build.

K: Of course, of course. You build a wall and then feel isolated and say, 'My god, why am I isolated?'

Q: But there, as I say, there is a deeper fear.

K: Yes, yes, of course. So are we all, can we move together in this, know that fear we are concerned with, not with fear of darkness, fear of death, fear of this, fear of that.

Q: I’m not clear on this, that I am afraid of fear. I live in a state of fear but I’m lost on this thing about being afraid of fear.

K: No, I don't say, afraid of fear. I only know fear; that is, later on I say the word and so on, the complications of it, just the fact that I'm frightened.

S: Could we take a look at the process by which a single fear arises, by which, you know, fear comes into being? And take a look at it from that point of view.

K: Take it, take it, sir, go into it, take one fact, if you're afraid of something, take that and go into it, one fact. What would you like? Loneliness? No, take sir I can

Q: Fine.

K: So I am afraid of being alone - not alone, this feeling of loneliness, which is isolation. Right? I'm frightened of being isolated. You want to take that?

SF: Could we start just before that though? I'm sitting down, walking around and I'm not afraid. And then suddenly this fear arises.

K: Arises.

Q: Can we look at that?

K: I'm doing that. We'll see how it comes and then we'll see how the before and the after - I'm talking all the time. I am lonely. I try to do all kinds of things to escape from it. Right? I'm attached, I need somebody to have a conversation with - you follow? - comfort and so on, I escape from it. That's a fact, isn't it? Come on, sirs! Sir, how am I to talk to an audience if you all keep quiet? (Laughs)

Q: Sometimes we all agree with you (inaudible)

K: Ah, then (laughs). Right, if you all agree, if you all see the point, if you are all aware of this, loneliness, and running away from it, trying to cover it up, trying to fill it through various forms of entertainment, religious, football or this or that. So that's what we do. Now I'm asking myself: what has brought this loneliness about? Right? What are the reasons for it? Can we go on? What are the reasons? It may be...

Q: Probably I need to be comforted. I probably need comfort through contact with somebody. I probably need comfort through contact with somebody.

K: No, I know, I am in contact with you, you are my friend, I have a conversation with you, I'm escaping from this fact that I'm lonely. So I escape through contacts, through entertainment, through this and through that. Am I aware of this movement away from this thing which I have called loneliness? Right?

Now I want to find out why this loneliness has come into being, how is it that I'm lonely? Right? So I question. Is it my way of life? Right? That is, the way of life, I am acting for myself all the time. In my most intimate relationships, or business, whatever it is, I'm always acting from a centre. Right? Could we go on with this? So what happens? I'm all the time emphasising by my action, by my thoughts, this void in me, this emptiness, this sense of loneliness. No? Do we all see this or not? Silence indicates agreement or disagreement?

Look, sir: I go to the office. There I am battling with my superior, and I want his job, more money and so on. I'm acting there, emphasising myself, me first, and all that. I come home and there's my wife and I go though exactly the same process there. Right? So I'm building, through my actions I'm bringing about this sense of loneliness.

Q: It is isolating itself.

K: It's isolating itself all the time. And suddenly, walking in the woods or sitting in my room or whatever one is doing, suddenly one feels tremendously lonely, isolated, having no relationship with anything. Don't you know all this? Or am I inventing all this?

So I have done everything to avoid it. Right sir? And I want to find out how it arose, and I see how it has come about, how through my daily actions I've isolated myself - right? - which is my loneliness. And I suddenly become aware of it. And so instead of running away from it, I say, all right, old boy, let's see what it is about. You follow? What is the state of the mind that is lonely? Of course, lonely in the sense your body is separate from mine and so on, that we're not talking about - the sense of psychological loneliness in which there is no contact with anybody. Sense of tremendous isolation. And if you don't resolve it, and you know you can't escape from it, then you become neurotic. Because that is the only thing you have left. Before, you escaped, before, you did all kinds of tricks with it, now you realise that you can't do anything - those are all vain. So you're stuck with it. And if you don't resolve it you become every kind of neurotic human being. No? This is a verbal description, don't be deceived by the description, this is a fact.

So what shall I do with this loneliness? You've understood my question? What shall I do with the loneliness: the 'I' who has created the loneliness, the isolation, says, 'What shall I do?' I wonder if you see this? Please.

Q: Yes.

Q: Yes.

K: Thank god, somebody sees it.

S: That's the act of trying to solve - again you're back in the solution.

K: Of course. But I've put the wrong question, that's what I want to I've put a wrong question to myself when I say, 'What shall I do?', or 'Tell me what to do', I'm still isolating myself. So the next question is, is that loneliness separate from me? You follow, sir? Or I am that?

T: Who is the self?

K: Tunki, have you listened to what I have to say? We have reached a certain point, Tunki, which is, I used to escape from this loneliness, I see the absurdity of it, and so I won't escape. But there is this loneliness, this isolation. So I'm still trying to do something about it. So I must find a solution, I must operate, I'm doing something - but is that loneliness different from the actor who says, I must do something about it. Or the actor himself is that. I wonder if you see this.

Q: Yes.

S: Isn't that fear, right at that second?

K: No, no. I have no fear yet. I'm coming to that. Mr Scott asked me, take one example, say, loneliness, and go into it. That's what we're doing, which is, I have done everything about it - run away, rationalised it, all the rest of it. And when I reject that, then I still say, 'What am I to do?' We're pointing out it is a wrong question because you are still operating as though that loneliness, isolation, is different from the actor, the doer. The doer is that.

Q: He’s sustained it artificially.

K: Yes, so the observer is the observed. This is difficult for most of us to get. I'm sorry, I must keep at it.

SF: Now, when we..

K: Scott, have you got this?

SF: I think so.

K: You don't think so? Is it so?

Q: I can see the actor has created that. I see that the actor has created that.

K: Yes, the actor has created that and the actor is that, because he has created it.

S: That seems particularly difficult.

K: Of course, because our conditioning is to keep the two separate. Our conditioning is to act upon it.

Q: Krishnaji, isn’t that the problem, that the actor creates the symptom. And then immediately the actor continues to create a reaction

K: That's right sir, that's right.

Q: So one is continually trapped.

K: That's right. But when you see the actor is the action, you have quite a different - your mind is quite different when you see that.

Q: But may I ask, in a sense, a degree, how different, one sees that and yet one feels, in one’s awareness there is an extraordinary habituated...

K: That's our conditioning. So I say, look, what am I doing. I have been caught in a tradition, educated and so on, so on, to separate the actor from the action.

S: I don't think that's it. I don't think that's it at all. I think something else happens, something else. It's like trying to switch something, it's not the conditioning, it's something else.

K: All right, sir. What is it? Now let's find out. You say it's not the conditioning, all right, we'll put it aside for the moment. I don't reject it - put it aside. I say, 'Is that so?' I say, 'Why is there this division?' Right? Right sir? Before I've acted upon it, run away from it, suppressed it, controlled it and so on, and so on. I must have a conversation with you only, and with nobody else, and therefore I get attached to you, and this attachment has made me more and more isolated. And then I say, I'm isolated, lonely. And I say I must do something about it. Or tell me what to do about it. Which means I'm still maintaining the division. Right sir? Now is that a fact, is the division a fact? But is that not an illusion? Though we accept it as a fact, is that not an illusion? Go slow. Right, sir?

Q: You mean, this division is an illusion?

K: What, sir?

Q: You mean, what is an illusion?

K: The illusion is...

Q: ...the division.

K: Yes.

SF: Krishnaji, I can see that that's an illusion, and I can, without meaning to be presumptuous, I can see that I am that loneliness, and that there is not a division.

K: So what happens? How did you come to - no, be careful Scott - how did you come to that?

S: Why talk about it if he really saw. Well, I don't think he would talk about it if he really saw it.

K: I know, but I'm asking something else. I'm asking, how did he come to it?

S: I don't think he came to it, that's the point.

SF: Well

K: All right, all right, put it differently.

SF: I can see, I'll tell you now, I can tell you how I came to it. In listening to what you said and in seeing the entity that was, that felt that loneliness, that was the same, that was the loneliness came from the same source that felt it. So I could see in my way, what I thought was that I was the loneliness.

K: Yes, sir.

SF: But that doesn't give me any insight yet into...

K: I know. That's the whole point. Which he is pointing out, which Dr Shainberg is pointing out.

Q: Krishnaji, the sensation is that one has jumped and then you know you have jumped. But you don’t know how you’ve jumped, yet.

K: All right, all right. If that is so, that is, have you jumped? It doesn't matter how. Have you jumped to this fact that the division between the actor and the loneliness, the actor says, 'I must do something about it', therefore he's still in the same area of loneliness. If you see that, then there is no division.

Q: Could I pause there for a moment, because you say we are going very slowly.

K: I am.

Q: I see the symptom, the expression, the jump that has occurred. That’s different.

K: No.

Q: From what you’re saying.

K: I understand, sir. I'm asking, when you have jumped there is no conflict about loneliness?

Q: Otherwise you wouldn’t jump.

K: Wait, wait, wait. He and I are talking for the moment. Forgive me, sir. He says he has jumped to that. And it may be still an illusion, so I'm asking respectfully - when the observer is the observed, there is no conflict. When the observer who sees he is lonely and the observer says, 'I am that', then there is no conflict. Right sir? Is that a fact to you, no conflict about loneliness?

Q: It’s not a fact for me.

K: And therefore that jump is not what we're talking about.

Q: I was just going to say, I think we are not so with communication. You see, if I sense that I am lonely, and in my investigation I see the fact that I am lonely because of the existence of an ‘I’...

K: No, existence of various actions in daily life, which has brought about this loneliness.

Q: Yes. The continual operation of the ‘I’.

K: Yes sir.

Q: What I am saying when I use the word ‘jump’ is the fact that I have become aware...

K: That's all.

Q: (Inaudible) of the operation.

K: That's a different jump.

Q: Exactly. That’s what you asked.

K: Quite, quite. So I'm asking something else, which is, do I realise the illusion I've been living in, where I have separated loneliness from me, and therefore 'me' can act upon 'it'. Right? Do I see that?

Q: I’m sorry, could you clarify, Krishnaji – you just said that ‘me’ can act upon...

K: Yes, sir. Look: I am lonely. Let's follow slowly, step by step. I'm lonely. Realising the terror of it, the feeling of complete lack of relationship with anything, I'm afraid of it. So I run away from it. I suppress it, control it, all kinds of things I do. And the loneliness still remains. Because then I ask myself, 'What shall I do about this?' Right, sir? I read books, I read, etc., etc., which means what? I am still in the same relationship as I was before, with regard to loneliness.

Q: Yes.

K: Loneliness hasn't been resolved. I'm still in the same position as I was before when I went round escaping from it. And I'm still in the same position when I ask the question, 'What shall I do about it?'

Q: Yes.

K: Which means I don't see that loneliness is the action of my thinking which has brought about this division, because I thought I must be a great man, I must do this. You follow, sir?

Q: If I might just continue on that point, Krishnaji, just at that point. You see, the stumbling block, I found, the stumbling block is, that from the moment of being aware of the symptom and then, as you suggested rightly, the ‘I’ says, ‘How can I deal with this?’ My point is, the question which is organic and totally asked, which the ‘I’ is asking, has an electrifying speed, it is born so fast that you can’t get hold of it.

K: Of course, of course, because it is part of our illusion. So, you see, sir - no, please, sir, just listen. Have you seen that you are escaping from loneliness?

Q: Yes.

K: Wait. Which means you are acting upon loneliness. All right. And you see you can't escape from loneliness. Wait, wait. Next, you say now I'll not escape.

Q: No. Sorry, may I correct that. I’m not saying I can’t escape.

K: Ah, well, then we're lost. Then we're gone.

Q: What I’m saying is my escape, continued escape from loneliness (inaudible)

K: Then we have to investigate why the mind will not face the fact.

Q: Yes.

Q: Yes. That’s it.

K: Will not face the fact that I am silly. Now wait a minute, go slowly. Is that fact that I'm silly the result of comparison? Take, slowly, I'm going slowly into it. You are bright, you are intelligent, you are this and that, and in comparing myself with you, I say, 'My god, how silly I am'. Wait, that's one factor, sir. One factor. I'll go into it - piano, piano. Non troppo allegro. What is the other factor?

Q: Isn’t it part of the incapacity we were talking about earlier?

K: Incapacity. What is the question we are asking?

Q: Why we can’t see the fact, why we can’t.

K: Yes, why can't we face the fact - fact, not what I think about the fact. Right sir? But the fact.

Q: Why don’t we accept being lost.

K: Wait. I'm investigating, sir. The fact. Look, I say the fact is I am silly. Is that fact the result of comparison? Obviously.

Q: Yes.

K: Wait, wait, no, don't agree so quickly. If it is the result of comparison, if I don't compare, am I silly? You follow, sir? If I have no comparison at all, what am I then? I don't know.

Q: Exactly.

K: Wait, wait. Which means what? I am incapable of facing the fact because you have pointed out to me that you must be intelligent to face the fact. Intelligent, without fear, or whatever word you like to use. To face a fact I mustn't run away from it, obviously. But my whole education has been to run away from it. Why can't I face the fact? Because of education? Or I have lived all my life comparing myself with somebody else. I'm going slowly. Is it I cannot face the fact because I have not the capacity for it? Ask yourself, sir. I have the capacity now, you follow? I've understood what capacity is. Is it I cannot face the fact because I don't know how to look. Right? I'm going Slowly, slowly (laughs). I'm exploring, sir. Is it a fact I can't face the fact because I don't know how to look at it?

S: Now you've already looked at the fact that you are isolating yourself.

K: That's all.

S: You've already seen that. Now how come you can't see that fact? You've already got that. What happens?

K: You see - I'll tell you how I do it. Not through the observation of escapes, controls, and all that, I say, loneliness, isolation, because of that - my daily life. So my daily life changes completely.

S: Yes, but that's the jump that we you get that, that's not true, you didn't have that! You said, what am I going to do about loneliness. Yes. You yourself skipped that!

Q: That’s the wrong question.

K: No, sir. I myself expressed the question of others. (Laughter) No, don't brush it aside, don't brush it aside. I am not lonely. I won't go through that. Cut me out as a person.

S: OK, forget you. Let's go back. Now we have seen the isolation, then we go to - I'm going to do something about that isolation, I'm going to go to the movies. (Laughter)

K: No. You go to the movies, but when you come back home, it's still there. So can you face the fact? That's what we're discussing. Which means, can you face the fact without running away, looking at it correctly, without any deviation, which means, can you look at it without any motive, which is deviation and so on. Can you look at a fact? Can any of us look at a fact that one is violent? Take that fact. Fact, that one is violent. Can you face it? Sexually, competitive, doesn't matter, you know, violent.

Q: But do I have to compare to see that I am violent?

K: What?

Q: Do I have to compare to see that I am violent?

K: No, I went to comparison through another matter. I'm violent. You know what violence is, getting angry.

Q: How do I know what violence is unless I have a comparison?

K: No, sir, getting angry is violent, trying to be something when you are not, is violence.

Stephen Smith: You see, we're used to working through comparison, that's part of the difficulty. Part of the difficulty is working through comparing what I can see of violence with what I see outside as violence. And so we work in the world of ideas. That's one of the chief difficulties.

K: Look, sir, Mr Smith, I'm asking, can you look at a fact. That's all we're concerned with for the moment. Can I look at the fact of my loneliness, not running away from it, not trying to find an answer for it, or trying to have a motive to say, 'Look, what am I to do with it?' Can you just look at a fact and keep looking at it?

Q: The point is that most people find this very difficult.

K: That's right, sir. Most people find it most difficult to look at a fact; look at the fact that you're jealous, look at the fact that you're violent, look at the fact that you are ugly, both facially or inwardly, or you may be most beautiful and look at the fact, in the mirror. To look in the mirror and not compare yourself with somebody else who is more or less. So what happens? Can you look at that loneliness, without any deviation, without any motive, just look? Now which is most difficult. You follow, sir? Because observation is the movement of thought, which is deviation. I wonder if you see.

Q: Yes.

K: I'm just discovering what I said.

Q: Well, this, Krishnaji, is again the problem, the observation of thought.

K: No, I don't want to enter into that for the moment. Just a minute, sir, purposely, because it's complicated enough.

Q: So it’s always dualistic.

K: Yes, sir. Look, can I observe my loneliness. And hear all the noise, the emptiness, the silence, the inwardness of it - observing means also listening. Can I do that? It might tell me, it might tell its content, you follow? If I know how to look, if I know how to listen to the thing that I've called loneliness. It may be the most extraordinary factor involved in it. But if I run away, escape, and all that, it's not telling its story to me, it's not revealing its story.

Well, sir. So you find it awfully difficult to face a fact, face the fact that I've told a lie. And not say well, I told a lie because of this, protecting somebody, you frightened me. You follow? But the fact that I've told a lie. See how extraordinarily difficult, sir, isn't it? Why? Answer me, sir. Why? Why is it so difficult for most of us to face a fact?

Q: It’s only difficult when it refers to one’s self.

K: Yes, sir.

Q: If it doesn’t refer to oneself it’s easy enough.

K: That's right, sir. I am lame. I won't accept the fact. I met a man once - he had no hand, right hand. So he put out his stump, he said, 'Don't be frightened, I've no hand'. You follow, sir? He faced the fact that he has no hand, and said, 'I don't mind, shake my stump'. He said that!

Q: I think it was rather inconsiderate of him. (Laughter)

K: (Laughs) Can I face the fact that I am absolutely nothing. That's the ultimate You follow, sir? This is really, you can't...

Q: That’s the key point. The key point.

K: Yes. Can you face that fact that you're absolutely nothing? You know that is really...

Q: All the problems are solved.

K: What, sir?

Q: There is no more problem.

K: No, no, oh, there is. No problem, but there is something much more when you come to that point. Point not verbally but actual fact - the fact that you're nothing. You've clothes you've got ideas, you've got beliefs, you've got experience, all those are words, words, words.

Q: What makes it difficult is that you are always comparing.

K: No, sir. I'm asking, just say, I can't do it. That's simple. I cannot face the fact that I'm absolutely nothing.

Q: I’ve not discovered yet what you mean by nothing.

Q: Yes.

K: Oh, no (laughs), I can tell you. All the structure that you have built about yourself, a speaker, tremendous knowledge, a violinist, pianist, all these are what - what are they?

Q: You mean not nothing but a miserable human being.

K: Yes, sir (laughs). The professor says you may be nothing but you're a miserable human being. No, you don't, you see, that's what I'm we never face a fact. That I'm, as he points out, I'm a miserable human being. My quarrels are petty, my relationship with my wife is so tawdry - misery, confusion, I never face it.

In India they've got a marvellous solution for this - karma, past life. The whole Asiatic world is soaked in this ignorance. In the past life I did something which was wrong, therefore I'm paying for it now. Or, I'm living in a good palace because I did very well last life.

So, why is it so intolerable to face a fact? If you tell me that I'm really an ignorant fool, actually you know, you tell me that, and I say, all right, let me look. I am not frightened, I want to find out if I am an ignorant fool, or it's your reaction which makes you say that to me. I want to find out. Which means - you follow, sir? - I've got intensity as passion, as he pointed out, because I'm not satisfied with things as they are, in myself.

So now, can I face the fact that I'm frightened, and not do a thing about it, just face it. Can I? Can you? If you face the fact, then a whole series of enquiries begin, real enquiries, not intellectual, verbal enquiries. That is, I'm facing the fact that I told a lie last year and I'm frightened that you might discover that lie, because I've got a reputation to keep up, that I never lie. But I have told a lie and I don't want you to discover it. Can I face that fact without any sense of guilt - right? - without any sense of saying, it was right, I should have lied because of this, that and the other? Just to know, look at it. See that gives you tremendous vitality. I don't know Has, if I may ask, has it given you that vitality, that sense of drive, with its passion? Say, I've faced the fact, it's finished. I may lie but that's over, you can tell everybody about it, if you want to. You follow, sir? I'm out of it.

I think we better stop. Tomorrow is a holiday, for everybody. For me too because I have to go to the dentist. So we meet on Saturday. Shall we go on with this fear question?

Q: Yes.

K: Right.