Conflict, duality and observation
Living without measurement is part of meditation
2nd Public Talk New Delhi
October 31, 1982
May we continue with what we were talking yesterday evening? Communication with each other, to commune, to communicate something to another, unless they are really willing to listen, however friendly, however good-intentioned, unless one is able to listen to another, communication becomes rather limited, misunderstood, and apt to be misguiding. So we are going to talk over together this evening many things. And one has to use words to communicate. Of course, unless we are extraordinarily telepathic and be understood without words, you can communicate. I am afraid that is not possible. But words are necessary. Each one uses words rather casually, without much intonation, quality behind that word. And one doesn't listen to another actually. If you do listen, there is always a defence, there is always a resistance to anything that is said, something new and perhaps over which you have not thought. So there is immediate reaction is to resist or not listen because it might be disturbing. So there is an art of listening. That is, to listen to what is being said, not interpret what is being said to your own convenience, to your own traditional language. But if you understand English - I hope some of you do - then to listen to the word, the meaning of that word, to see if we understand each other. And to listen one has to have not only certain quality of attention but also a sense of affection, a sense of trying to understand what the other fellow is saying. A communication is possible at depth as well as superficially when both of us are concerned about the same subject or the same ideas with the same concern about a certain thing, then we are both in communication with each other. But if you resist, as perhaps you are going to resist a great deal with what the speaker is going to say, then communication is not possible. And as you are all good enough to come to the talk, I don't know why, but you are here
So one has to learn the art of listening. When you listen to a music which you like, there is no resistance. You go with it, you shake your head, you clap your hand, you do all kinds of things to express your appreciation, your understanding, your understanding of the quality of the music and so on. There, there is no, any form of defence, any form of resistance. You are going with it, flowing with it. So please, in the same way, kindly listen, not to be instructed, not to be told what to do, but to understand what is being said, not the person who is saying it, but what is being said. If you are merely concerned with the person, that is, with the speaker and not with what is being said then you are not in communication with him. So forget the person altogether. He is just a telephone. You understand? So that you are actually listening to what is being said and discover for yourself, if you are resisting, and why you are resisting. One resists or defends, there is a defence, because you don't want to be disturbed or you are not accepting anything new. You don't want anything new or you don't really care what is being said
So, please, as we are going to talk over together like two friends, please listen very carefully, learn the art of listening, not to the speaker only, to your wife, to your husband, to your children, to the birds, to the wind, to the breeze, so that you become extraordinarily sensitive in listening. And when you listen you capture quickly, you don't have to have lot of explanations and analysis and descriptions, you are flowing with it. So please, as we are talking together as two friends sitting in a park or in a wood, quiet, birds are singing, plenty of dappled light coming through the leaves on the floor and there is a sense of appreciation of beauty. And when you so listen, the miracle takes place, when you listen. It is like sowing a seed. And if the seed is vital, strong, healthy, and the ground is properly prepared, it inevitably grows. So, if one may point out, one has to learn the art of listening. And if you listen very, very carefully, you capture it so quickly, the meaning of what the other is saying. Perhaps many of you have listened to the speaker for a number of years, unfortunately. And you get used to it. You get used to his language, his gesture, how he looks and so on and you gradually slip off. And you say, why haven't I, after years of listening to this man, have not changed? Because they have actually not listened with their at their depth, with their hearts, with their minds, with their whole energy. So, don't blame the speaker, but rather learn, if one may suggest most respectfully, the way of listening. There is great beauty in listening to a bird, to a wind among the leaves and to a word that is spoken with depth, with meaning, with passion
We were saying yesterday that the future of man is at stake, and the future man has no existence in isolation, isolation as a nation, isolation as a group, isolation in religion, isolation as an individual and isolation in consciousness. For most of us thinking is individual. What I think, what you think. There, there is a difference, a division. Your opinion against my opinion, my thought against your thought or your husband's thought, your wife's thought. So thinking is not individual. Thinking is the ordinary factor of the poorest, ignorant man and the greatest Nobel prize winner, scientist. They both think. But we have the idea that your thinking is yours. But whereas thinking is the nature of man. Clear, this point? So when you think, it is not your individual thinking, it is the capacity of the brain to be active and respond in words, in thought. This is the nature of man. But we have reduced it as my thinking opposed to your thinking, or you agree with my thinking or I agree with your thinking. This must be made very clear in these talks
We are thinking together. It is not your thinking and you accept my thinking. We are thinking together which is very difficult, because for most of us we have got strong opinions, bias, conclusions. We have experienced so much and so we think it is our experience, our conclusion. So when a new outlook is put before you, you refuse to look at it. So thinking is the nature of man. It is not your thinking or my thinking. This must be seen very clearly. You observe when you talk to a poor, illiterate, ignorant man, he is also thinking according to his knowledge, his perception, his activity, as the scientist, greatest scientist. He thinks according to his experience, to his knowledge and discovers something new and so on. This is general factor of all human beings that thinking is not yours or mine, it is thinking. Can we go on from there? We understand each other? At least even intellectually, even verbally
And when you observe what is going on in the world outside of you, each country is isolating itself, each group is isolating, the Muslim, the Hindu, the Buddhist, the Tibetan, the Russian, the American and so on, Chinese. I don't have to enumerate all the names. This is what is happening. Each group is isolating. One follows one particular guru, another, another guru and so on. This factor of isolation is destroying the world, is separating humanity. This is an actual fact that is taking place in the world. Then inwardly each of us thinks we are separate. Tradition, religion, all that has conditioned our thinking that we are separate human beings - of course we are separate in the sense you are a man, you are a woman, I am a man or I am a woman, you are a man, tall, short, light, black and so on. But we are talking at a depth. That is human consciousness is general, is shared by all human beings. All human beings suffer, go through great agonies, shed tears, have the sense of loneliness, pain, anxiety, depression, uncertainty. The poorest and the most sophisticated, erudite human being, all have this general factor. They all share this. This is so. So our consciousness is not yours or mine. It is the consciousness of all human beings. This is very difficult for most people to see this and see the reality of it, because we have been so conditioned. In Christianity that you are a separate soul. Here, you are a separate you are Atman, you reincarnate over and over again till you reach god knows what. It is still the emphasis that you are a separate individual. Is that so? We are questioning it. Therefore, you have to find out, question, doubt, ask, which means you are listening without any defence, without any resistance to this truth. We are using the word correctly, it is the truth. You may at the periphery, on the outside have certain mannerism, certain habits, certain tendencies, capacities but if you move from the outer to the inner, we all share the same common issues. So unless we realise this, not verbally, not intellectually but in our heart, in our minds, in our blood, we are going to destroy each other, which is going on. So are we capable of listening to this fact, not your opinions about the fact but the actual fact that our consciousness which is the content, our consciousness is made up of its content. Isn't it? Are you all puzzled? Are we all thinking together? Or we are off to somewhere else
Look, great many books have been written about consciousness. There are specialists about consciousness, conferences about consciousness all over the world. And scholars, experts who have studied not themselves but other poor victims, they have met and discuss. But we are not professionals. At least I am not. But one has inquired into the nature of one's own consciousness, observed the content of it, because without the content there is no consciousness. Right? Are you following all this? Are we moving together? Consciousness is made up of one's beliefs, one's tendencies, one's secret desires, anxieties, beliefs, loneliness, and so on. That is the content which makes up consciousness. Without the content, there is no consciousness as we know it. If you observe your own consciousness, that is what you are. Your consciousness is what you are: your fears, your desires, your pleasures, your loneliness, depression, anxiety and all that, that is what you are, what you believe. You believe that you are god, you are that and so on
So the content makes consciousness and that consciousness is conditioned. And since it is conditioned, it must be in conflict. Aren't you all in conflict of some kind or another, conflict being dissension between two people, conflict with oneself, what is and what should be. That is a conflict. A man who is violent, as all human beings apparently are violent. The content of our consciousness is part of that violence. And conflict arises when there is a duality. That is I am violent, I should not be violent. Or I have the ideal of non-violence which this country loves. The idea of non-violence or practising non- violence but the fact is you are violent. That is a fact. The other is not a fact
I wonder if you see this. We must go into this very carefully, because we are trying to understand why human beings live perpetually in conflict, why there is a contradiction: I am, I should be. I am violent, I must become non-violent. And the non-violent is an idea, is a concept, is not an actuality, because I am violent. Do you see this actuality? This is the fact. The other is non-fact. But we have created or we think the pursuit of non-violence will help us to become non-violent. We will be free from violence. That is - this is rather important, go into it, I will go into it slowly. I am violent. Human beings are violent. I am violent. Let us understand the content of that word. What does violence mean? There is physical violence - right? You with a gun shoot me, or you hit me, or you throw a bomb at me, you slap me, you injure me. That is a physical violence. What is psychological violence - the inward anger, hatred, wanting to dominate people. Right? - not only physical domination, but the domination of ideas: I know, you don't know, I will tell you and you will obey. That is domination. I wonder if you follow all this. The gurus are violent, because they are dominating people with their ideas, with their system of meditation and all that business. Please understand this, we are not attacking gurus. They can jump in the lake or swim, whatever they want. But I am just pointing out what violence is, the psychological dependence, imitation, conformity, domination, all that is inward violence. That is a fact. Can we deal with the fact and not with the idea of the opposite, only deal with facts and there is no opposite. Right? There is an opposite as darkness and light, woman and man, tall and short, black and white and so on. There is a difference. But inwardly is there duality at all? You understand my question? Are we following each other? Or am I talking to myself?
We are trying to understand why human beings live in conflict and whether it is at all possible to be totally free of conflict. Then the brain works astonishingly; then there is great energy, vitality, passion. But a mind that is constantly in conflict, not only wears down physically but also the brain becomes weak, worn out, old age and so on. So we are concerned this evening to understand why human beings live in conflict, not only with each other as the Arab and the Jew, and the Muslim and the Hindu and all that but also in our relationship with each other. And actually we are asking, is there a duality or only what is. You understand my question? There is only what is, that is I am violent. Now, is it possible to be free of violence, not to become non-violent? Is this clear? Are we meeting each other? Are we meeting each other? Don't. Are we meeting each other?
Krishnamurti: May I go on? Oh! Lord!
Q: We are not, sir.
Krishnamurti : We are not?
Q: We are not following, sir.
K: Let us go on. See, here, this country has propagated this idea of non-violence. Being violent, they are propagating something which they are not. And if you ask them, 'I am practising non-violence'. You understand? - practising. That means, I am gradually, day by day, practising to become that, not to understand violence but to become something which I have called non-violence. See the difference? And hence there is conflict. Right? When I am observing, learning, inquiring into the fact, there is no conflict. But if my mind is all the time saying I must achieve non-violence, then there is conflict. But if I say look, I am violent, what is the root of violence, what is the nature of violence, I don't condemn it, I observe it - now wait a minute. Here it is very important to understand what we mean by observing. Now, when you observe the full moon, do you observe it, do you see the beauty of that light, see the grandeur, the extraordinary quality of that light, or you say yes, it is a full moon and you do something else. So what do we mean by observing? Do you ever observe the mountain with all that grandeur, the majesty, the snow cap and the deep valleys full of dark shadows, the extraordinary majesty of mountains. When you observe for a single moment, all your problems have gone, because the majesty of that has driven away all your problems, for a second. Have you noticed this? But the old problems come back immediately. So we are going to talk over together what does it mean to observe
Now, suppose I am violent. How do I observe that violence, because I want to understand the nature of that violence. I want to go, explore, discover the extraordinary factors that contribute to violence. So how do I observe? First, is violence - please listen to this - is violence different from me? Right? You understand my question? I am asking, is that violence which I see when I say I am violent, is that violence different from me or I am that violence? When you are angry, you are angry. It is not you are different from anger. You are different from anger only when you want to control it, only when you say I must suppress it, but are you actually different, separate from violence. Please, we must go into this very carefully because most people say I am different from that object which I call violence. Is that so? Is the word 'violence' separated - you understand? - through tradition, through constant talking about violence and so on, the word itself has created a separation from observation. I wonder if you are following all this. Are your brains working actively as the speaker is? Silent. I will go on, if you are interested, it is up to you to find out
Q: We are.
K: So, the observer says, I am different from that, I am different from violence. So we have to enquire who is the observer. Right? The observer is the past, who has known what violence is. It is the past, is the knowledge, is the experience, is all the stored up memories. Those memories, those various forms of knowledge and the movement of all that is the past. Thought has divided itself as the past, the present and the future - right? So thought has divided itself as the observer and the observed - right? Thought has said, I am not violent but violence is not part of me. But when you look at it very closely, you are violent, you are angry, you are greedy, envious, competitive, depressed, you are all that. Right? You are not the watcher. The observer is not different from that which he is observing - right? Please understand. This is very important, because this will, if you really, truly understand this with your heart, with your mind, with all your being, conflict comes to an end, because there is no duality at all. Forget all your books, Vedanta and all the rest of it. The fact is there is no opposite except physically. Psychologically, inwardly there is only the fact. The fact is one is violent, angry, jealous, hatred and so on
Now, to observe the fact without its opposite, which thought has invented - right? - do you see this? To observe what is. In that observation, the observer is the observed, the thinker is the thought - right? - the experiencer is the experience. But we have separated it. We are saying, I must experience enlightenment or I must experience whatever you want to experience. So the thinker is the thought. There is no thinker without thought. The observer is the observed, the analyser is that which he is analysing. I can't I'll put it in ten different ways. But that is the fact. The observer is the observed. Therefore you eliminate altogether the sense of duality inwardly. Then there is no question of suppressing it, escaping from it, analysing. It is there. Then what takes place? You understand? Are we together at least a little bit, half of the way? What takes place when there is actually the realisation of this truth that there is, that there is only the fact, not the invented opposite, only that which is. In that, there is no division as the observer and the observed. Then what takes place? You understand? Have you ever done this or it is just all theories to you? Do you understand my question?
Man has lived in conflict from time immemorial. If you see those caves in France, in certain parts of the world, there is always the battle between the good and the bad, the good against the evil. Right? This has been the history of man - conflict. And we are asking if this conflict in man can end. Then he is a human being, vital, creative - you understand? - he is something extraordinary. And when there is this realisation that which that you are violent, not that you separate and violence is separate, you are that. You are brown, you have certain characteristics, you have troubles, you have professor or a scientist, all that you are, all that is not separate from you. So what takes place when this fact, this truth is realised, not intellectually, not verbally but deep down as a fact, as truth, what takes place? Have you not eliminated altogether the opposite? There is only this. And to - please follow this a minute - and to live with that like a precious jewel that you have discovered and you are watching it, see the beauty of that jewel, the light, the facets, the many aspects of it as you are watching it, which is part of yourself. Therefore, the watching, observing is extraordinarily important so that there is no division whatsoever between the watcher and that which is watched. Then you realise nothing can be done about it. You are brown. You cannot change it. You've dark hair, you can't change it. Of course you can change it by various colours and so on, but the fact. When there is such observation, it is not the word, it is not the memory, it is something totally new. You are facing this new reaction which you have called violence anew. That is, have you observed anything anew? Have you seen the moon, the new moon that is coming up as though for the first time in your life? Have you looked at your wife or your husband as though for the first time? Have you? Or, she is my wife, he is my husband, you know, just a mechanical observation. So to observe requires great enquiry, energy, vitality, to see actually what is
So we are now concerned with the elimination of altogether, of all kinds of conflict. That is, why do we have opinions? You understand my question? You have opinions, haven't you?, Judgments, why? Political opinions, religious opinions. Please enquire. Don't just listen to what the speaker is saying. Enquire into this. Why do you carry opinions? It is a burden. I am a Brahmin, you are not. I am a Sikh, you are not. I am a Muslim, you are not - you follow? - why these opinions? It indicates a mind that is or a brain which is so crowded with opinions, it is becoming small, petty, narrow. It is not free to enquire, look. So we must go into this question why human minds, human brain is always occupied, never free, never quiet. You are practising quietness - you follow? (Laughs) That is your meditation. It is like a pianist practising the wrong note. You understand this? So enquire into all this. Please, because we are reaching a crisis or we have a crisis in the world, tremendous crisis, and also crisis in our consciousness, in us
And we also should talk over together as we talked yesterday, that life is a process of relationship. Why in our relationship with each other, however intimate, sexual, however very close, why there is conflict? Why two people cannot live peacefully? Have you ever asked that question? Why? Because this is very important. If I don't know how to live peacefully with my wife, with my husband, with my girlfriend, whatever you like, I cannot live peacefully in the world. I may talk about peace, I may write a great deal about peace, go all over the world talking about peace but I am quarrelling with my wife or with my husband. So there is conflict in our relationship, why? Please enquire. Do you want me to tell you, or are you inquiring with the speaker? See the difference. You are waiting - actually the truth - you are waiting for me to tell you. But if you are really inquiring, it is a sharing, a moving together. So we will go into it. We are thinking together. That is so important. Not agreeing together but thinking, step by step, going together, like walking hand in hand down a lane where there is so much beauty, love and affection. Why is there this dissension, this division between man and man, and woman and man, in our relationship? Have you noticed, they are like two parallel lines never meeting. You may sleep with your wife or with your husband, or is that not mentioned publicly? Would you kindly tell me? Is it not mentioned publicly? In this country it is a kind of hidden, secret, keep it closed, don't talk about it. Everybody shies away from it, not from the act, but talking, looking. (Laughter) We are such hypocrites! We never say what we mean and stick to what you mean. We waffle
So we are going to find out together why in human relationship we have such desperate, lonely, ugly, conflicts. I am not married - suppose I am married. I have my ambition, my desires, my problems. In my office I am competitive, aggressive. I am pursuing my own direction and the wife also is pursuing her own - right? - ambitious or not ambitious, too docile and I dominate and she resists it. You know, the whole game. So we are asking, why is there this conflict, because we two have to live together. We have sex, we have children but we two are separate. Right? Isn't it a fact? Isn't it? I dominate her or she dominates me, she bullies me or I bully her, I scold her or she scolds me. And I don't beat her but I am angry with her. I like to beat her but I am little more controlled. (Laughter) Yes, sir, you laugh, this is all facts. But I am an individual, she is an individual. Each must have his own ways, sexually, in habits, in our desires. How can two people live together like that? Which means you have no love at all for your wife or your husband. Do you know what it means to love another? Have you ever loved anybody? Is love dependence? Is love desire? Is love pleasure? I don't love my wife. She doesn't love me. We are two separate individuals. We may meet sexually but otherwise we carry on our own particular way. Do you understand, sir? Does love exist in this country? Don't say does it exist in Europe. When I am in Europe, when the speaker is in Europe, he talks about it. But we are talking about it here as we are in this country, in this part of the world. Is there love in this country? Do you love anybody? Can love exist with fear, when each one is becoming something? I am becoming a saint and she is not, or she is becoming a saint, I am not, when each one is becoming something. You understand? Please understand all this. It is your life. And when each one is becoming something, how can there be love?
So what will you do? Do you understand my question? I have talked about it. What will you do? Get up and go home and forget all about it? Or, will you enquire, if it is possible to love another without wanting a single thing from another, neither emotionally, physically, in any way, not ask my wife for anything - psychologically. She may cook my meal, I may bring money. I am not talking of that. But inwardly, love cannot exist where there is attachment. If you are attached to your guru, you are not loving, there is no love in your heart. So this is very, very serious. Without love, there is no right action. When there is love whatever you do is right action. We talk about action. We do social kind of social work. But when there is love in your heart, in your eyes, in your blood, in your face, you are a different human being. Whatever you do then has beauty, has grace, is a right action
All this may be excellent words you hear. But what will you will you have this quality? It cannot be cultivated, it cannot be practised, it cannot be bought from your guru, from your from anybody. But without that, you are dead human beings. So what will you do? Sir, please do ask this question, find out for yourself why this flame does not exist in you, why you have become such paupers. You see, unless we put our house in order, our house, which is ourselves, there will be no order in the world. You may meditate for the rest of your life. Without that, your meditation has no meaning. So, please, most respectfully we are asking, what will you do after hearing all this, what is your response?
Q: I want to ask something, please.
K: Yes, Sir.
Q: Sir, if we realise the oneness of thought and everyone, what he thinks, I think, and he is entitled to his own thought, would not that be...
K: You did not listen, sir. Forgive me for pointing out. You have not listened to what the speaker has said previously, that thought is not yours or mine.
Q: That is what I mean. I realise that it is not mine, it is not his, it is thought. So he does what he thinks.
K: (Laughs) No, sir. If you and I realise that thought is shared by all humanity, then there is no different thoughts. There is no you agreeing, I disagreeing. We will go into it another time
Q: But will that stop?
K: No, sir.
Q: I have a question, too.
Krishnamurti : What, Sir? Stay there sir, stay there, stay there.
Q: Well, sir, you have been talking about radical change for the last 50 years and I wonder sometimes there is obviously there is not any radical change in this world.
K: All right.
Q: My question to you, sir
K: Then why do you talk? Is that it?
Q: That’s right. Precisely.
K: Yes. The gentleman asks - are you interested suddenly in this? You are all become active suddenly? (Laughter) The gentleman asks - this will be the last question, please - the gentleman asks you have talked probably over 50 years, you have talked about fundamental change of human consciousness and so on and so on for the last 50 years and more and there is no change at all. Then the question is: why do you talk? I am not, the speaker is not talking for his amusement, for his fulfilment, for his encouragement, or if he didn't talk, he wouldn't be depressed, he wouldn't feel lacking something. The speaker has tried not to talk for a year. Therefore, why do I talk? You understand? Have you ever asked why the lotus blooms? Have you ever asked it? Have you, sir? Have you? No, just a minute, have you?
K: Don't let this become an argument, please. Have you ever asked a flower why it grows, why it has so much beauty, why it has such marvellous colour, the depth and the smell and the glory of a simple flower? Or, the speaker may be talking out of compassion. May be, but he is not talking for his self fulfilment
K: Sir, please, don't