We were talking about the other day, why do we turn out mice instead of lions? May we talk about that a little? We seem to spend a great deal of energy and capacity on these students. Their parents, obviously, want them to be safe, well-educated, to have a good job, settle down in life, marry, children - the whole business of it. And we spend enormous energy in educating them to fill in that gap, or that slot, or that space - as an engineer, as a philosopher, as an academician, and scientist and so on. Is that all that we can do? Come on, sirs, it's in your lap, in your court.

Like Kabir is experimenting; he's organising some kind of educational structure, or non-structure. He must spend a great deal of energy in thinking it out, with the others. Talk to the parents, talk to the students and yet they remain mice - tame, domestic mice. And we seem to be satisfied with that. There are nearly 350 students here - 340 or 350, it doesn't matter - and the same number of students in Rajghat, and about 250 or so in Madras, Bangalore 150. And out of this lot, about a thousand - I don't have to conclude the sentence.

So what shall we do? Apparently they go abroad, some of them, if they are unlucky enough, and they get swallowed up by the American technology, by the girls, by the marvellous beauty of the land. And they are lost there. Some of them are in the IBM, some invent something new. They seem to flower in the technological world in America. At least some of them do. And of course, nobody goes to England anymore. Perhaps some of them go to Germany. And they apparently do extraordinarily well in technological, mechanical world. They have got fairly good memories, fairly good brains, and they slip into that rut.

And here we are, nearly a thousand students in our schools, and we don't seem to be able to produce one gazelle, or one lion, or even a big elephant. Why is this? I am asking you. Please, you are the educators. Is there something wrong in our approach to all this?

Rajghat and this school, Rishi Valley, have existed for nearly 60 years and more, and when you consider the enormous energy that we have put into it - it's incalculable energy - building, making the land fertile, digging wells, and yesterday there was the collector here for lunch, and he said he's going to build more dams and all the rest of it. Environment seems to help us enormously - the trees, the land, those enormous rocks and the extraordinary beauty of this land. But somehow all that becomes insignificant, when we, as educators, are incapable of doing something marvellous. I believe both, especially Rishi Valley, has got a good reputation. It is fairly well known.

May I tell you a joke? The other day I was coming by air, going somewhere or other. He said, 'From where are you?' - somebody asked me. 'Oh', I said, 'somewhere'. And he said, 'Actually, where are you from? Are you Turk? Are you Persian Are you one of the Muslim world?' I said, 'No, no, no'. 'Where are you from?' I said, 'I am from the Valley of the Rishis'. (Laughter) Rather good name for this place. He said, 'Where is that?' I said, 'You won't find it'. (Laughter)

So what shall we do together? To do, or not do, something extraordinarily alive, vital. Not let the students fall into the same old rut, business or army or this and that. Please, I would like your advice and discussion.

RH: Sir, if may I say something. Perhaps I am just paraphrasing you. But, I feel we fail because we deal with the problem you're posing, when we talk to our children, when we try to do something, we constantly make a problem of it

Krishnamurti: Without making a problem of it, what is amiss? What is not correct? What is it that we should or should not do to bring about a totally different human being? I don't know if you are interested in this.

RH: But perhaps, sir, the question shouldn't be posed in the way you are posing it.

K: Then let us pose it differently. What is it I want my daughter or my son when I send them here, knowing that they will get a very good academic knowledge? And the parents are not really concerned about the other. Right?

RH: But then some way..

K: Yes some, but it's such a drop in a bucket. You see the fruit of it all. Right? So what shall we do together? Please, I am putting all these questions to all of you. It's not just... What shall we do, come on sir, what shall we do sir? I don't want you to experiment on my children. Right?

KJ: Yes sir.

K: I say what the hell are you doing with my children, experimenting, like animals, pigs?

KJ: Sir, we are not. I think it's a very wrong notion that has gone around that we are experimenting.

K: I don't care. Are you experimenting with them? Are you trying something new on them?

KJ: No.

K: Or are you trying to bring a different quality of a human being?

KJ: I would say we're trying to do the latter, sir. We are trying to do the latter.

K: You can't. All right, sir. In what way? Sorry, I'm going to examine you, now that you're close. In what way are you trying to bring about a different quality of a human being? He's one of the - where is the other chap? No, they all hide here. There is - yes. These two are supposed to run Bangalore school. You would have stayed there last night, but they were here so you couldn't stay. When did you leave this morning?

Q: Five fifteen.

K: Five fifteen? Good lord! I hope you had a nice journey. Beautiful Right.

Sir, you tell me. Your way may be the right way or the wrong way. I don't know. So you tell me. I've sent my daughter and son to you. I want them - please, I'm a fairly educated human being; I've seen different parts of the world, a little, not too much; I'm fairly knowledgeable and I send you these two children to you. I've a feeling that or rather wishing, longing that you would do something different from the usual run of the schools. And I would like them to be academically excellent, because that is part of life, part of earning a beastly livelihood, with all the boredom of it. And also I would like them to be - if I may use the word most delicately - religious. Not the usual temple and all that nonsense. So I send them to you. For nine months you have to be in charge of them. Proceed. Tell me what you would do. What will you do? Not, 'We hope'. Not, 'We will try'. Not, 'We'll do our best'. Because, that all sounds silly to me. So what will you do, sir? Sir this is a question to all of you, not just to...

JR: Sir, may I respond to this? Why are we assuming that anything can be done. These schools have been going for sixty years...

K: Sir, I will tell you.

JR: These schools have been going for sixty years...

K: I know all that sir.

JR: and there's nothing extraordinary that has happened yet.

K: Yes.

JR: So why do we assume, is there any evidence that anything can be done in the school?

K: I'll tell you. We started this school - this and Rajghat. I used to sleep on the floor here. No water, no electricity, the toilet was all this open field. We thought we would educate them differently. We thought. I still think it can be done. You may say, 'You're rather a bit odd in your head. Nothing can be done'. You might say that. I say, sorry, since you have educated man in that direction - right? - commercialism, technology, job, good life - you know all that. Since you have done it, man can do something else too. You understand?

JR: Why do we assume that

K: Why not? If you have done that if you have gone that way, why can't he go that way too?

JR: Because maybe it can't be taught.

K: Why not? It may be. You assume it may not.

JR: I don't know.

K: Therefore, let's find out if it can. You may take 50 years, 100 years - I hope not. There must be the other direction too. The Jesuits have done it. Right sir? The Jesuits.

JR: Have they produced extraordinary individuals that you're talking about? The Jesuits, have they produced extraordinary

K: Oh yes! They have produced what they wanted to produce. The communist cells were based on Jesuit cells. They took a great deal from Loyola. So, you can't say human beings cannot go some other way too.

So what shall we do - you and I, and the rest of us - to see if we can bring something tremendously out of these places?

KJ: Krishnaji, obviously it cannot be experimenting, in the sense of groping around. It cannot be 'I hope, I'll do my best'.

K: Ah! I don't want you to do your best, which would be nothing.

KJ: Yes. Yes.

K: To me, to do something, your best, is nothing.

KJ: Right.

K: So, what will you, as a human being, create, build? You have built the pyramids, you have built the sphinx, you have built the Parthenon. You've built the most extraordinary things in life. And why can't we do this?

RH: Sir, one of the prerequisites, it seems to me, should be that one should be very critical - self critical - not satisfied with what we have done, what we are doing.

K: You mean self-critical?

RH: Critical - what we have done so far.

K: That's what I'm saying. What have you done so far?

Q: Maybe our attention is in the wrong place. If we give attention to the children, yes, but it’s what we are that we give to the children.

K: Just a minute, lady, just a minute. The parents want their children to be safe, secure. So, to be secure in this society you must have a degree, and examination, study, all that. Then they also want - the parents - the parents also want their children to be married and settle down. They have a job, and marry and settle down. 'For god's sake, get on with it'. Breed like hell and carry on. Is it the parents, or is it ourselves or is it we are caught up in a system, in a whirlpool that cannot but carry us along in its old way? You understand my question? I cannot admit that. To me that's defeatism, to be defeated by a theory. So what shall I do, what shall we do? Please, come on sir.

RD: Sir, the Jesuits and the communists, they rally their energy, all the people, they put all their energy onto a common goal. It gives them a tremendous sense of energy. Now we are seeing that kind of energy, is the same thing. It is still isolation.

K: Yes.

RD: Our question is, when we see this, we're lost. We don't have...

K: No, Rajesh. Just a minute sir. What are you trying to tell me? If all of us have a certain goal, certain purpose, certain definite delineated shape, idea, or a principle or a pattern, then we can put all our energy into it. Can we? Can we all agree, all of us in this room, agree that we need a different kind of brain, a different kind of outlook on life, a different way of living, of feeling and so on? Could we all agree on that?

RD: I think many of us are agreed on that.

K: Ah, No! I'm asking.

RH: Sir, we may agree, but what is the content of that agreement?

K: That's what I'm coming to. Agree we should build the sphinx, and we know we can't do it. So can we all agree profoundly on something together. Not superficially, not say, 'Yes, yes. Let's get on with it'. Can we have the same vision - I'm using the word 'vision', not the world of psychiatry but in the world of on the earth - can we all together have one vision? Or is that impossible? Come on sirs.

RH: Sir it can be possible but the same vision can be accompanied by fanaticism, zealousness.

K: No.

RH: You don't want all that.

K: No, no.

RD: What is the quality of that vision? What is the nature of that vision?

K: I'll tell you in a minute. That's not the point. The question is: can we all come together about something? Not purpose, goal, god and all that, but the feeling that we are together, first.

RD: About something?

K: No!

RD: You said that.

K: No.

RD: Sir, you said it.

K: No, I didn't say that. Now I'm saying, can we all feel that we are together doing something. Not, 'What'?

RH: That's very different.

K: Ah, that's what I'm saying. Come on sirs. I mean, if you all want to build a house, that's fairly simple. Because we all have a common goal, we all want so many windows, so many bathrooms, so many rooms, so many sitting rooms and all the rest of it - that's fairly simple. Then we say, 'Good idea, let's all work together'. That is, you're working for a purpose, for a goal, for an end. But we are saying, first what is important is not the building, is not the shape of the house, the windows, bathrooms and so on, but the feeling that we are together. Don't go to sleep please. If we have that feeling we can do anything.

JR: Sir, what would bring about this feeling of togetherness, if it's not some kind of a conscious goal?

K: No, sir, we can't do anything in the world by ourselves. Right? Nothing! The Parthenon was not built by one man putting stones. It was a feeling, for Athena (I won't go into that story) and putting it all together, with tremendous intelligence. Right? Can't we do the same thing here?

JR: But there's a goal there.

K: No, no, no. The feeling for the goddess. You understand? Goddess of wisdom, Athena. Right? The feeling of it, I'm talking, not the godless. That came later.

KJ: Are you talking about being together in the feeling for the religious quality?

K: I'm saying sir, do we have that feeling first?

KJ: Of being together.

K: Of being together. You cannot do anything by yourself in the world. You need my help, you need his help, you need your wife, you need someone. You can't live by yourself, unless you trot off to the Himalayas. And then there too, somebody comes and feeds you. The sense of isolation, which separates, that's all I'm objecting to.

RH: Isn't that inevitable if you rally around a goal?

K: No, no. I'm not talking of a goal, a purpose, an end, a goddess, or this. The feeling: I can't live by myself. The feeling

SP: What I feel is, we get this feeling for a while, this feeling of togetherness. But when our own idiosyncrasies, our own tendencies come to the fore, and then somehow that feeling gets lost.

K: No sir, you can't lose it, if you have that feeling I one's... I don't think we are talking of the same thing.

KJ: If it is an emotional...

K: Not emotional sir. Even intellectually you can't do anything.

KJ: I agree sir, intellectually one can say that one can't do a thing alone.

K: You can't. To have a child, a woman and a man is necessary. It may be a tube or anything, but a man is necessary. So, this idea, 'Leave us alone, we will do something by ourselves', is impossible. We are together in this. And I don't think you get that feeling. I don't think you have that feeling. To have that feeling implies that you sit down, if there is any misunderstanding, wipe it out the next second. You follow?

RD: Sir can you explore a bit more into this?

K: What? Into what?

RD: Into this question of - you made a statement that you cannot do this alone. No one person can do this. It is absolutely clear.

K: Except in parliament, or in a dictator.

RD: One person can only bully the rest.

K: Yes. So we're not talking of that kind.

RD: Or he can influence the rest. We're not talking of that.

K: The feeling that we are not separate, the feeling that you cannot - sir, you're utterly responsible for whatever you do. Right?

I walk down that road. I see a branch fallen on it. I pick it up. I'm responsible, and not say, 'Well, the gardener will come and pick it up'. And if there is this feeling of responsibility, then you are together. I don't know if I'm conveying it. Please sir, let's discuss it, don't let me talk.

RD: Sir, there is this tendency to isolate.

K: Don't bring in all that. I know that. What will you do, Rajesh? Don't talk about these things. What are you doing?

RD: When you watch it, sometimes you're not able to end that. It has its own force.

K: What? What?

RD: At times.

K: Not at times. Now.

RD: Now I see what you are saying.

K: What do you say? Can we work together? Or you shirk responsibility and I do all the work? And you come along, then criticise. Suppose this happens. I say, 'What the hell do you mean by it?' You and I are involved in this thing. It's not you are superior, I'm inferior. You take the spade. I've taken the spade, dug a hole. You do the same. Don't tell me, 'I'll improve the hole'.

RD: No but if you feel that, you will keep digging holes, there's nothing in those holes, you don't want to do it.

K: I will plant a tree in those holes. What are you talking about? I dig a hole for an orange tree, or whatever tree, and I see it's the proper depth, soil, compost, all kinds of stuff in it - and I'll plant it.

RD: (Inaudible)

K: But it's my responsibility for the whole thing. I want Rishi Valley to be the most beautiful place on earth, so I work. What are you people doing? You don't come and supervise me and tell me what to do.

RD: Of course not.

K: I know sir. You dig. You plant, because you care for the whole place.

RD: Sir, you don't know what it means to care for the whole place. You want to find out what it means to care for the whole place.

K: I'll tell you.

RD: You don't want to just fragmentarily plant a tree, and plant this. You can go on.

K: No, I'll tell you. Really, you want me to tell you what it means? Sir, there is a particular hill, in Saanen, going up towards a certain other little town called Schonreid. We were driving up that steep slope, and a girl in front of us, on a bicycle, sees a piece of paper on the road, gets down, picks up that piece of paper and trundles up the hill. And there is a bin at the corner. She drops it in there. A little girl of fifteen, twelve or whatever she was - yes sir.

RD: You say that that is caring for the whole?

K: Jesus!

RD: No, I'm not going to let you make that statement and...

K: Sir, in the sense, she was responsible for that piece of paper, responsible to see that road was kept clean.

RD: Sir, each one of us here must be doing that - several times in a day.

K: Rajnesh Rejesh. (Laughter) Sir, I'm talking the feeling of responsibility, not for a particular thing, but the feeling of responsibility. If you feel that, you do everything.

RH: And sir, there is no feeling of my vision, and your vision.

K: Ah. That's why I'm asking you all, gentlemen and ladies, what shall we do? Knowing that you cannot build anything by yourself. Impossible, sir. So what will you do? Tell me, please. You know, you like to discuss, talk. Tell me what to do - not verbal statement, not theoretical, tell me, I've come here as one of you, as a worker - worker, not a theoretician - and I say, Rajesh, please tell me, or Kabir or X, Y, Z - tell me what I am to do - please listen to what I'm saying - not to bring about larger mouse, but something tremendously different. And if you want me to explain, I'll explain what is the difference. So how will you manage this, how will you bring this about? And it's your responsibility because you are the educator here, you have lived here, you have worked here, you have shaken hands with others, salute, you have drank the same water, same bread. Tell me sirs, please, what shall I do?

Look sir, K happened to dissolve the organisation, tremendous organisation, because he was the head of it - close it. And he did the same with other things. Recently, he said, no more talks at Saanen, because he was alone there and he decided. Here, we have to deal with five hundred people. Right? He can't say, 'Let's do this, don't do that'. We are all together here. Living in the same valley, eating the same food, etc., etc. So I can't say, 'Do this, do that'. I couldn't do it, personally. So I'm asking you gentlemen, what shall we do together. For god's sake, wake up. Mr Kumaraswamy, what shall we do?

Sir this is a challenge to you. You have to answer it. You can't just neglect it. Look sir, come on sir. You are full of energy, aggressive action, tell me what to do. I'm one of your - what do you call them? - one of your

Q: Co-workers?

K: colleagues. You are not my boss. You're not my educator. I'm one of your colleagues. And I say, sir what shall we do? That is, you and I talk it over. You don't lay down and say, 'Do this'. I won't. I have come to you on a different footing, on a different understanding: that we are colleagues, we're working together. You start, and tell me what to do - not that I will accept what you tell me, but I will discuss it with you.

KJ: I don't know where to start answering this question, Krishnaji. One doesn't know where to start answering. There is the obvious need for the sense of togetherness. And there are a hundred things that come out of it.

K: You tell me one that's the key to it. That key may open vast vistas, vast rooms or something, but you tell me the key to it. Come on, please, don't go to sleep. Rajesh, tell me the key to it.

RD: What is the point if I can't end it? What is the point of saying it verbally - the key?

K: No, I want you to tell me. Not verbally. If you ask me - you're all waking up? (laughter) - if you ask me, I would first ask you, before you ask me, why are you talking to me? What's your relationship with me?

KJ: Supposing I say we're working together.

K: Ah, that's all bananas.

KJ: You're in the school, so...

K: No, I'm not talking that. I'm not talking about schools. I'm talking about, what's your relationship with another human being? You are a human being. You're not a principal, Akbar, no, Kabir - you might be Akbar's reincarnation. (Laughs)

I say first, what's your relationship to me? I have to answer that question. What's your relationship ladies and gentlemen, what's your relationship with me? That stumps you. Kabir, I mean Rajesh, tell me what's your relationship with me, K? You have to be very honest in this. You're going to marry me. Or I'm going to marry you. What's your relationship?

RD: Shall I honestly answer it?

K: Oh! For god's sake.

RD: Sir, but don't pounce on me. Give me time. If you point I can't answer it.

K: Why I'm asking this question is, we are going to establish a relationship first. Right? If we have no relationship we can't work together. Right? So I'm asking you, not personally, if you don't mind, what's your relationship with K? Have you any relationship with him? Don't say, 'What do you mean by the word 'relationship''.

RD: No, I won't ask.

K: I will tell you.

RD: Yes, but I won't ask you. Unless you wish to still...

K: No, tell me what your relationship is, or have you no relationship with anybody? I'm asking this of all of us.

RD: Sir, that, perhaps, is a very true statement, that one has no relationship.

K: I'm asking you. Don't budge. What's your relationship to K?

RD: K has stirred...

K: Careful, careful, careful!

RD: You're too quick sir. You won't allow me to...

K: So, what is your relationship with Mrs with Radikaji, what's your relationship with her? Or with Mrs Thomas? Or with Kabir? Or with somebody else? What's your relationship, sir? Don't go on.

RD: My relationship is based on my experience of them. I know, please, you've asked me, I'll tell you.

K: I'm asking what's your relationship? Is it a friend ?

RD: Yes.

K: Is it your boss?

RD: No.

K: Wait!

RD: Go ahead, I'm just...

K: Is it your constant companion, because you see her every day? You see her, talk to her everyday. Pour out your troubles, or whatever you talk to her. Is she listening to you? Considering you? Trying to understand you? Or you are trying to understand her? Why she does this, that, that and the other thing? Or, you have kept to yourself. The same thing, what's your relation with him, or him, or her? You see you don't answer these questions. Or you have no relationship at all. Because you have - I'm not saying you have, or haven't - because you have no relationship, you move along. So I'm asking you, sir, unless we establish a real relationship we can't work together. Genuine one, not a kind of ideological, romantic, sexual or otherwise. I am saying, do you, who have lived here for so many years, have any kind of relationship with any of these people here?

RD: If you ask me very deeply, I would say no. Very deeply, no.

K: Good! Therefore you can't work with others.

RD: Exactly. That is what is going on. Everybody...

K: Ah, don't say what's going on. I know what's going on. I'm not blind.

RD: You're right, sir. We've no relationship, in that sense.

K: So...

RD: In that sense.

K: Wait - of course. Is that so with all of us?

RD: Yes.

K: Don't you answer.

RD: Sorry. (Laughter) Sorry.

K: Is that so with all of us? I'm asking. Don't answer anything else, because from that stems everything. It's the fountain. If that fountain is not flowing, you can't work together, you can't build together.

RD: Sir, why is one frightened of 'breaking the bottle'? You used the analogy last time, 'to break the bottle'.

K: Yes, break the bottle.

RD: Why is one frightened to break the bottle?

K: Sir, do you want a good relationship with me?

RD: Good relationship?

K: You didn't hear what I said: good. Really good relationship with another with whom you can talk, expose, feel all, tell all your troubles, you know, a friend. For god's sake

RD: That kind of relationship I have with many people.

K: Oh no!

RD: If you say a friend...

K: No, I'm asking you, do you have a relationship with another, so that you don't have to talk, you can be quiet, but there is an inter-flow.

RD: There is.

K: A very...

RD: I have. I have.

K: How many?

RD: A person opens up to me, I open up to the person, there is no fear, there is no hesitation...

K: Oh, no, no, no. I am asking you, do you have the feeling of being related? It doesn't matter with whom.

RD: No, no.

K: So how can you work with another who has that feeling - suppose?

RD: I know, sir. That is what has been happening.

K: So what will you do? Ah! No. No! Don't throw up your shoulders.

RD: Cry?

K: Do. Cry.

RD: I've done it, sir.

K: All right, if you have cried, then what, after that, wipe your fears and get on with it. Then what? I'm not bullying you sir. I'm not being personal, I'm just asking, how can we work together, build together, think together, if we have no relationship with each other? Not sexual, not I say I lean on you, you lean on me, I lean on you, I scratch your back, you scratch mine. I don't mean that kind of relationship.

If you stand alone, you're related. I don't know if you understand. If you're dependent, you're not related. Sir, that's my job to go on like this.

So, you tell me, some of you, what shall we do together to bring about a different quality of a human being for whom we are responsible. The parents have put their children here, paying an awful lot of money. All the bother of it, train journey back and forth, and here you don't eat meat, there they eat meat, there they smoke - you know all that goes on. Here you have them for nine months, what will you do with them? Apart from academics.

How does it feel to be in India? Strange country. We'll talk over it later.

Come on sirs. What's the good of being silent?

Would you work under authority? Don't say no, sir. Be careful, careful, don't say no.

RD: I would fight it. I will not...

K: Don't say 'fight', don't answer yet, because you haven't gone into it.[ Would you, if I because the authority here - god forbid

RD: I would leave this place.

K: You wouldn't.

RD: I bet sir, I would.

K: I'll tell you why...

RD: If you were an authority, I would not have lived in this place.

K: He won't even listen, that boy. Do you know what I would do? I would cajole, play with you, I would say, 'Come on old boy', you know. (Laughter)

Now would you work under authority? It's a very serious question, sir. Don't just say, 'I won't'. It may be the authority of a committee. It may be the authority of half a dozen people. It may be the authority of some entity called KFI. Is it that there is no feeling that we are together in this? I can't build a house by myself. Impossible. I must have a carpenter. I must have a man who deals with glass, you know, all that, electricity and so on. So, I want to co-operate, I want to say, 'Please, let's do it all together'. Have you that feeling? I'm not asking you. Have you got that feeling?

RH: I'm sorry I interrupted. But sir, may I ask a different round-about question? And that is that we earlier said that there is no such thing as my vision and your vision and that fragmenting. Would you allow that perhaps that there is a vision that is if we work together and inevitable vision...

K: I don't follow.

RH: Not a fragmented vision of different people but if we co-operate, when we co-operate is there a vision that is almost organic?

K: Yes. I think there is. I understand that.

RH: And that it is our business to discover it. And in the co-operation perhaps it can be discovered.

K: Radhikaji, you are not answering my question.

RH: What is it, sir?

K: What shall we do together? Not to bring about bigger mice but a lion, something outrageous. Not outrageous, you understand.

RH: I don't know what to do if you pose the question that way.

K: Suppose you don't know, how will you then start? I don't know. How will you, not knowing, begin?

RH: It must begin that way because then it is...

K: You understood what I said?

RH: Yes.

K: Not knowing, you begin.

RH: Yes.

K: Not experiment. You begin. I wonder if you understand what I am saying. Is it that we all know and therefore we do nothing?

RH: And bully each other.

K: I am not being clever. This is not being astute or cunning. Somehow I feel we are all striving after something that we inwardly feel is important. You understand? And therefore we never start with saying, 'I really don't know. Let us move together'.

KJ: Isn't it in not knowing you do move together, because in knowing...

K: Yes, sir. Yes, sir. So, start with yourself. Do you You start with knowing - I am not being personal - and you botch up the whole thing. I come along or he comes along and says, 'Sir, I really don't know how to build this house. I don't know anything. Let's talk together.' You are not instructing me. I am not instructing you. Let's see what it really means not knowing. What is the content of not knowing? Is there any content to not knowing? Is that a different quality of the brain. You understand? Because we say, 'Yes, I know about this. I know about that, and god of course'. You know, we know every damn thing. So, you and I start with not knowing. That is an immense thing. I don't know if you follow.

KJ: Yes.

K: It is not you are experimenting on me or I am experimenting on you, but I don't know. I am not weak. You understand? I am not weak. On the contrary I am full of this extraordinary energy which is free from knowing. So, we talk it over, not knowing, what is the content of not knowing. And we have to eat food two hours later. You follow, sir. I don't know if you follow. Won't some of you say something? Is it time? It is time, I know. Aren't you tired of your long journey?

RH: Not yet.

K: This is the last...

RH: Teacher's talk, yes.

RD: It seems the mind is knowing. Knowing is the very nature of things.

K: Is the brain. It is the nature of the brain. Knowing.

RD: So, when you say, 'I don't know, let us find out'. You will find out in talking over, but it will still be knowing.

K: When you say, 'I don't know', if you really say it to yourself, what takes place? Don't conjecture up things. What actually takes place when you say, 'I really don't know.' I really don't know what's the other side of the mountain. Right? I have never taken the trouble to climb. I won't imagine. I won't - et cetera. So, I want to find out what it means to look over the mountain. Either climb the mountain if I can, or I can't. But there is something still on the outside, beyond the mountain.

RD: How do you know? Why do ask that question?

K: What question am I asking?

RD: When you ask this question...

K: What question?

RD: That there is something else.

K: 'Maybe', I said. You didn't listen. There may be something beyond the mountain. Right? To find that out, either I have to climb the mountain to find out or say, 'Sorry, I don't know what is beyond it.' Right? You understand?

RD: I am not sure I understand.

K: What is the difficulty, old boy? The mountain suddenly - drop. Maybe. So to find out I have to climb the mountain. But I can't climb the mountain. Right? I am too old or too young or too inexperienced. I can't. And I won't imagine what is on the other side of the mountain. So, I say, 'I don't know what is on the other side of the mountain.' Right? It may a sheer precipice or it may be the most beautiful of valleys. Right? I don't know. I won't pretend. I won't imagine. I won't get emotional about it. I don't know. If you go up there and see, don't tell me. Your description won't satisfy me.

Shall we stop? It is time.