Is psychological time an invention of thought?
Can a human being undergo a deep, radical transformation?
3rd Public Talk, Brockwood Park
September 04, 1976
Shall we go on with what we were talking about the other day, when we last met here. We talked about relationship, which is so important, because probably that's the basis of all society. When that relationship is in constant conflict, as it is now, our whole social and moral structure must inevitably be corrupt. And we said - if you remember rightly - that relationship, being of extraordinary importance, breeds conflict because our relationship is based on the movement of thought - the movement of thought being memory, measure, knowledge. And when knowledge interferes with relationship then there must be conflict - knowledge being all that one has accumulated during the past - incidents, nagging, and all the rest of human relationship - what goes on.
And this morning, if we may continue, we ought to talk about time, sorrow, love and that extraordinarily important thing also in our life, which is death. We have rather a crowded morning with so many things to talk about together - and I hope that we are sharing this thing together; not merely listening to a series of ideas, words, and through wrong listening make what is said into a conclusion and agree or disagree with those conclusions. But what we are trying to do is talk things over as two friends concerned with human problems and the importance of bringing about a radical transformation in our consciousness. That's what we have been talking about, and we shall go on with that today and tomorrow.
What is time? I think this is important to understand because that may be one of the factors of our fear about death. So we must understand the nature of time: not the scientific fiction of time or timelessness, but the actual psychological time that thought has built. So there are two kinds of time: the chronological, the daily events - yesterday, today and tomorrow - and there is the psychological time - the hope, what will be, and the achievement of what should be. All that involves time. Time is a movement. Please, follow all this in yourself, not as an idea. Time is a movement, as thought is movement. So thought and time are very closely related. There is chronological time - yesterday, today and tomorrow - catching the bus, train, going to the office, and all the rest of that - time according to a watch, daylight, night. And, there is the whole nature of time, as thought has built in the psyche, in ourselves; that is, 'what is' and 'what should be', a movement from here to there. Is there psychological time at all, or, it is actually an invention of thought? That is, what is jealousy, anger cruelty, violence - that is 'what is'. And to overcome that we need time. That is the traditional, educated, conditioned thinking that to change 'what is' to 'what should be' - from here to there - you need to cover that distance, time - which is effort. Right? We're meeting each other? Effort, to go from here psychologically towards an end - that end projected by thought, a purpose, a goal, an achievement, enlightenment and all the rest of it. That is, to move from here, 'what is', to 'what should be', the ideal. That's what we have accepted, that is our normal thinking, or rather, educated thinking. It may be perhaps a neurotic thinking. Because we do not know how to deal with 'what is' immediately, so we think we need time to achieve that which should be. Because we don't know, or we are not capable, we don't understand how to deal with 'what is' - anger, jealousy, hatred, sorrow, and all the immense confusion which thought, man has created in himself, and so outwardly.
So, we need time; at least we think so. That is, if all hope is removed - hope is time. Right? Please follow all this. One is desperate, anxious, frightened, all the things that human beings go through, to transform all that into something which is perhaps totally different, we think we need a process of time. Right? Please understand this clearly. That is, the psychological time - the chronological time and the psychological time. We are talking about the psychological time. Time, we said, is a movement as thought is a movement in time. So, is there an ideal, the 'what should be', something different from 'what is'? You understand my question? I am envious, one is envious. We know all the implications of that envy, with the results of it in society, in our relationship with each other, and to overcome or to go beyond that envy I need some days, weeks, months, years. Is that so, or is it total illusion? Can 'what is' be changed immediately, instantly? If it can, then the ideal, that which should be, is non-existent. We are understanding each other?
Please, perhaps some of you are here for the first time and not have listened to all the other talks and therefore this may all sound rather strange, extravagant and quite loony. (Laughter) But actually when you go into it very deeply, into oneself, which is important, because as we said, you are the world and the world is you, and wherever you go every human being, whatever colour, whatever nationality, whatever religion he may be, he has these human problems of great sorrow, tears, laughter, anxiety, pain, that's the common factor of human beings. And so the world wherever you are, that human beings are, they go through the same psychological phenomena as yourself, so you are actually the world and the world is you. If you can realise that, feel that profoundly then it becomes extraordinarily important that one should transform oneself completely, psychologically, because then you affect the total consciousness of the world. That gives you enormous vitality, energy, strength when you see that you are like the rest of humanity, and therefore there is no separate, individualistic struggle to overcome one's own particular sorrow.
So we are saying it's very important to understand time. Time is part of our consciousness, time is the division between 'what is' and 'what should be', and the effort made to change 'what is' according to 'what should be', that needs great time, from here to there. I think we must question that whole process. Though it has become traditional we must question it, doubt it. And doubt is a very important thing in life. To doubt. Perhaps one or two religions - like Buddhism - start by questioning everything. As we said the other day, if you start with certainty, as most people do, then you end up with nothing. But if you start with doubting, questioning, being sceptical, trying to investigate then you end up with clarity. So we are questioning this idea that we need time to change 'what is' into 'what should be', which is a psychological process. Why is it not possible to change 'what is' immediately - not have the ideal. You understand my question? Ideal is a projection of 'what is' away from 'what is'. The ideal is non-existent. It's a fiction, the ideal. What is actual, is what exists, 'what is'. So we are dealing with 'what is', which is actual, and trying to change 'what is' into 'what should be' which is illusory. So we are always caught between the fact and what is illusion. So, if one is able to think very clearly, objectively, non-personally then is it possible to change 'what is' without transforming it into 'what should be'.
Is it possible to change, say, for example, envy - with all the implications involved in envy - without having an opposite, which is non-greed, non-envy, to change 'what is'. And you can change 'what is' only when you have the energy which is not being wasted in trying to overcome 'what is'. I wonder if I'm You see we are again traditionally bound, conditioned to an 'opposite' - love/hate, violence/non-violence. We'll take violence. Violence is apparently in the human nature - anger, competition, ruthlessness, trying to express oneself at any cost against everybody else, the worship of success, either in the business world or in the spiritual world, which is the same thing. Human beings are violent. Violence implies not only physical violence, there's psychological violence, which is comparison. Where there is comparison there is violence. Where there is imitation there is violence. Where there is the acceptance of authority psychologically, there is violence. Imitation, conformity, competition, all those and many other factors are the indication of violence. That's a fact, that's 'what is', and human beings have created the opposite of it, which is not to be violent - which is called non-violence. They've talked a great deal about it in India but they are equally violent. Is it possible to change violence without having its opposite? You understand my question? That is, not to imitate, not to conform, not to compare, not to seeking success. If that is possible then non-violence is unnecessary. So because we cannot or we are not willing to transform violence, we invent the non-violence and we say I will eventually become non-violent. That's a nice, comfortable, lazy, illusory idea. This is what we indulge in, but if you are really serious, deeply concerned to be totally non-violent, including anger, hate and all the rest of it, if you are deeply concerned to transform that, you've got the energy, because that energy you have wasted in conflict with violence. You follow?
So it is possible to transform 'what is' without the idea of time. Is this clear? Please, this is very important because we are going to go into something presently which is, when you are talking about death, time is involved in it. So we must really understand the nature and the structure of time, how time works. When you say, I will be, or, I must be something in the future, that involves time, because you are dissatisfied with 'what is', you condemn 'what is', you suppress 'what is', or try to argue it away and so you utilise all that energy; or you waste all that energy in this process; whereas, if you look at this violence with all the implications and not have any idea of its opposite, which is illusory, then there is a transformation. You understand this? Do it!
So time in meditation - you have to find out if time has a 'stop'. Therefore it's very important to understand the nature and the movement of time, how our brains are caught in it, our whole consciousness is filled with time - time being accumulated knowledge as experience which becomes a memory, and that memory is the storehouse from which thought begins. From the very beginning, man's very beginning, that's the process. So, one not only has to enquire into the nature of time, but also one has to find out if time has come to an end, if there is a stop to time. This has been a tremendous problem - you understand?
So then we can go to the next thing, which is: what is our life? Living and dying. What is our life? When you look at our lives, what is it? Wrong occupation, battle with each other, wars, anxiety, great pain, lack of relationship in the true sense of that word - there is relationship between two images which you have about another and another has about you. Relationship is between those two 'ideas' - between those two thoughts. So, what is our living? When you look at it very carefully and very seriously, not pretending, not trying to cover it up with words and clever cunning thought - what actually is it? We waste our life, don't we? And from birth to death it's a constant battle, constant effort, constant struggle, to be or not to be, to become something or not to become something, to establish right relationship and always trying to feel. Wars, hatreds, deep hurts - that's the content of our whole consciousness, it is our life, apart from the biological growth and decay. If you examine as we are doing now - please do it together, if you are at all serious, if you're not serious, don't bother. It's a nice day, go outside and enjoy it. But if you are serious look at your life - pleasure, sexual, other forms of pleasure, fear and sorrow. This is the content of our consciousness, with all its varieties, complex movements in this limited consciousness; and that's what we call living. With faith, with doubt, with anxiety - you follow? - a perfect confusion - mess!
And what is dying? You understand my question? Living, which we think is marvellous, and dying which is the most terrible thing to happen. And in between these two things there is love and there is suffering. We have talked at some length about fear and the necessity of being completely, totally, psychologically free from fear. We went into that. And also we talked about - together, we have talked together, not I talked and you listened, we have talked over together - pleasure, and the movement of pleasure, and the pursuit of pleasure. Pleasure is totally different from joy; pleasure can be invited, cultivated; joy can never be invited - it comes. But when it comes memory takes it over and makes it into a pleasure. We've also talked about ecstasy, which is not hysteria, which is not neurotic, but that ecstasy can only come when we understand the meaning of pleasure. And, we are asking, what is love? Because apparently that plays a great part in our life. That word 'love' is loaded, like 'god'.
So we have to investigate also what it means to love and what is the difference between pleasure, love and compassion. This has been one of the problems of human beings right through the ages, right through the world wherever human beings exist. They demand, they're wanting to love - or be loved. And when one is not loved there's all the anxiety, the fear, the anger, the jealousy - you follow? - all that creeps in. So one has to, if you are at all serious, and I hope you are because we are trying, we are concerned with the transformation of the human consciousness, completely. So one must go into this question of what is love.
Apparently human beings have reduced love to pleasure. Yes? What do you say? Yes? Pleasure, sexual - love, is also implied - love of one's country, love of a book, love of a picture. You follow? We use that word in a most extraordinary way. And also, I love my wife, or I love my husband. So we have to go into this question, not only what it means, the word 'love', the word itself, both in Sanskrit and - we'll go into it - is part of desire - the meaning of that word. We are looking at the root meaning of that word, desire. I won't go in Sanskrit, what it means. So we have to see what desire is and what love is. Is desire love? Please we are investigating, we are exploring; we are not saying it is, it is not; together we are working this out. So one has to go into what is desire; because apparently, in most of our lives desire plays an immense part. So we have to understand it. What is desire? When you desire a dress, when you desire something, what is that, the movement of it? Surely, there's first the seeing, the visual seeing, the sensory - then there is contact, the touching, the smelling the seeing - then sensation. You're following all this? Seeing, contact, sensation. Right? Then thought comes in, and thought says 'That dress will look beautiful on me' which is the structure of image. So sensation plus thought is desire and the image. You follow this? You can see this very simply if you look at yourself, this is the process we go through. You see a beautiful woman or a beautiful car, or beautiful man - whatever it is - seeing, contact, sensation then thought comes and desire, and the image. Right?
So, we are asking is love desire? Which is sensation, contact, thought, or desire plus thought, and the image, picture - is that love? Or love has nothing to do with desire, which means no picture, no imaginative projections, not based on sensation. You are following all this? So you have to find out where sensation plus thought is desire with its image. There is sensation; it is natural to have one's senses highly developed, that's healthy. To see a beautiful thing; that's part of sensation. When thought takes it over it becomes desire. Now, please follow this. Can you see a beautiful person, a thing, a lovely tree - whatever it is - sensation, and not allow desire to come into it, which is the ending of thought. I wonder if you understand all this. This is the highest form of discipline. You understand? To see, sensation, and no thought coming into it at all, and therefore no desire, no image. You've understood what I'm saying? That requires a great sense of awareness. We'll discuss that presently, later. Awareness, concentration and attention. We'll talk about it later.
So is the movement of thought love? Or, love has nothing whatsoever to do with desire. Now, one has to find this out, which means you have to give your attention, be aware of the movement of desire, movement of thought, and the natural sensation - to be aware of this whole movement. Then you'll ask, you must ask, is pleasure love? And if it is not pleasure, then what is love, or desire? Please, intellectually, logically, all this is so logically, so-called Intellectually - but the intellect is an instrument, a fragment of the totality, and by merely looking at the description intellectually you are then only looking at it partially, and therefore you don't see the whole of it. So, intellect not only must see the reason, the structure of this thing, but also know its own limitation.
So we are asking, is pleasure love? Pleasure being desire, the movement of thought, sensation and the pursuit of it. And if it is not love, then what is it? Can there be jealousy when there is love? Go on sirs. Those of you who have girls and boys and husbands and wives, and all the rest of it. Can there be love when there is attachment, when you hate, anger, when you are hurt by another, is there love? And so if none of these is love then the word is not the thing. You understand? Then the word 'love' is not the actual state, the reality of it, the truth of it. Then what is the relationship between love and compassion? You understand? The word compassion means passion for all, passion for everything living. That's the meaning of that word. But that compassion cannot exist when you are in yourself fragmented, broken up, when there is hate, and when there is suffering.
So, we have to examine what is suffering. Why is it that we suffer psychologically, not biologically, physically - that we can understand when we go into the question why human beings throughout the world carry this agony of suffering. Are you interested in all this? Not interested, that's the wrong word, are you concerned about all this? How much time are you willing to spend on all this? Or only for this morning you are concerned, for an hour, and then slip back into our old traditions, our old ways of life which have no meaning at all, and remember occasionally what has been said in this tent, in this marquee, and you say, 'By Jove, that's true, I must go back and do something about it', and forget it the next minute. Or are you really, totally, completely committed to this? It's only then you will understand very deeply what all this means, how to live a totally different kind of life.
So we are now asking why human beings suffer, psychologically, which has a great bearing on the physical suffering. If there is no suffering psychologically then it may affect your body completely, there is no psychosomatic disease there. So we must go into this question very deeply why human beings suffer. All religions - the eastern religions and the western religions - the eastern religions have a very clear definition why human beings suffer: according to them, they say, what you have done in the past you are paying for it now. It is called karma in Sanskrit. The Sanskrit word 'ka' means to do, to act. If you have not acted rightly, accurately - not according to a pattern, according to tradition, if you have acted rightly in yourself, truthfully, then there are no regrets in that action, then that action is total. This is what we are saying, not what the Hindus say. The ancient Hindus said you have many lives. In each life, unless you act rightly you are going to pay for it by next life, therefore you suffer next life. And therefore you learn from suffering how to act properly, rightly, accurately for the next life. You follow?
Here in the Christian world you have given up suffering, put suffering on the shoulders of one man, and very comfortably settled the problem. But actually you are suffering; you have got the symbol - which is rather an unfortunate symbol - you have got the symbol, and though you have said that he is suffering for us, and yet we go on suffering. So let's forget the symbol, let's forget all that and see why human beings in the world - you - suffer, go through such agonies, tears, loneliness. You understand all this? What is suffering? What is grief? And why should we suffer? Will it purify our minds - may we use that word quickly - will it cleanse our hearts because we suffer? On the contrary, it hasn't done it. So we must go into this question very deeply. What is suffering? There are many forms of it. One of them is loneliness. Right? Great sense of loneliness - loneliness being the feeling, the reality, that you are completely cut away from all relationship, from everything, completely isolated. Right? Don't you know all this? Isolated, lonely, and not knowing what to do with that loneliness which is, you run away from it, escape, and frightened, cover it up and do all kinds of things - get attached and all that. So, without understanding that loneliness, suffering is inevitable. You follow this? Please, are we meeting each other or am I talking to myself in my room?
So, that's one of the factors. Then, the factor that you like somebody, or love somebody - to use that word in quotes - you love somebody, and that somebody turns away from you and you are left - again isolated, jealous, hatred, sense of loss, frustration, guilt, all that is part of suffering. Then there is the suffering for someone whom you have lost, whom you loved dearly - again 'love' in quotes - and he is dead - son, wife, husband or whatever it is, another human being is dead, and you suffer, not only through self pity but also you're attached to that person, and you suddenly feel lost and in that moment of death there's great shock, biologically as well as psychologically. Right? And many other forms of suffering. Human beings suffer and find many, many explanations for that suffering - God is just, he knows why I am suffering, eventually he'll solve my suffering. Suffering and seeking comfort in some theory, in some law, in some belief; or, the Christian world says, have faith, and so on. So what is it that is suffering? Me. You understand? I am suffering. What is that me, what is you? The form, the name - right? The name, the form, the various characteristics - greed, envy, pain, anxiety, hope, despair, depression - a lot of accumulated ideas, all that is you. Aren't you? Which are all memories, words. So that image of yourself is suffering, or that 'you' are suffering. Now, will you please listen to it carefully.
Human beings suffer. And we have escaped from it, through reason, through logic, through explanations, through various forms of comfort, entertainment, religious as well as ordinary entertainment, every form of escape from that suffering. If you don't escape and actually without any movement going outwardly, remain completely with that suffering. Remain - you understand what I'm saying? That is, not move away from that central fact of suffering - that gives you tremendous stability. Are you understanding all this? No you don't!
Look, you suffer. See, understand that suffering is not resolved through escape, through suppression, through any form of rationalisation. Suffering is there. Be with it, completely without any movement. You've understood this now, surely. The explanation, you've understood, intellectually or verbally the explanation - but to do it is quite another matter. Now when you do it, that is, without any movement of thought, any movement of escape, any movement of suppression or rationalisation, to be with it completely, then out of that comes passion. I wonder if you understand all this. And that is compassion. Have you understood something? No. It doesn't matter. Watch, look at yourself and see how you suffer, the urge to escape from it, see the absurdity of escape, the rationalisation, seeking comfort, all that's a wastage of energy, moving away from the central fact of suffering. You understand? Remain with it. Then, that suffering undergoes a tremendous change which becomes passion. I haven't time to go into more than this, with you, that's up to you.
And also we must go into this question of death. Do you want to go into this?
Krishnamurti: Why? You know, please, all these things that we are talking about are very, very serious; it isn't something you play with, it isn't something you listen to for one day and forget and go on with your daily, useless life. This is something very, very serious, and it's only the very serious that live; not the flippant, not the casual - you know, all the rest of it. It's only a man who is deeply, profoundly concerned with all this, such a man lives. So we must go into this question of death, which is very complex. We said we must understand the question of time, apart from the chronological time of yesterday, today and tomorrow - sunrises, sunsets - divided into twenty four hours; we are not talking about that; that's necessary, that exists, and if that doesn't play a part in your life then you'll lose your bus. But we are talking of something else, psychologically. Because we are in despair, fearful, then there is always hope - hope something will take place tomorrow. So that is the movement of time.
What is the relationship of time to death? You understand. One has lived ten years, fifty years, or eighty years or a hundred years - a life that has been painful, anxious and all the rest of it, an empty life, a wasted life, and that life comes to an end, both biologically and psychologically. I'm going to go into all this. And one clings to the known and avoids the unknown - the known suffering, the known pain, the known pleasure, the known fears - one clings to all that which you call 'living'. And one is frightened to let go all that which you have to do when death comes. So there's the interval between the living and the dying, the process of time. Then, what is it that dies? Biologically we have lived so unintelligently; because biologically, physically the body has its own intelligence. I don't know if you know anything about all this, worked at it. It has its own intelligence, if you don't spoil it through taste, through gluttony, through smoke, drink, drugs and all the rest of the business that one goes through. Don't go through that, that is, through taste, habit, custom, tradition; then the body has its own intelligence. That body, organically dies, the organ dies. We know that. But also we say there is something which is me, which must continue, because after all I've collected so much experience - I want to finish that book before I die. I must be successful, give me another few more years, and so on and so on. So what is it that is 'me' - that says, I don't want to die, I must have some kind of continuity. You understand? This is our craving right through life. From the ancient days, from the Egyptians down to the present day, and before the Egyptians - the ancient Egyptians, not the modern Egypt - this has been the problem. A continuity and an ending, the desire, the immense drive to continue. My pleasure, I want it fulfilled tomorrow. When you say 'there is no tomorrow' it becomes a tremendous despair. You understand?
So, there is death. So we have to investigate together not accepting authority, because I am not your authority or your guru. To me gurus are dangerous in spiritual life. You have to find out for yourself what is it that is 'me', how it came into being, why it has taken such tremendous importance in our life, and why is it that it's so frightened of death. The 'me' has come through words, through experience, through knowledge - the 'me', which is the form, the name, all the bundle of memories, knowledge, experience, the past pleasures, pain - all that consciousness with its content is 'me'. Right? Please see it for yourself. You say that's only not me - that's only mainly memory, therefore it is a material process - but there is a 'me' which is spiritual. The Hindus and others maintain and probably some of you maintain that there is some thing spiritual in 'me'. 'Me' is the essence of that spirit. When you say the 'me' is the essence of that spirit, covered over by all kinds of darkness, like an onion with many, many layers, that essence of the highest is 'me' - that is still part of thinking. Right? When you feel that the essence is 'me' that's part of your process of thought. Somebody has put it into your mind or you have invented it yourself. I wonder if you are following all this? You may not believe it but thought has created this. But thought is a material process, because thought is knowledge, experience stored up as memory in the brain and that response to that memory is thinking. We went through all that the other day; we won't go into it. So thought is a material process Though thought can say, 'There is spirit in me', but it is a material process. When you say, 'I have faith in god', it is a material process. The faith in god, god being your projection of what you think is the most beautiful, omnipotent, all the rest of it, it is still a process of thought. So, there is nothing - please bear with me, go into it very deeply - there is nothing but the movement of thought which has created the 'me', or the essence of the spirit. It is still thought, so it is still a material process.
So, one clings to the known and one is frightened of the unknown, which is death. Right? Do you understand this? So, time is the living, a long interval, and death. We said time is a movement, movement of thought as measure, so many lives, so many years - which is all measurement. Now, can that time stop? Which means the living and the dying close together. You understand? This takes so much explanation, all this. That is, death means the ending of that which has continued. Right? See how important it is that that which continues becomes mechanical. Right? And therefore there is nothing new; thought may invent something new, like the jet, it's something new, or the Einstein theories - I won't go into all that. So, thought can invent something new but we are not talking about that invention; we are talking about: thought can invent something beyond death - but it's still the movement of thought. So we are saying death means the ending of a continuity, which is time. That which continues means time - tradition, your faith, in your beliefs, in your gods, is the movement of time.
So we are saying, to die to the things known now. You understand my question? To die to your attachments, now, which is going to take place when you die. You understand? Ah, this is really very serious, because when we die, what takes place? The organism with its brain dies, comes to an end, the brain deteriorates. The brain which contained memory in its cells, as experience and knowledge, that brain withers away. So there is ending of thought. And, can there be an ending of thought while living? You understand my question? Which is dying now, not fifty years later - which doesn't mean you commit suicide, don't jump over the bridge. Which means dying to your pleasure. Of course you will die to your pain, that's very easy, that's what one want to do, but one wants to cling to the pleasure, to the picture that you have created about pleasure and the pursuit of it. That, when the brain decays is going to end. You understand what I am talking? So, to die instantly to attachment, to jealousy to fear - die. That's one problem. Therefore when there is such death there is then non-continuity which means the ending of time, therefore a totally different dimension of consciousness. I haven't time to go into all that. Totally different kind of consciousness, which is not the consciousness with all its content which is 'me', but a totally different kind, a dimension.
Now, I don't die now. One doesn't die because one says, 'I must have a little more time, please - give me a little more time - I want to enjoy my life. I've got a new car, a new wife, a new pleasure, a new job, please don't let me die immediately'. So what happens to that man or woman - please this is important for you to understand all this - what happens to that man or woman who says, 'I'm satisfied with things as they are; I've got my property, I've got a good wife, a husband, money in the bank, and to hell with everything else!' What happens to that man when he dies? You understand my question? There are two types of beings in the world; the one who dies to everything known - the known is the structure of thought put together as the 'me' - the attachments, the fears, the loneliness, the despair and therefore out of despair, hope - all that he dies to - to all that there is instant ending. Ending of sorrow is the beginning of compassion. You think about it. Don't think about it, do it! Now what happens to the man who doesn't do all this? He is lazy, indifferent, becomes serious about something which is trivial, or he thinks it is very important to follow a guru - and all that silly stuff - what happens to that man, or woman? You understand my question? Have you understood my question?
There are two types of human beings: the one who is dying every minute of the day, to everything he has gathered, therefore he is never gathering anything. You understand? Psychologically he is never gathering anything, therefore there is no 'me' at all, all the time. And there is the other man, what happens to him? So what is the other man? The other man is the human being or the woman, the human being like every other human being in the world. He has lived in sorrow, in despair, in agony, tears, like the rest of the human beings. So there is this stream of sorrow, the stream, the river of agony, the river of pleasure, the river of violence, all that, he is in that stream, he has always been in that stream. Right? It's only the man who steps out of the stream who is different; otherwise he is like the rest. I know this is a sad picture - you understand? - this is really a great sorrow to see this happening. Therefore, the man who sees this happening is compassionate. Therefore, his responsibility is to convey all this. You understand what I am saying?
So, immortality is not 'me' surviving eternally - the Angel Gabriel blows the horn - but there is immortality that is beyond death, when time has come to an end. You understand? Time as a movement of thought and measure, which is our consciousness. When that consciousness empties itself completely then there is the state that is totally different. The emptying of this consciousness with its content is part of meditation, which we will discuss tomorrow.