We have been talking about the art of listening and the art of seeing. We said the art of listening implies that you participate, share in what is being said. And you cannot share what is being said if your mind, if your thoughts are wandering all over the place or you are comparing what is being said to what already you know or translate what is being said to see if it conforms to what is said, and that is not the art of listening. We went into that sufficiently in the first talk. And also we talked about the art of seeing, the last time that we met here. That to observe, whether it be a tree, a mountain or hear a song or see the flutter of a leaf in the wind, one must observe without any screen between you and the thing you observe; otherwise you do not see at all. We talked about that also at some length. And also there is another art, which is the art of learning. The art of listening, the art of seeing and the art of learning.

For most of us, learning implies committing to memory a technology, a language, a method and so on. That is, acquiring knowledge and storing it up in the brain as memory and using that memory skilfully when the occasion demands. That is, the cultivation of memory for most of us becomes tremendously important. And learning has also another meaning: not only the acquisition of knowledge and acting according to that knowledge, which is knowledge being always the past and acting according to the past whether it be a tradition, a memory or an experience which one had stored up as information, as a linguistic acquisition, memory and so on, with which we are all quite familiar. There is another kind of learning which has nothing whatsoever to do with storing of knowledge. The storing of knowledge becomes, in action, mechanical. And where there is learning, that is the constant movement of learning and not storing up as memory is the art of learning. I do not know if it is possible to convey this to you in a language, but during the talk we'll go into it - the art of learning. When we have learnt something, it is stored up and according to that memory, we act: how to ride a bicycle, drive a car and so on, so on, so on. And that's all a mechanical process.

And learning has also a different significance. That is, coming to a challenge with a mind that is curious, alert, aware and wanting to understand not only the challenge but the response. That is, the mind is in a state of enquiry, in a state of exploration and never being satisfied by mere knowledge. I think we'll understand each other as we go along. And I think it is important to understand this a little bit at the beginning, even intellectually, because degeneracy in this country is becoming quite apparent and destroying people. And one of the factors of this degeneracy is the activity and the mechanical way of living in the field of knowledge. Always being told what to do, always referring to a past experience, always looking to somebody to guide it, so that we are never in the act of learning; but always storing up what other people have said and acting according to that or just repeating the theory and not actually living.

We want to talk this evening about several things: about death and the meaning of it, the immense sorrow, personal as well as the collective, and the essential freedom of passion. I hope that we are going together into these questions. Going together, taking a journey together implies that we must walk at the same speed, with the same intention, with the same intensity, with the same energy; otherwise we can't keep up with each other. And this talk, as well as the other talks, is not merely an interpretation of an idea, but rather the investigation, the enquiry together into this problem of suffering, passion and death. We are so accustomed to sorrow, to suffering. We are talking about psychological, inward suffering, which becomes distorted if the physical suffering is not properly understood, has not its proper place. So, we are talking over together as two people who are serious, who intend to understand this great problem of human suffering and why human beings have not passion; they have lust, which is entirely different from passion. Because without passion you cannot create and creation is not merely a repetition or a conformity to a pattern. Creation implies an understanding, not intellectually but deeply have an insight into this whole question of not only suffering but the feeling of great intensity. Because if you are merely functioning mechanically, as most people do, from memory to action and skill, this quality of passion is never there. And in the very enquiring into this question, one must go into the issue of suffering because they are two, both suffering and passion are related, both linguistically and actually.

Now, we are going to share this together, which means we are going to learn, not hear me, the speaker, learn it by heart, agree or disagree and then live or not live according to those ideas. Together we are going to find out for ourselves what is the meaning of suffering; if there is an end to suffering, not theoretically, but actually. And what takes place when there is this freedom from suffering? What happens? Bearing in mind all the time that description is not the described. Right? I can describe a tree, a mountain, a river or the beauty of a blue sea, but the actual sea, the actual tree is not the word, is not the description. So, do not let us get caught up in words; though words are necessary to communicate, one must go beyond the words to grasp the significance or have the insight. When you have the insight, learning becomes something entirely different. It is no longer the repetition of a memory. I hope you all understand.

I do not know if you have not observed how human beings suffer right throughout the world. That's one of the common factors of our human existence. Young, old and the dying, this anxiety, the grief, the acquaintance with sorrow and so on. And man, which is you and I, we have tried to find the cause of it. We have tried to escape from it, we have tried to rationalise it, we have given so many reasons, explanations for this sorrow. And apparently our minds are never free from it. If one is at all conscious, aware of oneself, of one's environment, of one's society in which one lives, the culture in which we have been brought up, of which we are, the part of which we are - if you are aware of all that, not only as a community but as a nation, as a group of people, one must inevitably ask if there is an end to sorrow? Can man be ever free from sorrow, is that possible? Because sorrow, like fear, is a tremendous burden. It distorts our thinking. It makes us bitter, anxious, frightened. And if you observe yourself, you will see how being in sorrow for various reasons, whether it's the death of a friend or a son or a wife or a husband or somebody on whom you depended. All this, the sorrow of great loneliness, if one has observed it and not accepting it as inevitable, which most of us do, one has to find out not merely verbally, intellectually, but deeply, inwardly, profoundly if there is an ending and has sorrow any meaning at all. Most of us think it has a meaning, a purpose and that will make us more, God knows what, more enlightened, that we must go through this area of sorrow. Now if one is aware, conscious, knows that one suffers, and why has one, a human being, put up with it? Why are we burdened everlastingly from it? No man seems to have resolved it. Except perhaps some mystical entity. And not being able to resolve it, we translate it as a path or a period through which we must go through in order to be more wise, more capable, more enlightened. Or we worship a figure who represents sorrow. I do not know if you have not noticed all this in yourself and in others. What we are asking is not only the cause of it, but also the ending of it. One can find quite comparatively easily the cause. Though one can find the cause apparently sorrow goes on. I can tell you or another can tell you the cause of sorrow is your loneliness, is that you are attached to somebody and when that somebody goes away or dies or turns away from you, there is anger, bitterness, anxiety, fear, sorrow. One knows the cause, it doesn't need great analysis. And yet sorrow goes on. So is it worthwhile, is it necessary to spend time and energy in the analysis of finding out the cause? You understand my question? Are we meeting each other?

You suffer, don't you? Not from toothache, that you can deal with, but psychologically, inwardly: suffer for another, suffer for the stupidity of mankind, suffer for the cruelty of people, the degeneracy, the feeling of utter loneliness, of sorrow, the ignorance of human beings, not in the technological world but in the real sense of that word, to be ignorant, to be ignorant of oneself. All that awakens in one a great sense of sorrow, sadness, a grief, if one is at all sensitive. And there is the sorrow of losing somebody, death. You shed tears and you feel great loss, emptiness, a sense of loneliness. These are all the various causes of sorrow. So analysis into the cause is inaction, does not produce action. Right? Are we clear about this? Are we meeting each other? Please tell me, I can go into it more.

Analysis implies several things, which we talked about the other evening, not only the analyser and the analysed, the division, the enormous amount of time spent in trying to find out the cause and therefore caught in time and therefore cause is the very essence of time. And knowing all the causes, there is never one cause, there are multiple causes, and to search out for the multiple causes does not resolve the problem of suffering. If one sees the truth of that, have an insight that the discovery of the cause of suffering is not the ending of suffering, then we can proceed to find out whether it is possible to end sorrow. Right? Are we meeting each other? Look, all right. I suffer. I'm taking this as an example. I suffer for various reasons; I am not very interested in the cause of that suffering. The actual fact is I am suffering - my son, my wife, my brother, everything is taken away from me and I am left lonely, isolated, having no relationship with another, bound to my own sorrow. And knowing that the cause of it has no value, that's one discovery I have made, discovery, not I have been told, therefore it is first-hand, I have discovered for myself that the mere search for the cause of sorrow is not the ending of sorrow. It's, on the contrary, it is time-binding, away from the fact of sorrow. And I see my mind wants to escape from it because I can't understand it, what is involved, what is the significance, what is the meaning of it. So, it wants to escape from it. Don't you want to escape from it? All your gods, your entertainments, your rituals, your reading the Gita, the Upanishads, whatever that book you call sacred, which is not sacred at all but just printed word which you make sacred. And so you escape from it, trying to find comfort in something, comfort in an idea, in a picture, in a concept, in some hope, escape, a move away from the fact of 'what is'. And the very moving away from 'what is', is the beginning of sorrow. You understand this? So, I see that. So it's not a determination not to escape, but the fact that escape does not solve the problem of sorrow. On the contrary, escape becomes a neurotic activity. So the mind having an insight into escape and the futility of escape, comes back to the fact of suffering. Therefore there is no escape. You are following? It's not that I have determined not to escape, but I see the futility of escape.

Then I see also that any form of overcoming sorrow is still another waste of energy. Are you following all this? So, my mind sees the waste of energy in the search of cause of sorrow, in all the multiple escapes the mind, thought has invented and there are thousand escapes, subtle forms and seeing that, seeing the futility, the uselessness because you can't escape from something that is always there, you can cover it up, you can run away from it, you can hide it, but it's there. And so the mind says 'All right, I won't'. Naturally there is no escape so there is no overcoming it, there is no rationalising it, which are all forms of escapes. Right? Are we meeting each other? Please do this. Not just merely listen to the speaker, what he is saying, but listen to the words, find out the meaning of it, whether it has significance and do it as you are sitting there.

Then what has my mind left? There is the fact of sorrow, not only the sorrow, personal sorrow but also this vast sorrow of human beings, the collective sorrow, as there is collective degeneracy which this country is an expert at - I am not comparing this country with other countries; I am just stating the fact of this country non-comparatively; don't say aren't the other countries degenerate; of course they are, but we are talking about India, you. So, when you say aren't other countries degenerate too, you are merely escaping and avoiding the fact that you are. It's like saying to a politician 'Aren't you corrupt', he says 'We are not as corrupt as the other country'. (laughter). Yes, you laugh. That very laughter indicates that you are escaping from the fact that you are not facing corruption in your life.

So, what has happened? My mind has had a tremendous shock, which is suffering, and it is trying to escape from it, run away from it, avoid it. And the escape, the avoidance, the flight away from it, is the wasting of energy. And the mind needs energy, vitality to understand the suffering. Are we doing this? It's no good my talking if you are not doing it. This is a serious thing, not just a thing that you play with. So, what takes place? There is no escape, there is no rationalisation, I don't say it is my karma, but that doesn't solve the fact. So, no escape of any kind, verbally or theoretically or actually. So, what have you left? Is the sorrow that one feels, is there an entity that is wanting to resolve that sorrow? You understand? Look, I am not escaping at all now, I have finished all escapes. And is there a movement in me, a thought that says 'I must go beyond it. I can't tolerate this, I must go beyond it, I must end it'? That means the entity is different from sorrow. Right? Have you understood? And is the entity different from sorrow or the entity is sorrow? Right? Therefore, when the entity is the sorrow, there is no conflict about it, therefore there is no escape - it is. And then what takes place? You've understood my questions? Do please, it's fun. It is tremendously important for you to understand this. I wish I could exchange it all with you, but you can't unfortunately. What takes place when there is no escape, physically, psychologically, trying to find out a cause, no avoidance of it, and seeing that the very entity who is attempting to understand sorrow is sorrow, then what takes place? Don't learn this by heart. Then it'll be another chapter of your second-hand life. What takes place when all movement of thought which tries to escape from the fact of this ache, this sense of anxiety, this great acquaintance with grief, without any escape, for that reality, then what comes out of that? You know, the word 'passion' is different from lust. Lust is sensuous, excitement, having great desire, pleasure, sexual or other forms of deep enjoyment through sensory perception, the compulsory eating, all that is involved in that word 'lust'. The word 'passion' has its root in suffering.

So, when sorrow is there without any escape whatsoever by thought, because thought has produced this sorrow - do you understand? I have lost my son and it's partly self-pity, partly I have put all my hope and all that in him and he is gone and thought then says 'I am lonely, I have put everything in that boy and now he is gone' or that girl. In India you don't care for girls, do you?, you care for boys - I forgot. So passion comes out of this sorrow. And that passion has no cause. That's the beauty of that. No cause. It is not personal. It is not personal because sorrow is not only limited to a person but also there is this great sorrow of humanity. The great sorrow of humanity is totally impersonal. I can only understand the great sorrow of humanity if I have the passion that comes out of understanding or deeply going into this question of sorrow. Then passion is not personal. And without that passion there is no creation. You may paint pictures, you may write poems, you may do all kinds of skilful things with your hand or with your mind, but without that passion which comes out of suffering, there is no creation.

In the same way, we are going together into this great problem of death because you will not understand if there is no passion. You are following all this? If you are frightened, you won't understand it. Passion is free of fear and pleasure. Pleasure is the continuance or the sustenance or nourished by desire which is the process or the movement of thought as pleasure and fear. But passion has nothing whatsoever to do with pleasure, and therefore no fear. And it's only such a mind that says, 'I want to find out'. Find out what it means to die, why humanity has never solved this problem. The ancient people, the ancient cultures considered death as a - life as a way of living for death. Death was much more important than living and so on, so on. There are various forms which we needn't go into now because time is limited. Man has tried to avoid in every way this immense mystery called death. You have in this country comforting belief of reincarnation. You have been brought up in it, that's your tradition, and the whole of Asia probably believes in that tradition because at one time India exploded over the whole of Asia. Not now, thank God, at one time, long ago, as Greece exploded over the whole of Europe. And the mind knowing that there is death either through accident, disease, old age and so on, death is inevitable, and knowing it because you see it all about, you can't avoid it, you take comfort in a belief. And that belief is, that you will be born next life under better conditions, more money, better house, if you do the right thing now - and you don't do the right thing now anyhow. So your belief has no validity at all, it's just an idea and you play around with that. But there is the fact that there is death.

Now, how do you meet it? What is death? Have you ever given thought to all this or the first time that you are listening to all this? Or you are full of knowledge of what other people have said about death. And if you want to find out, you have to put aside all the things that people have said, from the Upanishads down to the next guru, all your comfort, your fear to find out. You understand, sirs? For that you must have passion to find out.

What is it to die and who is dying? The body, the organism with its brain, which is such a marvellous instrument, both the organism and that extraordinary brain is going to die, come to an end, stop breathing, through pain, through a life that has been absurd, cruel, diseased, the body has never been looked after properly, cared for, because the body has its own intelligence. And that inevitably that organism by constant use with all the shocks and travail and conflicts and despair, and the whole thing, that organism comes to an end. But we are attached, we are attached to the family, to the wife, to the husband, to children, to jobs, to all the knowledge that one has acquired, experiences, skills, all that comes to an end. And is there - please listen, it's your life - is there something permanent in all this which will continue? You understand my question? Is there in you something permanent, something that must perfect itself through time, which is incarnate, which means take form next life. The word 'incarnate' comes from carnal, that is taking flesh. Is there something in you that goes on till you reach Brahmin, God knows what else! Is there such a thing? Please, I know, what people have said. You understand? Your books, your religion, everything says, but as we said the other day, you must question everything to find out. So is there anything permanent in you? Or there is nothing permanent - permanent being everlasting, enduring, enduring beyond death. If there is nothing permanent, why is the mind then attached to everything? Attached to the form, to the name, to the bank account, to your wife, to your children, to your furniture, to your books, to all your customs, traditions, to your petty little gods - those gods which you have invented and worshipped - all that is your consciousness. And the content of that consciousness is various forms of your attachments, recognitions, experiences and so on. Now, is there in that consciousness something real, permanent? You have to find out, not agree or disagree. You have to give your life to find out, as you give your life for money. You know, I do not know if you have not noticed, you are interested in sex, money and religion at the end. Oh, you people! And you are supposed to be religious people because you happen to read some silly book called Gita.

So, is there anything permanent? Or is everything in your consciousness put together by thought? Your Atman, your super consciousness, your etc., etc., all that is the movement of thought. Right? You cannot possibly dispute that. Your attachment to your money, to your tradition, to your food, everything, is there in the content of your consciousness. In that consciousness is there anything permanent, or every movement is thought? So thought is a material process because thought is the response of memory stored up in the brain, therefore it is material. It can invent a god, a super atman, super this and that but it is still material. I wonder if you understand all this. Therefore, can you die to your attachments, which you are inevitably going to do when you die? You can't take it with you; perhaps you might like to keep it till the last minute. As the rich man says 'Let me keep it till the last minute'! But can you die to everything that you have collected, thought has collected, to your gods, to your tradition, to your ways, everything? Have you ever tried? Have you ever said, 'I know what this means, I'll meet death today' - today in the sense I have pushed away death far away because I am frightened of it, now I want to find out if I can bring it very close, be intimate with it. That means dying to all my attachments, dying to all the things that I think and I have put together. Then what happens? You understand the question?

Then what is immortality? If there is nothing permanent, the 'me' is not permanent, it's just a series of structural words, feelings put together, held together by thought and that has no reality except in words, in attachments. So, is there immortality? When I meet death, when I have abandoned all attachment, when the mind has completely let go everything. Are you doing it now? Or you're just listening to words? Then you will find, if you have gone deeply so far that there is - no, I won't tell you because you are so copybook minded, but we'll approach it differently.

What happens if you don't invite death, not commit suicide, if you don't invite death, what happens? You understand my question? There is a man who says all right, I want to find out what it means to die; I know the physical organism dies, the form, the name and that's inevitable and psychologically there is no tomorrow, there is only tomorrow when there is attachment and dependency, and being free, therefore there is no tomorrow. When there is death, there is no tomorrow. And what happens to those who do not enter into that area where death has no meaning anymore? What happens to the vast majority of people? Are you following all this? Because you are the vast majority of people. What happens to the vast majority of people who are attached, frightened, who cling to their husbands because they are frightened of their loneliness or their wives, who think there is a permanent reality because they have, traditionally it has been accepted, and you follow in that rut, what happens to all that vast majority of people? Have you ever thought about it; which is yourself. That is, sir, there is a vast stream of humanity caught in this; in this confusion of possession, recognition, attachment, pain, suffering, endless conflict, they are caught in this stream. And that stream is the collective stream. The collective culture of that stream, the collective literature, the collective painting, all that is in that stream. What happens? You understand sir, my question? What happens to you if you don't step out of that stream? Have you asked yourself what happens to you if you have never faced the reality of death - not at the end when you are unconscious or grasping with breath and disease, not at that moment, while living, fully alive, active, not asleep, what will happen to you if you do not step out of that stream? You will go on, won't you, in that stream, caught in that stream? That's the reality. Right? That's a fact. If you face that fact that you are caught in it, trapped in it, then you will do something. But if you say, 'Well, all humanity is caught in it, let me also be in it, it's too much bother, it needs a great deal of energy, I have no energy except to earn money and sex', therefore you never step out of that stream and the stream goes on. And therein lies enormous sorrow, with it passion, which is compassion. You understand? You understand, sir? If you have a son whom you love - love means care, give your heart to your son, feel for him - and you understand the meaning of death and are stepping out of it, what do you feel for your son? Not emotions, not sentimentality. Then you work for it, you say look, for God's sake, look what you are doing. Passion comes with love.

Now, when you come to this, what is eternity? What is immortality? That is, a state of mind which has no death at all. That's what it means - immortality. Immortality which is no death. You understand what I am talking, no death? What is that state of mind that has no death? Not personal death, not my personal becoming immortal, that's nonsense because you are merely a set of words, ideas, ambitions, greed, trickery, chicanery, corruption and that can't become immortal. Even the good that you have is part of that, the opposite of the bad and so on; all that is within the area of knowledge. But a mind that knows this sense of complete death of the 'me', what is there? And to find that out, not from books, not from the speaker, from anybody, you have to understand this whole problem, live it, what it means, what is involved in sorrow, love, passion and death. Right, sir.

Tomorrow evening we'll talk about meditation. And give your twenty-four hours from now till that time, to find out for yourself whether you are attached, whether you have motives, whether you can free yourself from attachments, which doesn't mean that you are detached. When you understand attachment, out of that depth of insight, the truth of being free, out of that comes a flowering of goodness. So we'll talk about it tomorrow. And you have to give your passion to that too.

Yes, sir? The gentleman wants to ask a question.

Questioner: Is suffering necessary to be passionate?

K: Is suffering necessary to be passionate? I thought I explained. The fact is, you suffer. That's the only fact. And you know nothing about passion, how can you, unless you are free of suffering? Right? So, don't say will suffering help me to become passionate. It'll help you to become lustful, not passionate. You understand this? Sir, look, you want to get something, you want to be rewarded, you want to find a compensation for suffering. Say if I suffer, if I get through that I hope to have passion. You understand, sir? So, to achieve passion, you say, 'Well, I'll go through suffering'. But you can't buy passion so cheaply. Right, sir.

Q: Can’t you have passion out of joy?

K: Can't you have passion out of joy? Have you listened to that question? Can't you have passion out of joy? Do you know what joy is?

Q: I hope I do.

K: He hopes he does. Do you know when you are joyful? Do listen, sir. Find out what I am asking, sir. I'm being polite. I'm not being impertinent or impatient. But you know what joy is? You say, 'Yes'. And can you be conscious of your joy?

Q: Not clear.

K: Sir, I have asked a question, please. Can you be conscious, are you conscious when you say 'I am joyful'?

Q: There is a state of mind with which you can commune.

K: Ah! You see, now we are back into the old trick - there is a state of consciousness with which I can commune. This is a good old pattern. There is a consciousness which is joyous, blissful and I can commune with it. So that consciousness which is joyful, blissful, is separate from me. So.

Q: No, I didn’t say that. It is part of myself.

K: Therefore you cannot commune with something which is part of yourself. It is there. Sir, I don't think we understand each other. Sir, do you know when you are happy? Sir, sir, sir, please, don't, you haven't even understood what I have said. Forgive me, sir. I am asking when you know you are joyous, is it joy or joy is something that comes without your knowing it. You can know pleasure.

Q: Pleasure is for the ordinary man.

K: Ah! Pleasure is for the ordinary man. I am different.

Q: That is lust. That is lust which you spoke of. Pleasure is a kind of dignified lust.

K: So, I said sir, you have not answered my question, sir. Pleasure, you can know and cultivate it. You can spend endless days in the cultivation of pleasure.

Q: It’s not like that.

K: Sir, I am telling you, sir.

Q: Pleasure is very easily available, you need not cultivate it. Joy you can cultivate.

K: You can cultivate pleasure. When you cultivate joy, it ceases to be joy, it becomes pleasure. Don't agree with me, sir or deny what I am saying. Examine it. A joy - I am walking along in the wood or walking in the street or looking at a sunset and suddenly there is a sense of great joy, uninvited. I don't know how it comes. It is there suddenly. Just listen to it. Just listen. Please listen. It is there. It comes, unexpectedly, uninvited, something that I haven't even thought about it. It is there. Then that moment or that second is registered in the brain as memory.

Q: Not so, sir.

K: Let me finish, sir. Please. Have the goodness to listen to what I have to say.

Q: It’s not clear.

K: You do not disturb me, sir. But you are not listening to what the speaker has to say. Sir, don't you know this? All this happens often to you? Some uninvited moment of joy comes, a delight. Sir, I'm not asking you sir, I am not asking you to agree or disagree. Doesn't it often happen to you, suddenly a delight and every experience, every impact, every incident is registered in the brain? That's a fact. Then that incident and the pursuit of that incident by thought becomes pleasure. There was a joy, uninvited, unexpected, it came because I was not thinking about myself, I was not worried, I have no plan, I wasn't bothered by my wife, husband, property, just a moment of complete 'non-me'. At that moment there is that extraordinary flame called joy, ecstasy. That is registered in the mind as memory, the brain, and the pursuit of that incident through memory is pleasure. You have understood? Now, the relationship between pleasure and joy is as far, wide and not related to each other at all because the one happens, the other you can cultivate. You cannot cultivate joy, you can cultivate pleasure. Finito.

Q: (Inaudible)

K: What, sir?

Q: Can you cultivate goodness?

K: Can you cultivate goodness. What is goodness? What does it mean to be good? Listen to it, please, just listen to it, don't agree or disagree, just listen. What does it mean to be good? Cultivation implies time, doesn't it? You understand, sir? I will cultivate what I consider goodness. Right, sir? That means time - like a plant you cultivate a plant, watering it, looking after it and so on so that it gradually grows to its excellence. So is goodness something of time, something dictated by the environment, by the society, by the culture in which you live? Find out that first: if goodness is something with a motive, influenced by environment, by something that you have to do and so on or it is something out of time, not cultivable. If I am vain, I can cultivate humility. You understand? Because I say, by Jove, that is a nice thing to cultivate, but I am vain. But the cultivation of humility is still part of vanity. You understand? So I can cultivate something which I think is profitable, which I think is worthwhile. But is goodness something that can be bought, sold, cultivated? Is it a matter of time or something that I am totally unconscious of? You understand? When I am good, there is no me to be good and therefore there is no me to cultivate the beauty and the flower of goodness. Right, sir.

Q: (Inaudible)

K: No sir, forgive me, I said that before, I might not have mentioned it now, I said it before. Please listen, sir. This country faces starvation, faces inflation, lack of food, poverty, the degeneracy of poverty. It is there. And to solve that problem, all humanity must join together, all mankind must come together. You understand, sir? You cannot solve this problem by yourself. Your problem is the world problem because you are the world and the world is you. But if you say India first, America first, Russia first, with all their plans, with all their power, position, so divide, keep dividing, dividing, dividing, you will not solve this problem of poverty at all. This problem of human physical suffering can only be solved by the unity of mankind. You understand, sir? You don't want that; you are proud to be Indians and the politicians exploit you, keep you there. We don't want to solve our human problems. That requires energy, that requires passion, that requires intensity. You follow, sir? Do you think a politician would be elected if he said 'Forget your country, we are one human being, let's all work together, let's all co-operate together to solve this problem'? No, sirs, you have neither the energy to do that nor the energy to face yourself nor the passion to go into all this. And we get caught in a trap of slogans. Right, sir?

Q: What will personal freedom do or act upon the collective suffering? Will personal freedom affect the collective suffering?

K: What personal freedom will do - this will be the last question because it is nearly seven o'clock. What will personal freedom do or act upon the collective suffering? What will personal freedom - will personal freedom affect the collective suffering? That's the question. If I may very simply point out, find out if you are personally free first, not what will happen if I do that. Right, sirs.