It all looks so formidable, doesn't it? Just relax and let us talk about things. I think we should talk over together - I mean together - many things. Unfortunately we were not able to come earlier because of other events, and I am sorry to have kept you waiting here. This is not a lecture. A lecture is meant to give information or direct on a particular subject. So this is not a lecture, this is a conversation between you and the speaker. Both of us are going to explore together several problems that we have. The speaker may put it into words, but you have to also share, or investigate together, not only the meaning of the words, as we are speaking in English, but also the meaning of the word, the significance of the word, the content of the whole word so that there is a direct communication between us. I hope this is clear. This is not a lecture or a sermon, or a guru talking to his silly disciples. So together we are going to first think together, see what we are examining together and go as far as possible into what we are investigating, so that we both of us understand the meaning and the significance in our daily life what we are investigating. I hope this is clear, that we are together investigating, having a conversation, a dialogue. Right?

First of all we should look together why human beings who have lived on this earth for millions of years - and recently the scientists, the biologists and the archaeologists, are saying we have lived on this earth as human beings for the last 50,000 years or more - why we have not been able to find, specially in modern days, security, both psychological, inward security and outward security. That is one of the problems that not only this country but every country in the world is facing at the present time. This clear? Security; why socially, economically and physically we have not been able to find complete security for all human beings, not just for a few, not for the rich, not for those who live in a small commune or a committee, but ask ourselves why we have not found physical security. First, physical. There is murder going on of the most savage kind, terrorists, kidnapping, destroying, and the ultimately the ultimate violence is war. War is an organized murder that is tolerated, considered highly respectable, blessed by religions, and so on. You know all this perhaps, some of you. So we are asking why is it, however civilized we are, however cultured, we are still fighting, killing each other, why there is not security, and is it possible to have to begin with psychological security, inward security. Then that inward security will express itself outwardly. That is, if we are not inwardly, psychologically, subjectively, completely secure then whatever we do externally will also be insecure. I think this is clear.

So, we ought first to enquire, if we may, why inwardly, inside the skin, subjectively, psychologically, man has not found security at all. He has sought security in god, which is an idea invented by thought. Right? Am I shocking you - I hope I am. God is invented by thought, because we human beings are frightened, and so we want something on which we can rely, hold on to, look to somebody who will help us, and so we invent various illusions. I hope one is you are following all this. One invents various ways of seeking comfort, security. And all those ways, as one has observed, have utterly failed. You may have your guru in whom you have faith, and hope he will give you some kind of inward security - but even those gurus are failing. Right? You are sure of all this? You are investigating. I am not the speaker is not telling you what is right or what is wrong, but together we are going to find out what is true, what is right.

So, can there be inward security first, and then that security will inevitably create a society that will be orderly, that will give security for all human beings, not only for the rich and the well-to-do, but for the very, very, very poor. Right? Because unless you are secure inwardly, outward expression of that insecurity is the present state of society. That is clear? This is all logical, reasonable, sane, not something fanciful. So we must ask why haven't we inward security? What is it that is preventing us? Right? Why? If the speaker asks you that question - why - what would be your answer? Why each of us are not secure inwardly. Why are we so frightened? Why are we so subject to some fanciful concepts? If one examines the cause of this uncertainty, insecurity, is it - please I am questioning it, please also you question it - is it because each one of us is so self-centred? Each one of us is concerned with himself, concerned with his own fulfilment, concerned with his own success, concerned with his own advancement, achievement, his own pleasures, his own sorrows. That is, each one of us has this great self-interest. Would that be correct? That is one of the reasons. Would you agree to that? Self-interest. What does that self-interest mean? Please - what does self-interest imply? Does it not imply a separate, divided, narrow limited activity? Right? When I am concerned about myself from morning till night, and even in my sleep, it becomes a very small affair, doesn't it? Even one's meditation, if you are concerned with achieving something or other, it is a very small affair. No? It is a very limited activity. It is like keeping something to yourself, all the time worried, anxious, fearful, depressed; you know it all becomes such a petty little affair, doesn't it? No? Don't agree, because it is very easy to agree, verbally, but to act actively be concerned whether it is possible to live in this world with all the corruption, with all the bestiality of it, the brutality, the cruelty of all that, is it possible to live in this world without self-interest?

Have you ever asked that question? Or is it something that we very carefully avoid? One may be married, children, family, and that is our concern. We may pray, do some puja every morning. That is also a sort of self-concern, no? Also self-concern implies a separate, divided, fragmentary activity - right? - which then brings about social division - the upper, the lower, middle class, and the lowest - this division, doesn't it? When you are concerned with yourself it becomes a dividing force in the world, which is nationalism, racial division, linguistic division, religious division - the Sikhs, the Hindus, the Muslim, the Buddhists, the Christians, you know, fragmented, following one guru after another. Right? Haven't you noticed all this? Which is, the Arab and the Jew killing each other. Nationalities are dividing people. Right? And we hope to find security in nationalism, being India, France and so on, America and Russia. So, this self-interest expresses itself in many subtle ways. So one has to be aware of all that, if you are interested, if you are serious and not carry on as we do day after day. If one is seriously concerned with life, with all the things that are happening, all the terrible things that are happening, then one must ask very deeply, fundamental questions, not be satisfied with superficial questions and superficial answers. Can one live in this world, in the modern world without belonging to any group, to any nationality, to any religion, following no guru?

Can you do all this? Or is it all a superficial talk, and when you leave this hall you will follow your old ways. What is the point of all this then? Listening to something that is true, that is not invented by a speaker, but these are facts, daily facts of our life: our cruelty, our self-concern, our deep apparently abiding selfishness, and that is what is destroying the world. The Americans are concerned with America, and the Americans as separate human beings are concerned with themselves, as here, and so on. So one begins to understand not verbally but very deeply that where there is division there must be conflict. Where there is division nationally there must be conflict: the Muslim and the Hindu, the Pakistanis and the - you know all the rest of that rubbish that is going on. And when you face facts, the realities, not just some imaginative romantic concepts but just face daily facts, then you are confronted with a challenge that demands an answer, a challenge that you must accept and understand it and act. So there is only security, not in self-centredness and self-interest, but in seeing the fact and understanding the fact and acting. That is intelligence. And in that intelligence there is security, not in some romantic concepts, sentimentality and all that superficial stuff.

So, we also ought to ask why is there so much corruption in the world? I know this is a rather tricky subject. Why is there so much corruption in the world? What is corruption? The word, the etymological meaning of that word, from Latin and Greek and Italian comes which means to break up. I won't go into all that. What is the root of corruption? Where does corruption begin? Passing money under the table, is that corruption? Bribing the porter to have your entrance into a big man? What is corruption, which is so prevalent, more so in this country - pulling wires for your friends, for your nephews, for your sons - is that corruption? Please, think about, look at it. Surely that is a very, very superficial form of corruption. But it is a deeper cause, a far deeper cause, this terrible corruption that is going on. Is it corruption when you follow a leader? Go on, answer this question, sirs. When you follow your guru, is that not corruption - in the name of truth, in the name of blah, blah and all that stuff - when you follow somebody or when you follow some ideal, is that not also corruption? Are you surprised at these questions? Or you take it - you know. We are trying to find out together what is the cause of all this? Is not corruption when each one of us is ambitious, envious, when each one is concerned with his own fulfilment, when he wants his own particular way, when human beings take a stand about something? You understand all this? I believe, and you take a position in that. Another says, 'I also believe quite the opposite'. Right? Is that not also corruption? You see, you can't

So, does not corruption start when each one of us is not only concerned with himself but also deeply attached to some superstitious, ideological, imaginative belief? No? Isn't that the beginning of corruption? The Catholic believes very strongly in something - right? - in some concept, in some belief, in some faith, and you take another stand in some faith, in some belief, in some god, and you are at war with each other - not actually at war, but you kind of separate yourself from that silliness, as though your silliness was totally different. Haven't you noticed all this? Doesn't corruption begin there? Doesn't corruption begin where there is essentially, deeply, self-interest?

Skip it, sir. Leave it sir, will you. Hey, leave it, sir. He doesn't listen, and you don't listen either! (Laughter)

Questioner: It is corruption, sir.

Krishnamurti: Isn't it. (Laughter) That is a perfect example, sir. He doesn't listen and you don't listen. (Laughs) You know, one must learn the art of listening. We get used to the voice of your wife or your husband, you never listen to each other, do you? You get used to it. She might be telling you something real but you have already understood it, and so we never actually listen to somebody, and I am sure that is what is going on here, quite sure. I can take a bet on it! That you really are not listening. And that's the pity of it because if you really listened, not only to the words, but to capture the significance of the word. That is to listen, not translate what you are hearing to confirm or to contradict your ideas, but to find out what the other fellow is saying.

When you tell a story to a child, if you have ever done, he is so extraordinarily attentive. He is thrilled by the story, he wants you to keep going because the child is curious, eager, wanting to find out what the story is about. Therefore he is paying attention to it. Right? But apparently we don't. You actually are not listening to what the speaker is saying. The speaker has a certain reputation unfortunately. You have a certain image about him, and you are satisfied with that. You don't question. You don't say, what do you mean, have deep suspicion - not suspicion - doubt, question. But we - you know, it is like a good breath in bad air that passes by. So please, if one can request you, do listen, not only to what the speaker is saying but also to all the things, the whispers of the world, to your wife, to your husband, to the birds, to the song of the winds. You must have the quality of sensitivity to find out. So, if you will kindly pay attention, and that apparently is very difficult because most of us cannot pay attention for more than a couple of minutes - because a few minutes and then you are off somewhere else. There is never deep attentive listening to something. Because if we do listen deeply that is the greatest miracle - you don't have to do a thing. The very act of listening is an action.

We ought also talk over together why there is so much poverty in the world. One can answer the reason for this, as in this country, overpopulation, bad government - sorry, are there governments officials here? I hope not. I am sure there are no government officials here. Bad government, corrupt government, it is so appalling what is happening. And poverty arises not only because of overpopulation, but because each country is concerned with its own economy, with its own problems, building up armaments. I do not know if you know all this. Each country is spending millions and millions on armaments, ready to kill each other. Right? And so where there is division there must be not only conflict but poverty. You understand this? If all the world felt it's our responsibility to wipe out poverty, we could. But you won't let America or India interfere with some other country - you follow? - each country is concerned with itself, like each human being is concerned with himself. Right?

Now we also ought think, talk over together, because we have only one more talk, tomorrow morning, so we must bring everything quickly together - why are human beings frightened, fear. Aren't you afraid? Be simple, sirs. To acknowledge what one is, is not a shameful act, it is 'what is'. We are frightened human beings. And we have carried this burden of fear for centuries, millions of years. Right? If you have observed historically, and also if you have observed without reading a book, all religions are based on fear. If there was no fear there would be no gods. Right? Do you see that? If you are not really frightened at all, subjectively, inwardly, would you have gods? Would you have puja? Would you have prayers? Would you follow somebody who says, 'I know the truth, you don't. I will help you'? So we can look at fear? Can you look at your own fear?

You want to ask a question, madame?

Q: Yes, you were saying that pujas and all these things are only from fear, but they might also be a celebration, you know, not totally negative.

K: I beg your pardon?

Q: You were saying that pujas and all these things might be just coming from fear, but they might be celebration of life, they might be happiness

K: Now, just a minute, just a minute, just a minute. What do you mean by love?

Q: It’s a unity.

K: You see, that is an immense question, madame. You can't say celebration of love, that's...

Q: Of life, no, just celebration, you know.

K: May we just go on first. May we just go on with enquiring, not only into fear, but what is life. What is life? What is living? That is life - living. What is our living? Conflict. Right? Our life is a struggle, our life is a pleasure, sexual, pleasure of achieving something, pleasure of possessing something, and also fear, conflict, being hurt psychologically, sorrow, sympathy, kindliness and generosity and so on - that is our life. That is life, in which there may be certain spurts of tenderness, kindliness. Love is not pleasure. Love is not desire. Love has no reaction. So we won't go into all that at the present moment. So it is no good saying, 'Live with happy life'. One of the strange things is, India is a very sad country but there is always a smile. Haven't you noticed it? The poor smile. They are starving - they smile. No? And that is the miracle of this country. They are starving, downtrodden, no means of happiness, they are perpetually working and yet as you go by on the street especially in the country, they smile at you. This happens nowhere in the world. That is one of the great things of this country.

So, we are talking about fear. Can this fear end? Do you want to know what is the cause of fear? Not a particular form of fear; you may be frightened of your wife or your husband or your top boss, or this or that - that is only various branches of fear. Right? As a tree has many, many branches, many leaves, and it is no good merely cutting off one branch, one must understand the root of fear, go into it very, very deeply, what is the origin, the beginning, the causation of fear. I can explain the speaker can explain the cause, can describe the origin of fear. But explanation, the description is not the actuality. Right? I can describe the Himalayas, but the description is not the actual beauty and the grandeur of the Himalayas. Right? But most of us are satisfied with description. I can explain the cause of fear. You will agree or disagree, but there it is. But if you can go into it for yourself deeply, not merely agree or disagree but go into it, put your teeth into it, then perhaps you will be free of it. But we haven't the energy or the inclination, or even the urge to be free of fear. Right? Because you do puja, you believe in god and so on, but never go to the root of anything and find out for yourself. So may I go into this cause of it? Why human beings throughout the world after millennia upon millennia have lived with fear.

Q: The ‘haves’ are creating fear in the ‘have nots’.

Q: Those who have, they are creating fear in ‘have nots’, those who don’t have.

K: I can't hear. What are you saying, sir? Say it to me slowly, sir. Don't get up, sir.

Q: Somebody has power, somebody has property, somebody has position and he is creating fear in those who have not.

K: Sir, I am asking you, sir, those who have possessions, they are afraid of losing - right? - they have fear death - right? - they fear of their husbands, their wives, fear of public opinion, fear of losing something that you have, fear of not having affection, fear of loneliness, fear of not being somebody. So you have many, many forms of fear. Now do you want to take each subject, or go to the root of it?

Q: Go to the root of it, sir.

K: Go to the root of it. Will you go to the root of it with me?

Q: Yes, sir.

K: But go to it, not just play with it. Will you actually take the trouble? Use your brains - not yours, sir - use your brains, your capacity, your energy to find out, and not be satisfied with the description. I can one can paint a marvellous picture of the Himalayas but the picture is not the Himalayas. The word is not the actual. Right? So will you go beyond the word and work at it? What is the cause of fear? Not the various forms of fear but the root cause of it. Is it not thought? I am this but I might not be that. Right? I have a job, I might lose it. Right? You understand? So thinking is part of fear, isn't it? Right, sir? Thinking. Thinking I might not become a successful man in terms of the world, or in terms of religion I might not achieve enlightenment. Right? Thinking is one of the major causes of fear.

Q: Insecurity.

Q: Insecurity is the cause of fear, she says.

K: If all of you say

Q: Insecurity.

K: We went to that, madame, earlier we went into it - insecurity. Perhaps you were not here when we began, or you didn't listen. We talked about insecurity. Why is there - I won't repeat it.

So is not thought the cause of fear? If you didn't think about death would you be afraid of death? If death happens suddenly to me now, that is the end of it. But if I begin to think, my god, what will happen to me, I might lose my house, my family, my blah blah, I get frightened. Right? Would you agree to that? Not agree, see the fact? So thinking is one of the is perhaps the cause of fear. Right? So we have to enquire what is thinking. You understand, sir? What is thinking? Because your actions are based on thinking. Right? All the puja you do is based on thinking. All the technological advancement, marvellous advancement, is based on thinking. Right? Right, sir? Your business, your way of life, everything is based on thinking. And yet you find thinking is one of the causes of fear. Right? So what is thinking? What is the process of thinking? You understand? The speaker can go into it but if you merely follow it like words it means nothing, but if you put your brains to work on it, as you do when you want money, when you want sex, when you want anything you work at it. So will you also work on this? The speaker will show you, will explain, knowing that explanation is not the thing.

What is thinking? Is it not born out of memory? Right? If you had no memory you wouldn't think, would you? Be quite sure, don't accept anything the speaker says. If you had no memory, which means no knowledge - right? - you wouldn't think, you couldn't think. Are you certain of that? Certain, not just play around with it. That is, experience brings knowledge - right? - as it is happening in the scientific world, in the biological world, in the world of genetic engineering. Perhaps you all about it - I won't go into all that. There is this thinking is based on experience. Which is, experience gives you knowledge, brings the accumulated knowledge, step by step by step, as in the scientific world, more and more and more. Right? So knowledge, experience are limited, aren't they? No? Limited. Therefore thinking is limited. Right? You may think of immensity, of illumination, of complete knowledge - you may think about it, but thinking itself is limited, therefore whatever you think is limited. My lord! Right? Whatever you think, about god - god is limited. You may give him all the attributes you like: kindliness, all knowledge, all powerful, all this and all that, but your thinking being limited, your gods are limited. No?

Q: God is limited, or our thinking about god is limited?

K: All right. Thinking about god is limited - right? - but is god limited?

Q: (Inaudible)

K: How do you know?

Q: God is unlimited.

K: How do you know? (Laughter)

Q: Because it is god.

K: You love god, don't you? To you god is very important, but how do you know god exists? Because you have believed, it is part of your tradition, part of your whole religious concept - right? - and you just follow, and say god exists. And the scientists say quite the opposite, that man began from the sea, as a cell and built, built through centuries until he became man. You don't like that, but god you like, made the world. And you say god made us. He must a pretty poor god to make you. No? So god must be very poor. You are not even logical.

So, we said thinking is one of the causes of fear. I am alive now, but I might be dead tomorrow. Right? And I am afraid of that. So thinking, being limited, and that is limited because knowledge is always limited. Right, sir? Be quite sure about this. Knowledge, whether now or in the future, knowledge will always be limited because it is based on experience. Within the last 150 years or more science has been accumulating. Right? Right, sir? More and more and more and more. Where there is more, it must be limited. Where there is better, it must be limited. Right? So thought is limited, and where there is limitation there must be conflict. Thought has created war, and all the instruments of war. So we say thought is one of the causes of fear. Right? And also time is a cause of fear. Right? Time. Are you interested in all this stuff? Or is it just a kind of game? (Laughs) You have nothing better to do. Time is a factor of fear - I am this No, sorry, let us begin to find out what is time to you. What is time to you?

Q: Change.

K: Change. What do you mean by that word 'change'?

Q: One thing is passing into another thing. The movement of change.

K: Isn't time a series of movements? That is - I am not a scientist, I am not an expert on anything, thank god, but I have watched, lived, enquired - so time is the past, isn't it? Is not time the past? Past memories. Right? Yesterday was a rather cloudy day and cold - right? - not here, perhaps in Delhi, I was. So there is time is yesterday, time is now, time is the future. Right? So time is a movement from the past to the present to the future. So time is a series of movements. Right? So, evolution is time. And we have lived on this earth for 50,000 years as homo sapiens, man, and during that long duration of 50,000 years we have been what we have in the past now - right? - slightly modified. They were selfish then, we are selfish now. Right? You don't think about all this.

So, what is the past? What is the past? All your memories, aren't they? Right? All that you have acquired, all that you have felt, all the things that have hurt you, both biologically as well as psychologically. Right? The past is memory, isn't it? Isn't it? You are quite sure? You are all so hesitant. The past is your father, your mother, your grandmother, your grandfather, up and up and up, or down and down, if you like. The past is all that accumulated memory of whole race, the community, the family, the one in the family - it's all that memory, which includes tradition, knowledge, practice and all that, the skill, that is the past. And what is the present? Is not the present modified past? No? You don't think so? Tell me what the present is.

Q: Memory is the past.

K: Yes sir, modified, I said that. The past meeting the present, the challenge, modifies itself - right? - or controls the present and goes on. So the past modifying itself in the present and goes on. So the past goes on modifying itself all the time, but it is still the past. Right? No? The past modifying itself becomes the future. The future therefore is now, because the past, modified itself, is the future, so the future is now. No? Look, sir, if one is envious, you might modify Suppose I am envious because you have a better house, better car, better position - I am envious of you, and I struggle with it, but tomorrow I will still be envious. Right? No? What is the difficulty? Unless I change now, tomorrow is still envy. Right, sir? So tomorrow is now unless I change. Right?

Q: Change is possible in the present.

K: Only in the present, not in the future.

Q: Because the past is gone then, it is not in our hands.

K: You haven't listened, sir.

Q: (Inaudible)

K: Sir, you are the past, aren't you? You have been to college, university, or if not to university something or other, all your skill. If you are a first class carpenter - not you, sirs - you all are bureaucrats or a business people or something or other - if I want to be a good carpenter, I apprentice myself to a master carpenter, and I have to learn the quality of the wood, the grain, the beauty of the wood - right? - and I have to learn how to use the instruments which I have on the wood. Right? That is acquiring knowledge which becomes memory - right? - and I am a carpenter then. Right? You understand? As you are a business man or a government official, you accumulate. So you are the past. There is no difficulty in this. I don't know why you are resisting it. You may think you are god, that is all right also. That is also past. That is part of your tradition. Right? So you are the past. And that past meets this challenge which I am challenging you now, and says yes, maybe, maybe. And tomorrow you will be like this unless you change now. So the future is now.

Q: How do I know the future? I don’t know whether I will be envious tomorrow or not, I don’t know.

K: You will be, unless you have an accident. You are going home. You have your things at home. That is just a theory. You will be here tomorrow unless you have an accident - I hope you don't. But you know the future because what you are now is the future. Of course. I know you don't like this. The future is in the present. Right? I am envious now and I will be envious tomorrow. Right? Tomorrow is the future, and if I am envious now I will be envious tomorrow. But if I stop envy - therefore tomorrow is now. For god's sake see this. So is it possible to end envy now? You don't think about these things. I am violent now, as most human beings are violent. They talk about peace and all that blah, all that nonsense, but human beings are very violent. Right? It is so. There is no question about it. Now, non-violence is in the future - right? - because you are violent now. Therefore, non-violence has no meaning. Can you stop violence now? If you don't stop it now, tomorrow you will be violent. So tomorrow is now. Right? So is it possible to end time, which is tomorrow, now? I am violent - if I cannot end violence instantly now, I will be violent tomorrow, slightly modified, but I will be still violent. Right? And humanity has said, we'll gradually become less violent. Right? Which is nonsense. Are you surprised at this?

So can you end everything now? Say you are attached, as you are, attached to your belief, to your gods, to your family - attached, you know, hold on. If you are attached today you will be attached tomorrow, naturally. Right? Unless death comes and says, 'Sorry, old boy, that's the end of it'. I know you believe in reincarnation, that is a different matter. But even death comes and says, 'Sorry, you can't carry things with you. You have to drop it'. And so, can you drop attachment now? To be utterly free of attachment, to your belief, to your gods, to everything you are attached to. Otherwise tomorrow you will still be attached. So change is not through gradation, through gradual time. Change is instant, immediate. That is freedom; not to achieve freedom next life or two years later. This requires a great deal of application to your daily life. Therefore your ideas, your theories, your ideals have no meaning. You believe in non-violence, don't you? (Laughs) But you are all terribly violent people. So what does belief in an ideal matter at all? It has no meaning. What has meaning is what you are now, and that can be changed instantly. Not tomorrow, because tomorrow is now.

Good lord!

We should also talk over together very, very seriously - not that we have not been serious - what is a religious brain mind. What is a religious mind? Sir, we have talked for an hour and a quarter. Do you want to go on with this?

Q: Yes.

K: It is easy for me to talk, but... Please, this is a very serious subject; like fear, it requires a great deal of enquiry because the religious brain, to find out what is a religious brain one must be free of all organized religions. Naturally. Free of Buddhism, Hinduism, Jainism, Sikh, Christianity and all the varieties of their so-called religious attitudes and practices, and all that. Now, will you be free of all that - can you be free of all that? Really enquire very deeply what a religious brain is.

Q: To be a Hindu or a Buddha, one can be a broad-minded man.

K: Ah, yes, sounds very nice. That is what the United Nations says - you can all be nations together, but keep your own particular nonsense. Sir, is that so, is that a fact?

Q: Yes.

K: Just listen to it, sir. You say yes - is it a fact. I am a devout Christian - suppose - devout practising Catholic. Do you know what that means? I believe in Virgin Mary, going physically to heaven. That is one of the dogmas. I believe in that. You would call it nonsense, wouldn't you? Wouldn't you? Why are you nervous about it? You would, I mean for god's sake. You say, 'What kind of stupid belief that is. Anybody going up physically, into heaven. What is heaven?' - you follow? It sounds so silly, but I believe it. I devoutly am concerned with it. And you say, 'Yes, we will tolerate it'. T-hat's all. You can live in this country, but you are a Hindu, you have your own beliefs, you own - there is a division between us. No? Right, sir? Right?

Q: You can have your own belief and I can have my own belief.

K: That's it - lovely! I am an American, you are a Russian, or I am Russian - you keep it, and so we are willing to kill each other. No? So I stick to my belief, you stick to your belief. And we call this religion. Is it? When you are faced with facts you dodge it, you keep quiet. So, sir, belief is dividing - right? Will you drop your belief? Because division brings conflict between you and me. Because I have no belief. What is fact is important, not belief.

Q: Can non-belief be a belief?

K: Oh no, no. The end of belief is end of belief. Not belief and the ending of it. I end it.

So, to enquire very deeply into what is a religious brain, because the brain - the brain, that is that which is within the skull, is the centre of all thought - right? - centre of all emotions, centre of all your reactions - right? - centre of all your beliefs, all your fears, all your sorrow, all your depression. It is the centre of every physical activity. No? Right? Would you do you see that fact? I am not a scientist. A scientist would explain this to you very carefully. It is so, whether you like it or not. You may believe there is atman, there is soul, there is god in you, but it is still within the skull. You may imagine or say god is perfect - it is still within the skull. Right? I am not trying to convince you of anything. Don't be convinced. I am not interested.

So, to enquire into what is a religious brain one must be free of all belief. If you have a belief you are attached to that belief, therefore you are not free. It is like going out in the middle of the river with a rope round me. Right? The rope, I am attached to the bank, safely, and I go out. Then I am not free. So we are tethered to a belief, therefore there is no freedom in that. You are tethered to some concept. So there must be freedom from all religious concepts, beliefs, faith, images, idol - all that thing that man has put together through fear. Right? Will you do that? I am not asking you to do it. I don't care. Will you, if you are really enquiring into what is a religious mind, brain you have to be free, obviously. It's like a man in a prison wanting freedom. He can want it, but he must leave the prison. Then he will never ask what is freedom. Right? So, unless we are free from the bondage which we have created for ourselves we cannot possibly enquire into something that demands tremendous energy and freedom. That is the first thing.

So the religious mind, or brain, must be free completely from all attachment. And very, very few people want this kind of stuff. Very, very few people are serious enough to go into this matter. They would like to talk about it, play with it like children, but a childish mind can never understand this.

Perhaps we had better stop today. We will go on with enquire into what is a religious human being, what is a religious life - tomorrow, shall we? We had better stop now.