What place has thought in the transformation of man and society?
The quality of energy that will transform man
1st Public Talk, New Delhi
November 24, 1973
As there are many things we have to talk over together during these four meetings, I think we ought to be very clear that we understand each other. Communication is very important. Communication means to share together, to think together, to explore together, to investigate together. As the speaker wants to say something during these four talks, communication between the speaker and you is very important. We must understand each other, and understanding implies sharing. And to share together there must be attention because we are going to discuss many things together. We are going to talk about the world as it is: the corruption, the brutality, the violence, the disorders and our relationship to that disorder, and what we can do. And we are going to talk over together whether knowledge what place has knowledge in the transformation of man and society. We are going to talk over together the problem of fear and pleasure, love and death and meditation. We are going to talk about all these things during these four talks, and therefore it's very important that we establish right relationship and therefore right communication between you and the speaker.
So, this is not an entertainment, a religious or ideological entertainment. We are here - at least the speaker is - to see what human beings can do, and must do, in a world that is gradually degenerating, breaking up. And so, as we are going to go into all these matters very carefully, and as this is not an entertainment, this requires a great deal of seriousness. That is, together you and I, the speaker, we are going to investigate what the situation is in the world and our relationship to that world, and whether we, as human beings, can transform our whole ideological - our attitude, our values, totally revolutionise all that. So this is very serious, not an amusement. You have to be serious. A quality of mind that is capable of pursuing, investigating, exploring to find what is truth and whether your mind which has created this world, the world of anarchy, the world of corruption, the world of meaningless religions, the divisions between man and man, the conflicts, the wars, the utter brutality.
So, we are together going to take a journey. And to take a journey together with somebody doesn't mean that you must agree or disagree. Because we are not dealing with concepts, with ideologies. We are going to find out how to first observe, how to perceive 'what is'. So it's very important that we understand what it means to perceive and what it means to listen. To listen to what is being said and to perceive, in what is being said, the truth or the false. So it is your responsibility whether you are capable of listening, listening to what is being said and not translate it into an ideology, a concept, and then try to carry out that concept. Because we are not dealing with concepts, with ideologies. We are going to observe; observe the world of which you are and your relationship to that world, and whether you, who are the world, and the world is you, whether you can transform yourself totally, psychologically, bring about a revolution in the psyche, at the very root of your being. And to see, to perceive, exactly 'what is'. Not translate what you see into an idea.
So we have great deal of work to do. You are not merely just listening to a series of words, exchanging concepts, ideologies, but together we are going to investigate not only what is happening outside, the world, outside the skin as it were, but also what is happening inwardly. And in the observation of what is going on both outwardly and inwardly, to see without distortion. A distortion takes place when what you see you translate it into ideas, into concepts, into formulas. That is a distortion of 'what is'. Is this all very clear? Are we understanding each other? We are going to examine what the world is outside of us and also observe what is happening inside of us, and discover whether we are the world and the world is us, because that's very important to find that out - not intellectually, not verbally, but actually feel the responsibility, feel the truth of this fact, that you are the world and the world is you. Because when you realise that, when you see the truth of that - and you cannot see the truth of it if you merely translate such a statement into a formula or an idea, one has to feel it, one has to have tremendous sense of compassion.
So, let us observe, first, the world around us. You understand what we mean? - the world - the political world, the economic world, the scientific world, the world of education, the world of so-called religions. We are going to investigate, we are not going to offer any opinion, we are not going to find truth through opinions - that's merely dialectical. You understand all this? Are we understanding each other? Right. When you observe what is going on around you, the world in which we live, we see politics, this corruption; governments all over the world are corrupt, some more and some less. That's a fact. Observe this. Look at it. Politically there is great corruption. The word 'corruption' means 'to break up'. It is Latin, comes from Latin, which means 'rumpere', 'to break'. The political world in its very nature and structure is a fragmentary movement - right? - and therefore it's corrupt. And we man had hoped always that through politics, there will be order in the world. That is, through sovereign governments, national sovereignty, it was hoped, intellectuals and others, that there would be order. And quite the opposite is going on. There is total disorder, not only in this country but everywhere else. That's a fact.
And one had hoped, one had looked for science to solve all our problems. Science with its technology has not solved any of our problems, human problems. They have given us a great deal of technological knowledge and action. You see all this. These are fairly obvious things when you look. Education, which is to prepare a human being to meet life, the totality of life, not just one segment of life, the total implication of existence. That's what is education. Not merely to cultivate shoddy little memories to pass an exam and get some job, either in the great bureaucracy or in some potty little job. Right? You are following all this? So, education has not solved our problems. On the contrary.
And religions, have they transformed man? Because the very function of any religion - religion, not the organised religion of belief and propaganda and all that; those are not religions - religion, the function of religion is to bring about total transformation of man. And when you observe what is going on in the religious world, look at it quite impartially, objectively, if you can, sanely, then you will see what they are doing in the field of religion. How they have divided people with their gods, with their beliefs, with their dogmas, with their superstition, with their rituals. Right? And in this country, which is supposed to be very, very religious, are you religious or merely worshipping ideas? You know the word 'idea' means idea means 'to see', 'to observe'. And when you observe what's happening in this country, has there ever been religion in this country? Please, this is a very, very serious question. Has there ever been religion in the world at all? Or there has been religion in the sense of ideologies, images made by the hand or by the mind, which is the very essence of thought, and thought has built religions. And is that religion? You understand my question? Please, this is really very, very serious. I am asking you if in India, in your country, if ever religion in the deepest and the most sacred sense of that word has ever existed in this country. You worship ideas. You follow what somebody tells you about something which is called truth. They tell you what enlightenment is. The description is not the described, and you have caught up in the description, in words, in concepts, in images, symbols, and that doesn't make for religion. So, one questions, as you must question, whether you are whether in India there has ever been religion.
Religion implies perception. Perception, seeing the truth. Not perceiving and then conceiving and worshipping that which you have conceived. You understand all this? I wonder if you do.
Krishnamurti: Wait, sir, wait, sir, wait. Don't quote to me Vedanta, the Bhagavad Gita and the Upanishads, please. That indicates you are living on words, worshipping authority, obeying, which has nothing whatever to do with truth.
And you look at this world about you. You see all this war, corruption, hatred, the wastage of the earth and its minerals, pollution of the air, the sea and the land and the earth, and the beauty of earth; and yourself. Look at yourself if you can bare it. Put a mirror in front of you and look at it very sanely, without any distortion. See exactly what is going on in that mirror, which is yourself. You are brutal, corrupt, selfish, violent, without any sense of compassion, you take drugs as if that's going to solve all the problems, you go to temples, you are frightened. You're frightened of everything: of death, of love, of sex, of everything of which man is, of that you are frightened. And you are frightened of death.
So you, through your greed, envy, fear, pleasure, you have created this world. You are the world and the world is you. You are not separate from the world. You are not an individual. When you talk about individuality, you don't know the meaning of that word. 'Individual', 'individuality' means 'indivisible', that which cannot be divided, broken up. That means a human being who is total, complete, sane, holy; and when you are the whole there is no individuality separate from the world. Do understand this thing because it's very serious. The world is facing a dreadful crisis, as you are facing a crisis.
So, then it becomes very important how to bring about a transformation in the human mind - the mind which means the totality of consciousness and the content of that consciousness. The content of consciousness is consciousness. The content is not separate from consciousness. In that content there must be a radical revolution, otherwise you are going to face a world that is going to pieces, that is degenerating, that is corrupt, like yourself. You are the world and therefore it becomes tremendously important to find out for ourselves what knowledge what place has knowledge in the transformation of our mind. You understand my question? Am I talking Greek, or Chinese or Russian? We understand each other, don't we? I am asking you a question, which is: we have knowledge, we have accumulated knowledge through centuries upon centuries - knowledge about wars, about the reasons of brutality, knowledge about nature - we have accumulated knowledge about almost everything, technological as well as psychological, the world outside and the world inside - we know a great deal, and I am asking whether what place has that knowledge in the transformation of our human mind? You have understood my question? Have you?
You see, when that gentlemen talked about advaita or whatever he was talking about, he has knowledge, he has accumulated knowledge, what somebody has said. And what place has that knowledge in the transformation of your mind? You have mathematical knowledge, you have engineering knowledge, you have knowledge of biology, anthropology, and you have knowledge galore, volumes, and will knowledge bring about the essential revolution in the very psyche, in the very essence of your being? Knowledge being experience, knowledge being memory, and thought is the response of that memory. You are following all this? You understand?
Thought has built this world - the technological world, the moral world, the religious world - thought. And so we are asking: what place has thought in the transformation of man and society? You are following all this? And yet we are trying to solve all our problems, our human problems of relationship with each other, private and public, we are trying to solve our economic problems, our social problems, our technological problems, the problems of pollution, the air, the earth, the sea, with thought. And it is thought that has polluted the earth. It is thought that has created untold misery for human beings through wars. It is thought that has divided people as Hindus, the Muslims, the Buddhists, the Christians, all that nonsense. It is thought that says, 'My guru is better than your guru'. Thought being is the response of memory. Memory is knowledge. And what place has that knowledge, which is thought, in the transformation of man, and therefore his society? You have got my question? Thank god! At least some of you have got it. You understand? We are asking a very fundamental question.
Therefore the knowledge of the Upanishads, the Gita, the Bible or the knowledge of your guru, what the guru says, don't say, has very little importance when you are asking a fundamental question of this kind. And you have to ask the fundamental question, because we are facing an enormous crisis, as usual. There is anarchy in this country. The word 'anarchy' means 'without a ruler', and this country has no ruler. Everybody is looking after his own private interests. So gradually, as I have been coming to this country for the last fifty years, every winter, except during the World War II, I have the speaker has noticed the terrible decline, morally, politically, aesthetically, and if there ever was a religion in this country, the decline of that. So seeing the terrible things that are happening in the world in every field, you must as a human being find out whether your mind, your heart can be totally transformed. And does that depend on memory, on the book of on the knowledge of your books, on the knowledge of your so-called gurus? You have had gurus galore. They spring up like mushrooms. And a wise man doesn't eat those mushrooms. And you call that religion, following somebody, somebody who does a little miracle.
So, it is only the religious mind that can create a new world. Religion, in the deepest sense of that word, is the factor of creation. And we as human beings have to create a new world. Therefore it's very important to understand fundamentally, please, what is a religious mind. And to find out you must totally discard all authority. You understand this? The authority of your books, so-called sacred books, which are nothing but ideas, you must totally discard every form of authority, of gurus, of temples, priests. You have to think of the whole thing anew. You understand? Please. So, can - put it very, very, very simply - can thought transform man? Thought which has created this world: the world of nationalities and wars, the world of class differences, the world of corruption, the world of sovereign governments fighting each other, the world of violence, hatred, brutality, the world of greed - thought has created all this. You understand? And can thought transform man? Right? I am putting the question to you, which is most unfortunate; you should put this question to yourself, not the speaker. Because this is a fundamental question. You have found thought has created the economic world, the competitive world, thought has divided the Arab and the Jew, the Hindu and the Muslim. You have had wars, killing each other. Thousands of mothers and wives and sisters are crying, the world over. All that is the result of thought. Thought has created the technological world, the world of knowledge, the world of science, the world of engineering, mathematics and so on. That is necessary, isn't it? You are understanding? But the mind that uses that for selfish reasons, in the name of one's country, in the name of god, in the name of science, that has to be changed, not the knowledge which man has acquired through centuries. Are you understanding? Are we meeting each other?
Don't get tired, please. We have lots of time. There are a great many things we have to go into. Don't get so easily tired in the first talk. I know you have had a long day, probably in a beastly office, bullied, insulted, frightened, intimidated, ambitious, greedy, and you come here - I don't know why - you come here, weary of all that, made weary by all that and your mind cannot listen to all this. It gets easily tired. You are used to interpretations of some book and then you feel comfortable, relaxed, and you can go on with your mischief next day. And that you call religious gathering. Whereas what we are talking about is something entirely different. We are concerned with the transformation of the human mind; the human mind which is your mind. Your mind is the mind of the world, and the world's mind is you. And to investigate, go into that requires a great deal of energy and serious, earnest enquiry. And if you are tired, if you are bored, don't come to these meetings, it is utterly useless. Go to a cinema or go to your guru and be comforted for your mischief. Here, what we are trying to do is think together and learn; not from me, I am not your guru, I am not your authority, though I may sit the speaker may sit on a platform, a little higher, that doesn't give me any authority. That is only there, he is sitting there for convenience so that you can see him, but otherwise he has no authority. Therefore he is not your guru, and therefore you are not his followers. Because to find truth you must stand absolutely alone. Therefore to stand alone means you have to understand yourself completely.
So we are asking whether the mind, your mind, can be transformed totally so that it is capable of acting - acting not according to an idea but acting in the very perceiving. You understand? The seeing is the acting; not the seeing and then conceiving, formulating and acting according to the formulation. That's not action, that's an abstraction. You are following all this? The word 'abstraction' means 'to draw away from'. Look, human beings all over the world suffer for many, many reasons, they are afraid, they are in agony, they are torturing themselves, their friends or their loves, and their husbands, wives, die and there is suffering; suffering, tears, anxiety, loneliness, misery. That's a fact. Right? That's a fact. The abstraction is how to get away from suffering, the withdrawing from the fact. That is, moving away from the fact, moving away into a belief, into the demand, 'How shall I escape from suffering?', or the explanation of suffering as karma and all the rest of it. That is, you have moved away from the fact, and therefore when you move away from the fact it is a distraction from 'what is'. Therefore there is no solution in abstractions. Have you understood that? Right, sir?
Look at it in another way: you are violent. That's not abnormal; all human beings are violent in one way or another - sexually, morally, politically, you know, violent. That's a fact. Right? The going away from it is an ideological concept of non-violence. Right? When you have moved away from the fact, you are not going to solve the fact. You have gone away from it and you are living in an abstraction which is not revealed. Therefore you never solve the problem of violence. You have understood this? Therefore, a mind that is capable of looking at the fact of violence and not go away from it, as going away into an idea, remaining with it, brings about a totally different kind of energy which will then put aside violence. Have you understood? Look, sir, you have to learn an awful lot. We are learning as we are going - you understand? - we are taking a journey together and learning together. And this learning is continuous; not I have learnt, which becomes knowledge and then it becomes something entirely different.
So, we human beings live in abstractions. Right? God is an abstraction made by thought which cannot understand the world in which it lives - its suffering, its agony, its misery - and therefore creates an outside agency which it worships. And therefore misery goes on, suffering goes on, tears, untold tears of human beings go on, though you worship god which is an abstraction, which is a concept, a conception away from 'what is'. I hope you see this. Therefore, no ideals at all. Only the fact of 'what is'.
Look, sir, in the world there is starvation, isn't there? Starvation: people are going hungry, poor houses, degradation of poverty. It is in this country, rampant. Now, listen to it, please listen to this. The communists have a plan to solve it, the socialists have a plan to solve it, the congress people, the politicians, the economists, the religious people, they have all plans - right? - to solve this problem. Listen to it, please listen to it. And they are more concerned about the plans, the ways of stopping the starvation, and they do not face the fact. They go away in abstraction. Whereas if all the people, the leaders, your leaders, if they say, 'Look, let's all get together - not whether we agree about this plan or that plan, let's see the fact, come together', then you'll solve it. You understand what I am saying? I know you shake your head, you verbally agree, but you'll be still nationalists, you'll still follow the politician, you'll still worship ideologies. Oh, what crooked minds yours are. You can't think straight, you can't look at facts. You always look at them through ideologies. Therefore, suffering, violence, starvation and tears will go on. And you are responsible for it.
So, what place has thought in the transformation of man and society? The Western world is based on thought. Please listen to this. The Western world, which is the outcome of the Grecian world, measurement was the highest importance - measurement - and out of that measurement, the whole technological world has been built. Right? This is an historical fact, you can observe it and see it. The Eastern world, India, said measurement is illusion, one must seek the immeasurable. But to seek the immeasurable they use thought. You are following all this? One said measurement is essential for existence. Measurement means thought, time, moving, movement in time is essential - the Western world; and the Eastern world said seek, find the immeasurable, because everything else is measurable, therefore not real. But to come upon the immeasurable they had to employ thought. And all your books are based on thought, or the description of the immeasurable which is thought. I wonder if you see all this. Therefore, both the West and the East are the same. Right?
Therefore we come back to again, over and over again, to this question: what place has knowledge in the transformation of man? If it has no place in the transformation of man and his society, then what will? Do you understand my question? My mind and your mind is the result of time. Time is movement. Movement is evolution. Your mind has taken thousands upon thousands of years to bring about this mind, which is the brain, the capacities of the brain and so on. The brain holds memory. Now what place has that in the transformation, which is so utterly necessary always in human relationship? You have understood my Right? If it has not, and it has its place, otherwise you couldn't run, you couldn't ride a bicycle or drive a car or do anything, so knowledge has its place, but will that knowledge help man to change totally his structure and nature? You have understood? And apparently, as you observe, it has not. Right? Knowledge has not stopped man from wars. Knowledge has not stopped the politicians and you from being corrupted. Knowledge has not stopped you from being a Hindu, a Muslim and a Sikh and a god knows what else you are. You are divided, and where there is division there is conflict. And knowledge hasn't prevented that. So, if knowledge has not brought about man's change, if knowledge has not brought about compassion and the beauty of the earth and the beauty of love and so on, then what will? You understand my question? Right? Have you understood my question? Your religions haven't changed you, your governments haven't changed you, your will to be something hasn't changed you.
So we are going to find out together during these three more talks, what is the quality of energy that will transform man. The energy of knowledge is one thing, and the energy which is not dependent on knowledge is another. The flowering of goodness, the flowering of goodness doesn't grow in the field of knowledge. You understand? So, we will go on tomorrow evening and find out for ourselves - not dependent on the speaker because he is not your authority - find out or learn together what is the nature of that energy that will transform the mind. The mind being the brain which holds memory, all our emotions, instincts, our temperaments, our idiosyncrasies, all that is the mind, is the consciousness. And what is that energy that will transform this consciousness? Right? We'll go on with it tomorrow. Right?
Now you are eager to ask questions, please do so.
Q: Is survival of a human being possible without thought?
K: Is it possible for the survival of a human being without thought. It all depends on what you call survival. Thought has created the Hindu and the Muslim. Right? Right, sir? And they fight each other - right? - they destroy each other. Right? So, thought, does it offer you survival? Come on, sir, use your capacities. Thought has created sovereign governments, national sovereignties - right? - hoping to have security. Have you got security? Because you have wars. So when you say thought, can thought can human beings survive without thought. Of course not. I said, sir, thought is knowledge. Right? If you didn't know how to ride your bicycle home, you couldn't survive, could you? You could walk, but to walk also depends on your knowledge of the road and direction. So knowledge is a factor of survival and you must have that knowledge to survive. But when that knowledge is used by politicians, by you, for their own selfish interests, then security becomes non-existent. Right? It is so... Right, sir.
Q: Sir, what you say is not with the help of thought? Can a man remain without a thought any moment?
K: Does not what you say depend on thought. Right? Does not the usage of language, which is English, doesn't it depend on thought? Of course it does. If I didn't if there was no words, there would be no thought, and to communicate one must use words. Or you can communicate at a different level, non-verbally. But that requires quite a different sensitivity and all the rest of it. So, thought - please, as I pointed out, thought is necessary, otherwise you couldn't talk your Hindi. But thought says, 'Hindi must be spoken in the South'. Right? And you battle over it like a lot of children. Thought has created wars. Right? Pakistan and Hindus. And you are using thought to find peace. You understand? Thought creates war on one hand and thought says, 'I will also have peace'. And your whole structure of the world is based on thought. Your relationship with your wife, with your husband, with your children is based on thought. And thought is fragmentary. You know, in a certain culture among the Eskimos, thought means 'the outer' - you understand? - thought in their language means 'the outer', that is, thought is the outside, which has created the inside. You understand? So, thought has divided the outer and the inner. Thought has divided the world as the world and you. Thought has created you and the community.
Q: Flowering of goodness will also come through thought. Flowering of goodness that will also come through thought only.
K: Flowering of goodness can only come through thought. Do you really mean that, sir, or is that a clever statement? Do you really think goodness can be cultivated by thought? Can love be cultivated by thought? Compassion, humility?
Q: One question, sir: what is thought, where it comes from?
K: What is thought and where does it come from. (Laughs) Why do you ask me? Have you ever asked that question yourselves?
K: Now, how do you answer it?
Q: I could not find it out, sir.
K: He says he couldn't be find it out. Now wait, listen to the question. Where does thought come from. What is its source? He asked the question and he says, 'I haven't been able to find it, please tell me'. Right? Now, how does he listen to my answer? That's very important. How do you listen to an answer? You have listened to answers from the politicians, from your gurus, from your books - right? - from your leaders. So you are asking me for an answer. And I don't belong to any of that group or that gang. So what will you do? Wait, sir, listen to what I am saying. If you ask that question and want the real answer, then you and I must work, think together, mustn't we? You and I must think together, communicate together, and therefore we must share together, share together in the question. Right, sir? Are you willing to share? Or are willing or waiting to be told? Then if you are told, you will agree or disagree. Then you can have fun - agreeing, disagreeing. But if you are sharing the food together, you eat it together. Right? You understand what I am saying? Therefore, in answering a question, are you sharing or waiting to be told?
K: Wait, sir, I haven't finished yet. Sir, I know you have your own question and you are full of that question, but also somebody else asked a question. It is as important as yours, if you know how to listen to every question.
Now, I must stop, one must stop, it's nearly half past seven.
Q: Another question, sir, if you’ll permit me. When the question is asked, why are the bonafides of the questioner questioned?
K: When a question is asked, why is the bonafides of the questioner questioned. I ask, sir, because I am not questioning the bonafides of the person who asked the question; I am asking whether he is serious. I am not doubting his questioning, as question, but is your question serious? Are you willing to go into that question fully? Or you just ask and say, 'Well, that's good enough'. He asked a question, which is: what is the source of thought? What do you think it is? We are sharing this together, I am not telling you. What do you think it is?
Q: Experience of mind.
K: What, sir?
Q: The memories.
K: Look, sir, just listen. I ask you, 'What's your name?' Right? Your response is immediate - why?
K: What sir?
K: Do listen, sir. Look at it. I ask you your name and your response is immediate. Why? Because you have repeated that name a hundred times. Therefore your response is instant. Now I ask you a question which is much more difficult, with which you are not quite familiar. Then what takes place? Listen to it carefully. I ask you, and there is a time interval between the question and the answer. Right, sir? Now, in that time interval, in that lag between the question and the answer, what takes place?
Q: It will expose your knowledge.
K: What takes place inside, sir?
Q: You are searching for an answer.
K: You are searching for an answer, aren't you? You are searching for an answer. Right? Which is, searching for an answer in your memory. Right? Right, sir? That is, you have stored up memory in your brain, and you are answering, looking for an answer in that. Or you are looking an answer in a book, or looking for an answer from somebody who knows. So there is an interval between the question and answer, in which thought is operating, looking for an answer in the field of knowledge. Now, I ask you a question which is so different, and you say, 'I don't know'. Right? I ask you, what is god? Right? You can say, god is this, god is that, but that is not god. That is your description of god. So I ask you a question, which is totally unknown to you. Then you say, 'I really don't know'. Right? You are not waiting for an answer. You just say, 'I don't know'. So there are three things: immediate response - right? - then an interval between question and answer, and 'I don't know'. The man who doesn't know is enquiring, is capable of observing, capable of learning. But the man who is looking in the field of memory, he's always limited by that field. And the man who is familiar - instant response. Are you an Indian? 'Yes'. Muslim? 'Yes'. Sikh? 'Yes'. Christian? 'Yes'. Communist? 'No', and so on and on and on. So, thought is the response of memory. Right, sir?
Q: Sir, what is memory? What is the origin of the thought?
K: Yes. I am pointing out, sir. Memory, how does memory come? Keep it very simple and you will see it. How do you have memory? How do you have the memory of English? You have been taught, you have read, you are educated in the language. That remains in your brain as memory, and when you talk in English that operates. This is all, sir, obviously authentic, not my invention - you can observe it. I don't read books, thank god, but I have observed. So you see it. So thought is the response of memory. If you had no memory you would be in a state of amnesia, you wouldn't know. Memory is experience. Experience is knowledge. So knowledge, experience, memory, all that is the background of thought. When you say you are a Hindu - and I hope you will never say it - but when you say that you are a Hindu, it is your conditioning, your memory, your training, your tradition.
Q: There are certain (inaudible) come, and we don’t find anything like that in memory and knowledge
K: We have certain - sir, I must stop. I'll stop now, after this question. No more, sir, it's half past seven. Are you capable of going on? Aren't you tired?
K: What, madame?
K: I am sorry, we will have to do it tomorrow.
Q: Sir, who is the investigator taking the journey with you. Is he not accumulated (inaudible)
K: He wants to know who is the investigator, is he not a mass of thought. The investigator is the investigated. Have you understood that? We'll go into it tomorrow, sir. We must stop.