Why do we divide the spiritual and the mundane?
As long as there is a meditator, there is no meditation
Public Discussion, Rajghat
November 21, 1985
This is supposed to be a conversation between us. You are going to question me, question the speaker, we are going to have a discussion, a deliberation, take counsel together, weigh together, consider together, to balance things together, it is not one person answering your questions, or your queries, but rather together we are going to have a conversation.
Probably you are not used to this, to really talk to somebody openly, frankly. Probably we never do, even to our wives or husbands, or somebody closely related, we never talk openly, frankly. We put on that mask, pretend. If we could put aside all that this morning and consider what questions we have, what we would like to talk over together, what you are most concerned with, not just some absurd stuff, but rather what you really want to find out. So we are going to have a deliberation. That word means to weigh together, balance, take counsel with each other, to consider with each other. Not the speaker considers and then you agree or disagree - that's rather childish.
So can we, this morning, talk over together as though we are really true friends. Not that I am sitting on a platform because a platform indicates somebody high up, it generally is merely more convenient, so that we can see each other. So before we begin to discuss, how do you approach a question? Understand what I am asking you? How do you regard a question, a problem, how do you weigh the problem, how do you come very close to the problem? So we are going to consider together - whatever the question, however silly the question is, however absurd the question is - we are going to talk over together. Is that clear? Right?
We can't expect the speaker to answer your questions, because in the question itself may be the answer. You understand? Not you put a question to me and then I answer you. That's rather meaningless. But how do you regard a question, what is your approach to the question, how do you consider, weigh, take account of the question? Because in the question itself may be the answer; not question and then wait for an answer. So whatever question we are going to discuss this morning, let us examine the question first, not wait for an answer. You understand, sirs? Have we understood this, or it's too mysterious?
I've got a question. Question - I am not going to answer it. Why do you separate life, the living, daily living from your ideas of the spiritual? Why do you divide the two? May I put that question? Right? Why do we separate so-called religious life - all the monks and the robes and all that - and the daily monotonous lonely life; why do we separate? You answer my question.
Questioner: Because it gives us a kind of energy.
Krishnamurti: So you want energy, is that it?
Q: No. Spiritual life and ordinary mundane life, they involve two different kinds of energy.
K: That is, two different kinds of energy, one for a so-called spiritual, religious life, and the other, the mundane life, another kind of energy. Now I am not going to answer the question, let's find out if what you are saying is a fact. Right? Is it a fact? You state this. You say, well those people who are religious put on those funny robes, need quite a different kind of energy than a man who travels around, makes money and all the rest of it, or the poor man in the village. Why do you divide the two? Energy is energy - right? - whether it be the electric energy, or the motor driven energy, or the solar energy. Right sir? The energy of the river in flood - energy. Right? You have the energy to come here, energy to go for a walk, energy to do all kinds of funny things you do. So why do you divide energy? Is that, the man with the beard, strange clothes, has he more energy? Or he is trying to concentrate his energy on a particular issue? You understand, sir? Energy is energy. Hydroelectric energy, piston energy in a car, the dynamo energy, the solar energy. Right? They are all energy, aren't they?
Q: Some energy which we call thought, we can end. There is another energy which we call insight which will not end but flower into awareness. There is another energy which we call mind, which is in the beginning also, as mind, even after we have ended it is also mind, but that mind is compassion (inaudible). So energy of the mind remains throughout energy of the thought which ends, and the energy of insight it vanishes the energy of the thought and still it remains.
K: Sir, would you mind making your statement short?
Q: May I? He is saying that there are various kinds of energy: one is energy of thought which can be stilled, there is another energy of insight, which does not get stilled, and another energy of mind which brings about compassion and other things.
K: Certainly not. Sir, we are talking over, I am not laying down the law. Would you mind listening.
Q: The relationship of the three aspects of energy: of thought, of insight and of mind.
K: You answer it. (Laughter) Why not? You have a perfect right to answer him.
Q: Sir, I think that (inaudible) just to be comfortable and easy. We don’t want to use it, that is why we divide the two sides
K: Just a minute sir. Have the courtesy to listen to somebody first.
Q: She says that just because we want to be comfortable therefore we divide energy into various compartments.
Q: I don’t think there can be many types of energy. Energy can be only one.
K: Yeah. I should have thought so myself. (Laughter) You see how we divide everything? We divide spiritual energy, mental energy, the energy of insight, the energy of thought.
Q: It is unnecessary complication.
K: I know, it complicates it, doesn't it. (Laughter) Why not be very simple about it? Energy of the body, the energy of sex, the energy of thought, it's all energy, it's one thing, only we divide it. Why? Find out, madame, why do we divide it?
Q: We are conditioned to divide it.
K: Yes. Now, sir, why are you conditioned? Why do you accept this? Division - you understand sir? - India, Pakistan, Russia, America, why do you divide all this? Tell me.
Q: It’s a reality.
Q: Because of some illusion.
Q: He says, it’s a reality. This division is a reality.
K: Of course it is a reality - you go to war. Why do you make obvious statements, sir?
Q: There is a difference between truth and the reality, so a spiritual life...
Q: He says there is a difference between the truth and the reality.
K: All right. What do you call reality?
Q: What we see.
K: Therefore you say reality is right in front of you - right? - what you see, visually, optically. Is the tree a reality?
Q: Yes, sir.
K: All right. Is what you think a reality?
Q: Sometimes we have to. (Laughter)
K: Is your wife a reality?
Q: Yes, sir.
K: What do you mean by a wife?
Q: Real life...
K: No, no, I am asking you a question. What do you mean by my wife?
Q: There is a psychological factor. (Laughter)
K: What do you mean psychological?
Q: There are two things: one is
K: Sir, we haven't finished that question.
Q: It’s my fault. (Laughter)
K: All right, sir.
Q: There is a psychological attitude that I have towards my wife, and there is the reality of wife who has her own psychology
K: So are you saying, sir, if I may put it in my own words - you will allow me to put it in my own words? The image of your wife, the image which you have built up, is different from the wife - is that it?
Q: Could be.
K: What do you mean 'could be'? (Laughter)
Q: Suppose the wife is fitting an image most of the time, that she is like not an alive person then naturally my image will coincide with the reality of the wife.
Q: It may happen sometimes that the image coincides with the reality of what my wife is.
K: Have you looked at your wife? Have you seen her, enquired into her ambitions, her pain and anxiety, bearing the pain of children and all the rest of it? Have you considered what the wife is? Or you may have lived with her for ten, or five, or fifty years - you have built an image about her, haven't you? Right? Right, sir?
Q: Not necessarily.
K: I do not say necessarily, or unnecessarily. Is it a fact that you have, if you are married, or if you have some friend, you build an image about her, don't you? Not necessarily, but it takes place. Right? Right sir? I am not trying to brow-beat you, sir, but each one has an image about the other. You have an image about me, haven't you? No sir? Otherwise you wouldn't be here. So we create an image about another, depending on our temperament, depending on our knowledge, depending on our illusions, depending on our fantasies and so on. We build an image about people. You have an image of the prime minister, you have an image about the person who is speaking to you. So we are asking a much deeper question, which is can you live a daily life without images?
Q: Here’s one sir
K: You are the chairman, you'd better come up here.
Q: These images that we build up, they are generally in relationship with ourselves. I build up an image around me.
K: Yes, you have an image about yourself.
Q: Yes. And if we can achieve that state which you have been talking – effacing the centre, effacing the self – then the images would automatically drop. We can live
Chairman: Is that all? Have you finished? He is saying that we have an image about ourselves.
K: For sure.
Q: Not about ourselves. Only images we build in relationship to ourselves. The image about my wife is in relationship to me.
C: Yes. And if we can develop that state of which you talk, in which the self is dropped, then without the image we can live.
K: So, when you talk about relationship, what do you mean there, by that word?
Q: By relationship...
K: Sir, please just listen quietly first before you answer. Take a little breather. What is your relationship with another? Relationship. You understand the word? Just listen sir. To be related. I am related to him, he is my father, my brother, my sister, whatever it is, what do you mean by that word 'relationship'?
K: Careful, sir! Don't be so quick. Go slowly, we've got plenty of time. You understand the word 'relationship': to be related, either through blood - you understand? - he is my father, my brother, we have come out of the same womb, my father and my mother produced us - and what do you mean by that word 'relation'?
Q: I was not using the word ‘relationship’ in that sense.
K: I am talking in that sense. (Laughter)
C: My care and concern for my friends, for my parents, for my children including hatred - all that includes.
K: Do you really care? Or is it just an idea that you should care?
K: Sir, did you understand, sir, if I may politely ask you, what do you mean by the word - word - to be related? Not what you give meaning to it - the meaning according to the dictionary, what do you mean by that word 'related'?
C: Contact through the actual, not through words or images.
K: Sir, I am asking you a question, don't kick it around. I am asking you most respectfully, what do you mean by 'related'? 'I am related to him'. What does that mean?
Q: I think when I say I am related, I become a part of that person.
K: Are you a part of your wife?
K: Not total, or partial. I am asking sir, most politely, what do you mean by that word 'related'?
Q: Sir, being associated with day-to-day life.
Q: I am close to the person.
Q: A network of expectations from each other of relations and duties.
C: Please come again. Please repeat.
Q: Generally what we mean by relationship in daily life is a network of expectations from each other, our duties and obligations towards
C: A network of expectations from each other, duties and obligations. That constitutes relationship.
K: You make it so very complex, don't you.
K: If you would kindly listen, I am asking you what do you mean by that word, per se for itself, not what you think it should be.
Q: Close touch.
Q: Getting attached
K: Do I need an interpreter?
C: To have something in common.
K: We are talking in English, aren't we? Right? Right Sir? We are talking in English. I don't know Hindi or any Indian language, I only know several European languages. But the word 'relation' has a great significance. I am asking you, if I may, what do you mean by that word?
Q: To have something in common.
K: Oh god! People repeat.
K: All right, sir, let him shout.
Q: I have an image about you, in my relations with you.
K: Do you have a relationship with me?
K: In what way? I am asking this seriously, sir, don't throw it aside.
Q: When I am looking at you without an image I have relationship at that moment with you.
K: You really haven't thought about it. We are just throwing out words.
Q: I think we have diverted from main exact question – the spiritual or real life.
C: He says, we have diverted from the original question of division between the spiritual and the
K: I know, I know. (Laughter) I am not so dumb as I look! (Laughter) So sir, let's get back - I'll come back to this word, it is a very important word in our life. Why do we divide the spiritual and the mundane? Just listen, sir, please just listen. We divide India against Pakistan. Right? We divide various religions - Christianity, Buddhism, Hinduism and so on, divide, divide, divide - why? Don't answer, just look at it sir, we are taking counsel together, we are looking at the same problem together. You understand, sir? Why do we divide? Of course there is a division with man and woman: you are tall, I am short, or I am tall, you are thin - whatever it is - right? - but that's natural isn't it? You are tall or brown, or white, or pink, or yellow, I happen to be black, all right. But that's according to the sun, according to heritage and so on, genetic issues - I won't go into all that. So, why do we divide?
Q: Because we have different ideas and different belief and different interests, and we want to stick to them.
K: Why do you want to stick to them?
Q: Because we are selfish and we have self-interest.
K: No, don't reduce everything to selfishness. Why do we divide, I am asking.
Q: There is some inner fear in us.
Q: I think we have to divide because when I don’t have an image about my wife I am being spiritual, and when she is violent towards me, she is Indian
Q: What did he say?
C: He says that we have to divide because when I do not have an image about my wife I'm being spiritual, but when she is violent she is being real, so there is a division between the real and the spiritual. (Laughter)
Q: May I say
K: Yes, sir.
Q: sir, the energy is one. The fundamental energy is one. When that fundamental energy bombards any atom, any matter, it splits up into scattered energy. This scattered energy has different properties. We have collected the psychological matter which splits up the fundamental energy into the scattered energy. Due to the scattering of energy we have collected different ideas, the psychological matter we have collected, and that is responsible for the division.
K: What is that, sir?
C: Sir, he says that energy as such is different from the scattered energy. When an atom is bombarded by energy, the atom gets scattered, and the scattered energy has properties different from that the whole energy with which the atom is bombarded. A similar thing happens in the psychological field.
K: Which is what?
C: Which means that different kinds of energies manifested in psychological fields are different from each other.
K: So who is dividing all this? Who is dividing all these various forms of energies?
Q: The mind itself first divides into the inner perception and then the outer perfection, after dividing itself into...
K: Is that your experience? Or are you quoting somebody?
Q: Half-half. (Laughter)
K: Could we please be serious for a while and face these facts: why have we divided the world, first, around us - you understand? - Pakistan, India, Europe and India, America and Russia and so on - who has done all these divisions?
Q: I think it is ego, our separate identities.
C: He says it is ego. He says it is thought.
K: Are you guessing? Are you guessing? Why don't we look at the fact first? We have different ideologies, different beliefs, one section of the world believes in Jesus, the other section believes in Allah, some other section believes in the Buddha, other section believes in something else - who has done all these divisions?
Q: It is we, mankind.
K: That means you.
Q: Yes, sir.
K: You have divided the world, why?
Q: We have inherited it.
K: Sir, just listen, please listen. Why have you divided?
Q: Because of fear.
C: Fear and security.
K: Fear. Are you sure, what you are saying? Don't point to him.
Q: He says I am repeating what he says.
K: What do you say?
Q: We divide ourselves because we get pleasure
C: We divide ourselves because we derive pleasure from this division.
K: If you are also being killed by another party, is that also pleasure? You don't face
K: You want identity. Identity with what?
K: No, lady, I am asking you, when you say identity - with what? No, no, I am asking you a question, lady, you want to be identified, don't you? To have identity. With what? With the earth?
Q: Because sir, every human being wants to prove that I am better than the other one.
K: Quite right.
Q: That’s the reason.
K: Now, look, would you listen for a few minutes sir? The world has divided itself - right? - Europe, America, Russia, India, Muslim. Right? That's a fact. Who has divided it?
Q: Human beings.
K: Don't make casual remarks, sir, because it is not an entertainment. I am not here to entertain you. So if you will kindly listen, I am asking you a question: who has divided the world into this? Sir, would you listen quietly for a minute? Has not man done this? You have done it because you say, 'I am a Hindu', or a Muslim, or a Sikh, or some other sect. Right? Who has done all this? Man, hasn't he? Man. Man wants security, so he says, 'I belong to Buddhism,' - right? - 'that gives me identity, that gives me strength, that gives me a sense of a place where I can stay'. Right? So what is the basis of this? You understand my question, sir? Why do we do this? Is it for security? Because if I lived as a Hindu in a world of Muslims, they would kick me around. Right? Or if I lived as a Protestant in Rome I would find it awfully difficult - right? - because Rome is the centre of all Catholicism. Right? So I am saying to you sir, if I may politely request you, who has done all this? This colossal mess. You understand? You? Right? You have done it, he has done it, and she has done it. And what will you do about it? Just talk about it? So we will stop. That's all. You don't want to act. You say, 'Let's carry on'.
Q: The other sir, you observed that you have no intention whatever to help us. But we find that you are here to help us and we find help from you
K: What, sir?
C: He says you have no intention to help us, but when we are here we find that you help us. How does that happen?
K: Too bad! I don't want to help anybody. It's wrong to help another, except surgically, food, and so on. The speaker is not your leader. Right? He has said it a thousand times all over Europe, America and here.
Q: You may not help us, but you make us understand things.
K: No, we are having a conversation together, in that conversation we begin to see things clearly for ourself, for you. Therefore nobody is helping you, it is a conversation.
Q: Sir, my question is, why do we...
K: Sir, sir, did you hear what I said? Yes, sir, but did you hear what I said? That the speaker is not here to help you in any way. Right sir? He is not your guru, you are not his follower, all that the speaker says is an abomination. Right sir? That's all. Sir, sir, sir, half a moment, he is there.
Q: Why is there so much cruelty in nature that one being has to eat another in order to survive?
K: Is that your question, sir?
Q: Yes sir.
K: A tiger lives on smaller things. Right? So the big things eat little things. Right? And you are asking, nature is very - what was the word?
K: Nature is cruel.
Q: No sir, why is there so much of cruelty in nature?
K: First of all why is there so much cruelty in human beings? Not in nature, of course, that is natural, perhaps. Why are you so cruel? Not say, 'There is cruelty in nature', why are human beings cruel?
Q: I want to get rid of my pain and sorrow. When someone hurts me I also
C: I want to get rid of my pain and sorrow, therefore if anybody hurts me I also react or respond in a similar manner.
K: Sir, have you ever considered that all human beings suffer? All human beings in the world. Right?
Q: I know, sir, I suffer
K: You are a human being, aren't you?
Q: Yes sir.
K: So I am saying, all human beings suffer whether they live in Russia, America, China, India, Pakistan, whatever - all human beings suffer.
Q: Yes sir.
K: Now how do you solve that suffering?
Q: I beg your pardon, sir.
C: How do you solve that suffering?
Q: I am interested in my own suffering. (Laughter)
C: He said, I am interested in my own suffering.
K: What are you doing about it?
Q: I have come to be enlightened by you.
C: I have come here to be enlightened by you.
K: Ah! (Laughter)
What shall we do together, sir? What shall we do together - together, not I help you or you help me - what shall we do together to rid of sorrow?
Q: I don’t know sir.
K: Don't you really know?
Q: I beg your pardon.
K: Don't you really know? . Q: I don't know.
K: Are you sure?
Q: Yes sir.
K: Be careful answering, sir, this is a very serious question. Are you sure you don't know how to be free of sorrow?
Q: Yes, sir. I am sure I do not know.
K: You don't know.
Q: I don’t know how to get rid of pain and sorrow.
K: Just a minute, just a minute. Remain in that state. Would you listen sirs, please. He asked a very serious question, he said, 'I really don't know how to be free of sorrow'. Right? 'I don't know'. When you say, 'I don't know', is it that you are waiting to know? You understand my question, sir?
Q: Yes sir.
K: I don't know but I may be expecting some kind of answer, therefore when I am expecting I step out of not knowing. He hasn't understood.
C: He says, when we are expecting an answer we have moved away from the field of not knowing, in quotes. And he says, stay in not knowing.
Q: Stay in not knowing. What does that mean?
C: He says, what does that mean?
K: I will tell you what it means. I am not helping you, I am not helping you. Sir, that is a very serious matter when you say I am not helping you because we have been helped for so many thousands of years. Never mind. When you say, 'I don't know', what does that mean? I don't know what Mars is - you know Mars, the star - I don't know. So do I go to another to find out?
Q: No, I don’t
K: Sir, I don't know what Mars is. He is an astrophysicist. I go to him to find out what Mars is. For god's sake, sir.
Q: But I am not interested in Mars. (Laughter)
K: I know you are not interested in Mars, sir, nor am I, but I am taking that as an example. I don't know what Mars is, and I go to an astrophysicist (inaudible) and I go to him and say, 'Sir, tell me what Mars is', and he tells me Mars is various combinations of gas and all the rest of it. And I say, 'That is not Mars. Your description of Mars is different from Mars'. Right? So I ask you sir, most respectfully, when you say, 'I don't know', what do you mean by that? I don't know. I am not waiting for an answer - right? - which may be crooked, which may be false, which may be illusory, therefore I am not expecting. Are you in that state? I don't know.
Q: We are stunned when we remain in that state.
K: Remain in that state. I don't know how to swim the Ganga.
Q: I can’t do anything about it.
K: You can't. When you don't know what is the cause of suffering - right? - how can it be ended you don't know. Right sir? So remain in that state and find out. Sir, just a minute, sir. When you put a question, you expect an answer, don't you? Be honest, be simple. So you expect an answer from a book, from another person, or from some philosopher, and so on. Right? Somebody to tell you the answer. Right? Would you put a question and listen to the question? You understand what I am saying? I put to you a question - I've forgotten what it was, let me think of another. Why has Karshi become so important? Right? You understand that question? Why has Karshi, which is this place, this land, why do you consider it important? Answer it, sir.
Q: Because of its ancient temples.
K: Right. In Jerusalem, in Israel, you know, they have found a building 8,000 years old, would you go and worship there?
Q: Because this place also the old sadus, the old gurus, have lived here.
K: So they have too there, in Israel, the have gurus, priests and kings - 8,000 years old, why don't you go there and worship it?
Q: There are people there to worship. (Laughter)
K: You are not thinking, sir. You are quite right sir. So, when you put a question would you wait for the question to reveal itself? You understand? I am asking you, most politely, I put a question, I know if I can understand the question properly I will find the answer. Right? So the answer may be in the question. You are not listening. You are bored, are you, sir?
Q: Not at all.
K: Would you experiment with what I am saying?
K: Will you really do it? That is, if I put a question to you, don't try to find an answer but find out if you have understood the question, the depth of the question, or the superficiality of the question, the meaninglessness of the question. Right? Would you look at the question first, take time. Or you are ready to answer. So I am suggesting, sir, if you put a question to the speaker, the speaker says the question itself has vitality, energy, not the answer, because the answer is in the question. Right? Find out. Sir, did you hear what I said? Have you understood what I said, sir? Don't be nervous. If you say, 'Go to hell', it's all right. I am asking you a very simple fact: you ask me a question, and I say to you, in the question is the answer. The question contains the answer.
K: Would you listen, sir, please. You can ask your question afterwards, sir. Will you do that?
K: Don't say meekly, yes. Let's find out sir, it's very important. Yes, sir? You are belching?
Q: An intelligent mind can put the right question. I think I am not intelligent at all; how can I put the right question?
C: He says, an intelligent mind can put a right question. I feel I am not intelligent at all so how can I ask the right question?
K: You can't! (Laughter) But you can find out why you are not intelligent. I can find out why I am not intelligent. He is intelligent, I am not, why? Is intelligence dependent on comparison? You understand sir? No, they don't. Sir, did you listen to my question?
C: Many times we find an answer to our question, but we require somebody else's approval of that answer.
K: So the answer is not important but approval of another is important?
Q: A correct answer is important therefore approval is important.
C: He says - not the lady who asked the question but another gentleman - says, the correct answer is important and therefore approval of the correct answer is required.
K: By who? By your friends who are equally unintelligent? By whom do you want the approval? Public opinion? The Governor? The Prime Minister? Or the high priests? From whom are you wanting approval?
K: Sorry, you don't think at all, you just repeat, repeat, repeat.
Q: Going to the other question, I remain with the question that I don’t know, but it is tiresome, to be with the question, to find out.
C: He says that I remain with the situation 'I don't know' but it is tiresome.
K: Why is it tiresome?
Q: I am try to find out an it...
K: Don't try to find out. Here is a question: why has man - you and the world - why have we made such a mess of the world? A mess of our lives, a mess of other people's lives? You understand, sir, it is a mess, it's a confusion, why?
Q: Because of
K: Madam, would you kindly listen for a minute? I am talking to that gentleman. Why have human beings throughout the world made such a mess of the world? You understand, sir? Why? Don't - listen to the question, go into the question. You understand? Sir, have you held ever in your hand a marvellous jewel? Priceless jewel. You look at it, don't you? You look at it, see the intricacies of it, how beautifully it is put together, what extraordinary skill has gone into it - right? - the silversmith must have marvellous hands. That jewel is very important. Right? You look at it, you cherish it, you put it away and occasionally look at it, don't you?
Q: I want to have it.
K: You have it in your hand, sir. For god's sake. I am saying you look at it. You have a marvellous picture, painted by somebody or other, and you look at it. It's in your room, it's yours, you don't just hang it there and forget, you look at it. In the same way, if I ask you a question, look at it, listen to the question. But we are so quick to answer it, so impatient. So I am suggesting, sir, most respectfully, look at it, take time, weigh it, see the beauty of the question - or it may be an utterly unimportant question. Right? Do it, sir. Then you will find the question itself has a tremendous energy.
C: Sir, he wants to ask a question.
Q: Why we do not change.
C: Why do we not change? That is the question.
K: Why, sir? Why don't you change?
Q: I don’t know, but I don’t change.
K: Are you satisfied where you are?
K: Then change. (Laughter)
Q: I would like to ask a question please. The question of violence that we were discussing. There is a teacher in the class and some children are naughty and to end the naughtiness he has to punish them. Should he go through with the punishment?
C: That is your question? There is a teacher in a class in which some boy is naughty, in order to put it right he has to punish him. Should he go through that excise of punishment?
Q: And violence.
C: Which means violence.
K: What do you mean by the word 'violence'?
K: Don't be quick, sir. What do you mean by violence? Hitting each other? Would you call that violence? I hit you - just listen sir, please - I hit you, you hit me back. That is a form of violence, isn't it? A grown-up person hits his child - that's a form of violence. Killing another is a form of violence. Harassing another - harassing, you know what that word means? - that's a form of violence. Trying to imitate another, imitate, is a form of violence. Right? Would you agree to that? Imitate, conform to the pattern of another, that's violence. Right? Right, sir? Sir, sir, sir. Are you listening to what I am saying? So I am asking you, psychological violence and physical violence. Right? So how will you stop it? You - don't say the people - you, how will you stop it? That's it. Have you listened to what I have said? Sir, please have the courtesy, politeness, to listen to somebody else's question. Right? Don't always say, keep everybody out, but with your own problem.
Q: Why is there variety in nature?
K: Why are you bothered about nature? Why are you concerned with nature?
Q: I am seeing the variety.
K: Don't you see the variety here?
Q: Even outside I see it.
K: What are you going to do about it?
Q: I want to know why it’s there.
K: Sir, I request you kindly to study yourself first. You understand? To know yourself first. But you know about everything outside you, but you know nothing about yourself. Right? So, this has been an old question, sir. The Greeks have put it in their own way, the Egyptians, the ancient Hindus have said too: know yourself first. Right? Will you start with that?
Q: Sir, I am always putting this question to myself, why am I in the bondage of physical pain. I am always asking this question to myself but I am not getting any answers.
C: I am always putting this question to myself, why I am in the bondage of physical pain. I keep on asking this question but I don't get any answer.
K: You may be going to the wrong doctor. (Laughter) Sir, I know people who go from doctor to doctor to doctor - right? - they have plenty of money, so they trot around from one doctor to another. Do you do that? Or is it psychological pain?
Q: Physical as well as psychological.
K: Which is important?
Q: I beg your pardon?
C: Which is important?
K: Which is the greater pain?
Q: When the physical pain is extreme it is surely important.
C: When the physical pain is extreme, surely it is the physical pain that's important.
K: Yes sir, I know all that. But I am asking you sir, politely, to what pain do you give importance?
Q: I find myself...
K: You haven't answered my question. To what importance do you give?
Q: At the moment when I am suffering, I give importance to that.
K: You haven't answered my question, sir, have you? I am asking you, which is more important the physiological pain or the physical pain?
Q: What do you mean by psychological pain? (Laughter)
K: I will tell you. Pain of fear, pain of loneliness, pain of anxiety, pain of sorrow, and so on - all that is the psyche. Now to what do you give importance? To the psyche or to physical pain?
K: Do you really?
Q: Yes sir.
K: Are you being obstinate, sir? So if you give importance to the psychological pain who is going to be the doctor?
K: What do you mean 'I'? You are the pain. You are not different from 'I'. 'I' is made up of pain, anxiety, boredom, loneliness, fear, pleasure - all that is the 'I'. Well sir, I've answered it.
Sir, there is a question here - sorry it is all rather messy.
K: You don't listen to anybody do you? Why bother to listen to me?
Q: Sir, I have understood the urgency to remain aware, why is it so that I remain few times in the day aware?
C: If I have understood that there is urgency to be aware all the time, how is it that I remain in that state only for a very short while during the day?
K: Because you don't understand what it means to be aware.
Sir, here is a question. Gosh, need I go into all this muck?
Question: It’s a fact that the various centres of KFI constantly and continuously stress and spread, saying that they are the centre of K’s teaching. So now when we have, namely, Buddhist teaching, Christ teaching and Krishnamurti teaching, are these so-called teachings of K going to meet the same fate as has happened with Buddha and Christ?
You have understood the question?
K: Are you bored with the question? I don't mind. I am bored with it myself.
Sir, K has thought a great deal about the word 'teaching'. We thought of using the word 'work' - ironworks, big building work, hydroelectric work - you understand? So I thought 'work' is very, very common. Right? So he though he might use the word 'teaching', but it is not important, the word. Right? Your question is, will the teachings of the Buddha - which nobody knows, I have asked them, the original teachings of the Buddha nobody knows; and Christ may exist or may not have existed. That's a tremendous problem, whether he existed at all. We have discussed with great scholars about that - I won't go into it. And will K's teaching also disappear like the rest? Right? You have understood the question? Right? Right sir?
K: Of course you have not said it; somebody has written it to me, therefore it is interesting. The questioner says - probably you also think - that when K goes, as he must go, depart, what will happen to the teaching? Will it go like the Buddha's teaching, which is corrupt, you know what is happening, will the same fate await you? Right? You have understood the question? It depends upon you. Right? Not upon somebody else, it depends upon you: how you live it, how you think about it, what it means to you. If it means nothing except words then it will go the way of the rest. Right? If it means something very deep to you, to you personally, then it won't be corrupted. Right? You understand sir? It won't be corrupted. So it's up to you, not up to the centres and information centres and all the rest of that business. It depends upon you, whether you live the teaching, or not.
Q: Hasn’t the truth its own power?
K: It has, if you let it alone. (Laughter)
Q: Sir, that question was put by me. May I clarify the question – what I mean by that? This question was written by me
Q: and was sent to you yesterday. Because I was not sure that if I did the authorities of this place they would sign this question to you. That is why I put it in an envelope because when you have a question, your people they do not hand it to you. That is a fact. So what I did was, I asked somebody, would you please go up there and deliver this question in an envelope. May I clear this question?
K: Yes, do whatever you like, sir.
Q: I wanted to know and I have been trying to know this for some time, in Bombay also I put this question
K: Yes sir, tell me.
Q: but I was not given the answer. That is why I put this question.
K: Yes sir, what is the question?
Q: Now, my question is this: you have so many times repeated for 70 years that you do not convince anybody of anything – number one – you are not a teacher, you don’t teach anything to anybody. Now I say that the centres of KFI – whose president you are, and you are still living, you have not died
K: I'm glad. (Laughter)
Q: Now they say that here come – they invite the public, ‘Here are the teachings of Krishnamurti. Here are the teachings of Krishnamurti, and you study here what he has to say. He has discovered so many things. Please come here and try to study and we will provide you with a video or whatever it is.’ When you say you work as a mirror, when I use the magnifying glass, does the magnifying glass help me? It does help me, the light is helping me.
Q: Are they not helping? Are these things not your teachings? They are evidently your teachings. So there is no harm if you say you are a teacher because you are teaching something, you are clearing something. You yourself say that you work as a mirror; anything which works as a mirror, definitely that mirror is helping me.
K: Yes, sir.
Q: That is my question.
K: So, what is the question? (Laughter)
Sir, in all his talks, K has emphasised the fact that he is merely a mirror. Right sir? That he is merely a mirror reflecting what your life is. Right? And he has also said you can break up that mirror if you have seen yourself very clearly. The mirror is not important. But what has happened throughout the world - the little world - they all want to be on the band-wagon. You know what that word means? All want to share in the circus.
So I say, please don't bother, just listen to the teaching; if somebody wants to do something, form a little centre in Gujarat, let him do it, but he has no power to say that he represents K, that is a follower. He can say anything he likes, he is free to do what he likes. We are not imposing on anybody that they should do this, do that. Say, for instance, he starts, buys videos and all the rest of it, in his house he collects a few friends. That is his affair. We are not saying, 'Don't do this, do that'. If anybody did that, I would say, 'Sorry, don't do it'. But they like to do this, they like to be interpreters, gurus in their little way. You know all the game you all play. So if you want to do that, you are perfectly welcome to do it. But the Foundation - unfortunately I happen to belong to it, or fortunately - the Foundation says you are free to do what you like. You understand, sir? Buy books, read books, burn books of K, do anything you like. It is your hand. If you want to live it, live it; if you don't want to live it, it is all right, it is your business. Right? Is this clear for once and for all? That the Foundation has no authority over your life, to tell you what to do, or what not to do. Or to say, this is the centre from which all radiation goes, like a radio station or a television station, we are not that. All that we are saying is, here is something, maybe original, maybe not original, here is something for you to look at. Take time to read it, take time to understand it. If you are not interested, throw it away. It doesn't matter. You have wasted 25 rupees, that's all. But if you like to live that way, live it; if you don't, just drop it. Don't make a lot of noise around it. You understand what I am saying, sir? Don't make a circus about it, dance and a song - that I have understood, you haven't, and I'll tell you all about it. You understand what I say sir? Right sir?
So, it is time to stop. Now, if I may ask, what have you got out of this morning's talk, discussion? Nothing or something?
Q: Sir, looking through the question still – I am with the question but thinking stops itself.
C: Looking at the question, I am still with the question but the thinking stops.
K: Yes sir, good! I am just asking, sir, what have you all got out, flowered in you after all this morning? Like a flower overnight blooms - right? - what has bloomed in you? What has come out of you?
Q: That we should have the habit of thinking together.
K: Did you really think together?
Q: Yes, I did.
K: Together, you and I - or you were talking to yourself?
Q: I was talking to myself also.
K: Yes. So I am just asking you - you don't have to tell the speaker anything. I am just asking, politely, if I may: we have met for over an hour, talked together, said many things according to our opinion, at the end of the journey of this morning, where are you? Where we started? Where we ended? Or is there a new flowering? That's all sir. That's all. I am not going to say, 'Oh, you haven't, or you have'. That would be impudence on my part. Right sir.
May we get up presently?