Home - KFA

...himself. He knows the hurts, he is aware of the isolating process of that hurt because he doesn't want to be hurt more, therefore there is resistance, there is isolation and from that isolation there is activity - logical, illogical, stupid and all the rest of it, and that activity strengthens him more and more in that hurt, that wall. Now we are...

So what is one then to do? Please don't answer it. The mind realises all the activity it indulges in or is forced to do, all its activity is the movement within the consciousness with its content. And realising this, what is the mind to do? Can it ever go beyond this limited consciousness?

JK: That is the real point. We have often discussed this, whether there is anything beyond thought. Not something holy, sacred - I am not talking of that. I am talking: is there an activity which is not touched by thought? We are saying there is. And that activity is the highest form of intelligence.

K: Oh no. No, then activity may begin. Our activity is completely destructive when it is self-centred - obviously. Look what is happening, sir, all over the world.

To me it seems to be fairly clear that to observe there must be freedom, not only the outward phenomenon, but also to observe what is going on within ourselves, to observe without any prejudice, without taking any side, but to examine very closely, freely the whole process of our thinking and our activity, our pleasures, fears, and all the things that we have built around ourselves, not only outwardly but in ourselves as a form of resistance, compulsive demands, escapes, and so on.

...which has not been touched by thought. And can the mind see its activity because the observer is the observed, just to observe the activity, not try to change it, not to reform it, not to control it, just to observe it, and see what it discovers in the field of the known and be totally responsible for that. That means not to let the knowledge be...

So meditation is the emptying of the mind of the activity of the self. And you cannot empty the mind of the activity of the self by any practice, by any method, or by saying 'Tell me what to do'. Therefore if you are really interested in this, concerned, you have to find out for yourself your own activity of the self as the you - the habits, the...

Please bear in mind that we are thinking together, not merely listening to the speaker, but be concerned with our responsibility, with our activity of our minds and our hearts about all this.

K: That is all I have. Thinking, feeling, hating, loving - you know all that. The activity of the mind. I know that very well, you don't have to tell me.

...they the heathens, the communists and so on, and so on, so on. So the activity of the self is the 'me' as the observer, the activity of the self, the 'me', as the controller and the controlled, the activity of the self as will, the activity of the self demanding, desiring, experience. Right? As long as any of those activities exist, meditation...

...understand? We are going against the whole current of civilisations, cultures. So is love personal and impersonal? I love my wife and I really don't care about what is happening, about something. You follow? I don't care what happens. My love is limited to that one person. Please, sir, this is very serious, you understand? Is that love? Or love,...

So we are saying, asking: is love desire? You answer that question for yourself. Desire, we said, is sensation, and thought giving shape to that sensation. The remembrance of pleasure and the demand for that pleasure, more and more and more. So is love pleasure? Is love jealousy? Possessiveness, attachment, fear? Or is love something totally -...

...Yes. I'm being aware of it. I am aware that I want to possess. And in that possession there is domination. And possession and domination, does that contain love - you understand? So I discover it does not. So I will not possess. You understand? I can't possess, because my interest, my drive, my intensity is to find out this thing called love. So I...

...another. And is it possible to have a relationship with another in which there is no friction whatsoever? And that is possible only when I understand what love is, and the understanding of what love is, is the denial of what love is not. Love is not - as we went into the other day - anger, jealousy, ambition, greed, self-centred activity, you...

...there is so much to talk about this, today and tomorrow. I want to cram everything in these two days. So, can you listen to that statement: where there is attachment of any kind, any dependency, any memory of pleasure, it's not love. Now, if one asked you, do you love your wife or your friend, then you will say, of course! And perhaps here in this...

So one asks at the end of it: what is love? You follow? Are we going along together? Is love desire? Is love sex? Is love attachment? Is love being concerned about oneself eternally? Is love jealousy? And can there be love when there is fear? Can there be love when there is only the search for pleasure? You understand all this? So we're going to...

...Or we say, 'Yes, I have listened' - finished. 'I have already listened to you for twenty years, so over. I am not going to listen to you any more'. You don't say that to a child, do you, whom you love? He wants to tell you something. He may be telling it to you ten times, he has already told you, but the next time he says something you listen. You...

K: Sir, if you have no love then you are a lost soul, but why do you have children then? Having children, what am I to do? You are not facing the problem! I have a child, a son, who is growing up. I want him to be a totally different kind of human - just listen, sir - I want him to be a totally different kind of man, not aggressive, not violent,...

So one questions, where there is motive can love exist? And where there is ambition, whether in the physical world, or in the psychological world - ambition to be on top of everything, to be a great success, to have power, religiously, or physically, where there is aggression, competitiveness, jealousy, can love exist? Obviously not. But yet, we...

...I am doing that sir, please. You are finding out what is not love. Attachment is not love. I have just discovered that. It is a tremendous discovery for me. Because I have so far accepted attachment as love, and you come and say, 'Find out, look at it'. I look and I find yes, you are perfectly right, because in attachment there is fear, and fear...

...No, sir. See it. The moment it is a conditioned response there is fear involved in it and that is transmitted to the animal; but if it is intelligence - must I go into it, personally it's not important. I have faced a tiger - well, never mind - leave all that alone. So you find out for yourself what is operating. If it is fear then its action is...

...thought is, as we said, the expression, or the response of memory, which is the past. Thought pursues both pleasure and sustains fear. There has been a pleasurable moment yesterday and thought demands that it shall continue today. And there has been pain yesterday, and thinking about that pain and not wanting that pain again repeated today is the...

We also talked about fear - whether man can completely free himself totally from fear. We pointed out that it is possible: as there is an ending to sorrow there is an ending to fear. And this morning, if we may, we would like to talk about love, and also a very deep problem which is death because we are concerned with living which includes dying...

K: So, can there be observation of this fact, which I've called fear because I have recognised it, the mind has recognised it, because it has had fear before. So through recognition and association it says, 'This is fear'.

...and that movement has created all this chaos - total chaos, not just patchy, but complete disorder - when it realises that, what takes place, actually? You are not frightened, there is no fear. Listen to it carefully: there is no fear. Fear is the idea brought about by an abstraction. You understand? You have made a picture of ending; and...

...you are free to look. And you cannot look if you separate yourself from that which you are looking at. Then you have complete energy to look. It is only when there is no attention that fear comes into being. You understand? When there is complete attention which is complete, total energy then there is no fear, is there? It's only the inattentive...

So is the mind aware of this whole content of what we have said, all this morning from pleasure, fear, memory, joy, attachment, all that? And thought has created this confused, miserable, mad world.

Where there is fear man inevitably seeks something that will protect him, safeguard him, that will hold him in a sense of certainty, complete security, because he is basically frightened. And out of that fear we invent gods. Out of that fear we invent all the rituals, all the circus that goes on in the name of religion. All the temples in this...

...can go much further. Which is, you eliminate conflict altogether - inwardly as well as outwardly. Right? So, when you observe fear, are you observing it as a separate person and fear is not part of you and therefore you are in conflict with it? But when the thinker is the thought, the observer is the observed, what takes place? You understand my...

So as we were saying, fear exists only in relationship with some other thing, otherwise there is no fear. Related to the past, in memory of the past pain and not wanting that, the repetition of that pain tomorrow or today. Relation to something that has happened. And what is fear? You have had pain yesterday, that is obvious, you have had it. Or...

JK: Then I either contribute to the whole mess, or keep out of it. That is not to be - to be at peace, to have order in oneself. I will come to that. I am going too fast.

...all want to end war, at least some people do. And pacem in terris, that is, peace on earth, in Latin, is not possible, apparently, in this world, in spite of demonstrations, in spite of all the preaching of the priests and religious books and so on, we can never have peace in this world apparently. And we never ask if one can live peacefully in...

...years or more. Religions have also, except perhaps Buddhism and Hinduism, have created wars - a hundred heretics, burnt them, destroyed them. And so man has lived on this earth without any peace. And to live in peace appears to be almost impossible - to live without conflict, without aggression, not only in personal relationships, but also with...

...pointing out the other day, mankind has suffered thousands of wars, wars that seem to have no end. We have left it to the politicians all over the world to bring about peace, and what they are doing, if you have followed them, will never bring peace. We are all preparing for war. When you prepare you are going to have some kind of blow up, whether...

And we are asking deeply, if you are serious at all, whether you and I, and those of us who are involved in organisations, can live at peace with each other. Peace requires a great deal of intelligence, not just demonstrations against a particular form of war, against a nuclear or atom bomb and so on. Those are the products of minds, brains that...

...have talked about a great many things. We are together going into very complex problems this morning: why human beings have not been able to live at peace within themselves and so peace with the world. Why our daily life is in such confusion, conflict and misery and sometimes joy, why is it, after all these thousands of years, man has not found...

We were talking about peace: why human beings who have lived on this earth for so many thousands and thousands of years have had no peace at all. There have been innumerable wars and probably there will be more wars. And why with all the technological knowledge we have acquired, and all the protestations of religions about peace, pacem in terris,...

And if one may again point out without boring you, that this is not a lecture about religion or philosophy, or what is peace and so on. It's not how you should think or what you think but rather together, you and the speaker, enquire into this very complex question of what is religion and if it is possible not only to have peace in the world but...

Probably since the beginning of man human beings have had no peace at all. And there have been a great many organisations, including this organisation, to bring about peace in the world - pacem in terris. But there has been no peace. For various obvious reasons: nationalism, which is glorified tribalism, various opposing religions, divisions of...

...you ever enquired into what is silence? What is silence? What is peace? Is peace between two wars? That's what's happening: what we call peace, it's between two wars. This war, like the next war, is to end all wars. Do you understand that? You have understood that phrase? This war, like the next war, is to end all wars. That is, is peace between...

So I am saying myself, this being crippled psychologically can that be made whole? That is the question, which needs action. I can't sit down and say I will make it whole. Or go off into a monastery. It can't be done. It needs action, I have to do something. Right?

We say our action is based on, one of our activities is based on 'what should be'. Right? I am asking you, why you have invented the 'should be'.

So we are trying to find out if there is an action not based on the principle of ideals, on desire, on will, not spontaneous - that word is rather a dangerous word because nobody is spontaneous, one thinks one can be spontaneous but there is no such thing because one must be totally free to be spontaneous. Do you follow? So is there such action?...

So, what we are talking is action, because life is action, not saying one part of life is action only, the whole of living is action. And that action is broken up, and this breaking up of action is this process of memory with its thoughts and isolation. Right? Is that clear?

Before asking what shall we do, what action shall we take, we must first examine the causes. When we understand the causes, from that action takes place. But most of us are so eager to act, to do something about this mess, and we join groups, become social reformers, join the communist party, or the socialist party, or whatever party politically...

So can there be action - please listen to this - can there be action without will? Now, again traditionally you are brought up on the action of will - 'I must, I must not' - and therefore the 'must' and 'must not', the 'do' and the 'don't' is a form of resistance. You follow? And therefore that action is born of will and therefore limited. Now,...

...you are acting according to a concept, belief, a conclusion, a principle, an ideal - you follow? - find out. And when you find out you will see that's not action, it's either a continuity of a dead thing, or a future thing which is not now. Right? Now, if you see that very clearly, then what is action? Action then is what you are doing now. Right?...

...are not discussing, going into that. We are saying an action born out of knowledge, knowledge being that which we have accumulated both biologically as well as psychologically, when that action is born from that which has already been experienced, known, that action must inevitably lead to further illusion. And we were saying that there is an...

So our life is disorderly, contradictory, and where there is effort, contradiction, disorder, there must be an action which is not sane; and it is only in sanity there is security for the brain. But as it cannot find it, it chooses one action which it hopes will give security. Haven't you noticed all this? Probably not, you have not gone into this...

K: It may use thought to explain, but it acts. Before action was based on thought, now when there is insight there is only action. Why do you want thought? Because insight is rational therefore action is rational.

Krishnamurti: Yes. I think that is affection, that is love. When you talk to my waking consciousness, it is hard, clever, subtle, brittle. And you penetrate that, say, all right, keep your own beastly little stuff, and you penetrate it with your look, with your affection, with all that feeling you have. That operates, not anything else.

...also I would like to point out: I think we don't listen; we don't really try to find out what the other person is trying to say. And listening requires certain attention, care, affection. If I want to understand what you are saying I must listen to you, not block myself all the way, all the time. I must care for what you are saying, I must have...

...Ah, not we have to love. That is not an action of will. If there is to be an understanding of 'what is', and 'what is ' may be violence, greed, brutality, cruelty or affection or joy - awareness implies great care in looking. When you have a baby don't you - the mother cares infinitely with affection, gets up at two, three or four o'clock in the...

...Do think about it a minute. We don't understand what relationship means. Because I come along and say, look, let us talk as two friends, which implies care, affection, love, consideration, involvement, commitment, and you sit there and say, 'You go on talking, but...' You would never say that to your wife or husband or girlfriend or boyfriend...

K: ...you protect it with affection, taking it in your lap, cuddling him or her, and holding his hand, you make him feel that he is loved, that he is cared for. That gives him a feeling, here is somebody who is looking after me, and there is security here.

K: That's it, sir. There is not even affection to understand something. If you and I had affection - if you had affection and I had affection for you, and I say, look, for god's sake, do look at this, and because you have affection for me, or love for me, and what I say becomes important to you.

So we are saying, observe without direction, attachment, or aggression, or your violence. Observe it without any motive, direction, desire, just to observe it, and in that very observation there is an ending of it. And therefore you are inviting death while living. You follow? I wonder if you understand this? Not commit suicide, that's another...

K: No, just sir. This is really for half an hour, do please put your minds to this, I beg of you. Are you different from your aggression? Obviously you are not. You are aggression, it is part of you.

...in our relationship when you are nothing? You understand? You know what it means to be nothing? No ambition, which doesn't mean you vegetate, no competition, no aggression, no resistance, no barriers built by hurt - you are absolutely nothing. Then what is it to be related to another? Have you ever thought about all this, or is it all so...

THIRD QUESTION: How does one meet aggression and psychological attack from a close relative from whom one cannot escape? (Laughter)

K: Oh, no. No, no, no, no, you have not understood what we have said. Both arise, love and aggression, they have no formulas. Really, that is not what we are talking about.

...me, is that a form of vanity? It's like a man who is vain, as most of us are, and out of that vanity we try to be humble. Is that humility? A man who is full of aggression, violence, tries to be modest. You understand? It's absurd, it's lost its meaning. Whereas, a man who is aggressive realises, sees what aggression has done in this world and all...

K: No, I am showing you something. There is no experience when the observer is not. Experience implies a recognition. Right? Recognition means that it has already been experienced, stored up in the memory as an experience and remembered, which is the observer. Now when the observer is not what takes place?

K: Yes. Sir, I had an experience yesterday, pleasant or unpleasant, and I carry it over today, the brain carries it over today. Can that experience of yesterday, pleasurable or painful, end with yesterday? Otherwise it is a continuity of the past.

K: That's right, sir. I think, my experience is, as long as I remain a Hindu I am completely secure - that's my experience, I am that experience and that's what destroys biological survival. Can you give that up?

...American girls and boys, and it is now spreading throughout the world, have sex very early. Don't be shy, this is happening. They want to have all the experience immediately - swimming, anything - experience - skiing. So they want, as they are young, they want to experience everything at once in a short time. Right? So as they grow older, see what...

So when the brain and the mind and the body are absolutely quiet, that is, when there is no entity that is measuring all the time, comparing - 'I have had this experience yesterday and I'd like to have it more, or I would like to have further experience,' which is all measurement.

K: Not experience. I doubt everybody's experience, including my own. But I am saying let's discuss that, not experience, then you are lost: my experience, your experience, but what is the relationship of the man who loves, in the sense we are talking about, and the man who hates? Just look at it sir. How can there be?

K: I have experienced something yesterday that has left a mark. That is knowledge and with that knowledge I meet the next experience. So the next experience is translated in terms of the old and therefore that experience is never new.

So will you give up psychological securities to which you hold? Your belief, your dogma, your tradition, your prejudices, 'My experience is better than your experience', 'I know, you don't know'? You follow? All that, can you give it up?

...- there are ten different conclusions, opinions, expressions. Now what is one to do? Which is the right thing in this? Your opinion or my opinion, your experience or my experience, how do we find out the truth of any matter?

K: And also, sir, the question arises, can one actually experience something which is not experienceable? We use the word 'experience' so easily - 'realise', 'experience', 'attain', 'self-realisation', all these things - can one actually experience the feeling of supreme ecstasy? Let's take that for the moment, that word. Can one experience it?...

K: Who invented exams? (Laughter) The Chinese? The Mandarins? I believe they were the original people who kind of invented this monstrous system.

K: That's what I'm I am coming to that, madame. Look at it, sir. He is attracted to it, attracted to all that, and he won't listen to my talk. He kind of avoids me. Right? Don't you know all this, as parents? No?

JK: Yes, it is the activity of thought. Now if I consciously meditate, practise, do all this kind of what I call nonsense, then you are making the brain conform to another series of patterns.

K: Are you saying no? When are you then generous? When are you feeling affectionate, kind, generous, sympathetic? Or do you never feel it? Or only occasionally?

K: No, but that's not I'm saying, the source of fear of every kind that human beings have is born from thought. Will you listen to that statement, as you would listen when I say I really love you? Because it's too simple, your mind immediately says, 'No, that's too damn simple, it's not, it is much more complicated than that'.

So what will bring us together? Belief won't, authority of any kind is rejected, the reward by another as a means for you to change is also rejected. And if you say you are going to be punished in heaven for not obeying, you say 'Go away, don't be silly', and you pass him. So what will make us come together?

...when given an opportunity it breaks through. Which is it? I've seen so many people in - I've lived a long time - from the age of fifteen I've seen this happen, with people of my own age - begin beautiful, you know, and gradually finish, destructive, cruel, brutal, self-centred, ugly, drunk.

K: If I don't hold my anger I am afraid I might kill somebody. Look, look. Before you kill somebody, try to find out if you can resolve the anger. To control it is to suppress it. To say, 'I must not be angry' is to create the opposite, and therefore a conflict between 'must not be' and the fact that I am. Right? Or if you try to escape from it,...

...what happens when you when the observer is the observed. You understand? When the anger is me, then what takes place? Have you enquired into this or you just say, 'Yes, I am the observer, the observed'? Meaningless. But to find out or experience, go into it and find out if anger is always different from you. That has been the tradition, that has...

I am anger, am I not? Anger is not something separate from me. I am greed, envy, anxiety. Right? I like to think that is something separate over which I have control. But the actual fact is I am all that - even the controller is me. Right? So there is no division between greed, anger, jealousy, and so on - that is me, that is the observer. Right?...

K: How do I know that anger is a fact and the opinion about anger is a conclusion. Right? Don't you know? The opinion, the judgement about anger is a conclusion. And the fact I'm angry is a fact. For the love of god.

So the hurt is not different from me, the 'me' is the image, and that image gets hurt, so I am that image. Like anger is not different from me, I am anger. I might think I am different but in actuality I am anger. So do you see the truth of it - not the idea of it? the actual truth that when you are angry that anger is you.

K: You are anger at that moment. You are envy at that moment. And so there are many, many moments you are. Right? You are your anger, you are your name, you are your bank account, if unfortunately you have a bank account, you are your family you are your society, you are your god - you are, you invented all this. So, there is no 'you' separate...

We are saying: what takes place when the observer is the observed which is anger? You can test this out for yourself. Don't accept a thing the speaker is saying, because if you accept, repeat, then you are second-hand human beings, which you are. So, please have the courtesy, the dignity, the intensity not to accept anything, psychologically. So,...

K: Sir, no, not my relationship with truth. I am angry. Right? Suppose I am angry - there is anger, not I am angry - there is anger. Can I, is there an observation of that feeling, that reaction, without the whole movement of thought coming into it? That's all my question.

K: I never said - those are biological demands, but psychologically - anger, envy, jealousy, hate, attachment - can't you end all that? Of course, one can. Then do it! Talk to your wife or your husband, to your neighbour, gently, quietly, with affection, with care. Sir, you make me cry! You don't listen to all this.

K: Sir, look at it in yourself. At the moment of jealousy, or of anger, or of envy, or of hate, whatever it be, happiness, at that second there is no division, is there?

...lack of love, and to have no psychological fear at all. All this implies that one must stand alone. There is a difference between isolation and aloneness, between loneliness and being able to stand by yourself clearly, unconfused, uncontaminated.

K: Isn't this what is happening in life? Don't say, it is not my business if you are a Communist. It is my business to see if we can live in security, in peace in the world, we are human beings, supposed to be intelligent. Why should I be committed to anything?

K: Why does one, I mean, if one is afraid, do you, does one want to go really deeply inside the whole business of it, and be free from it? Does one demand that? Or we don't know how to deal with fears and so we run away from it, avoid it and explain it away. Is that it, we never really want to go into it and completely dissolve it. Is that what is...

...Sir, I don't know what is happening to most of the people all the time. But I am saying as one human being we are so conditioned in the pattern of achievement, whether in business, in religion, in any way, we are conditioned to achieve. Now in becoming aware of this conditioning, then you will find in that awareness if you are choosing, if you are...

K: So instead of going through all that business why don't you find out, let's find out what is thought, whether it can end, what is implied. You follow? Dig!

K: Could we start: why are we fragmented? Why do we look at life and all our actions and our business, whatever it is, always this fragment, business, religion, love, hate, you follow? It is all so broken up. Why do we do this?

...You are free of it, not just verbally say, 'Yes, I am not'. So that is why I asked at the beginning, if I may point out, unless we do this actively, see, aware that it is so in us, and being aware look at it, go into it, search out why human beings hold on to this attachment. Why you are attached as husband, wife, furniture, book, belief, it...

So can you be free of this attachment so that there is a responsibility which is not a duty? Then what is love when there is no attachment? You understand my question? Look: if you are attached to a nationality, you worship isolation of nationality, which is a form of glorified tribalism, you are attached to it. What does that do? It breaks it up,...

...end anything, we are always wanting to continue. When you end an attachment - please, we are not talking theoretically, or in abstraction, or theoretically, but actually, to end, say for instance your attachment to your guru, the attachment to some kind of belief, when you end it what takes place? You understand my question? Have you ever ended...

So when there is freedom from attachment there is love. You understand? No you don't. That means responsibility, so that means order. So can you - realising one of the factors of confusion in our life, of our disorder and misery, is this attachment to ideas, to beliefs, to ideals, to one's country and so on, to wife, all that - can one be free of...

...meaning of death. Have you ever ended anything without explanation, without resistance, without seeking a reward or punishment, end something? Have you? Have you ever ended completely attachment? That's what it means to die, to end. You can't when death comes, all that is cut off, your attachment to a person. So the significance of death in its...

...Hold on to them, or let them go? Or if you find yourself attached to somebody, to some ideals, to some belief, if you are at all aware and familiar with your attachment, how far one has let them go, knowing all attachment leads to a great deal of sorrow, and pain, and all the rest of it, which we went into.

So we have said if there is love there is no attachment; if there is attachment there is no love. So there has been the removal of the major factor in negation of what it is not, which is, love is not attachment. You know what it means in your daily life? No remembrance of anything, my wife, my girl-friend, or my neighbour told me, no remembrance...

And there is a continuity in our life through attachment. Right? And to voluntarily say, 'I will end attachment' - have you ever done it? So we are asking, and you are asking too, do we voluntarily ever give up anything, not for a reward, for itself? And you don't see the beauty of ending something completely. So ending has great significance....

...- the Arab, we are at war with each other. Right? That is fairly simple, obviously, observable. But if you go much deeper inwardly, I may cling to a person for various reasons, and the very attachment to that brings a great deal of conflict, fear, hate. Right? And without analysing can I observe the fact? We will go into what we mean by...

K: both externally and inwardly. If I have an insight into attachment: attachment to ideas, attachment to conclusions, attachment to persons, attachment to my - you follow? - knowledge, experience. If I have an insight into that, the whole thing is abandoned.

We also talked about, yesterday, the freedom from death and that's a vast subject which cannot possibly be dealt with in a few minutes, but we more or less outlined the meaning and the freedom from that thing that we call death.

...things; passion is not lust, is not the act of determination or will. Passion comes from the word suffer, suffering. When you understand deeply, fully what is suffering and the freedom from suffering then there is compassion. But the freedom from violence is not necessarily compassionate. You see one has to go into the question of what is freedom....

...good - you know the French phrase, 'the better is the enemy of the good'. Right? Let's proceed from there. Let's see this, please stick to this. Does freedom imply each one doing what he wants to do? Go into it, sir, don't answer me, look at it in yourself. As a human being, does freedom mean doing what you want to do, does freedom mean to choose?...

...stillness because then it is mechanical, which is not stillness, which is just an illusion of stillness. So there is freedom - freedom implies all that we have talked about - and in that freedom there is silence, which means no movement. Then you can observe - then there is observation, then there is only observation, not the observer observing....

...And we don't see when we live in the past we can never understand what is going on inwardly. So unless one realises the observer is the observed, the thinker is the thought, or the experiencer is the experience, there is no freedom from conflict. The god that one worships is surely put together by thought, isn't it? But the man who says, 'No, it...

...No, don't say no. Learn. So freedom is not in the field of reality because freedom implies freedom from conflict. But if there is freedom from conflict such a mind will know how to live in reality. I wonder if you see that. If I have understood, if my brain has completely grasped the full significance of living a life without conflict, which means...

So freedom is not to do what you want to do. That's not freedom at all. And I think probably that freedom has brought about great misery in the world, each one doing exactly what he wants to do. And that is rampant in this country, where there is no tradition, where there is no discipline - I am using the word discipline totally in a different...

So what is freedom? Freedom is not the opposite of imprisonment. Right? Then again it becomes a totally different kind of escape. So freedom is not escape from anything. That means a brain that has been conditioned by knowledge, knowledge always limited and therefore always living within the field of ignorance, such brains which is the machinery...

K: That is, to put it rather succinctly, freedom from knowledge, and being free, it is from freedom one communicates, not from knowledge. I wonder if I am making this clear?

So freedom, intelligence, beauty and love and the pursuit of pleasure are all interrelated - they are not separate things, which we have made it. 'I must be beautiful' - not only physically attractive, sexually appealing. This is our education, our conditioning, and to see all this as a whole - not as fragments, not as broken up, as freedom...

...that: which is, to understand desire, desire is sensation - I will go into it, I will explain it a little bit. There is seeing the tree, the woman, the man, the car, the politician who is right on the top, or the guru who says, 'I know'. So perception, seeing, then contact, touching, then out of that sensation. Right? Is this clear? Then what...

...Ah, you don't understand the word 'technology'. Technique - to do something, say for instance you want to build a car, and you must know all the parts, put them together, they must all work together. I have dismantled a car, put it all to pieces, and then put it all together hoping it will work. But it did work. Right? Learning about all the...

...the reaction. You see something in the window and you want it. What has taken place? The seeing of that dress, that trouser, that coat, that car, that woman, that man, or whatever it is - seeing, the sensation, the contact and say, 'I like that, that's exciting'. Which is, thought creates an image, you sitting in the car and driving. You follow?...

...That's right, sir, that's right. What do we mean by danger? A car is coming towards you as you are crossing the road and you might die and all the rest of it, so you move away from it. Self-preservation - the instinct to preserve one's being, both physiologically as well as psychologically. Now is not conflict similar to that? Let's keep it very...

...I don't know. That is, there are events in one's life, happenings, that appear to be a chance, happens by chance. Events that occur in random, you know, not knowing, it happens. Is that happening new, totally unexpected, or is that happening the result of unexamined, hidden, unconscious events? Just a minute, just a minute. I happen to meet you,...

...and sorrow, and if he is a serious man - and I hope you are - then there is only one resolution. Which is, that you, as a human being, who are the result of time, result of your environment, to bring about a change you must radically, deeply change.

David Bohm: Well, I thought that perhaps we could go - we raised several questions after these discussions. One was the nature of this ground that we discussed, whether we could come to it and whether it has any interest in human beings. And also we discussed the possibility that there could be a change in the physical behaviour of the brain.

That is, to be aware of 'what is' in oneself. Right? One may be conscious that one is envious, or violent, and to change, to bring about a change in that violence you need time. Is that so? You are following this? Please, are you? Is there somebody to whom I can talk and who'll tell me they understand?

JK: Yes. Therefore it is like I have been going along a certain tradition, I suddenly change that tradition there is a change in the whole brain, which has been going North, now it goes East.

...form of control. All this, with all its misery, confusion, is the lot of all of us, the life of most people; probably it is yours. And we don't seem to be able to change either ourselves or outward circumstances. Perhaps it is much more difficult to change the economic structure and the political nature, but perhaps we could, if we apply our...

So the question then arises: what is change? Do you understand? If I am greedy now, or anger, I have been envious, jealous, I have got a great many hurts, if there is no radical mutation now I will be exactly the same tomorrow. It is logical, sane, therefore I ask myself, what is change? You understand? Is there such thing as change? You...

...Go slowly, sir, think it out carefully. If one has an idea, a concept, a conclusion, an end to which you conform, to which you change to, or from this to that, is that change? Or is it a continuation of the same thing but modified. You have understood my question? One may project what one should be. The projection of that is from one's own desire,...

So then, what is one to do, how is one to change? Right? That is the inevitable question, next question. Here I am, unhappy, miserable, confused, I won't escape from it. I won't run off to the churches and to the temples and the mosques, or pick up a book to read about God and all that nonsense. I won't escape, but I am going to find out. Can I,...

So what is it that brings about change? You are following all this? Somewhat at least. Thought obviously cannot. It can organise change. Organisation is put together by thought. It can plan change but the planning is limited. So when one realises, sees the fact, the truth that thought cannot possibly bring about a change, because thought itself is...

So some of you have listened for many years and do we listen and therefore bring about a change, or you have got used to the words and just carry on? So we are asking: what will make man, a human being who has lived for so many million years, carrying on the same old pattern, inherited the same instincts, self preservation, fear, security, sense...

...Exploiting. Obviously. That's nothing new - nature has been exploited by man for thousands of years. They are destroying the forests, they are polluting the rivers, they are polluting the air, they are killing animals for pleasure, for food. This has been going on for millions of years. And so when one asks, what's your relationship with nature,...

And also we must find out for ourselves what is the relationship between nature and each of us. That's part of religion. You may not agree but consider it, go into it. Have you any relationship with nature, with the birds, with the water of that river? Not that the river is holy - all rivers are holy, getting more and more polluted. You may call...

K: All right. So you are part of nature, you are saying. What is your relationship with your nature - all those flowers, all the hills, the trees, the mountain, the dry river - right? - what's your relationship to that?

So, sirs, it is important to understand the nature and the structure of relationship. To change this corrupt society you must change, you must change yourself radically. And during all these talks we are concerned about that only: to bring about a mutation in the very mind, in the very cells of the brain.

...life, which is relationship, must inevitably be a series of incidents and conflicts. That's clear. So we are asking: can this centre be understood, watched, see the nature of it, the structure of it, and end it - not verbally, but actually end it? Right? That is our question. Therefore one must observe freely the nature and the structure of the...

K: Completely, specially in big towns, and even in small villages, and hamlets man is always outwardly going, outward, pursued by his own thought, and so he has more or less lost touch with nature. Nature means nothing to him. It is very nice, very beautiful. Once I was standing with a few friends and my brother many years ago at the Grand Canyon,...

...No, no, no, no - why? Why aren't you looking at that flower? Why? First of all, I think, we have given to nature such nature has no value at all for most of us because we say, 'Well, I can see the tree any time I want to'. That's one thing. And also, we are so concentrated upon our own worries, our own hopes, our own desires and experiences,...

So, please, understand what our conversation is about, which is, in our relationship with each other, as two friends walking along a beautiful lane full of trees and birds and shadows numberless, we are investigating the nature of the brain, nature of the mind, nature of our heart, whether in that structure, whether there can be total transformation so that we are different human beings, with a different mind, with compassion.

K: We are doing it - find out, sir. But you haven't - have you lost have you had an insight into the nature of the individual and his organisations? Finished. If you have understood that, seen the truth of it, finished, you can never enter into that.

K: So we talked, I spent hours, we discussed, we went into it. Gradually he saw. He said, 'Quite right'. So, sir, unless we understand the nature and the structure of appetite and desire, which are more or less the same, we cannot understand very deeply pleasure.

...bear in mind we are going to make it much more orderly, strict and not make it into another resort for amusement, please. Though it has been announced several times, that music that goes on, what is called music - Bong(?) is it? - thumping on the drums and so on went on until half past ten last night. So please be courteous, careful of others and...

K: Go and listen to music. The moment that music stops you are back to your images. This is all so childish! Take drugs, that also creates various images.

...Rien n'est completement. Look sir, when you listen to music, there is the beauty of it, the romanticism of it, the remembrance of it, hearing it in different places, and the association that it evokes, that music, with whom you heard it, how you talked about it, what the critics said about it and so on. So when your mind is occupied then the space...

K: No, no, sir. Is courage the opposite of fear? That is, if fear is non-existent is it courage? Or it is something totally different?

K: Thought, quite right. But sir, to go so profoundly it requires tremendous, not only courage, but the sense of constant pursuing the same stream.

I am not, the speaker has never been pessimistic or optimistic, he is just showing something to you: that the computers can take over all that man has done - almost, except the computers can't look at the beautiful tree, or the evening star, single, alone in the sky, or the morning light on the waters. When a machine can take over all that you are...

You know that word, 'communication' is very important to understand. Communication means building together, creating together. The word itself means that. And here we are trying to communicate, the speaker is trying to communicate with you, who are the listener, which means the listener and the speaker are creating together. Therefore, you're not...

...were talking yesterday evening? Communication with each other, to commune, to communicate something to another, unless they are really willing to listen, however friendly, however good-intentioned, unless one is able to listen to another, communication becomes rather limited, misunderstood, and apt to be misguiding. So we are going to talk over...

...we go into that this morning? Can we freely enquire together into this question? Because communication and relationship always go together. If there is no communication there is no relationship, not only between you and the speaker but also between each other. If we merely remain at the verbal level, at the formal level, that communication is very...

...with the psyche, the mind, and from there moving outwards. I don't know if we are communicating with each other. Communication means, as we said the other day, learning together, sharing together, observing together, creating together. That is, really, that means communication. So we must, you and I, must both move together step by step, and not...

...course not. Sir, when you hold a hand of another, you can hold it out of habit or of custom. Or you can hold it and communication can take place without a word, because both are at the given moment intense, communication has taken place, without a word. But we are not intense, passionate,...

May we stop now? It is an hour and a quarter we have talked. You haven't talked but K has talked. But we have had a communication with each other, because we have established the basis of a communication in which there is no superior and the inferior, one who knows and one who does not know. May we get up? Apres vous: After you! (laughter)

K: I understand that, sir. But I want to find (laughs), not a drug, not a medicine, not a way, but there must be a communication between you and me who is the ordinary man, a communication so that the communication is so strong that very my act of listening to you and you communicating with me operates.

...in English we have to understand the meaning of words, how they are used. And in this communication, that is, in listening to what is going to be said, either we share in what is being said or merely translate what is being said into ideas, into abstractions. Either we share together what is being said and not translate it into an ideology, into...

Listen not only verbally, and the meaning of the word, but also non-verbally - for communication is verbal and non-verbal, and since we are speaking in English, the words have definite meaning and if you don't understand the meaning of the word actually but interpret that word according to your particular conditioning then you will not be listening to what is being said.

...No. I'm just using that. Sir, first see, I'm talking about the word 'communication', not conditioning. We'll come to that. I don't know if I understand it rightly , I am talking - we are talking about that word, 'communication', which means, as I said, to build together. Here, communication means building together, understanding together, working...

K: Wait, wait, wait, wait. Patience, patience. The gentleman says, if I have understood him rightly, to bring about this order should we give first place to god. That's right, sir? That's a question isn't it?

So, the next question, which is much more difficult to answer - you have to have patience so far. Patience means - please understand, patience - I am using the word 'patient' in a particular sense. Patience means the absence of time. You understand? Generally patience means go slow, be patient, take time, don't react quickly, be quiet, take it...

...give you comfort, which will psychologically make you feel secure. That you love, which is what you want, you love. Right? Be ruthless in this. So devotion is not love, which is different from respect. You understand? Devotion is totally different from respect. That is, to respect another, care for another, consideration for another. But you only...

K: What is real friendship, if in that there is no trust or respect. If there is no trust or respect, what is the meaning of real friendship? I don't know. (Laughter) If you haven't got respect and affection how can you have friendship? I don't quite understand the meaning of this question.

...of a guru is fear. Right? The respect that you have for your bosses, for your politicians, for your gurus, for your so-called higher authorities, that respect which is never shown to those below you, politically, religiously, morally, ethically, in business, is really a cowardice. Are you accepting all this? The word 'respect' means to look back....

...Nobody has said that to me, here or in India or anywhere else. Perhaps one or two have. But I'm asking you, out of politeness, kindness, etc., respect, what do you pay for something which is unpayable.

K: That's very important because religion, at least the meaning of word is to gather together to be attentive. That is the true meaning of that word, religion, I have looked it up in a dictionary.

And why has man always talked about religion? From the ancient Egyptians and before them, religion has played an extraordinary part in life - why? Is it that we are seeking happiness, peace, an end which will not be destructive, secure, peaceful, and demanding that and not finding it in life, not finding all that in our daily life, we project....

K: Gathering together all energy to be attentive; to be attentive, otherwise it's not religion. Religion is all the things - we'll discuss that when we come to it. So freedom means the sense of complete austerity and a sense of total negation of the observer.

...And if there is a transformation of one or two of us, and that transformation does bring about a new culture. Culture can only be a new one, can only come out of a religion, not out of superstition, not out of ideas, however good or bad. Religion, not these things we call religion: the puja, the rituals, the fancy robes and so on and so on. That...

K: You see when we have divorced conduct from religion, which we have, divorced relationship from religion, which we have, divorced death from religion, which we have, divorced love from religion, when we have made love into something sensuous, something that is pleasurable, then religion, which is the factor of regeneration, disappears in man.

So we can see, if you are sane, rational, observing totally impersonally, without any bias, all the things that man has put together as religion - you understand? - is not religion. The incense, the rituals, the worship, the prayer, all the hierarchy, the immense wealth of these people, immense, marvellous paintings, the Vatican, tremendous jewels...

K: Wait a minute, I'm going step by step. Is it the religion that says, salvation to you first - the trumpet of Gabriel! (Laughter) So society, religion, culture, everything says to me, 'You first.' Right?

K: You see religion is based on tradition. Religion is vast propaganda, as it is now. In India, here, anywhere, propaganda of theories, of beliefs, of idolatry, worship, essentially based on the acceptance of a theory.

...if you have ever looked at the word 'reviving'. You can only revive something that's dead or dying. Nothing living, you can't revive a living thing. And in this country they are reviving religion. And also they are doing the same thing in different parts of the world. And there is division between nationalities, religion, economic, and so...

As I said, we were going to talk this morning about religion, meditation, and to come upon something, if it is possible, which is not measurable, which is totally a different dimension. We talked somewhat about religion. Now we are going to find out what it means to meditate. I don't know what it means to you. If you had never heard that word, if...

Popular Quotes

aloneness

place

integration

form of dependency

love

form of conclusion

Topic Posts

War and Peace

Introduction to Krishnamurti

Anxiety

Relationship

All Topics

About the Portal

Topic Posts

Introduction to Krishnamurti’s teachings

Anxiety

Relationship

Receive Our Articles By Email