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    Therefore meditation is not a controlled, directed activity, but it is an activity of no thought - I wonder if you realise all this. Then you will find out for yourself if there is, or if there is not, something which is not nameable, which is not within the field of time. And without finding that out, without coming upon it, without seeing the...

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    JK: That is the real point. We have often discussed this, whether there is anything beyond thought. Not something holy, sacred - I am not talking of that. I am talking: is there an activity which is not touched by thought? We are saying there is. And that activity is the highest form of intelligence.

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    K: That is all I have. Thinking, feeling, hating, loving - you know all that. The activity of the mind. I know that very well, you don't have to tell me.

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    To me it seems to be fairly clear that to observe there must be freedom, not only the outward phenomenon, but also to observe what is going on within ourselves, to observe without any prejudice, without taking any side, but to examine very closely, freely the whole process of our thinking and our activity, our pleasures, fears, and all the things that we have built around ourselves, not only outwardly but in ourselves as a form of resistance, compulsive demands, escapes, and so on.

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    So what is one then to do? Please don't answer it. The mind realises all the activity it indulges in or is forced to do, all its activity is the movement within the consciousness with its content. And realising this, what is the mind to do? Can it ever go beyond this limited consciousness?

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    K: Oh no. No, then activity may begin. Our activity is completely destructive when it is self-centred - obviously. Look what is happening, sir, all over the world.

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    ...which has not been touched by thought. And can the mind see its activity because the observer is the observed, just to observe the activity, not try to change it, not to reform it, not to control it, just to observe it, and see what it discovers in the field of the known and be totally responsible for that. That means not to let the knowledge be...

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    Please bear in mind that we are thinking together, not merely listening to the speaker, but be concerned with our responsibility, with our activity of our minds and our hearts about all this.

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    ...they the heathens, the communists and so on, and so on, so on. So the activity of the self is the 'me' as the observer, the activity of the self, the 'me', as the controller and the controlled, the activity of the self as will, the activity of the self demanding, desiring, experience. Right? As long as any of those activities exist, meditation...

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    ...himself. He knows the hurts, he is aware of the isolating process of that hurt because he doesn't want to be hurt more, therefore there is resistance, there is isolation and from that isolation there is activity - logical, illogical, stupid and all the rest of it, and that activity strengthens him more and more in that hurt, that wall. Now we are...

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    So meditation is the emptying of the mind of the activity of the self. And you cannot empty the mind of the activity of the self by any practice, by any method, or by saying 'Tell me what to do'. Therefore if you are really interested in this, concerned, you have to find out for yourself your own activity of the self as the you - the habits, the...

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    K: It is not an isolation, it is an obvious fact that when you see all this and say, this is so ugly, unreal, so stupid, you are naturally solitary, you are naturally alone. And that sense of aloneness which we experience is common.

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    K: Yes, that is right, sir, that is right. I want to go into this. So I see thought, thought, the mind, is all the time operating to make itself superior, more - you follow? - working itself to this isolation, towards this isolation. Right? Clear?

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    ...has suffered, and is still suffering, for various causes: the cause of war, the cause of division, nationally, economically, socially. And also he has suffered in isolation. He is isolated both in his activity and in his way of life. He is concerned with himself, though he may be related to others intimately or not, he is concerned with himself...

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    So security, as long as I live in isolation there must be uncertainty. From that uncertainty comes the desire to be secure. The cause is thought has made me insecure - not 'made me' - thought has brought about the sense of division - I am British, you are French, my guru, my guru is different than yours, my god is different, I will be saved only...

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    So I know very well what isolation is, and in that isolation... to live in that isolation and have relationship with another means absolutely nothing. So my intelligence says, that's absurd, you can't live that way. Therefore I am going to find out how to live in relationship and what the activity of that intelligence is in that relationship.

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    K: Yes. So, how does one find out if life has a meaning beyond this? How does one find out? They have tried meditation: they have tried every form of self-torture, isolation, becoming a monk, a sannyasi and so on, so on. But they may also be deceiving themselves thoroughly.

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    ...he is separate from another. Outwardly we have produced a world that is isolating itself, each group, each community, each religion, each country. And in this isolation they are seeking security. Which is what is happening - England, British says we must be secure in our isolation, and other countries are doing exactly the same thing. That is,...

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    K: It crippled you, isolated you, cut you off. It made you feel desperate, you didn't know what to do. Right? Now, when there was this isolation what happened to action?

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    ...somebody and so on and on and on. But this is simple enough. Now I am asking myself: why have various cultures denied the pursuit of pleasure, encouraged the pursuit of pleasure, thereby cultivate or bring about a feeling that there is guilt about it - don't you know about all this? So where does one begin to free oneself from all this - neither...

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    ...And you don't end it there. Thought comes in and says, 'Let's have it again, let's repeat it'. Which is the pursuit of pleasure, that which was delightful, enjoyable, has become instantly a pleasurable thing through the movement of thought. You get it? You understand this? So, there is pleasure, there is enjoyment, there is joy. Joy you can never...

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    And also we must see what are the consequences if it is not pleasure. Then what is love, which is not jealousy, attachment, remembrance, pursuit of pleasure through imagination and desire and so on? Is love then the opposite of all this? You follow? I am lost!

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    ...mind understand that pleasure is not love. And the pursuit of pleasure, whether it is the noblest pleasure or the ordinary pleasure of sex, having possessions, you know, attachments, all the rest of it, the pleasure principle - when you pursue the pleasure principle you must at the same time have fear. The two go together. That's obvious, isn't...

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    ...all its images and the ending of the images, that is to see that desire in not love. And pleasure, whether that pleasure be the pursuit of god, social service, or helping another and so on - basically, deeply, the pursuit of pleasure, that pleasure is not love. Right? Are you willing to follow so far? Or your sexual pleasure, the pleasure of being...

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    ...What is thinking? Please, this is very important to understand this because it is related to pleasure. If you don't understand the movement of thought, what is thinking, then you will never be free of the pursuit of pleasure and its pain. So, to understand or to observe pleasure you must there must be the observation of thought. That is, what is...

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    And one of the fragments of our life is the pursuit of pleasure opposed to fear, opposed to pain, something contradictory, away from all the miseries, suffering, pain. And that is what we are doing, pursuing pleasure in the name of god, in the name of whatever it is. Again thought plays a tremendous part in it - doesn't it? We don't have to go...

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    ...the thunder rolling among the hills and thought pursuing that sound, pursuing that marvellous light of an evening on the snow. So it is the movement of thought as a remembrance in time that is the pursuit of pleasure. I wonder if you get all this. I pursue a guru - not I (laughter) - I have an abomination of gurus, because they are the new...

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    ...see the mountain against the blue sky, there is certain delight, there is a great sense of enjoyment. That is recorded in the brain, and from that record there is remembrance, and that remembrance of that past delight is the pursuit of pleasure. So is pleasure the process of thought? And when there is actual moment of pleasure, is there a...

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    ...Bene? So you see that? Actually see it, not verbally, that where there is pleasure and the pursuit of pleasure in relationship, it will inevitably end in greater pain. It's so obvious! Because you are giving another great pleasure, and therefore he holds on to you. Right? He won't let you go, he wants to possess you, he wants, he says 'She's...

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    ...into an act of pleasure, and pursue that pleasure through various practices - the Zen, the various systems, methods, all the rest of it. Because that is still the pursuit of pleasure, to be gained at the end. And we said the pursuit of pleasure is the movement of thought. Thought is memory, stored up in the brain as knowledge and experience. And...

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    ...should or should not. It would be absurd to say 'Don't have pleasure', when you look at the sky and the trees and the lovely countryside there is a delight. But why this pursuit of pleasure?

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    ...desire for pleasure. Right? You don't have to admit it, that is a fact. The two principles in our life are fear and pleasure. And again when one observes, the pursuit of pleasure tomorrow, is the movement of time. That is, I have had pleasure yesterday, I must have it tomorrow - I am working for that pleasure for tomorrow, sexually,...

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    ...desire there is the whole movement of pleasure, which is gratification, satisfaction, both sexually and otherwise. The pursuit of pleasure, which man throughout the world is doing now. It is becoming more and more exaggerated. The more sophisticated, the more civilised we become the greater the pleasure apparently, the pursuit of it - sexually,...

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    ...of it, isn't it? You are afraid of your pleasure ending. Right? So what are you going to do about it? Go on, answer. What are you going to do about your pleasure and the pursuit of pleasure and the fear that it may end? You are faced with the problem. Right? What is your response to...

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    ...after tomorrow morning. But let's go into this question: what is it we are all wanting? More money, if you have not money? Obviously one must have more money if you haven't got it, that gives us food, clothes and shelter. Apart from that, and if it is possible that all human beings right throughout the world have enough clothes, food and shelter,...

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    K: So you are really hungry, you want some food: who is going to supply you the food? Metaphorically speaking. I am not giving you food, you are not hungry, but in a different sense. Who is giving you the food that you want?

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    ...in a certain way. And another as a German, or comes from India, it doesn't matter, America. Time, the climate, the food, the language, the television, all those, religion, the superstitions, all that has made him what he is, and more. What is the common factor in all human beings who are conditioned? You follow what I am...

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    K: Ah, no. When you eat, you are eating because you are hungry. The stomach receives the food, there is no idea of receiving the food. So can you listen - listen - without the idea of receiving, or accepting, or denying, or arguing, just listen to a statement? It may be false, it may be true, but just listen to it. Can you do it?

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    K: To be secure (laughs) means to have food, clothes, shelter and money. Right? Food, clothes, shelter, house, a room, and some money. If that is assured you are physically secure. Right?

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    K: Mustn't you have food and clothes and shelter? You have clothes, you have food. Millions of people haven't got food, clothes. Why is it?

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    ...as two friends about the problem of being conditioned. Don't forget, please, don't go off to something else. Our minds are conditioned by our culture, by our race, by our climate, by our food, by our beliefs, and so on, so on. We are conditioned, our minds are conditioned through education, through experience, through knowledge and so on. And the...

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    K: And from whom are you going to get the food? From the guru? From your books? From your culture? From some politician? Where are you going to get the food?

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    K: Ah, no, no, no, no. We're talking not where the food is, but we are saying 'hunger'. You know when you're hungry. But why don't you also know why should somebody tell you to look at a flower?

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    K: Ah, no, no, no, no. We're talking not where the food is, but we are saying 'hunger'. You know when you're hungry. But why don't you also know why should somebody tell you to look at a flower?

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    K: Yes, partly. One must have food and clothes and shelter. That's an absolute essential, otherwise you four wouldn't be sitting here.

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    ...So there are various forms of pleasure. And also there is this fear - fear of losing a job and the fear of ultimate death; fear of not success, not fulfilling, not being somebody, not achieving enlightenment - whatever you may call that - fear of being alone, fear of loneliness, fear of not being loved.

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    ...does a mind learn about fear? - learn, have an insight, not memorise various formulas how to be rid of fear. There is the fear of death, fear of loneliness, fear of mechanical behaviour, fear of not being loved, fear of so many kinds. And in the resolution of fear you have solved the whole problem. Now how is that fear, conscious as well as...

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    ...as well as biologically one may get ill - again there is fear. And psychologically, inwardly there is the fear of loneliness, fear of not succeeding, fear of not being loved whatever that may mean, fear of dark - you know, fear, with all its many, many branches. Right? If you are not afraid - good lord! - there is no guru, there is no authority,...

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    ...but there is always the shadow of loneliness with its despair, and one is frightened of that loneliness. The fear of loneliness prevents us from looking into the depth of that loneliness, what is the reason of that loneliness. You are following? Are we meeting each other? Communicating with each...

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    You know what you are, you know your fears - fear of loneliness, fear of old age, fear of not fulfilling, fear of losing, fear of being attached, and you might lose that which you are attached to, fear of not having success in life - dozens of fears. Right? Are you aware of one fear at least? Here, now, sitting there, are you aware of your fear?...

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    ...in which there is never the image. So I have to grapple with fear - you understand all this? I have fear of loneliness, fear of not having somebody to lean on, fear of standing alone, being self-sufficient, which doesn't mean being selfishly isolated. I have fear of things I have not known. I only know this, this relationship in which there is...

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    ...possessions, they are afraid of losing - right? - they have fear death - right? - they fear of their husbands, their wives, fear of public opinion, fear of losing something that you have, fear of not having affection, fear of loneliness, fear of not being somebody. So you have many, many forms of fear. Now do you want to take each subject, or go...

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    ...Take time, we have got plenty of time. Observe it. Fear of death, fear of loneliness, fear of tomorrow, fear of losing a job, fear of losing your wife, or your girl, or your boy, losing your position, losing the vitality, the energy, fear of not being as intellectual, verbal or clever as another. To be aware of it, to observe...

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    ...that, not as a theory which you accept or reject, but something which is fearfully actual, then your whole attitude towards life changes. Then you are not alone because you are like the rest of humanity. Which means you, as a human being, represent the totality of all humanity. You understand this? You, as a human being, are the representative of...

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    So I represent the rest of humanity - and I really mean it - therefore when I am having a dialogue with myself I am in tears - you understand? Not like you, smiling. It is a passion for me.

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    ...- you know, life becomes terribly small and petty. And in that enquiry whether human beings, that is you, me and the rest of the world, and you, being the rest of humanity - you are whether you like it or not, you may stick to your conditioning that you are an individual but you are not. You may have a different body, different name, different...

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    ...because he can choose. But the movement of choice is in the same field from one corner to another. This is not freedom. So we were saying yesterday our consciousness, which is our human, daily existence is the rest of humanity. And that consciousness in itself is contradictory, in itself broken up,...

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    ...one sees the absolute truth of that, then what is death? You understand? This fact is there, that is a fact. My consciousness is the consciousness of the rest of humanity, therefore I am the rest of humanity. I am humanity. If one realises that it's got tremendous meaning, depth to that; passion behind it; the responsibility of that is immense;...

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    ...that you believe. On the contrary we are saying you are not individuals; you are the rest of humanity, you are humanity because you suffer, because you have fears, you have many illusions and superstitions and beliefs, you have one god or one saviour, and in Asia they have a thousand gods, perhaps that is more fun. So you are like the rest of the...

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    ...and the other friend are questioning - whether we are individuals at all. Or, we are like the rest of humanity; the rest of humanity is unhappy, sorrow-ridden, fearful, believing in some fantastic romantic nonsense; they go through great suffering; uncertainty, like you. And our reaction, which is part of our consciousness, is similar to the...

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    ...your leader, and the speaker doesn't want to be your guru, your authority. But together, as two human beings, concerned, caring, concerned with humanity, because after all you are the rest of humanity, because your consciousness with its content is the rest of humanity. The rest of humanity has also the same consciousness as yours. They suffer....

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    ...our consciousness is your essence, what your life is. That is the truth. And so you actually share the rest of humanity; you are the rest of humanity. You are humanity. This is a tremendous thing to realise. You may believe in a certain form of a saviour and the other believe in certain form of ideologies and so on; belief is common to all of us;...

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    ...Asia is not geographically separate from the rest of the world - it is geographically separate but Asia is you and me. Right? Because we are part of humanity, part of our consciousness, we are the rest of humanity. So when one part of humanity has given a great deal of time from two or three, four thousand years, as the Egyptians have done, as the...

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    ...He says, can humanity survive without? Can you survive, because you are humanity? You understand my question? You - oh, God, must I go through all this? Aren't you like the rest of humanity? You may be short, dark, purple, white, pink, whatever pigment, colour of the pigment is, aren't you like the rest of the world? You may have a different...

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    So, our consciousness is not separate from the rest of humanity. That is a tremendous revelation, greater than any other revelation in any sacred book, because it then brings about a tremendous radical change. You are humanity. You understand this? So if you are, if your house is not in order, the rest of humanity is not in order. You understand?...

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    ...of your being - then is it possible to be totally aware of all this, the whole of consciousness? You follow? To be totally aware implies no observer: the observer is the past and therefore when he observes he brings about fragmentation. This is clear, isn't it? When I observe anything, trees, mountains, you, my wife, my husband, my children, my...

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    ...those mountains, you know, look at it. In the same way, look at fear. So when you look at fear, we are saying, we are asking, does it come from the past, and not from the future as we think the future, because the future is the movement of the past through the present. One loses a job, the memory of that losing, unemployment, and all the rest of...

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    K: Find out. If you find this out to be true for yourself, I am not telling you, then there is a totally different relationship taking place. It isn't just routine, it isn't just a mechanical repetition of the past operating all the time.

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    ...Nothing, I mean there is no movement. Therefore I cannot possibly give up the past. So people dangle in front of me a carrot and I, like a silly person, I follow it. So if I have no carrots, nothing as a reward or punishment, how is this past to be dissolved? Because otherwise I am still living in the field of time. And therefore it is still...

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    ...of one's life. And the motive is always changing. Therefore motive gives shape to our life - right? Desire. Desire, motive and so on. So the past - see it - so the past is giving shape to our life - right? The motive is the past. You understand? So the past, which is the motive, which is giving a direction, is giving the mould of our life. Right?...

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    ...or having accumulated knowledge, experience and, from there to act. The past, which is knowledge, experience and these various accumulations of memories which is all the past, guides our lives, shapes our lives and breaks up life into the past, the present and the future. The past is always active consciously or unconsciously, and so we divide...

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    ...to me. So then is there a freedom from the word - communist, socialist, etc., etc., greed, envy, nationality and so on - is there a freedom from the word? The word is the past. Right? The feeling is the present recognised by the word as the past, so I am living all the time in the past. So the past is me, the past is time, so time is me. Look what...

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    ...What perceives correct action - it is a good question if you will go into it. Who will see what is correct action? Now we see from the past, don't we? No? And that is the 'me', I, who says, 'I observe correct action'. Right? The 'me' is the essence of the past. No? My memories, my pleasures, my mistakes, my regrets, my anxieties, my hopes,...

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    ...because otherwise we are always acting in the field of the known, the known being the unknown also, the ignorance. There is never freedom. That's, a man always living in the past, as you do. You may project that past into the future as an ideal, as a hope and so on, but it is still the movement of the past, modified through the present - right?...

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    ...says there is the higher-self and the lower-self, the 'I am' which says there is the atman and not the atman, I am also the soul and not the soul, I am all that. All that is the past. Right? Now, with that past, which is the 'me', can that 'me' enquire into something which is not related to the past, because unknown. You understand the...

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    JK: It is programmed; it is made to conform to a certain pattern, lives entirely on the past, modifying itself with the present and going on.

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    K: No, you are not - listen quietly, first get the principle that thinking about the past, and the future causes fear, but yet you have to think.

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    K: No, no the past meeting the present then becomes modified. Your Indian tradition which is the past meeting the present challenge of economics, social, you know all that, modifies that tradition and goes on into the future. The future is still the present. Right? Now what is your question?

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    ...together in this. What is the observer? And what is the structure and the nature of the observer? Is the observer the past, with his experiences, with his knowledge, with his accumulated hurts, with his sorrows and so on - is the observer the past? Is the observer the 'me'? And is the observer, being the past, is he capable of looking at what is...

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    And if you observe how your own brains react, you can see how the brain cells themselves are living in the past. Right? You're following? You are living, you who think you are living, you are living in the past. Every knowledge is already the past. Oh Lord! So in the past the brain is taking security, and so the past comes to the present, modifies...

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    K: Look, sir, I have just pointed out: sunset, delight, the remembrance of it, and the remembrance encourages the continuity of that delight which is over.

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    ...is time. Chronological time as yesterday, today and tomorrow, and also the whole movement of thought. Those are the two factors which bring about fear. And the other factor in that is remembrance. The remembrance of a past fear and holding on to that remembrance and projecting a future fear. We were talking about that...

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    K: I'm asking sometimes, yes. Now why do you long for it? Because you have a remembrance of something that was pleasant. That remembrance is the observer who says, 'I wish I could have that again'. That's all we are stating.

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    K: The questioner says there are two spheres in our brain, one that is receiving, registering, memorising, and the other part, perhaps the other part which is more free, which is not conditioned and therefore there is this duality going on in us. And memory, remembrance of a particular of this sphere is necessary. That is his question.

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    Now I am asking you, I am asking, we are asking: attachment, is it a remembrance, therefore out of the past, or is it a living thing that is going on, alive?

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    ...If I say, I love you, because I remember the pleasures that you have given me, or the comfort, or the encouragement, this or that, is that love? Is love based on a remembrance? So then I have to enquire whether that remembrance which is bringing about action and so on, can that remembrance, the tape that has recorded, stop? All that is implied in...

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    K: Just a minute. Would there be a thousand yesterdays if there was no remembrance of those thousand years of sorrow, or whatever it is, can I separate - I can separate by the calendar.

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    ...No darling, sir, think it out, first. What might have happened, what might - no - what has happened, first. What does that mean? The memory, the remembrance of something unpleasant, the remembrance, memory. Right? And the future is what might happen also from the past, the future, which means it might happen. So, both are the process of thinking....

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    Suppose I am married and my wife bullies me, flatters me, encourages me and so on and so on and so on; it is our daily education that is responsible for this remembrance, remembrance of that irritation, remembrance of that encouragement, remembrance of that depression which she or the other person feels and lives in that depression, therefore it feels separated.

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    ...So do we as a group of educators see the nature of this: that where there is division there is no relationship. If there is a division between the student and the educator you are educating him only about that particular subject. Here you are saying it is different. Here we are actually bringing about a relationship with the student which is not...

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    K: Any machine can do that. Or what is his relationship? Does he put himself on a pedestal, up there and his student down there. Or is the relationship between the teacher and the student, is it a relationship in which there is learning on the part of the teacher as well as the student. Learning.

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    ...Please, sir, answer my question. You are fragmented, I am your student, I am also fragmented. Right? Then what do you do? What's our relationship? Or, is there no relationship at all? Or, we are on the same level. Right? Ah, that's it, you won't admit that. I am fragmented, he is fragmented - not your sir, I am talking about somebody else. I am...

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    K: I'll show it to you. (Laughter) I'll go into it, sir. Let's go into it quietly. You are the student, I am the educator. Forgive me, I am not, but we are putting it to each other. I would point out the meaning of division, what it does in the world - historically, physically, in relationship and so on - conflict. Right?

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    ...of 'sometimes' and 'not always' is for the moment - if I may point out - irrelevant. What is relevant is, what takes place in this relationship with the student and with the teacher when they both realise they are in the same self-centred area, field? You are not answering my question. Probably you haven't thought about this. This is what has...

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    Krishnamurti: Are you saying what is the relationship between the student and the educator when they both realise, or the educator points it out to the student that they both are conditioned - conditioned being according to their ecological, cultural, economic, racial, and all that kind of conditioning - what is the relationship between the student and the educator when they both realise that they are conditioned?

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    ...is, and whether it can be transformed, whether it can be changed? I should have thought that is education, not merely cram the student with a lot of facts about this or that, but also how to live without problems, without suffering, without fear, without the agonies they go through.

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    ...We are investigating, we are having a dialogue about it. So what does freedom mean? Does it mean every student doing what he likes? Go into, sir. And every student wants that, because he has been conditioned to that: this permissive society, do what you want, individual expression and all that. So he comes with that conditioning and says, 'I am...

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    K: That is impossible. I mean that would be like saying it is too stupid to say 'I will wait till I make myself all right and then come to teach'. So our relationship then is, I am not totally stupid, conditioned, and the student is, so we both are on the same level. Right?

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    ...that. We are trying to investigate the question, we are not trying to lay down laws about it. At least I'm not. I really mean it, I don't. I want to find out what way I can help the student. I may not be holistic. You understand? Don't say you must first be holistic and then you can teach. Then we are dead. Right? Then that will take eternity, and...

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    ...Muslim, the Christian - conditioned. Now how to deal with this problem, both at home, and in the school. That is a question we are discussing now. You are a teacher, I am the student, I am the child. You realise you are conditioned, you are aware you are conditioned, and I, the student, am not aware of it because I am still too young. I am being...

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    ...helping you - not helping - we are watching each other in order not to be self-centred. Right? That is part of our conditioning. Can the educator convey this to the student and feel the responsibility of this exchange?

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    K: No, the student is only what When the student comes to you he is conditioned by his parents, by the society, the culture he has lived in, and he comes to you and he is career-minded, examinations, job. That's all. It is only very rare that a student comes who says, 'Sir, there is something more than this, let me please tell me what there is.'...

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    ...there is no teacher separate from the taught. Am I making The teacher isn't merely the one who gives information, but the one who is so deeply concerned with the student, which means he is concerned with himself as well as with the student. That is - if I may explain a little more, if you will permit me - the student comes to the school...

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    How do you help the student to listen to mathematics? He is not interested in it. He wants to do something else while you are talking, explaining a problem. And how do you see that he really listens to what you are saying?

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    K: All their knowledge is from books, or from their small little self. So I say I am going to investigate this whole way of living, not just parts of it, the whole way of living.

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    ...wives, I may change husbands, but the same pattern is repeated over and over and over again. And as I am a serious man I want to find out if it can end, what is the manner of ending it, and what is a way of living in which there is no conflict at all. That's what I want to find out. At least that's what we are gathered here, to do...

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    And if you will, we will go together into this question, bearing in mind that the speaker has no authority whatsoever, because both of us are going to examine, observe, this phenomenon called life, living, and find out the truth of the matter, if there is an action, a way of living, not at odd moments or in a great crisis but every day, every minute, a way of living in which there is joy, there is no violence, no brutality, no contradiction, and obviously no imitation and dependency.

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    K: Which means, a way of living with another, intimately or not intimately, in which there is no possibility at any time of being hurt. Right? Is that possible? So let's find out. Right?

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    ...of the way we are living, the destructiveness of it, the utter indifference to the earth. We are destroying everything we touch. And to point out a way of living in which there is no conflict. That seems to me is the function of the highest form of...

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    K: All right, if it is not living what are you going to do about it? Do you accept this way of living? If you don't, what is the next step?

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    ...from there? I hope you have understood something of it, because it's your life, it's not my life. It's your way of living, your daily existence, which has become so utterly meaningless, so mechanistic, except for occasional freedom and so on. So we are going to go into this question of whether there is an action, a way of living which is not based...

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    K: (repeating question) Many people depend on me financially and what is the right, intelligent, way of living, and a livelihood?

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    ...Just a minute, sir. I am going into the question. A way of life in which there is no need for change. Aren't most of us satisfied with our way of living? There might be a little discontent, dissatisfaction, and slight, peripheral changes, but most of us prefer, don't we, I am just asking, for things to remain as they are, status quo, and hoping...

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    And when you realise this then the question arises: is there a way of living - please listen - is there a way of living daily life without a single conflict? Not as an idea, not as a slogan, not something you repeat and so on, but to find out for yourself a way of living in which there isn't a shadow of struggle, except in the technological field...

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    K: Yes, but I mean, if you go all over the world, it is the same expression, it is the same way of living. They are all living their own personal lives unrelated to another, though they may marry, they may do all kinds of things, but they're really functioning from an isolated centre.

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    ...comparison, conformity, go together and that does not breed - that only breeds a suppression, conflict and endless pain. To find a way of living - not a way - a daily living in which there is no comparison. Do it sometime, you will see what an extraordinary thing it is. It frees you from so many burdens. And to be aware of that, that very...

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    Now we are enquiring: is there an action, a way of living, which is non-mechanistic, which is not based on the movement of thought as time? Are we understanding something of each other?

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    K: Ah, no, again that's a game you are playing. Do you really seriously want to find a way of living in which you cannot possibly be hurt? Do you want to find out?

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    So you find then, that there is a way of living in which there is no - please carefully listen, because what I am going to say is dangerous - a way of living in which there is no control whatsoever. Because for most of us control has become the habit, the tradition, the most respectable thing. Obviously. Your life is all the time controlled,...

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    ...they waste energy? And therefore, all the rest of it. What do you say? Obviously, it is so. If I have an image about myself and that is opposite to your image, they must be in conflict, and therefore it must be a wastage of energy, isn't that so? Don't waste time on...

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    If you act from the past you are wasting your energy, because you are being conditioned by the past, the past tells you what to do or what to think and so there is a wastage of energy because you are not living actually in the present, which is to watch your reactions, your prejudices, your experience actually as you are living now. And you are...

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    ...the sorrow, the pain, the anxiety, the loneliness, lack of love, all that, to observe. Then what takes place? Then you will see that energy is being gathered, because there is order and therefore there is no wastage of energy. Right? When there is mathematical order in your life, daily life there is no wastage of energy. It is only where there is...

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    ...more mischievous? More violent? More beastly? So in the conservation of energy - you follow? - which comes about by understanding the wastage of energy, conserving that energy, not that you conserve energy; when there is energy not wasted, there is energy. In the discovery how you waste your energy, there is the beginning of intelligence. Right?...

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    Suppose you have a belief, and unfortunately most people have beliefs, opinions, judgements, conclusions, you hear the speaker say, 'That's a wastage of energy', he shows you the reason - the reason being that the mind refuses to face the fact as it is. It is educated not to face facts as they are. Through our education, social reform, society,...

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    ...understand this? Please. Because it's your life - your life which is so messy, so miserable, so unfortunately shoddy. And it is immensely important that life shouldn't be wasted, and not to waste it means no wastage of energy. And the wastage of energy takes place when there is conflict between the observer and the observed. And that very conflict...

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    ...comes and maintains and sustains itself when there is no movement of thought away from 'what is'. Right? 'What is', is violence. Any movement away from that violence is a wastage of energy, the ideal of non-violence. Therefore when there is no wastage of energy then the mind can deal wholly with the fact of violence, and go beyond...

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    ...in battle, constantly choosing, denying, asserting, dominating, attached, not attached, it is in constant struggle, boiling all the time. And therefore in that boiling there is a wastage of energy. For that turmoil to come to an end is part of meditation. Not by control, the moment you control, then who is the controller? Please, go into this...

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    When you understand the depth of violence without escaping from it, running away to some idiotic ideals, as non-violence, when you look at it, when you observe it very closely, which is to bring all the energy which you have wasted in pursuing the opposite, which is a wastage of energy; when you try to suppress it, it is a wastage of energy which is conflict.

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    ...says - the mind moves in traditional channels because it is safer there - therefore it says, 'I must suppress it', or, 'I must justify it'. All that is going on and that is a wastage of energy, obviously. So, when you don't waste that energy, you have the problem is no longer there. It is the inattention which is a wastage of energy that creates,...

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    ...everybody - right? - against everybody; enclosing ourselves in a little, neurotic state, building a wall round ourselves through fear, and so on. That's also a great deal of wastage of energy. Right? And to pursue an ideal is a wastage of energy, not the ending of a fact. I don't know if I am making myself...

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    ...energy. Right? Then it'll be very clear. Do we waste energy by chattering? Endless talk? Right? Most of us do - endless talk. And is it a wastage of energy to be constantly in conflict - in the office, at home, and so on? Right? Is not conflict within oneself and outside, a wastage of...

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    ...No, sir, no sir. Now the problem of energy - what time is it? Sir, look, conformity is a wastage of energy. Right? When I conform to the pattern set by tradition - the whole involvement of tradition, not just one tradition, the whole, that is authority and all that - when there is conformity there is a wastage of energy because then there is...

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    ...a distraction. See why. Endless talking about politics, endless reading newspapers and quoting, you follow, isn't that a distraction? Chatting, gossiping, isn't that a wastage of energy, isn't that a distraction? So any form of wastage of energy is a distraction. Therefore we have to enquire: is there no wastage of energy at all? You people don't...

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    ...doesn't it? Not demands. To face something of which I know absolutely nothing. I can only do that when there is no will, no resistance, no choice - you follow? - no wastage of energy. To face something unknown there must be the highest form of energy. And when there is that total energy, is there death? You understand what I'm talking about? Is...

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    ...You see, that's one of our other fallacies, that it is hard. No, it is not hard. What is happening is you are not listening, learning about 'what is'. You are not listening to 'what is' nor learning about 'what is'. You understand sir? Now, may I go into this fact, which is what is learning? What is learning? Have you ever thought about it sirs?...

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    So it is possible to transform 'what is' without the idea of time. Is this clear? Please, this is very important because we are going to go into something presently which is, when you are talking about death, time is involved in it. So we must really understand the nature and the structure of time, how time works. When you say, I will be, or, I...

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    ...when you see choice, when you have to choose, you are choosing out of confusion, out of disorder. And choice implies duality and duality is an escape from 'what is'. And if you remain with 'what is', look at 'what is' without its opposite, and to look at that you need energy. Right? Look: when you have an opposite the pursuit of the opposite is...

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    So, 'what is' and 'what should be', so there is conflict. Now, 'what should be' is non-fact, it is not so; 'what is 'is my violence. That is all. Not 'I should become non-violent'. Right? I wonder if we see this clearly. 'What is' is far more important than 'what should be', because 'what should be' will never take place, because 'I will be one...

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    What would we call facts, 'what is'? What would you say, or describe, or talk about, 'what is', actually 'what is', not theoretical, not abstracted, not an abstraction, or a supposition. When we say 'fact', 'what is', what do we mean by those two words? Right? Facts. The fact is that there is war. Right? The fact is that human beings are violent....

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    ...sir: I am greedy, that's a fact, one is greedy, envious, violent, those are facts. And we look at that fact, 'what is', with eyes that condemn, justify, give reason why we should be violent. And so we see the impossibility of going beyond. Whereas if we looked at the violence which we have in us, the 'what is', without any condemnation, without...

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    Please observe for yourself these facts. I am not trying to impose anything on you who are the listener. We are neither agreeing or disagreeing. We are just observing the facts, the actual 'what is'. And that very observation of that, of 'what is', brings energy, which is an action.

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    ...some ideas from the speaker, some conclusions or some philosophical concepts. We are dealing with 'what is', what is actually going on outside and also what is going on within ourselves, what actually is going on, not what we like to think is going on. And so, if I may repeat again, we are sharing the thing together and so it is your...

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    ...merely verbal understanding of it. The 'better' is the evil. The whole mentality, our whole mentality is 'becoming better'. The 'better' is directional, 'the better' is modification of 'what is' into 'what should be'. It's all directional, preconceived, modified. Whereas the other is a total ending of 'what is'. Now if that is clear, now which is...

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    ...differently - at least we say so, at least some of us say we must, and make an attempt. Before making an attempt, before trying to change, we must understand actually 'what is', not 'what should be', but actually take 'what is' in our hands and look at it. And you cannot look at it, come closely, intimately contact with it if you have an ideal, or...

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    ...is, when there is violence its opposite is non-violence, peace, a state of mind in which there is no violence at all. The fact is violence, 'what is' is violence. The other, the ideal of a mind that has no violence is non-existent, is an abstraction and therefore has no validity. What has validity, the fact, 'what is' is violence. And if the mind...

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    K: What should be, all right. What should be, from 'what is'. Right? 'What is' and 'what should be' - that's a fragmented action, isn't it? Why do human beings have ideals at all, 'what should be'?

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    As we said, will is independent of the fact, of 'what is' and depending on the self, what it wants, not what it is but what it wants. And that want, depending on its circumstances, environment, culture and so on, divorced from the fact - therefore there is contradiction. Therefore there is a resistance against 'what is' and that is a wastage of...

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    So I must be able, the mind must be able to look. So when I look at 'what is' in myself and in the world, actually 'what is' without resistance, then out of that observation there is instant action which is not the result of will. Got it?

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    K: No madam. Look, I have an ideal that eventually we will all be brotherly, and in the meantime I am hating you. The ideal is over there, the fact is, I dislike, I hate. Right? So what is important, the ideal or 'what is'? Come on sir. Obviously 'what is'. So why do we have ideals?

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    You know the speaker has faced this problem of meditation and the gurus for the last fifty years. It is not prejudice but in matters of spirit there is no leader and taught, therefore no authority, no guru. It is the authority that has destroyed the investigation and the discovery of what is truth.

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    ...and in that conformity there is safety, and so there is conflict. You understand? There is rebellion, revolt against authority, and that very revolt creates its own authority, and so the mind moves from one authority to another, one knowledge to another. And we think discipline - in the ordinary sense of the word we are using - we think that...

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    ...is thought? How does it come into being? As I said, please, don't accept a thing that the speaker says, there is no authority here, though unfortunately he has to sit on a platform for the convenience of others, it doesn't give him an authority, a position, a status. When we are examining together there is no status, there is no authority, there...

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    Now to find out what is the religious mind, what is the truth of religion, one must be free from all authority, of all belief, faith. Not belong to a thing. Right? There must be a sense of totally being free.

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    So can the mind put away authority because it sees the truth of it, the significance of it, the nature of it? Not a reaction to authority - which is what is going on. When you react against authority you are creating another authority. That is obvious. I do not know if you have ever seen that caricature which appeared in 'The New Yorker' - a...

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    ...No laugh? Do you see the point of that story? You want everything organised, put in their categories. Organisation demands hierarchy, and you are used to hierarchy, both religiously, politically, socially - somebody always in authority above you. So what does authority do to you? Of course the professor knows more about physics than you do, the...

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    ...this security lie? You follow my question? It does not lie in belief. It does not lie in the acceptance of any authority: your guru, your knowledge, your experience, your own self-confidence, authority, because authority can be taken away and somebody - you know, you follow? So neither in belief nor in authority nor in another, nor in your demand...

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    ...without any sense of discipline, control - all that belongs to disorder. You know what we are saying is something that is totally different from what your gurus, your Masters, your Zen philosophy, all that; because in this there is no authority, there is no following another. Because if you follow somebody you are not only destroying yourself but...

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    ...brain has the function to record everything - right? To record. You are sitting there, the speaker is sitting up here, only for convenience, not for authority. The platform doesn't give him authority. I must tell you a story, rather amusing. We were in India, in Bombay. Some disciples of a guru came to see us and said, 'You must meet him, he is an...

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    K: I understand. For us Jesus has become an authority. Here, listening to you, are you not becoming an authority also. Of course not, because I repudiate - follow this - because the moment you create the speaker into an authority then you are destroying truth.

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    ...reaction to that conformity? You conform when you put on trousers and all the rest of it; when you have long hair, short hair, you conform to a fashion, you conform to a particular craze, you conform when you accept the authority of a guru which you have rejected that authority in the priest of your own country. Right? You are following all this?...

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    ...quite sure? The authority that exists outside of us - law, governments, the majority of people who vote for a prime minister, the authority of the policeman, the authority of a lawyer, the authority of a surgeon, the scientists who are building the nuclear bomb, the authority of the totalitarian states and so on and on - outside. Inside of us, I...

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    ...want to solve it. I don't know if I'm making myself clear. That's why I'm asking - sir, I am sitting a little higher that doesn't give me the chairmanship or anything, or authority, I'm sitting a little higher because it's a little more convenient for everybody to see the speaker. I'm not the...

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    K: Here is a man who says, 'I am neurotic. I won't go to any other neurotic to become sane'. I know. So what does he do? He doesn't accept any authority, because I have created out of my disorder the authority.

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    K: No, no sir. No, no. My own authority. What authority have I? My authority is the authority of the society. I am conditioned to accept authority, when I reject the authority of the outer I accept the authority of the inner. And my authority of the inner is the result of the conditioning in which I have been brought up.

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    K: So as a teacher, can I look at you afresh? This is very difficult. You understand what I am saying? Can you look at me, if I am your teacher - just put it round the other way (laughs) - I come to your class, I don't know how I am dressed, whether I am clean, neat, fresh clothes, tidy, or I come sloppy. How do you look at me? If I am your...

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    So, one asks who is the teacher and what is it that we are learning? You've understood my question? Who is the teacher from whom you are learning? If you are learning how to ride a bicycle, you need a teacher. Right? How to drive a car you must have an instructor. How to work a computer, you must have an expert who knows about computers, or if you...

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    K: Generally a teacher has a message and followers - a teacher. Why don't you consider yourself as a teacher and have followers? I have made it all fairly clear, haven't I? Don't follow anybody and don't accept anybody as a teacher except you yourself become the teacher and the disciple for yourself.

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    ...things that concern our daily life, and having listened what have you learned, what are you learning? Or are you so full of questions that you're not learning? And who is the teacher? If you have a teacher you are not learning. Because you yourself are the teacher; you yourself are the disciple. There is no teacher outside you, and if you can...

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    ...are, about yourself and whether there is freedom from all that tradition, from all the tremendous conditioning of centuries. That implies you are the teacher and the disciple, there is no teacher or a disciple outside you. You understand the implication of...

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    ...of propaganda, not trying to convince you of anything whatsoever. Nor is the speaker your guru. Thank God! Nor are you his followers. You are both the teacher - you are both the teacher and the person who learns. When you are learning, that very act of learning makes you into a teacher. So we are both the disciple and the guru. If you listen very...

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    K: Ah, wait, wait, wait, wait. I said you are both the teacher and the pupil, the disciple. I did not say you are the authority. Are you the authority? If you are then you cease to be disciple and you cease to be the teacher for yourself.

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    ...Krishna conscious crowd - you know - to which you all belong. You may remember that story of a man coming to a teacher and sitting in front of him cross-legged, closing his eyes and saying to the teacher, 'I am going to meditate in order to reach the highest form of consciousness'. And the teacher said, 'All right, go ahead'. And the teacher...

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    K: Now if I were your teacher I would say, let's both of us look at that lizard - you understand? Not try to force you to look at the book. You have understood what I am saying?

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    K: Can I be a teacher of this kind if I don't know myself first? Right? So you are saying, let the house burn while I am... That is, I must understand myself first before I do anything. You see the falseness of it?

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    ...Right? You understand the meaning of that? To be a guest in a house, in your own house. Do you understand what it means? Must I explain it? You know, that means one must be a teacher as well as a disciple. There is no teacher outside of you. You are the teacher and also you are the disciple who is learning from the teacher. Not from the teacher as...

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    K: That's right. And also sir, isn't the question here, the student comes conditioned and the teacher, the educator is conditioned, both are conditioned.

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    K: No, my question is: what are we trying to do here as a community, as a teacher and the relationship with the student, and the student with the community and with the teacher, together, as a body of people, what is it we are trying to do?

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    K: So the teacher and the student have to establish a relationship. That means a relationship not of one who knows and the other who doesn't know; he sits on a platform - I am sorry, here there is no platform! (Laughter) So the establishment of right relationship between the teacher and the student is imperative. And the teacher has the...

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    So can the mind, knowing all this, that is, learning about all this, which is being educated, educating itself, learning from itself, not from somebody else, because no book can give you all this, no teacher, only one has to learn about oneself completely, and then when one is not self-centred, then perhaps one is able to observe, or see, something which is beyond all this.

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    ...sleep is a continuation of the waking hours. And we give a lot of mysterious hocus-pocus to dreams. And then these dreams need to be interpreted and you have all the professionals interpreting the dreams for you, which you can yourself observe very simply if you watch your own life, your own life during the daytime. So the question is, why should...

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    K: Gosh, how time goes! You see, all of you dream a great deal, don't you? Dream, don't you? Have you ever asked why? Not what dreams tell you, how to interpret dreams, that is an irrelevant question which we'll answer presently. But have you ever asked a relevant question, which is: why you dream at all?

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    ...will you do? I will not analyse, I see the foolishness of it - not because the speaker says so, you yourself see it. Therefore what shall I do? How to expose it? Will dreams expose it? And are dreams necessary? The professional analysts and psychologists say that you must have dreams otherwise you will go mad. Dreams are the continuation of what...

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    K: The gentleman says why do you say dreams are unnecessary, and if dreams are unnecessary is sleep also not necessary. Those are the two points. Are you interested in this question?

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    ...- analysis is thought. So through thought I hope to destroy the images that thought has created, so I am caught in a vicious circle. So, how do I deal with this? You say through dreams. Are your images revealed through dreams? And what are dreams? Why should you dream at all? Isn't that another form of analysis? I don't know if you are following....

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    K: No, don't say no - see the difficulty of it. Because I don't know what is hidden and the hidden may intimate through dreams but the dreams need to be interpreted and the whole complications - and all that will take a lot of time, won't it?

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    ...knowing analysis has no value? Right? You are rather uncertain about it. I can't go into it now, it's too - I have explained it before. If you say I will look into my dreams, I will examine my dreams. Again the same problem arises: who is the entity who is going to examine the dreams? One of the fragments of the many fragments. Right? So you ask a...

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    ...I don't know. That is right. So I'll proceed. I dream. There are dreams. What are dreams? Why should I dream? So I have to find out why I dream. What are dreams? Dreams are the continuation of my daily sleep. Which is, I haven't understood - see what is taking place, sir - I have not understood my daily life. I watch my daily life. My daily life...

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    Then if analysis, dreams are not the way, then what is? How do you, how does the mind, wipe away all the hurts, the hurts that one has received from friends, from casual acquaintances, from intimate relationship, how do you do this? Are you awaiting an answer from me? Are you? I am afraid you are. Now just a minute please, if there was nobody to...

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    ...I have, the pleasures, the pains, the anxieties, just aware. Then what goes on during sleep? Dreams, pleasant and unpleasant, dreams which indicate something that may happen in the future, dreams that warn me of certain actions and so on and so on, dreams. Or can the mind during so-called sleep renew itself totally? You have understood my...

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    ...means the analyser, which means a fragment who is going to analyse. Or through dreams discover all the fears, and that is a perilous road, to find out through dreams what we are because dreams are merely the continuation of what we are during the daily life, waking hours. No? Is all this too much in one...

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    ...Wait! I am asking a question madame, you can't say, 'Yes'. That has no meaning. Can a conscious mind expose the contents of the unconscious? Can it expose it through dreams? And what are dreams? Are not dreams the continuation in symbolic form, in a manner which needs interpretation, of your daily movement? Please think of it, look at it. I live a...

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    ...state of the brain and ends up in a mental case. So order implies the ending the problem as it arises, and therefore the movement of the daytime through the night ends and therefore no dreams, the body may move and all the rest of it, no dreams, because you have solved everything as you are moving. I don't know if you see the importance of this....

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    K: we'd be monkeys, machines! You see, and that faculty to a radical change is attributed to some outside agency and therefore we look to that and get lost in that. If we don't look to anybody and be completely free from all that, that solitude is common to all of us. I don't know if I am making myself clear?

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    ...Of course. Yes that is what I meant, the whole movement is in a certain way. And along that way I can modify, adjust, polish, a little more, a little less and so on, but if a man is concerned with a very radical change, where is he to begin? As we said the other day we've relied on the environment to change us, society to change us, various forms...

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    ...world, they have had many, many revolutions, physical revolutions, they have not changed the psychological quality of human beings. Unless there is fundamental, radical change, society will remain as it is now. And we said yesterday too, change implies time, change from this to that, change from violence to non-violence - which is now used for...

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    ...life - which is all rot, nonsense. If you can't change it now, you will never change it. Change doesn't need, doesn't require time. Which is, change, radical change can take place, as I said, when there is insight. You understand? I have used the word 'insight' previously, that is, with regard to learning. When you have an insight into the whole...

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    ...They are rather serious, demanding from each one of us considerable exercise of thought, capacity to investigate, to observe. And during this process perhaps bring about a radical change in the human mind. That is what these meetings are meant to be: that we are here to observe what is happening in the world; and also to observe what is happening...

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    ...say, man as he is cannot be radically changed. There are those who say change the environment, and man will change, and the others, the so-called religious people - have faith, believe, and attend to all the things that god has said, then perhaps man will bring about a radical change in himself. All these systems have been tried over and over...

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    ...I see what it is, I am greedy. I don't want to transform it into non-greed. I am violent. I don't want to transform it into non-violence. But that violence must undergo a radical change. Now what am I to do with it? You are following all this? What am I to do with it, what is my mind, which has been trained, educated, disciplined to be ambitious,...

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    K: Sir, let's proceed. What is blocking you, each one of us, from change, radical change? Is it we are always dealing with parts? You understand, sir? Or, taking the whole structure of our psychology and ending it. Not bit by bit by bit, taking one part after another. Is that one of our difficulties?

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    ...consciousness into a better consciousness, to a more polished consciousness - less violent but occasionally violent, and so on, so on. The ending of the content of consciousness is radical change radical mutation. I won't use the word 'change' there. So, why don't we change? Move away from this totally. Have we made the question clear? Why, after...

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    And our chief concern and commitment, if we have been at all serious here, has been the transformation, the radical change of the human mind - the mind which includes the brain, the heart, and the whole organism as a whole, that has created this world around us, the world of corruption, violence, brutality, vanity and all the structure which has, and does, bring about war.

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    Sirs, you see throughout the ages man has sought something which is beyond time, which is beyond thought, beyond all experience, something totally the origin of all things. He wanted it, he wanted to enquire, find out. And there were those people who said, 'I have found out, I will tell you all about it.' They were caught in that trap. And that is...

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    As you say, the infinite, can one experience the infinite? This is really quite a fundamental question, not only here but in life. We can experience something which we have already known. I experience meeting you. That's an experience, meeting you, or you meeting me, or my meeting X. And when I meet you next time I recognise you, don't I? I say,...

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    ...I am going into it. So in meditation there is no experience. Right? I wonder if you see that. This is very important to understand. Experience implies, the word 'experience' means to go through, not to hold something back, to go through and finish. The meaning of that word. And also in experience several things are implied. When you have an...

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    So when the brain and the mind and the body are absolutely quiet, that is, when there is no entity that is measuring all the time, comparing - 'I have had this experience yesterday and I'd like to have it more, or I would like to have further experience,' which is all measurement.

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    ...American girls and boys, and it is now spreading throughout the world, have sex very early. Don't be shy, this is happening. They want to have all the experience immediately - swimming, anything - experience - skiing. So they want, as they are young, they want to experience everything at once in a short time. Right? So as they grow older, see what...

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    ...Not very. You see sir, would you go into this a little bit? Experience is always limited - right? I may blow up that experience into a kind of fantastic affair and then set up a shop to sell my experience, but that experience is limited. And so knowledge is always limited. And this knowledge is operating in the brain. This knowledge is the brain....

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    ...No, sir. That's why the difficulty. Wait, sir, let's finish this first. I am unhappy, miserable, sorrow - laden with it. And I want to experience something which has no sorrow because that is my craving. I want to have an ideal, a principle, or an end, which by struggling I ultimately get that. That's my craving. And I want to experience that and...

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    K: Yes. Sir, I had an experience yesterday, pleasant or unpleasant, and I carry it over today, the brain carries it over today. Can that experience of yesterday, pleasurable or painful, end with yesterday? Otherwise it is a continuity of the past.

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    ...- there are ten different conclusions, opinions, expressions. Now what is one to do? Which is the right thing in this? Your opinion or my opinion, your experience or my experience, how do we find out the truth of any matter?

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    K: That's right, sir. I think, my experience is, as long as I remain a Hindu I am completely secure - that's my experience, I am that experience and that's what destroys biological survival. Can you give that up?

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    So is our approach free from our conclusions, from our experience, from our knowledge? If it is from our experience, from our knowledge, you have already answered the problem, which will be according to time, which will be according to your conditioning. But if you come to it freely, to observe, then there is immediate action.

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    So knowledge, experience is limited. Knowledge is limited. That is clear if you observe historically the process of science, from the Galileo, from the ancient scientist to the modern scientist they have been gradually building up day after day, and based on experience. So knowledge is based on experience. So knowledge and experience are limited....

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    K: And also, sir, the question arises, can one actually experience something which is not experienceable? We use the word 'experience' so easily - 'realise', 'experience', 'attain', 'self-realisation', all these things - can one actually experience the feeling of supreme ecstasy? Let's take that for the moment, that word. Can one experience it?...

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    So without experience there is no knowledge. The scientists are adding everyday something new. Please follow this carefully, if you don't mind. Experience is limited. Right? Because we are adding more and more to it, through knowledge. Experience, knowledge stored in the brain as memory and then that is the beginning of thought. Right? Am I right?...

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    K: Of course. Thought is memory, which is experience, which is knowledge, stored up - it doesn't matter where, in my big toe, stored up - and when it is challenged it operates.

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    K: But sir, the origin, the beginning, how does desire - desire being wanting something, wanting or not wanting, this movement of desire - what is the origin, the beginning of desire?

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    ...I wonder if you see all this? May I go on with this? Please sirs, don't look at me. That's not important. Find out for yourself the actuality of the beginning of desire - not how to discipline desire, we'll come to that presently. But we are just observing the whole movement of desire - the seeing, the contact, then the sensation, then thought...

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    ...man. Both in the so-called spiritual world and in the world of - in the exterior world. The expansion and the contraction of desire. And now we are trying to find out what is the origin, the beginning of desire. We are not saying we must suppress or fulfil. We are trying - not trying - we are observing the whole movement of desire from the very...

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    ...am going to have it'. I don't know if you have watched all this. So - wait a minute - there is the beginning of desire, the beginning of thought - thought we said is physical as well as chemical - perception of that house, sensation, contact if you touch it, and desire and thought. Right? This is, sexually, visually, psychologically,...

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    K: So, I am asking, what is the origin, the beginning of desire? Why has desire become such an extraordinary important part of our life?

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    ...arises. But if you start with complexity then you will not go any further. You understand? If we start simply then you can go very far. So we are looking at it, the root and the beginning of desire.

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    ...it very carefully, slowly. The seeing with your eyes, optical perception, seeing the flowers, the trees, the cars, the women, seeing the world. That is the beginning of desire: seeing, tasting, smelling. So, seeing a tree, a house, a car, a woman, a man, a lovely garden, seeing and touching it, contact with it, then sensation. Then thought, please...

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    ...You see something beautiful which appeals to your senses, that is the sensation. Then thought creates the image of you having that. Thought when it creates the image is the origin, or the beginning of desire. Is this clear? Obviously. This is fairly clear, I don't have to repeat it. But the question is: can thought not create the image but only...

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    ...- beauty can only go with integrity, not just the face. Seeing, contact, sensation, then where does desire come into being? You understand my question? Where is the origin, the beginning of desire? Not in this: the seeing, the contact, the sensation, it is no desire. But when does desire begin to assert itself? It begins when thought - go slowly,...

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    ...investigation, but if desire exists and the wandering nature of desire from one thing to another. So, we have to examine together what is desire. What is the origin, the beginning of desire? Not how to control desire, not suppress it, transcend and all that kind of stuff, but the beginning. If one can understand the origin, the source of desire,...

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    So we have to find out in observing - and this observation needs freedom in the world of reality. May I go on? I am exploring, so don't jump on me yet. Later on you can. There are two kinds of freedom: the freedom in the world of reality and freedom totally outside of reality. If we deny freedom in the world of reality then we become slaves to...

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    So perhaps if we began talking over together what we were talking about yesterday, which is: what is the meaning of meditation, is it worthwhile doing it, and what is the mind that is meditative, whether it has any experience at all, whether it is capable of acting in this world, in the world of reality. That's what we were talking about...

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    And unless we put order in that world of reality we cannot go further. Right? I hope we are following each other, at least a little bit. We live a disorderly life in our daily activity. That is a fact. And is it possible socially, morally, ethically and so on to bring order in the world of reality, in the world of thought. Right? And who is to...

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    So we are asking: who is to bring order in this world of reality where there is such confusion, misery, pain and violence and so on, a world of reality which thought has created, can thought bring order in that reality? You follow? So who is to bring order in the world of reality? The communists say, according to Marx, that control the...

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    So I must understand clearly that suffering, pleasure, fear and all that is in the world of reality as thought - my suffering, my fears, everything there. Therefore truth has no relationship to reality. No relationship! I can only say that with complete sincerity, complete authenticity, when I have understood totally the reality. I wonder if I...

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    ...live with things created by thought as ideas, we live with things called conclusions, which are all verbal, and we have various opinions, judgements and so on. That is the world of reality. And what is the relationship between that and truth? How shall we find this out? This has been one of the problems of the ancient Hindus, and some philosophers...

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    So from that arises: is it possible to live - please listen - in the world of reality without control? You understand my question? Without any form of control - sexually, which predominates in the western world, and that is becoming a neurotic thing and distorting the mind, everything - no control, is it possible to live in the world of reality...

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    ...wait a minute. From that arises That is the world of reality, that is the world in which we live, that is the world which thought has created. Right? We went through that. I'll go into it a hundred times, explain to you if you want it, but that is the reality in which we live. And the question was: who is it that gets out, and is it possible for...

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    ...in. And out of this world we create a different world, a different philosophy, born out of this world. Out of the world of reality we create a world of thought which is called philosophical, intellectual, godly, spiritual and all the rest of it.

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    ...you understand the whole nature of reality, all its complexities, mere enquiry into what is truth is an escape. And we are saying let us look into the world of reality, the world of reality which thought has created, nothing else. And in that world of reality the conflict is the movement of life. I may not be conscious of that conflict sitting...

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    ...what is relationship between human beings when there is no attachment? Attachment brings the pain, the conflict, the contradiction, the isolation and that brings about disorder in the world of reality. And one must have complete order in the world of reality, because we are going to much we are going to something - when you have established order...

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    ...must exercise your brain, not just casually listen and interrupt with something or other. You are giving your attention to one thing only, which is to find out, learn together if it is possible to live in the world of reality without a single conflict. And I say to you, it is possible, let's find out. And to find out you must investigate, you must...

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    ...disturbance, wanting to hold it and yet, because in itself it is broken, it must break up. Obviously you can see this. So then what is relationship in reality? In the world of reality? In the world of reality must there always be conflict between you and me? Wife and husband, boy and girl? Must there always be conflict? You follow? Because this...

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    ...form of society apparently, and the world is copying it. And unless in that reality - please follow this, if you don't mind - unless there is order in the structure of thought, in the world of reality, which is the world in which we live daily, we will not be able to end sorrow. A man who is concerned with the understanding and going beyond...

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    Which is: as long as one lives in the world of reality - which we do - can there be the ending of suffering in that world of reality? Wait, wait, wait. Think about it. Look at it, look at it! Don't say, yes or no. If I don't if there is no ending of suffering in the world of reality, which is order, if there is no ending of suffering, which is...

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    ...or reaction which brings fear? Sir, please, this is rather a difficult question, to find this out, that is, can the mind, can it ever be in a state - again that word 'state' implies static, I don't mean that - can it ever be in a quality, in a state, where it has no movement reaching out or going - you follow? - completely whole in...

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    ...if you will, we can enquire into this question: what is a religious mind? What is the state of the mind which can see what truth is? You may say, 'There is no such thing as truth, there is no such thing as God, God is dead, we must make the best of this world and get on with it. Why ask such questions when there is so much confusion, so much...

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    K: Being in a state in which there is no peace, we want to experience a state which is absolute, permanent, eternal peace. Right?

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    So you would rather live, continue in the state in which you are - conditioned, creating mischief, not facing danger, and ready to be killed.

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    K: All right, you cannot recollect, if you want to put it, you cannot remember, recollect what was the state of the mind or feeling when it was hurt. Is that explained somewhat?

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    K: That state, leave don't bring in consciousness and all that because then we'll go off into something else. So at the moment of anger there is not me who is angry, there is only that state. Then a second or a few seconds later the division takes place: I have been angry.

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    K: Like communists, they say, the state is responsible. The state - worship the state, the state is the god and you are responsible to the state. Which means they have conceived what the state should be, formulated ideationally and according to that you act. That is not a responsible action. That's irresponsible action. Whereas action means the...

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    K: Now just a minute, let's hold onto that. What is the state of the mind that perceives or that realises the individuality is an illusion. Go on, sir, answer. Yep, (laughs) I've got it.

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    K: What is the state, if I understood it rightly and please correct me sir if I have not, what is the state of the mind and the heart when the observer and the observed are one? That's right, sir?

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    K: Don't expand it. Can you look at that fact that you have a belief? Whatever it is: god, the State is the most important, or whatever it is.

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    K: I see what you are trying to say. Can the mind be aware of a state in which there is no conflict? Is that what you are trying to say?

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    ...which will help you to go beyond yourself. All the religions have tried to do this with their monasteries. Right? The communist society, which worships the State, said 'Go beyond yourself, the State is more important'. But the 'me' operates all the time - in the monk, in the commissar, in the politburo, in the Mao - everywhere. So we say, create...

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    K: Being in a state in which there is no peace, we want to experience a state which is absolute, permanent, eternal peace. Right?

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    K: You may identify with the State and so on and so on, but you are still good old me there is operating. So is it thought doesn't see its own limit? And know, realise, it cannot change itself? Realise it.

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    K: Ah, no, no, no. Something else takes place. You see, that's another, that means you are now come to a state, according to you, sir, that you don't act at all. There is no action.

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    The meaning of life is also the meaning of action. Life is action. And if one has understood or realised or come upon that quality of mind that has grasped the full significance, the meaning of life, from that naturally grows the question: what is action? What is action in daily life? That is, what is the relationship between action and the...

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    Now what is the meaning of life? Because I think if we could understand that, not verbally, not merely intellectually, structurally, linguistically, but seriously go into it and find out for ourselves what is the meaning of life. And then perhaps we shall be able to find out for ourselves how to live in this world, though we may, at least some of...

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    ...the society, not about yourself.' But all those statements have no meaning because one has not found the meaning of life, the meaning of existence, which cannot be found in any book, in another, in following a guru, an authority, none of them give you the meaning of existence, you have to find it for yourself. That is what we are going to do. I...

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    ...rationally, enquired seriously. You are depending on another, and that is the very essence of degeneration. And you have done it for thousands of years. And what is the meaning of life? Is there in life, in living, an eternity? Or is all life transient? What is the purity of life? Because what is pure is the...

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    ...position, prestige and when you do have it, what is it? So you have never found out for yourself if life has a meaning. You always ask what is the purpose of life, the goal of life, not the meaning of life, but the purpose. And the purpose can be invented by the clever people or you can invent out of your own misery, confusion, conflict, a...

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    We were talking about the meaning of life the last time that we met here. I do not know if you have really understood, not verbally or logically, but seeing directly for oneself the full meaning of what life is, and if it has any significance, and if it has what is that significance? That is what we were talking about the day before yesterday.

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    ...is so vast and therefore it is something most extraordinarily sacred, and what do we do with it? You have to answer this question, whether you are old or young, well established in a position - wealth, power - is that the whole meaning of life? And if that is the whole meaning of life, which is to have knowledge, knowing that knowledge will always...

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    ...and total creation, which is death. And to understand that problem which has torn man, which has man has pursued something, tried to understand the problem, overcome it - unless we lay the foundation, which we have been doing, because in comprehending what death is, then we shall see what the meaning of life is. At present our life has no meaning...

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    Now if you and the speaker together share this question in all seriousness, committing ourselves totally to find out: what is the meaning of life? Has it any meaning at all? And if you are putting that question: has it any meaning? - are you putting it as a reaction because you find it has no meaning? Or are you putting it to find out, to enquire,...

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    ...and an escape, an avoidance, a metaphysical, mystical, non-realistic but romantic escape. So we are not, at least the speaker is not, using that word as a means of escape, but rather to understand the very existence, the whole meaning of life. I think that has great meaning. And meditation becomes then a benediction, an extraordinary thing that...

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    So is pleasure, we haven't finished the whole problem of it yet, perhaps we will do it on Tuesday, is pleasure the meaning of life? Because we must settle that, you follow? We must find out for ourselves what is the meaning of life, because when one has found that the whole meaning of relationship, which is love, has quite a different meaning.

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    ...or by their very clever reasoning project or give a meaning to life. And we generally accept such meaning, because we have no meaning to our life, and if there is somebody who says, 'This is the meaning of life', we are only too eager, delighted to accept what others have said.

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    So if you have put away opinion; what others have said the meaning of life is, it doesn't matter who it is, your saviours, your gods, your priests, your books; and also you have put away all the imaginations, contrivances, the cunning speculative thoughts, then you come to the basic issue, which is pleasure. And is pleasure the meaning of life?...

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    Because once you discover it as a reality, not as an idea, as something somebody else has projected, or you yourself have projected, but if you can discover for yourself the purpose, the meaning of life - the meaning, the significance, the depth, the beauty - then it has a relationship with regard to your actions, with regard to your relationship with another, with regard to your whole living.

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    Now when one asks what is the meaning of life, you immediately have conclusions. You say, it is this, some ideology. Right? You give it a significance according to your conditioning. If you are an idealist - I hope you are not - if you are an idealist you give the ideological significance according to your conditioning, according to your...

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    ...No. Oh, lord. Sir, I don't want to enter into all this, it is too difficult. There are three arts one must learn: the art of observation, the art of hearing, the art of learning; they are not three separate things but we divide them for convenience. There's the art of listening, which means, I listen to what you say, I don't bring in my own ideas,...

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    And also there is an art of learning. Isn't there? And what do we mean by learning? Generally it is understood that learning means memorising, accumulating, storing up, to use what you have stored up skilfully or not. That is generally called learning, memorising. School, college, university, or some technological subject, or learning a language,...

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    As we have talked very often, the art of listening, the art of seeing, the art of learning. The art of listening is to listen so that naturally everything is put in its right place. The meaning of that word 'art' means that: to put things where they belong. And the art of seeing is to observe without any distortion, obviously. If there is any...

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    So where there is the art of learning, where there is putting everything in its right place and therefore to listen without any conclusion, without any opinion - which are all distorting factors. And in that listening one discovers the false and the true, without any effort because when there is actual attention given to listening that very...

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    ...without any movement of thought? Which is only possible if you put thought in the right place. And the art of learning, which means not accumulating, then it becomes knowledge, and thought, but the movement of learning without the accumulation. So there is the art of listening, the art of seeing, the art of learning, which means put everything...

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    ...influences, of the many cultures, many words, propaganda, influences. You are that. And if you know how to look, how to read, how to listen, how to see - the art of seeing, the art of learning, the art of listening - everything is there, right in front of you. But we don't have the energy, the inclination, or the interest. We want somebody to tell...

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    So, as I said, there is the art of seeing, the art of listening and the art of learning. The learning is movement from the past to the present, modified, the future, and that is experiencing, and so on. This whole cycle is what we call learning. That is psychological learning as well as technological learning. Right? Which means what? The mind is...

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    ...this evening not only listen but observe your own thoughts, your own feelings, your own impressions, your experiences and see if they have any validity. And also there is the art of learning. Most of us learn by accumulating knowledge, facts, going through school, college, university, if you are so lucky, which is to memorise. But also there is an...

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    ...preconceived judgement, opinion, to see actually 'what is', not your conclusions about 'what is'. Then the art of learning, not memorising, which becomes very mechanical, because our minds, our brains have already become so extraordinarily mechanical. So the art of learning implies freedom to observe, to listen without prejudice, without...

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    ...do you think is the greatest art, the supreme art? Is it the art of listening, the art of seeing, observing, perceiving and so on, and the art of learning? The art of hearing, the art of seeing, the art of learning. And what do we mean by seeing, observing, perceiving? I am asking. Please, together we are investigating into these questions, not...

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    ...Oh yes, no, sir - forget attachment for the moment, don't bring that in. Do you want to find out, sir, the art of learning, the art - what it is, you know, the whole business of it. Do you want to learn? What am I to say? If you want to learn, if you want to learn the art of learning - right? - what price do you pay for it? Seven pounds a day?...

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    ...know we are talking about something very, very difficult. This requires a great deal of attention, a great deal of inward learning, which is discipline, it requires the art of learning. Learning is not merely acquiring knowledge, but learning implies a constant movement, freedom from knowledge to learn not more, learn something new. So there must...

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    So there is the art of hearing, the art of listening, and there is the art of learning. It is not difficult, all this. If you go into it you will see it for yourself. When we learn, we learn to acquire knowledge, and according to that knowledge act skilfully. When you go to school, college, university, that is the whole process of learning -...

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    K: Yes, he hears the noise of that train going by - that's a very good question. You all heard that train going by - right? Did you respond to that noise completely? You understand, sir? So that there is no resistance to the noise, there is no irritation from the noise. You are totally with the noise. Look at those mountains, which you have looked...

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    ...first, what does it mean to listen? To listen to a statement, to listen to the noise of that crow, to listen to that honking of that car, to listen to your own thought, to your own feelings. And to listen implies no interference of thought. Because the moment thought intervenes by saying, 'It is good or bad, I don't like that noise, I do like that...

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    ...All that may be an escape from our own troubles, anxieties, depressions. So can we live an aesthetic life of deep perception? Be aware of our words, be aware of the noise of this country, the vulgarity of human beings. Because one learns far more in silence than in noise. This all may sound platitudes, but they are not. This requires a great deal...

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    K: How can I have a balance, a harmony between the noise of my activity in the functioning and also inwardly at the same time keep peace and quiet and so on, all that.

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    So after having said that with regard to that noise, which is called music, let's proceed with what we were talking about yesterday. I hope that is all right. Unfortunately the wind is blowing from that direction.

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    K: You are missing the whole thing. He has been in all that noise, all the travail, all that. He is moving away, moving, going up.

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    ...No, don't, not, 'I must be aware'. Are you aware, sir, of that noise of the aeroplane? You don't say, 'I must be aware'. Are you aware of the song of that stream? Are you aware of the shirt, or whatever the lady has put on, the colour of that person sitting next to you - what she looks like, what he looks like, whether they are suffering - are you...

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    K: Please listen to what I I cannot do a thing about the rattle, the noise, the roar of that train, therefore I don't put up a resistance to it, therefore I listen. When I listen there is no noise. There is noise but it doesn't affect me. In the same way when I realise I am neurotic - neurotic, realise it - I am holding on to a particular belief,...

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    ...so arrogant because we rely so much on our knowledge. We are certain; our beliefs, our conclusions our desires are so strong that we have lost all sense of deep, natural humility, which again, it is a fact - how strong when a Frenchman says, 'I'm a Frenchman' or when you say, 'I'm British'. I don't know if you have noticed - God-given race - and...

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    ...we see, observe, have an insight that to go beyond 'what is' you must have immense energy. How is this energy to be brought about? By not escaping, by putting away conclusions, beliefs, dogmas and all the rest of it? Then the problem arises who is the entity who is putting these away? You are following all this? May I go on? We are sharing this?...

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    K: My belief is very real, it may be illusory - all beliefs are illusory, but because I believe so strongly they are real to me.

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    Obviously all the organised religions with their beliefs and dogmas, with their priests, with their structure which thought has put together - if we could put all that aside, because in themselves they have no validity, except what man has invented, except a few have experienced and assert that this is so or that is not so.

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    ...together the basic cause of this degeneration. In exploring we must both be free to look. You understand, sir? We must both be free to observe, in that observation, our prejudices, our inclinations, our beliefs have no place. When a good scientist is investigating, he doesn't bring in his personality, his wishes, his hopes. That would be a rotten...

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    K: And really the deep non-sectarian religious people, if there are, there must be some who are totally free from all organised religions and beliefs, rituals, dogmas - they have said it can be done. Very few have said this.

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    K: Yes, sir, can you, can I or you be aware totally of our conditioning, not bit by bit, bit by bit, but the nationality, the superstition, the beliefs, the educated, sophisticated self, you know, the whole thing. There's so much to go in.

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    ...follow? That's the proof of my freedom from that conditioning, I have tested it. I have tested it by saying, I am not a Hindu. I don't go to their temples, to their beliefs, to their books, nonsense, I put it aside. I also put aside the Christian I don't belong to any of that, which is an actual act, not just a theory. Right? Because I don't want...

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    So we are enquiring what is the root of fear, not a particular fear but the root of all fear. The root of fear is time. What I will be, what I have been, what I might not be. Time is the past, the present and the future. The past modifying itself in the present and continuing in the future. Fear of something that has happened psychologically or...

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    ...many branches, and when one sees the central fear the branches begin to wither away. Is there one central fear - like the trunk of a tree, though it has many branches, and if you could understand that one root of fear you have understood the whole network of fear? Now how do you approach this? From the periphery, or from the centre? You understand...

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    We are asking: what is the root of fear? What do you think it is? Don't answer me, please, there are too many of you. What do you think is the root of fear, both unconsciously as well as consciously? Bearing in mind, through education, school, college, university - if you are lucky to go to those places, or unlucky to go to those places - your...

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    So we are going to find out for ourselves whether fear can disappear through time or the very time itself is the root of fear. Right? Is that clear? So what is the root of fear? Please enquire together - what is the root of it, what is the cause of it? What is fear? You all know what fear is - fear of not becoming, not achieving, fear of the dark,...

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    ...incident of the past, continued as memory, and that memory breeding fear. We all know what fear is. Not a particular form of fear - fear of darkness, fear of something or other, but we are concerned with the root of fear, what is the cause of fear. And in asking that question, to discover for oneself the root of it. Not merely the clipping off the...

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    ...out. Are you free of fear? Fear of public opinion, fear of your parents, fear of your father, your husband, wife, fear of so many things. Which is, will you trim the tree of fear, or go to the very root of fear? Fear of not following your guru. You understand? Fear of your gods, fear of not doing the right thing, becoming respectable. You...

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    ...we are investigating into fear. To go into the root of fear we must understand why the brain, thought, lives in images. Please follow this a little bit. Why you live and create images, pictures about future, about your wife, your husband, about the speaker and so on. Why you create pictures. Because if you do not create pictures, image, is there...

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    ...inwardly, every action becomes distorted; there is no meticulous clear observation. So it becomes very important to understand this question of fear. So we are asking; what is the root of fear? Not only the fear of death - in this country you don't talk about death. It is there but you don't talk about it, you don't look at it, you don't want to...

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    ...consequences of it? The running away from it, rationalising it, suppressing it, or avoiding it and the identification becomes greater and greater and so on? Now what is the root of fear? You understand? Not, I am afraid about something, or because of something, or I am afraid that you might do something, but apart from that, the very root of it....

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    ...must be freedom from fear, naturally - deep rooted, conscious or unconscious fear. That is a problem which can be observed, resolved, because the root of fear - the root, not the various branches and the leaves of that tree - the root of that fear is time. Right? I am afraid of tomorrow. I am afraid of what has happened. The physical pain which I...

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    ...as fear, and the future implications that it must not happen again, and it might happen therefore I am afraid of it - you follow? So I am asking myself and you are asking yourself: is it time that is the root of fear? You're following? Are you following? Right? Are you getting bored with all this? Are you getting bored with all this? No. I hope...

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    Will you take one fear at a time - fear of loneliness, fear of death, fear of not having a job, fear of that your wife or girlfriend may turn away from you - one by one; or the root of fear? You understand my question? Which is it that you want to do? - the whole fear or the varying expressions of fear. Well, sirs? If you tackle the root of fear -...

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    ...we are asking if it is at all possible to be free of fear, absolutely. Psychologically, inwardly, what is the root of fear? What does fear mean? Fear of something that has given you pain, fear of what might happen. That is, the past or what might happen in the future. Right? Not what might happen now because now there is no fear. But you can see...

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    ...one fear which spreads out as a tree with many branches, with many leaves, and when you are lopping off one branch there are a dozen other branches. Is it possible to go to the very root of fear? Do you understand my question? That is what we are going to do. Not how to get rid of fear, which is too childish, but rather see what the root of fear...

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    ...of not being able to acquire enough food - the whole biological, physiological fears? Then there are all the psychological fears, and can these fears be eliminated one by one, or can the mind cut at the very root of fear so that it is dead, gone, finished? So that is what we are going to discuss this...

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    K: Yes. I understand. Are there schools for wisdom. There are schools for knowledge, of course. Can wisdom be learnt? Is that it sir?

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    K: Look, madame, the gentleman is asking, which we have asked before, how can we educate the totality of man, in schools, in colleges, in universities, in the family, in our relationship intimately, how can this be done? Can we stick to that thing for the time, please?

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    ...he has - not he has - there are several Foundations, one in India, one in this country, America and Canada. In India there are five schools, in different parts of that country, with a great deal of land. And they are schools, they are operated under the K Foundation, which is responsible for the land, to see that the schools are more or less in...

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    So please, the speaker is completely and totally involved in all the schools - in India, in England, and here. These schools are not being created against his wishes; he is involved completely, and also with the centre. So having said that, let us talk over together the question of education.

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    ...world. Not your theories or my theories, but what is going on with your children and other children. Right? In that, in schools, there is neither compassion, nor clarity, nor the communication of that clarity and compassion through skill. That doesn't exist. It only exists as a theory because you have heard me talk about it. Or you might have read...

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    ...It is a cooperative business, it isn't just you send the child to the school and forget all about it. Here in these schools they are strict vegetarians, and when they go back they eat meat, so the conflict begins - you know all the rest of it. And this is a question that cannot be so easily answered, because to run these schools you have to have...

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    K: Please, sir, you see what he is going off? You see he has gone off to the schools with which I am connected. He is not enquiring if he lives in disorder, he wants to find out if the schools are in disorder. You see the escape?

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    K: You have had schools here in this country, Canada, England and five or six schools in India, and you have been talking over fifty years and has there been one single human being who has been transformed. Do you want to discuss that?

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    You know there are many schools in India - we have six schools in India. There is one at Brockwood, one in Canada, one in California, Ojai. First of all, it is very difficult to get the right kind of teachers. When they come to teach, the difficulty is they have all kinds of opinions, how it should be done, how should not be done, the teaching,...

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    K: No, then what? I don't like the others. I don't like their looks, their smell, their clothes, their beards, their hair. I like this group. And that group gives me a great sense of warmth.

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    ...together. So our responsibility is not to the chaos that is going on, and try to modify it, change it, decorate it, or join this group or that group, or that institution and so on, but as a human being who is the world, and that human being has to go through radical transformation otherwise you will have no good society. And most of us find it...

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    ...sirs, come on. Which is, any form of identification with a group, however comfortable it is, however satisfying it is, this identification implies not only psychological wellbeing, the psychological wellbeing in division, and therefore destruction, but also it brings about a conformity of the group as against another group. Right? So our question...

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    K: So shall we say human beings don't radically transform themselves - they are frightened of being isolated from the group, banished from the group. That is one reason.

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    ...memory and so on. And its activity is always limited because of its own knowledge, it is breaking up. It is happening in this country, don't you know it? One group against another group. The group which is anti-Brahmin, and the group which is Brahmin, the Muslim. You follow? You know all this. And in this state the mind says, is there security?...

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    K: You understand the word prejudice? You don't belong to my caste, to my group, to my ideological community, so I am prejudiced against you. It arises, doesn't it, from having an opinion about somebody. Do you know what opinion means? No? Yes? Have you opinions?

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    K: I don't know if I am making myself clear. Wait a minute. That is, if I don't psychologically belong to a group, then I am out of that group.

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    ...we met here. We were saying, the importance of working together, the importance of co-operation, because most of us live in a world that is completely broken, fragmented, a world in which there is constant struggle, one group against another group, one ideology against another, one nation against another, one class and so on. And technologically...

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    K: You know there is a war in Lebanon. One group against another group, Christian - Muslim and Syrians against Israel, and so on and so on. There is tremendous murder going on there. Right? Are you related to that?

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    K: You either worship him or throttle it. So if there was a great many people, a group of us who felt this thing absolutely, you understand what it would mean?

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    ...a circus it is, what nonsense it is, or how marvellous it is? You follow? What was your... you are not doing what I'm What do you think about all this, the wars, the terrorism that is going on, one group fighting another group, like in Lebanon - right? You follow? Shia against Suni, Christians against... what is your reaction to all...

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    If one sees this very clearly, that thought which has created the modern as well as the ancient civilisations, thought which is the response of memory, thought which is physical as well as chemical, if that thought which has built the whole human structure of behaviour, technological knowledge, technological activity and the science and so on and so on, the movement of that thought, which is time, which is measure, is the world of reality.

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    ...So what shall I do? What shall I do as an ordinary man, I realise technological knowledge and all the rest of it, but knowledge which I have accumulated, which is divisive, which is destructive, which is rather petty, and yet I hold on to that and I realise I must let it go but I can't. What shall I do? I think this is the average person's problem...

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    ...The brain can function happily, easily, without effort, if it feels completely secure. Right? So it has found security in knowledge - right? - knowledge being technological knowledge, in book knowledge. So it says: as long as I have knowledge, I am secure - right? - which means knowledge implies accumulating information and gathering information,...

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    So, knowledge has been accumulated through time - scientific knowledge, technological knowledge, knowledge of a language and so on. To learn a language I need time. To learn any technological I must have time, and so on and on. Knowledge, which is the product of time, must exist, otherwise I can't do anything, I can't talk to you, I can't...

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    ...may be one of the fundamental reasons of our conflict, of our ignorance. Not the knowledge of outside, technological knowledge, scientific knowledge, medical knowledge, and so on, but the accumulated knowledge of humanity which is the whole burden of the past. That may be one of the basic causes of conflict. We have talked a bit about it and we'll...

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    ...otherwise you can't go home, otherwise you couldn't write a letter, we couldn't speak in English together, understand each other. Scientific knowledge, technological knowledge is absolutely necessary to function. We see that. That is, if you would communicate in Italian, you must learn Italian - gather, study the meaning of words, the verbs, how...

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    The necessary things are knowledge - how to drive a car, how to speak a language, technological knowledge - please follow this carefully - technological knowledge, the knowledge of reading, writing, and all the things involved in that, but in our human relationship, between man and woman, every incident in that relationship is registered. Right?...

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    ...may repeat, we must be absolutely clear of the function of knowledge. You have accumulated within the last hundred and fifty years more technological knowledge than ever before, tremendous knowledge, otherwise you couldn't have gone to the Moon, spaceship and so on, so on. You have invented, man has invented all the terrible instruments of war,...

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    ...form of conclusion. But when one sees actually, in daily life, how knowledge is so extraordinarily limited, you may have technological knowledge, and you must have, and to that knowledge more can be added, it can be constantly expanded, but is there the accumulation of psychological knowledge from which action takes place? You understand? Are we...

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    ...when there is division. And I took the feeling which is called envy, and one sees the result, the effect and the cause of that envy, the effect in the world, the effect in oneself, the bitterness, the anger, the jealousy, you know the hatred that is born out of envy, the bitterness, and will knowledge resolve that envy? You may rationalise it and...

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    K: I am all that, sir. Right? I won't even call it a bundle. I am greed, I am envy, I am anger, I suffer, all that is me. Right? And I won't, you know, that's simple, I won't enlarge it. All that's me.

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    ...So we should be very clear with regard to this. Is the analyser different from the analysed? Please ask, question. If one is angry or envious, when you analyse that envy, is the analyser different from the anger, the envy? You are following all this? Or the analyser is the analysed. Right? Because when you are angry or envious you are that envy,...

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    ...'I must go beyond it', 'I must suppress it'? - just to look at it without the observer. Do it please as we are talking now. That is, take your particular form, or particular tendency, or take - which most people are - envy. All right, let's take that. You know what envy is, don't you, very well? You are very familiar with that. Envy is comparison....

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    K: What is envy, sir? Isn't that a factor of energy? Envy is a form of competition, and where there is competition there is ruthlessness. When you are competing, you are ruthless, you are violent. And on that ruthlessness, in the name of god, in the name of peace, in the name of whatever it is, you are living. All that is energy. Right? Then comes...

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    ...explain we'll explain this briefly and I hope it will be clear. One is conditioned to accept envy, envy being measurement, comparison. Someone is bright, intelligent, has success, applauded, and the other, I, have not. Through comparison, through measurement, envy is cultivated from childhood. So there is envy as an object, as something outside of...

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    ...assumes a certain responsibility and says, 'I am different from the thing which I observe'. That is, I am not envy, because I can control envy, I can shape envy, I can run away from envy, but it cannot change envy because it is a fragment of itself. Envy is a fragment of the observer who says, 'I am different from envy'. So, when the observer is...

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    When you are greedy, envious, is that envy different from you? Or you are envy - of course. But when there is a division between envy and you, then you do something about envy - control it, shape it, yield to it, and so on. So where there is division between you and the quality, there must be conflict. Clear? But the actuality is you are envy....

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    K: I see, I see. You are saying there are positive and negative sides to envy. Envy is a factor for most of us, pathological, as neurological, as (inaudible) and so on, so on, so on. Now, being envious, what has it resulted in the world? Oh, sir, come on.

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    ...transformation. Experiment, try, test it, don't agree with it, test it. You know you are envious - don't you? - that you are much nicer looking than I am, that you are more intelligent than I am, that you have a bigger house - envy. Now the opposite of that word 'envy' is what? Not to be envious. Right? Which is the fact there? Which is the fact?...

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    K: I am going to point out something, so please kindly listen, it may be something new you have not heard. I first said envy arises through comparison. Right? Do you dispute that?

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    K: Oh, yes, I'm envious, you've a bigger house, better dressed, you've more money, all the rest of it, everybody perceives this envy, this jealousy, this antagonism. So is it possible, being envious, to be free of it instantly, and not allow time to intervene? That is the whole point.

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    ...- of course, you say what you want and I will listen most respectfully, in the same way I'll listen to you most respectfully, which is, first listen to me. I know, one knows anger, envy. That's fairly simple. And I say how does envy arise? Envy arises through comparison. Right? I envy you because you have got a car, position, power, money, social...

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    K: Of course, we said that very clearly. So if one is envious, which is a sensory response, and therefore thought has created this envy. Now we say, generally we say, give me time to be free of that envy.

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    ...go on explaining but at the end of that explanation we are still greedy. Now, a human being who observes what is happening in the world can see one of the factors of this mess, of this disaster, of this tremendous crisis that is going on - is one of the factors is envy. And as a human being living in this world, what is he to do? Just go on with...

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    So what shall I do with this loneliness? You've understood my question? What shall I do with the loneliness: the 'I' who has created the loneliness, the isolation, says, 'What shall I do?' I wonder if you see this? Please.

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    So our question is this now: one has heard, if you have paid attention to it, one has heard that identification with another brings about separation, because that identification with another is based on your own emptiness, on your own loneliness, on your own desire to escape from yourself, but the escaping from yourself, your loneliness, is always there.

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    K: Like religion, science, worship, prayers, anxieties, sorrow, attachment, detachment, loneliness and suffering and confusion and ache and anxiety, loneliness, all that.

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    So we are saying, can you live with that loneliness, observe it without wanting to go beyond it, suppress it, run away from it, without giving it any direction, which means - listen to it carefully - which means thought has created that loneliness by your activities, and thought then says, 'I must escape from it'. So can you look at it without any...

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    ...looking for himself, his position, his power, his arrogance - you know. He is cultivating this loneliness and that loneliness appears with extraordinary vitality and strength when you are by yourself or amongst a crowd you suddenly realise how extraordinarily isolated you are. And that is another form of...

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    ...Ah, then (laughs). Right, if you all agree, if you all see the point, if you are all aware of this, loneliness, and running away from it, trying to cover it up, trying to fill it through various forms of entertainment, religious, football or this or that. So that's what we do. Now I'm asking myself: what has brought this loneliness about? Right?...

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    K: Watch it, please. Just a minute. Give me two minutes, will you? Afterwards jump on me. Such a mind is not isolated, is it? You understand, sir? Isolation takes place, which is loneliness takes place, when there are all the activities of ambition. When there are no activities of ambition there is no loneliness.

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    ...No, no. I have no fear yet. I'm coming to that. Mr Scott asked me, take one example, say, loneliness, and go into it. That's what we're doing, which is, I have done everything about it - run away, rationalised it, all the rest of it. And when I reject that, then I still say, 'What am I to do?' We're pointing out it is a wrong question because you...

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    ...Sorry, I must go on. Now, just a minute, sir, look. I am asking myself: I am lonely - ambition, greed, competition has brought about this loneliness, and I see the destructive nature of this loneliness; it prevents really affection, care, love and to me that is tremendously important. Loneliness is terrible, it is really destructive, it is...

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    ...Now sir. Sir, listen, sir. I say to you verbally and non-verbally that the activities of ambition, which I have explained, have produced this sense of desperate loneliness, the pain of it. You listen to that because you understand English, somewhat, and you listen to that. What takes place after you have listened to that? Is it an idea? You say,...

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    ...no order inwardly, and outwardly naturally, if there is no self-knowing. And we went into that the last time we met here. We were talking about loneliness, and I think it is important to understand the whole business of it. I think most of us realise that we are - when we dare face it - terribly lonely, isolated human beings. And if we are...

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    ...Yes, sir. Look, can I observe my loneliness. And hear all the noise, the emptiness, the silence, the inwardness of it - observing means also listening. Can I do that? It might tell me, it might tell its content, you follow? If I know how to look, if I know how to listen to the thing that I've called loneliness. It may be the most extraordinary...

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    One is related to another through attraction, sex, convenience, comfort, encouragement, escape from loneliness. So all these and other reasons make you attached to a person or to a thing. That is, you have a great longing, because you feel lonely, desperately depressed by yourself - right? - and you do not know how to solve that, so you accept...

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    ...myself. I don't know if you see all this. Right? So, this loneliness is a form of isolation which the mind has cultivated through ambition, through competition, through the desire for success, through the pursuit of pleasure, and this has brought about this sense of complete isolation, loneliness. Right? What do you...

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    K: I understand (laughs), I was only joking. And how is one to have, when one leaves here to have the strength to face all one's solitude, loneliness, all the travail of life. That is the question.

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    K: We are going to find out, sir, we are going to enquire now. Is the mind aware totally, or only partially? Aware of its unconscious activities, or is it aware only at the superficial level? Go on, sir, please.

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    ...what is one to do with 'what is'? And does the mind know what is actually going on? Is the mind aware when I make a gesture? Is the mind aware of its occupations - whatever they be: sexual, religious occupations, Jesus, Krishna, or whatever it is, its ambitions, corruptions, you know, is it aware of this? Are you aware of this? If you are not,...

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    ...mind to do with 'what is', how is it to go beyond 'what is'? Right? Am I - when I'm talking about 'I' it is quicker - is the mind aware of its neurotic behaviour, aware of its sexual demands, perverted or otherwise, its ambitions, its crude violence and subtle forms of violence? Is it aware of its gestures, words, drive, instincts? Is one aware of...

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    ...there is a tent over us, and it is very hot. I am aware of all the colours and the shape of the heads and so on and on. Is the mind aware, cognisant, know, conscious of what is going on within the sphere of the mind? Are you aware of your thoughts, of your feelings? Are you aware that you are fidgeting, scratching, yawning, pushing your hair back?...

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    So we are looking into the unconscious, we are asking what is this thing called consciousness? And when am I, when is the mind aware that it is conscious - you follow? When? When do you say, 'I am conscious'?

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    ...Go slowly, please sir, please. Please, don't jump into it. Go step by step. Who is aware of it? The mind? Who is aware of it? A part of the mind - please listen - a part of the mind aware of another part which is lonely? You see my question? I am lonely - I have suddenly become aware I am lonely. And who is aware of this loneliness? One part, a...

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    ...state of being awake. So I'm enquiring and I can only enquire by becoming very sensitive to what is happening in me, outside me. So is the mind aware during the day completely to what is happening inside, outside of me.

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    ...out whether it is actually capable of learning, and therefore free to observe. Right? That is, is your mind aware of all these problems - of control, discipline, authority and the constant response of reaction, the structure of it - are you aware of all this? Are you aware of all this in yourself as you live from day to day? Or you are only aware...

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    ...Yes, sir, but again that's a motive. Be careful. Sir, the point is this, if I may. You have told me, drop your prejudices. That the very putting aside your prejudice, your mind will be different. That you're telling me. And I listen to you. You follow, sir? Because I'm tremendously interested in the feeling that I might whether I can be free of...

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    ...Now do start now. Don't let's talk about the baby, but do start. Do start learning now. Please listen to this. Can the mind observe its activity without prejudice? Prejudice being judgement, evaluation which has already been made and through those eyes I look at myself. Can I observe the movement of myself in daily life, cooking, washing, all...