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So meditation is the emptying of the mind of the activity of the self. And you cannot empty the mind of the activity of the self by any practice, by any method, or by saying 'Tell me what to do'. Therefore if you are really interested in this, concerned, you have to find out for yourself your own activity of the self as the you - the habits, the...

K: Oh no. No, then activity may begin. Our activity is completely destructive when it is self-centred - obviously. Look what is happening, sir, all over the world.

To me it seems to be fairly clear that to observe there must be freedom, not only the outward phenomenon, but also to observe what is going on within ourselves, to observe without any prejudice, without taking any side, but to examine very closely, freely the whole process of our thinking and our activity, our pleasures, fears, and all the things that we have built around ourselves, not only outwardly but in ourselves as a form of resistance, compulsive demands, escapes, and so on.

...they the heathens, the communists and so on, and so on, so on. So the activity of the self is the 'me' as the observer, the activity of the self, the 'me', as the controller and the controlled, the activity of the self as will, the activity of the self demanding, desiring, experience. Right? As long as any of those activities exist, meditation...

Please bear in mind that we are thinking together, not merely listening to the speaker, but be concerned with our responsibility, with our activity of our minds and our hearts about all this.

K: That is all I have. Thinking, feeling, hating, loving - you know all that. The activity of the mind. I know that very well, you don't have to tell me.

...which has not been touched by thought. And can the mind see its activity because the observer is the observed, just to observe the activity, not try to change it, not to reform it, not to control it, just to observe it, and see what it discovers in the field of the known and be totally responsible for that. That means not to let the knowledge be...

...himself. He knows the hurts, he is aware of the isolating process of that hurt because he doesn't want to be hurt more, therefore there is resistance, there is isolation and from that isolation there is activity - logical, illogical, stupid and all the rest of it, and that activity strengthens him more and more in that hurt, that wall. Now we are...

Therefore meditation is not a controlled, directed activity, but it is an activity of no thought - I wonder if you realise all this. Then you will find out for yourself if there is, or if there is not, something which is not nameable, which is not within the field of time. And without finding that out, without coming upon it, without seeing the...

JK: That is the real point. We have often discussed this, whether there is anything beyond thought. Not something holy, sacred - I am not talking of that. I am talking: is there an activity which is not touched by thought? We are saying there is. And that activity is the highest form of intelligence.

...Yes, the blocks will disappear. Because if you look at them very carefully - is it fear? Fear of what? Go on, sir, investigate it with me - many of you may be feeling that. That is, if I lose my individuality, what am I? Except my profession, my career, my particular idiosyncrasy and so on, otherwise what am I? So I am afraid of being nothing, of...

Now let's come back. You are frightened. Let's talk a little bit about fear. We are going to talk four days together, I hope you don't mind. Four days we are going to talk to each other - the day after tomorrow and so on. Now what is fear? You tell me. You think out carefully and tell me what is fear.

So what is fear? Fear of something. Right? Is that fear merely a word? Do you understand? I'm sure you don't. I must go into it differently. One is afraid of something - has the word created the fear, or the fear exists separate from the word? Please, this is very important, to capture this. We are used to the implications of words, and the...

So as we were saying, fear exists only in relationship with some other thing, otherwise there is no fear. Related to the past, in memory of the past pain and not wanting that, the repetition of that pain tomorrow or today. Relation to something that has happened. And what is fear? You have had pain yesterday, that is obvious, you have had it. Or...

...evening's talk, if you will, you are going to ask questions, any kind of question you want. And since you are going to ask it, you have to observe, learn from yourself, through observing yourself, these two factors of human existence: fear and pleasure. What is fear and what is pleasure? Why has pleasure become so extraordinarily important? You...

Now, what is this fear? Why is one, you, I, or anybody, why is there this fear? Is it based on not being hurt, you know, not to be hurt? Or is it that one wants complete security and not being able to find it, physically, emotionally, psychologically, intellectually, not being able to find this sense of complete safety, security, protection, one...

When there is no fear whatsoever psychologically - whatsoever - what is the state of your mind? Please go, enquire together - what is the state of mind that is totally, completely free from all fear? Will it seek any will it have any desire to protect itself? Will it have any need or necessity to seek something to which it can pray, worship, or...

So being caught in fear and in pleasure, which produce sorrow, how can all this come to an end? You follow? How can all this movement of pleasure and fear, which is the product of thought, how can that machinery of thought naturally come to an end? Now that's your problem, isn't it. Right? Is that your problem? Now what will you do with it? Give...

...there is the past that is always operating. That's a fact. I see that. Then in seeing that I realise I am frightened. I don't know what will happen. So fear - I want to learn about fear - you follow? I am moving all the time in the movement of learning. I want to know about myself and I realise something, a profound truth, and also in learning...

...Now which is it what we are doing now - all of us. Are we making an abstraction of it, an idea of it; or yes, it is so, by Jove, I realise what I have done - I have separated myself from fear, and therefore I am acting upon it, which is, I see the falseness of it, and that fear is me. Is that a fact to me, or is it an idea to me? You follow, sir?...

Probably since the beginning of man human beings have had no peace at all. And there have been a great many organisations, including this organisation, to bring about peace in the world - pacem in terris. But there has been no peace. For various obvious reasons: nationalism, which is glorified tribalism, various opposing religions, divisions of...

...Sir, every religion has talked about it - right sir? Books have been written about it. Believe in god, you will have peace. Follow this path, you will have peace. Follow this guru, you will have peace. Follow this particular doctrine, and so on. Mankind has done all this, various form - be a Christian, be a - you know, all the rest of it - man has...

...you ever enquired into what is silence? What is silence? What is peace? Is peace between two wars? That's what's happening: what we call peace, it's between two wars. This war, like the next war, is to end all wars. Do you understand that? You have understood that phrase? This war, like the next war, is to end all wars. That is, is peace between...

We were talking about peace: why human beings who have lived on this earth for so many thousands and thousands of years have had no peace at all. There have been innumerable wars and probably there will be more wars. And why with all the technological knowledge we have acquired, and all the protestations of religions about peace, pacem in terris,...

Talking about peace, can there be peace in this world? Not in heaven, that's an old, old traditional disease. Can there be peace between human beings, whatever their colour, their race, their language, their so-called culture? And to find that peace, there must be peace between you and another, between you, your wife, your children. You...

...sorrow in the world. They are still doing it. How many women, men, wives, have cried about this. For thousands of years, and nobody stops it. They talk about peace on earth; they don't mean it. To have peace on earth one has live peacefully. And that peace cannot be brought about through legislation. Peace means a state of mind, brain, where there...

...in its entirety, they listen partially - agree in the sense, go together up to a certain distance, and stop there. If man really says I must have peace in the world, therefore I must live peacefully, then there is peace in the world. But he doesn't want to live in peace, he does everything opposite to that - his ambition, his arrogance, his silly...

...that life is a process of relationship. Why in our relationship with each other, however intimate, sexual, however very close, why there is conflict? Why two people cannot live peacefully? Have you ever asked that question? Why? Because this is very important. If I don't know how to live peacefully with my wife, with my husband, with my...

And if one may again point out without boring you, that this is not a lecture about religion or philosophy, or what is peace and so on. It's not how you should think or what you think but rather together, you and the speaker, enquire into this very complex question of what is religion and if it is possible not only to have peace in the world but...

So what is peace and how can we establish and lay the foundation so that we build on that - psychologically speaking? You understand sirs, we are talking over together. I am not pointing out. The speaker is not the authority but in talking over together things become very clear. If we can talk over together without any bias, without any prejudice,...

K: Sir, listen to this - what is action? Action means the doing, isn't it? Which is always in the present. Right? Right? The acting is always in the present. Now what is my action based on? On the past, isn't it? No? Please, discuss, isn't my action based on the past, on my memory, on my experience, on my idea of what I should do, on my...

...that because it is secure. And it functions, operates, moves in that field all the time. You come along and say, 'Look, that way of looking at life distorts action, that action which should be comprehensive, whole, becomes limited, therefore breeds conflict'. You point out all that to me. I listen to you. I listen, that means I pay attention, that...

Is there an action which is not born out of the movement of thought, out of certain ideologies which have been put together by thought, or by memories, which again is the response of thought - is there an action totally free from thought? Such action then will be complete, whole, total. You understand? Not fragmentary, not contradictory, it will...

What we are trying to find out is, what is action. You see action in the physical needs, and action based on various forms of opinions, judgements, conclusions, convictions, experiences, beliefs, dogmas, dependence and so on, so on - psychologically. And the speaker says he questions it, you understand?

...You only know that you are really confused when you have to act, then you have to choose. Right? And according to your action, what to do reveals your confusion. Right? But if the action is very satisfactory what will you do? You will say, 'it's all right, I am not confused'. I don't know if you see this? Do we see this, please, let's go together...

...or teacher or do something. That is so. But I realise that I am conditioned. My concern is what happens when I realise totally this state? I cease to act in that state, don't I, there is no action. I am a total prisoner. I don't rebel against it, because if I rebel I am rebelling against my own conditioning - right? - which has been put together...

The wastage of energy is the continuation of knowledge in action. We will go into that. Knowledge which has been gathered by the observer and the observer uses that knowledge in action, so action is different from knowledge, the division; and hence conflict between action and knowledge. And the entity that holds this knowledge which is essentially...

...So your motive is different from mine, and hers. So our action can never be together. Right? So is it possible, is there an action which is not separative? You follow, sir? Which is not yours, mine and his. So we ought to go into that word, or the whole meaning of that word 'action,' to do. That's the questioner who says, 'What am I to do? How am...

K: Action based on love is not fragmented. Is that an idea? Is that a theory? Is that 'what is'? So when you say, action based on love is not fragmented, you have already fragmented it.

So, we are asking: is there an action which does not have its roots in the past or conforming to a pattern established in the future? Leave it there. That's what we call action.

...also I would like to point out: I think we don't listen; we don't really try to find out what the other person is trying to say. And listening requires certain attention, care, affection. If I want to understand what you are saying I must listen to you, not block myself all the way, all the time. I must care for what you are saying, I must have...

K: That's it, sir. There is not even affection to understand something. If you and I had affection - if you had affection and I had affection for you, and I say, look, for god's sake, do look at this, and because you have affection for me, or love for me, and what I say becomes important to you.

...Do think about it a minute. We don't understand what relationship means. Because I come along and say, look, let us talk as two friends, which implies care, affection, love, consideration, involvement, commitment, and you sit there and say, 'You go on talking, but...' You would never say that to your wife or husband or girlfriend or boyfriend...

...Ah, not we have to love. That is not an action of will. If there is to be an understanding of 'what is', and 'what is ' may be violence, greed, brutality, cruelty or affection or joy - awareness implies great care in looking. When you have a baby don't you - the mother cares infinitely with affection, gets up at two, three or four o'clock in the...

K: ...you protect it with affection, taking it in your lap, cuddling him or her, and holding his hand, you make him feel that he is loved, that he is cared for. That gives him a feeling, here is somebody who is looking after me, and there is security here.

Krishnamurti: Yes. I think that is affection, that is love. When you talk to my waking consciousness, it is hard, clever, subtle, brittle. And you penetrate that, say, all right, keep your own beastly little stuff, and you penetrate it with your look, with your affection, with all that feeling you have. That operates, not anything else.

So we are saying, observe without direction, attachment, or aggression, or your violence. Observe it without any motive, direction, desire, just to observe it, and in that very observation there is an ending of it. And therefore you are inviting death while living. You follow? I wonder if you understand this? Not commit suicide, that's another...

...in our relationship when you are nothing? You understand? You know what it means to be nothing? No ambition, which doesn't mean you vegetate, no competition, no aggression, no resistance, no barriers built by hurt - you are absolutely nothing. Then what is it to be related to another? Have you ever thought about all this, or is it all so...

K: Oh, no. No, no, no, no, you have not understood what we have said. Both arise, love and aggression, they have no formulas. Really, that is not what we are talking about.

K: No, just sir. This is really for half an hour, do please put your minds to this, I beg of you. Are you different from your aggression? Obviously you are not. You are aggression, it is part of you.

THIRD QUESTION: How does one meet aggression and psychological attack from a close relative from whom one cannot escape? (Laughter)

...me, is that a form of vanity? It's like a man who is vain, as most of us are, and out of that vanity we try to be humble. Is that humility? A man who is full of aggression, violence, tries to be modest. You understand? It's absurd, it's lost its meaning. Whereas, a man who is aggressive realises, sees what aggression has done in this world and all...

K: Yes. Sir, I had an experience yesterday, pleasant or unpleasant, and I carry it over today, the brain carries it over today. Can that experience of yesterday, pleasurable or painful, end with yesterday? Otherwise it is a continuity of the past.

K: And also, sir, the question arises, can one actually experience something which is not experienceable? We use the word 'experience' so easily - 'realise', 'experience', 'attain', 'self-realisation', all these things - can one actually experience the feeling of supreme ecstasy? Let's take that for the moment, that word. Can one experience it?...

As you say, the infinite, can one experience the infinite? This is really quite a fundamental question, not only here but in life. We can experience something which we have already known. I experience meeting you. That's an experience, meeting you, or you meeting me, or my meeting X. And when I meet you next time I recognise you, don't I? I say,...

K: Opinions, beliefs, I have had an experience, it gives me tremendous satisfaction, I am going to hold on to it. I have had knowledge, you know, all that. How do you help me, such a person, to be free of all this? Your words, you explanations, your logic, everything says, quite right, but I can't move out of that.

...No, sir. That's why the difficulty. Wait, sir, let's finish this first. I am unhappy, miserable, sorrow - laden with it. And I want to experience something which has no sorrow because that is my craving. I want to have an ideal, a principle, or an end, which by struggling I ultimately get that. That's my craving. And I want to experience that and...

K: Let's enquire why. Not only identify with outward things, but also inwardly identify with my experience, identify with experience and say, this is my experience. Why do human beings go through this all the time?

K: Not experience. I doubt everybody's experience, including my own. But I am saying let's discuss that, not experience, then you are lost: my experience, your experience, but what is the relationship of the man who loves, in the sense we are talking about, and the man who hates? Just look at it sir. How can there be?

...No, sir. That's why the difficulty. Wait, sir, let's finish this first. I am unhappy, miserable, sorrow - laden with it. And I want to experience something which has no sorrow because that is my craving. I want to have an ideal, a principle, or an end, which by struggling I ultimately get that. That's my craving. And I want to experience that and...

So then there is the authority of another, and the dependence on another; there is the authority of tradition, there is the authority of the past as memory, as experience, as knowledge. And there is the authority of an experience which is the immediate. Are you following all this? You have had an experience, and that becomes the authority. And...

...Yes. Now what is involved in that? What is involved in the demand of our experience, and the experiencing of that demand? I experience what that guru or master, or somebody tells me, how do I know it is real? And I say, I recognise it, don't I, sir? Look, I experience something, and I can only know that I have experienced it only when I have...

So what will bring us together? Belief won't, authority of any kind is rejected, the reward by another as a means for you to change is also rejected. And if you say you are going to be punished in heaven for not obeying, you say 'Go away, don't be silly', and you pass him. So what will make us come together?

K: Who invented exams? (Laughter) The Chinese? The Mandarins? I believe they were the original people who kind of invented this monstrous system.

K: That's what I'm I am coming to that, madame. Look at it, sir. He is attracted to it, attracted to all that, and he won't listen to my talk. He kind of avoids me. Right? Don't you know all this, as parents? No?

K: Are you saying no? When are you then generous? When are you feeling affectionate, kind, generous, sympathetic? Or do you never feel it? Or only occasionally?

K: No, but that's not I'm saying, the source of fear of every kind that human beings have is born from thought. Will you listen to that statement, as you would listen when I say I really love you? Because it's too simple, your mind immediately says, 'No, that's too damn simple, it's not, it is much more complicated than that'.

JK: Yes, it is the activity of thought. Now if I consciously meditate, practise, do all this kind of what I call nonsense, then you are making the brain conform to another series of patterns.

...when given an opportunity it breaks through. Which is it? I've seen so many people in - I've lived a long time - from the age of fifteen I've seen this happen, with people of my own age - begin beautiful, you know, and gradually finish, destructive, cruel, brutal, self-centred, ugly, drunk.

Sir, we have the idea, a concept, a tradition that I am different from my anger. I am the atman and all that kind of stuff, I am different from everything, I am the watcher. Right? I am the controller. As that gentleman points out very clearly, that if I don't do anything now, that is, I won't be attached, I won't do anything about my attachment,...

I am anger, am I not? Anger is not something separate from me. I am greed, envy, anxiety. Right? I like to think that is something separate over which I have control. But the actual fact is I am all that - even the controller is me. Right? So there is no division between greed, anger, jealousy, and so on - that is me, that is the observer. Right?...

K: Sir, look at it in yourself. At the moment of jealousy, or of anger, or of envy, or of hate, whatever it be, happiness, at that second there is no division, is there?

...it. Before I am aware or anything, I say to myself, is it possible for me to watch - casually, I'm playing with it, I am having a game with myself. I am watching the movement of anger arising. I think that's fairly simple. Right? I think you've noticed all that, haven't you? No,...

K: You are anger at that moment. You are envy at that moment. And so there are many, many moments you are. Right? You are your anger, you are your name, you are your bank account, if unfortunately you have a bank account, you are your family you are your society, you are your god - you are, you invented all this. So, there is no 'you' separate...

K: Look, sir, can you watch, is there an observation of that feeling without naming it? The moment you say, anger, it is violence. Right?

K: Wait, careful, don't agree so quickly. You are not different from all that. Right? Are you different from anger? No, of course not. So you are anger. Right?

So the hurt is not different from me, the 'me' is the image, and that image gets hurt, so I am that image. Like anger is not different from me, I am anger. I might think I am different but in actuality I am anger. So do you see the truth of it - not the idea of it? the actual truth that when you are angry that anger is you.

K: Sir, no, not my relationship with truth. I am angry. Right? Suppose I am angry - there is anger, not I am angry - there is anger. Can I, is there an observation of that feeling, that reaction, without the whole movement of thought coming into it? That's all my question.

We are saying: what takes place when the observer is the observed which is anger? You can test this out for yourself. Don't accept a thing the speaker is saying, because if you accept, repeat, then you are second-hand human beings, which you are. So, please have the courtesy, the dignity, the intensity not to accept anything, psychologically. So,...

...lack of love, and to have no psychological fear at all. All this implies that one must stand alone. There is a difference between isolation and aloneness, between loneliness and being able to stand by yourself clearly, unconfused, uncontaminated.

K: So instead of going through all that business why don't you find out, let's find out what is thought, whether it can end, what is implied. You follow? Dig!

K: Isn't this what is happening in life? Don't say, it is not my business if you are a Communist. It is my business to see if we can live in security, in peace in the world, we are human beings, supposed to be intelligent. Why should I be committed to anything?

K: Why does one, I mean, if one is afraid, do you, does one want to go really deeply inside the whole business of it, and be free from it? Does one demand that? Or we don't know how to deal with fears and so we run away from it, avoid it and explain it away. Is that it, we never really want to go into it and completely dissolve it. Is that what is...

...Sir, I don't know what is happening to most of the people all the time. But I am saying as one human being we are so conditioned in the pattern of achievement, whether in business, in religion, in any way, we are conditioned to achieve. Now in becoming aware of this conditioning, then you will find in that awareness if you are choosing, if you are...

K: Could we start: why are we fragmented? Why do we look at life and all our actions and our business, whatever it is, always this fragment, business, religion, love, hate, you follow? It is all so broken up. Why do we do this?

So can you be free of this attachment so that there is a responsibility which is not a duty? Then what is love when there is no attachment? You understand my question? Look: if you are attached to a nationality, you worship isolation of nationality, which is a form of glorified tribalism, you are attached to it. What does that do? It breaks it up,...

So we have said if there is love there is no attachment; if there is attachment there is no love. So there has been the removal of the major factor in negation of what it is not, which is, love is not attachment. You know what it means in your daily life? No remembrance of anything, my wife, my girl-friend, or my neighbour told me, no remembrance...

...whole energy to find out whether it is possible to eradicate totally fear? Fear has many forms, one of the major factors of fear is attachment - attachment to a person, attachment to an ideal, to a belief, attachment to a piece of furniture - you know what attachment is. And where there is attachment there is inevitably the fear of losing. And is...

Now, I realise the fact that in that attachment there is really no security, because she might die, she might run away, she might look at somebody else, she is a free person, but I don't want her to be free, but I am attached. So can I look at that attachment, have an insight into that attachment, because insight is the liberating factor. Not...

So we have said desire, greed, attachment, is part of our life, daily struggling, conflict, occasionally happy, life. And now, let's examine together, and I mean together, what is fear, why we are so frightened. And this problem of fear has not been solved at all though we have lived a million years, we are still carrying on in the same old...

And there is a continuity in our life through attachment. Right? And to voluntarily say, 'I will end attachment' - have you ever done it? So we are asking, and you are asking too, do we voluntarily ever give up anything, not for a reward, for itself? And you don't see the beauty of ending something completely. So ending has great significance....

...superficial fears of a conscious mind, but also the hidden fears that lie deeply undiscovered. And dependency implies attachment: attachment to a belief, attachment to a tradition, attachment to a person, attachment to the position that gives you status. Now I wish you could see this clearly. In this country status has taken the place of...

So when there is freedom from attachment there is love. You understand? No you don't. That means responsibility, so that means order. So can you - realising one of the factors of confusion in our life, of our disorder and misery, is this attachment to ideas, to beliefs, to ideals, to one's country and so on, to wife, all that - can one be free of...

...end anything, we are always wanting to continue. When you end an attachment - please, we are not talking theoretically, or in abstraction, or theoretically, but actually, to end, say for instance your attachment to your guru, the attachment to some kind of belief, when you end it what takes place? You understand my question? Have you ever ended...

...it, not push it away or run away, just face it. And then see what happens when you face a relationship which actually is attachment - let's use that word for the moment to cover a whole field - face that attachment, without the interference of thought, without any motive, without any direction. Then see what takes place. We are not willing to do...

We think freedom is from something else. Right? To be free implies, generally as it is understood, I am free from my sorrow, from my anxiety, from my work - or whatever it is. Which is really a reaction, isn't it? Therefore it is not freedom at all. When a man says, 'I am free from smoking' - I hope you don't smoke, any of you, because it is very...

...repeat. You're second-hand human intellectuals. You may write very clever books, argue most brilliantly, but it's all second-hand. So intellectually you are slaves. There's no freedom. And thought can never be free because it is tied, has its roots in the past. So thought can never be new. So intellectually, which is the verbalisation of ideas and...

So is there a freedom which is totally unrelated, which is absolute - we are using the word 'absolute' in the sense absolved, free from any causation, from any motive. And is it possible for a brain, for a human mind, the immense struggle, the conflicts, the miseries, the loneliness, can there be a freedom from all this, so completely away from...

K: Ah! (Laughter) That's all I am saying. You are all so mad after money, which means freedom, which means pleasure, that's all you want. And you call that living.

...fear, not the various leaves of this tree of fear, but the total tree of fear? Right? How does one see the totality of fear? To see something totally or to listen to something completely, there must be freedom mustn't there? Freedom from prejudice, freedom from your conclusion, freedom from your wanting to be free of fear, freedom from the...

...and then come to a conclusion they are all more or less the same. I do not mean that. I do not mean by analysing either. But to observe that the acceptance of spiritual authority is destructive to freedom. And without freedom there is no observation. When you observe that way, in that moment of observation the whole nature of authority is...

...see, can the mind be free of the known? The freedom of the known is death. The known, your knowledge, your ambitions, your greeds, your envies, your professionalism, all that, the known. The freedom of the known is death. The freedom of the known is the 'me', the 'me' who has accumulated, identified, furniture, wife, family, country, job - you...

...first of all is it possible to be free of sorrow? Now, when we use the word 'freedom', it is not freedom from something. You understand? We always want to be free from something, free from every kind of irritation and so on. But we are talking of a freedom that is not from, or away from. Please understand this a little bit carefully because we are...

We were saying that freedom is not at all possible through any system, both outwardly and inwardly - freedom cannot be brought about through any political or economic system, either through communism or capitalism; no religion, organised, can ever bring about this freedom; nor following a particular little group, separate from others. We went into...

So first, meditation implies the freedom from measurement, that is, freedom from time. Is that possible? Because we are conditioned to think in terms of progress, of gradual achievement. We believe in psychological evolution. But is there such a thing as 'me' psychologically achieving something other than the projection of thought? You know, you...

...That's right, sir, that's right. What do we mean by danger? A car is coming towards you as you are crossing the road and you might die and all the rest of it, so you move away from it. Self-preservation - the instinct to preserve one's being, both physiologically as well as psychologically. Now is not conflict similar to that? Let's keep it very...

...Ah, you don't understand the word 'technology'. Technique - to do something, say for instance you want to build a car, and you must know all the parts, put them together, they must all work together. I have dismantled a car, put it all to pieces, and then put it all together hoping it will work. But it did work. Right? Learning about all the...

...the reaction. You see something in the window and you want it. What has taken place? The seeing of that dress, that trouser, that coat, that car, that woman, that man, or whatever it is - seeing, the sensation, the contact and say, 'I like that, that's exciting'. Which is, thought creates an image, you sitting in the car and driving. You follow?...

...that: which is, to understand desire, desire is sensation - I will go into it, I will explain it a little bit. There is seeing the tree, the woman, the man, the car, the politician who is right on the top, or the guru who says, 'I know'. So perception, seeing, then contact, touching, then out of that sensation. Right? Is this clear? Then what...

...I don't know. That is, there are events in one's life, happenings, that appear to be a chance, happens by chance. Events that occur in random, you know, not knowing, it happens. Is that happening new, totally unexpected, or is that happening the result of unexamined, hidden, unconscious events? Just a minute, just a minute. I happen to meet you,...

...do you listen to all this? That outward pressure is not going to change, inward giving yourself over to a presence, a reality, to god, to this, or to that, is still the desire which drives you to forget yourself, but the self is still there, only covered up. So do you listen to these statements. Right? Or it doesn't mean any thing at all? So...

K: Sir, do you mean to say the generals, the admirals, the politicians all over the world, are going to change by listening to you and me? Certainly not. What we are talking about is, if you are serious, if there is the real deep understanding that society must change, not according to any pattern, break away from the Judaism, the Christianity,...

5th QUESTION: After listening to you and thinking about these matters on my own, how am I to really not just solve my problems but radically bring about a change in my life?

So change implies non-movement of thought. This is - you see. Right? Because thought says, 'I want that'. I have had that had sufficient, 'I must have that'. And so it is constantly moving from this to this to this to this. And that is what we call change, generally. And we are saying no, that is not change at all. Change implies when thought has...

...am asking myself, can this violence in me end completely, never to come back again? Are you asking this question? Will you ask that question of yourself? Cause time is not going to change you. So what will end this violence instantly? What happens to a brain, to your brain when you see the logic of this: that time does not change you under any...

K: After an hour and a half, have you caught the truth that change is non-movement in any direction? Right, sir? Even intellectually grasp? That means, change implies absolute observing 'what is'. You understand? Observing one's greed, one's loneliness, despair, depression, watching it without any desire to change this or that, just watching. Sir,...

...form of control. All this, with all its misery, confusion, is the lot of all of us, the life of most people; probably it is yours. And we don't seem to be able to change either ourselves or outward circumstances. Perhaps it is much more difficult to change the economic structure and the political nature, but perhaps we could, if we apply our...

So what is it that brings about change? You are following all this? Somewhat at least. Thought obviously cannot. It can organise change. Organisation is put together by thought. It can plan change but the planning is limited. So when one realises, sees the fact, the truth that thought cannot possibly bring about a change, because thought itself is...

...not the Indian earth and the Muslim earth, it is our earth. And we have created a monstrous, immoral society. To bring about a change in that society, no outside agency, no system, no new Marxism, new ideas are going to change the society. You have to change. Right? And that change can only begin, that revolution, psychological revolution can only...

David Bohm: Well, I thought that perhaps we could go - we raised several questions after these discussions. One was the nature of this ground that we discussed, whether we could come to it and whether it has any interest in human beings. And also we discussed the possibility that there could be a change in the physical behaviour of the brain.

K: All right. So you are part of nature, you are saying. What is your relationship with your nature - all those flowers, all the hills, the trees, the mountain, the dry river - right? - what's your relationship to that?

K: Now wait a minute, Scott, do you question why you don't see the whole nature and structure of fear? Or do you say, I don't see, I only see part of it, not the whole of it. Do you question why you don't see it?

K: So where does that lead us? We were talking really about insight, that it actually changes the nature of the brain itself.

So can we go into it? This instrument and the nature. We have talked about 'what is' from the first time we met you, but what is the nature of this 'what is'?

Now what is the brain that says, I do not know, the nature of not knowing - you follow, sir? - the nature of not knowing, what is that? When there is a state of not knowing is there fear in it? Which is death. You follow, sir? When the old brain actually says, I don't know, it has relinquished all knowing. Right?

K: Which is, have you, who have understood or seen the truth that you are an individual and therefore no longer - are you still carrying the memories, the structure, the nature of your remembrance, your past, all that, in your mind? Yes, sir, this is a real question, don't...

K: I'm not asking, saying this personally. You're attached to somebody. And you see the whole business of attachment, what is involved, the whole structure, nature of it, the consequences of it. And you end it. Right?

...Exploiting. Obviously. That's nothing new - nature has been exploited by man for thousands of years. They are destroying the forests, they are polluting the rivers, they are polluting the air, they are killing animals for pleasure, for food. This has been going on for millions of years. And so when one asks, what's your relationship with nature,...

...life, which is relationship, must inevitably be a series of incidents and conflicts. That's clear. So we are asking: can this centre be understood, watched, see the nature of it, the structure of it, and end it - not verbally, but actually end it? Right? That is our question. Therefore one must observe freely the nature and the structure of the...

So one has to understand very, very deeply the nature and the structure of thought. If you have not understood it you can't meditate. You can fiddle around with it.

...Rien n'est completement. Look sir, when you listen to music, there is the beauty of it, the romanticism of it, the remembrance of it, hearing it in different places, and the association that it evokes, that music, with whom you heard it, how you talked about it, what the critics said about it and so on. So when your mind is occupied then the space...

K: Go and listen to music. The moment that music stops you are back to your images. This is all so childish! Take drugs, that also creates various images.

...bear in mind we are going to make it much more orderly, strict and not make it into another resort for amusement, please. Though it has been announced several times, that music that goes on, what is called music - Bong(?) is it? - thumping on the drums and so on went on until half past ten last night. So please be courteous, careful of others and...

K: No, no, sir. Is courage the opposite of fear? That is, if fear is non-existent is it courage? Or it is something totally different?

K: Thought, quite right. But sir, to go so profoundly it requires tremendous, not only courage, but the sense of constant pursuing the same stream.

I am not, the speaker has never been pessimistic or optimistic, he is just showing something to you: that the computers can take over all that man has done - almost, except the computers can't look at the beautiful tree, or the evening star, single, alone in the sky, or the morning light on the waters. When a machine can take over all that you are...

...course not. Sir, when you hold a hand of another, you can hold it out of habit or of custom. Or you can hold it and communication can take place without a word, because both are at the given moment intense, communication has taken place, without a word. But we are not intense, passionate,...

Listen not only verbally, and the meaning of the word, but also non-verbally - for communication is verbal and non-verbal, and since we are speaking in English, the words have definite meaning and if you don't understand the meaning of the word actually but interpret that word according to your particular conditioning then you will not be listening to what is being said.

...were talking yesterday evening? Communication with each other, to commune, to communicate something to another, unless they are really willing to listen, however friendly, however good-intentioned, unless one is able to listen to another, communication becomes rather limited, misunderstood, and apt to be misguiding. So we are going to talk over...

K: I understand that, sir. But I want to find (laughs), not a drug, not a medicine, not a way, but there must be a communication between you and me who is the ordinary man, a communication so that the communication is so strong that very my act of listening to you and you communicating with me operates.

...all these questions of yourself. If you have - I am not suggesting that you should, or that you must, but as two friends talking over together, each points out to the other, asks questions of each other, doubts what the other fellow is saying, so there is interaction between the two, there is a communication. And communication implies not only a...

...No. I'm just using that. Sir, first see, I'm talking about the word 'communication', not conditioning. We'll come to that. I don't know if I understand it rightly , I am talking - we are talking about that word, 'communication', which means, as I said, to build together. Here, communication means building together, understanding together, working...

May we stop now? It is an hour and a quarter we have talked. You haven't talked but K has talked. But we have had a communication with each other, because we have established the basis of a communication in which there is no superior and the inferior, one who knows and one who does not know. May we get up? Apres vous: After you! (laughter)

...in English we have to understand the meaning of words, how they are used. And in this communication, that is, in listening to what is going to be said, either we share in what is being said or merely translate what is being said into ideas, into abstractions. Either we share together what is being said and not translate it into an ideology, into...

...with the psyche, the mind, and from there moving outwards. I don't know if we are communicating with each other. Communication means, as we said the other day, learning together, sharing together, observing together, creating together. That is, really, that means communication. So we must, you and I, must both move together step by step, and not...

...we go into that this morning? Can we freely enquire together into this question? Because communication and relationship always go together. If there is no communication there is no relationship, not only between you and the speaker but also between each other. If we merely remain at the verbal level, at the formal level, that communication is very...

K: Wait, wait, wait, wait. Patience, patience. The gentleman says, if I have understood him rightly, to bring about this order should we give first place to god. That's right, sir? That's a question isn't it?

So, the next question, which is much more difficult to answer - you have to have patience so far. Patience means - please understand, patience - I am using the word 'patient' in a particular sense. Patience means the absence of time. You understand? Generally patience means go slow, be patient, take time, don't react quickly, be quiet, take it...

...Nobody has said that to me, here or in India or anywhere else. Perhaps one or two have. But I'm asking you, out of politeness, kindness, etc., respect, what do you pay for something which is unpayable.

...of a guru is fear. Right? The respect that you have for your bosses, for your politicians, for your gurus, for your so-called higher authorities, that respect which is never shown to those below you, politically, religiously, morally, ethically, in business, is really a cowardice. Are you accepting all this? The word 'respect' means to look back....

K: What is real friendship, if in that there is no trust or respect. If there is no trust or respect, what is the meaning of real friendship? I don't know. (Laughter) If you haven't got respect and affection how can you have friendship? I don't quite understand the meaning of this question.

...give you comfort, which will psychologically make you feel secure. That you love, which is what you want, you love. Right? Be ruthless in this. So devotion is not love, which is different from respect. You understand? Devotion is totally different from respect. That is, to respect another, care for another, consideration for another. But you only...

Is religion all the things that thought has put together? The rituals, the robes, the gurus, the perpetual repetition, prayers and the whole thing, is that religion? Or is it a big business concern? There is a temple in South India that makes a million dollars every third day. You understand what I am saying? Every third day that temple gathers...

...business of living, we are not educated to look and see what happens if we face death. So I was wondering as we came along this morning, religion, which we were going to discuss anyhow, has become merely not only a divisive process but also utterly meaningless. Maybe 2,000 years as Christianity, or 3,000, 5,000 as Hinduism, Buddhism and so on, it...

K: Gathering together all energy to be attentive; to be attentive, otherwise it's not religion. Religion is all the things - we'll discuss that when we come to it. So freedom means the sense of complete austerity and a sense of total negation of the observer.

...if you have ever looked at the word 'reviving'. You can only revive something that's dead or dying. Nothing living, you can't revive a living thing. And in this country they are reviving religion. And also they are doing the same thing in different parts of the world. And there is division between nationalities, religion, economic, and so...

...at your japam and your repetitions of whatever you repeat. You don't say, 'Why am I doing this? What is the reason, what lies behind all this?' You follow tradition and therefore you think that's religion. You know, in India somebody calculated three hundred thousand gods. It is perhaps better than having one god. You can choose anything you like....

As I said, we were going to talk this morning about religion, meditation, and to come upon something, if it is possible, which is not measurable, which is totally a different dimension. We talked somewhat about religion. Now we are going to find out what it means to meditate. I don't know what it means to you. If you had never heard that word, if...

And why has man always talked about religion? From the ancient Egyptians and before them, religion has played an extraordinary part in life - why? Is it that we are seeking happiness, peace, an end which will not be destructive, secure, peaceful, and demanding that and not finding it in life, not finding all that in our daily life, we project....

K: Scrap books and conditions, sir, let's talk together freely. So I say to myself, Why? Is this the result of all this? Environment, culture, education, religion, the economic social structure which makes me consider myself first, my view, my union...

...so you see what meditation is. What relation has meditation with that which we have called religion? We said religion is not under any circumstances the worship of another. The worship of a saviour, the image, the belief, the dogma, the priests, all that is not religion. Any intellectual human being accepts that logically, but at the moment of...

K: Right. That we say, that is our life. Then what do you mean by religion, a religious life? You tell me. What is religion to you?

And therefore that love is not love because it contains jealousy, all the activities of thought which has created the individuality. I wonder - come on sirs!

K: Now, if I see clearly that love is independent of hate, hate cannot possibly act on love, love may act on hate, or where hate is, the other cannot be.

K: That's just it. It must be there - now wait a minute; love is not yours or mine, it is not personal, it is not something that belongs to a person, and doesn't belong to the other; love is that.

Look, if I say, I love you, and I say to myself, why do I love you? What have I done? I don't love you, do I? You understand, sir? When I say, why do I love you, I have brought in an intellectual process which says there must be a cause. And where there is a cause there is no love, is there? What's the matter with you? So when I put the question,...

So, there must be this peculiar thing called love, stripped of all the human poison out of it - jealousy, domination, anger, brutality; how you treat a dog, how you educate your children, how you dominate your wife or your daughter that they must be married, you know, you know all the rest of it. To die to all that so that your eyes have never...

All that we know of love is a contradiction, a contradiction with jealousy, hate, antagonism, and the thing we call love. If one would know or understand this thing called love. Not verbally, not the sensual pleasure called love, not the love that goes with hate, envy, ambition. An ambitious man can never know what love is, obviously. Like an...

...You understand my question? There is, and there must be a cause for all this, or causes. How do you approach the problem? How do you regard the problem, or how do you receive the problem that there is no love in this country? The love of a tree, love of a rock, love of a man, love of a woman, it doesn't exist. When you ask why it doesn't exist,...

So can a man who is envious, who is greedy, ambitious, violent, conforming, obeying, totally in himself in disorder, can he love? So what is love? It is not any of these things, obviously. It is not pleasure. Please understand the importance of the pleasure; pleasure is sustained by thought, therefore thought is not love. You understand? Thought...

...you are following? And when that security is threatened, as it is all the time being threatened, then I become violent, vicious, all the rest of it follows. So one asks: is love dependency? Please we are learning together, not saying yes or no. And is love pleasure? Pleasure is the response of memory and the pursuit of that memory in daily life....

K: Yes, is love part of thought? Which means does love contain the whole movement and the complexity of thought? You understand? If it contains thought, is that love? You don't even go into it, look at it.

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