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...be free to observe, free to listen. And that, I am afraid, is one of the most difficult things to do, to listen. Because we are going together during these talks, and discussions, to investigate into the actuality of our daily life. We are not going to discuss theories because they are utterly meaningless, nor speculative ideas, which are equally...

...Yes. That's right. Whatever you have done on earth - in quotes - has no meaning, the ground says. Is that an idea or an actuality? You understand? Idea being that you have told me but I still go on, struggling, wanting, groping, searching. But it is an actuality, in the sense that I suddenly realise the futility of all that I have done....

Either he is incapable of seeing the facts, or he likes to live in an illusion, in a make-belief which has nothing whatsoever to do with actuality: the actuality being what is taking place now. Or he separates the experience, the idea, the ideal, the belief as being not accurate but holds on to them because intellectually he is incapable of...

So the future is now. In the now all time is contained. This is a fact too, actuality, not a theory. What you are is the result of the past and what you will be tomorrow is what you are now. If I am violent now tomorrow I'll be violent.

K: I am coming to that. What value is that to you? Either you accept it, or you say, don't be silly, and walk away, as it is not possible, and you leave it. But if you want to enquire and say, look, is it possible, let's find out - not as an idea but as an actuality in daily life. Right? Somebody join us!

Please understand this - not intellectually or ideologically or a hypothesis, but it is an actuality, burning reality, that you psychologically are the rest of mankind. Therefore psychologically you are not individuals. Though religions, except perhaps parts of Hinduism and Buddhism, have entertained, encouraged the sense of individual growth,...

So let's proceed. Do we see, not as an idea, but as an actuality, that there is no psychological security? Or are you frightened of it? Frightened of this enormous fact?

K: The gentleman says, I don't know. Is that a mere verbal statement, or an actuality? When you say, 'I don't know', you are expecting an answer from the speaker? Or you say, 'I really don't know what to do'. That means you are shedding blood - you understand, sir? - and tears, not just say, 'Well, I don't know'.

K: That's a rationalisation, logic and all the rest of it, but isn't an actuality. So how are you going to make me understand and see the actuality of it? You can't do it, unless you can't do it. You can't hit me on the head.

K: I never said - those are biological demands, but psychologically - anger, envy, jealousy, hate, attachment - can't you end all that? Of course, one can. Then do it! Talk to your wife or your husband, to your neighbour, gently, quietly, with affection, with care. Sir, you make me cry! You don't listen to all this.

K: Sir, look at it in yourself. At the moment of jealousy, or of anger, or of envy, or of hate, whatever it be, happiness, at that second there is no division, is there?

K: How do I know that anger is a fact and the opinion about anger is a conclusion. Right? Don't you know? The opinion, the judgement about anger is a conclusion. And the fact I'm angry is a fact. For the love of god.

...what happens when you when the observer is the observed. You understand? When the anger is me, then what takes place? Have you enquired into this or you just say, 'Yes, I am the observer, the observed'? Meaningless. But to find out or experience, go into it and find out if anger is always different from you. That has been the tradition, that has...

So the hurt is not different from me, the 'me' is the image, and that image gets hurt, so I am that image. Like anger is not different from me, I am anger. I might think I am different but in actuality I am anger. So do you see the truth of it - not the idea of it? the actual truth that when you are angry that anger is you.

K: You are anger at that moment. You are envy at that moment. And so there are many, many moments you are. Right? You are your anger, you are your name, you are your bank account, if unfortunately you have a bank account, you are your family you are your society, you are your god - you are, you invented all this. So, there is no 'you' separate...

We are saying: what takes place when the observer is the observed which is anger? You can test this out for yourself. Don't accept a thing the speaker is saying, because if you accept, repeat, then you are second-hand human beings, which you are. So, please have the courtesy, the dignity, the intensity not to accept anything, psychologically. So,...

K: Sir, no, not my relationship with truth. I am angry. Right? Suppose I am angry - there is anger, not I am angry - there is anger. Can I, is there an observation of that feeling, that reaction, without the whole movement of thought coming into it? That's all my question.

...it. Before I am aware or anything, I say to myself, is it possible for me to watch - casually, I'm playing with it, I am having a game with myself. I am watching the movement of anger arising. I think that's fairly simple. Right? I think you've noticed all that, haven't you? No,...

K: Look, sir, can you watch, is there an observation of that feeling without naming it? The moment you say, anger, it is violence. Right?

...lack of love, and to have no psychological fear at all. All this implies that one must stand alone. There is a difference between isolation and aloneness, between loneliness and being able to stand by yourself clearly, unconfused, uncontaminated.

...Sir, I don't know what is happening to most of the people all the time. But I am saying as one human being we are so conditioned in the pattern of achievement, whether in business, in religion, in any way, we are conditioned to achieve. Now in becoming aware of this conditioning, then you will find in that awareness if you are choosing, if you are...

K: Why does one, I mean, if one is afraid, do you, does one want to go really deeply inside the whole business of it, and be free from it? Does one demand that? Or we don't know how to deal with fears and so we run away from it, avoid it and explain it away. Is that it, we never really want to go into it and completely dissolve it. Is that what is...

K: Isn't this what is happening in life? Don't say, it is not my business if you are a Communist. It is my business to see if we can live in security, in peace in the world, we are human beings, supposed to be intelligent. Why should I be committed to anything?

K: So instead of going through all that business why don't you find out, let's find out what is thought, whether it can end, what is implied. You follow? Dig!

K: Could we start: why are we fragmented? Why do we look at life and all our actions and our business, whatever it is, always this fragment, business, religion, love, hate, you follow? It is all so broken up. Why do we do this?

...it, not push it away or run away, just face it. And then see what happens when you face a relationship which actually is attachment - let's use that word for the moment to cover a whole field - face that attachment, without the interference of thought, without any motive, without any direction. Then see what takes place. We are not willing to do...

...and that pain may come back and be afraid of it - that is, physically. The same thing psychologically. I am attached to you and that attachment I consider love, which is nonsense, it is not love; where there is attachment, there is no love. Obviously. We won't go into that for the moment. So I am attached and I am afraid if I let go my attachment...

So can you be free of this attachment so that there is a responsibility which is not a duty? Then what is love when there is no attachment? You understand my question? Look: if you are attached to a nationality, you worship isolation of nationality, which is a form of glorified tribalism, you are attached to it. What does that do? It breaks it up,...

And we were saying one of the factors, among others, is this attachment - why human beings are so attached to a belief, to an ideal, to an image of themselves, to some concept, to the verbal structure. And when one is attached, in that attachment, however deep, however momentary, however pleasant, in that possessiveness, which is attachment, there...

...Hold on to them, or let them go? Or if you find yourself attached to somebody, to some ideals, to some belief, if you are at all aware and familiar with your attachment, how far one has let them go, knowing all attachment leads to a great deal of sorrow, and pain, and all the rest of it, which we went into.

...superficial fears of a conscious mind, but also the hidden fears that lie deeply undiscovered. And dependency implies attachment: attachment to a belief, attachment to a tradition, attachment to a person, attachment to the position that gives you status. Now I wish you could see this clearly. In this country status has taken the place of...

...whole energy to find out whether it is possible to eradicate totally fear? Fear has many forms, one of the major factors of fear is attachment - attachment to a person, attachment to an ideal, to a belief, attachment to a piece of furniture - you know what attachment is. And where there is attachment there is inevitably the fear of losing. And is...

...because if you continue with all your memories, you know, that's it leads nowhere, it leads to what is called death. But if you see the truth of this continuity, then will you ask the question: how is one to end attachment? Take one simple thing, like attachment, how is one to end attachment? You understand my question? How to end attachment...

So attachment with its pain and pleasure, to be obsessed and to obsess, is part of this attachment, and to be free of that attachment totally, because that is freedom in reality and therefore order in that reality and therefore no friction between human beings. I wonder if you see this. Do you see this, please? Not up here, but with your heart,...

...end anything, we are always wanting to continue. When you end an attachment - please, we are not talking theoretically, or in abstraction, or theoretically, but actually, to end, say for instance your attachment to your guru, the attachment to some kind of belief, when you end it what takes place? You understand my question? Have you ever ended...

...We are seeing now, madame, we are making the picture clear, for goodness sake, look at it. So does freedom mean doing what you like, does freedom mean choice, does freedom mean expressing, fulfilling yourself? Right? Doing what you want to do: I want to fulfil - what is 'you' to fulfil? You are the conditioned entity and you want to fulfil...

K: We are going to find out, but that requires a great deal of enquiry and freedom, otherwise you cannot find out. One has to put aside all that which is false. Right? How can one find anything new if we are attached to old traditions which are dead, to some belief that we hold dear, to some ideal we think is necessary - if we hold on to all those...

We think freedom is from something else. Right? To be free implies, generally as it is understood, I am free from my sorrow, from my anxiety, from my work - or whatever it is. Which is really a reaction, isn't it? Therefore it is not freedom at all. When a man says, 'I am free from smoking' - I hope you don't smoke, any of you, because it is very...

...No, sir, look. Man historically, politically, even religiously said, 'I must be free.' Right? There must be freedom in life. There must be, as they put it 'individual', who is not controlled, shaped, driven. Man has always sought freedom, from the most primitive till now. So many are rejecting the churches, and all the rest of it. Freedom means to...

As I said, freedom from something, like freedom from anger, freedom from jealousy, freedom from aggression, is an abstraction and therefore not real. A man who says to himself 'I must be free from anger or from jealousy' is not free; but the man who says 'I must observe the fact of anger, actually what it is and learn the whole structure of anger,...

...see, can the mind be free of the known? The freedom of the known is death. The known, your knowledge, your ambitions, your greeds, your envies, your professionalism, all that, the known. The freedom of the known is death. The freedom of the known is the 'me', the 'me' who has accumulated, identified, furniture, wife, family, country, job - you...

We were saying that freedom is not at all possible through any system, both outwardly and inwardly - freedom cannot be brought about through any political or economic system, either through communism or capitalism; no religion, organised, can ever bring about this freedom; nor following a particular little group, separate from others. We went into...

...Therefore it is not the opposite. Goodness is never the opposite of bad. So what are we talking about when we say, 'I will move, change, from my conditioning, which is bad, to freedom from conditioning, which is good'? Therefore freedom is the opposite of my conditioning. Therefore it is not freedom at all! That freedom is born out of my...

...No, don't say no. Learn. So freedom is not in the field of reality because freedom implies freedom from conflict. But if there is freedom from conflict such a mind will know how to live in reality. I wonder if you see that. If I have understood, if my brain has completely grasped the full significance of living a life without conflict, which means...

So how is one to learn what freedom is? Not freedom from oppression - you understand? - freedom from fear, freedom from all the little things which we worry about, but freedom from the very cause of fear, from the very cause of our antagonisms, from the very root of our being in which there is this appalling contradiction, this frightening pursuit...

...Ah, you don't understand the word 'technology'. Technique - to do something, say for instance you want to build a car, and you must know all the parts, put them together, they must all work together. I have dismantled a car, put it all to pieces, and then put it all together hoping it will work. But it did work. Right? Learning about all the...

...that: which is, to understand desire, desire is sensation - I will go into it, I will explain it a little bit. There is seeing the tree, the woman, the man, the car, the politician who is right on the top, or the guru who says, 'I know'. So perception, seeing, then contact, touching, then out of that sensation. Right? Is this clear? Then what...

...the reaction. You see something in the window and you want it. What has taken place? The seeing of that dress, that trouser, that coat, that car, that woman, that man, or whatever it is - seeing, the sensation, the contact and say, 'I like that, that's exciting'. Which is, thought creates an image, you sitting in the car and driving. You follow?...

...That's right, sir, that's right. What do we mean by danger? A car is coming towards you as you are crossing the road and you might die and all the rest of it, so you move away from it. Self-preservation - the instinct to preserve one's being, both physiologically as well as psychologically. Now is not conflict similar to that? Let's keep it very...

...I don't know. That is, there are events in one's life, happenings, that appear to be a chance, happens by chance. Events that occur in random, you know, not knowing, it happens. Is that happening new, totally unexpected, or is that happening the result of unexamined, hidden, unconscious events? Just a minute, just a minute. I happen to meet you,...

So some of you have listened for many years and do we listen and therefore bring about a change, or you have got used to the words and just carry on? So we are asking: what will make man, a human being who has lived for so many million years, carrying on the same old pattern, inherited the same instincts, self preservation, fear, security, sense...

K: After an hour and a half, have you caught the truth that change is non-movement in any direction? Right, sir? Even intellectually grasp? That means, change implies absolute observing 'what is'. You understand? Observing one's greed, one's loneliness, despair, depression, watching it without any desire to change this or that, just watching. Sir,...

...of what has been, what is dead and put into different words and different circumstances. So it becomes very important, it seems to me, not only that we must bring about a change in the world outside us, but also a total revolution psychologically, inwardly. That seems to me the most urgent and necessary thing. That change will bring about...

And we are asking: I am this, my consciousness is this: fear, sorrow, pain, pleasure and all the varieties of fear, all the nationalistic, tribalistic responses, prejudices - black, white, purple, pink and all the rest of it, we are all that - subtle, violent, cruel, bitter, cynical, and we are always trying to change that into something else, like violence, trying to change violence into non-violence, which is to become.

So we are concerned, if you are at all serious, whether your mind, which is so destructive, so corrupt, a mind that has created a world that is insane, a world that has become monstrous, where human beings, quiet, gentle, really affectionate human beings cannot possibly live, and to bring about a change in that, there must be a change in the inner world, and nobody wants to do that.

But the question is: what is the root of thought, and whether thought can bring about a change? Please understand, this is the question. What is the factor that ends this, the continuity, change, and what actually brings change? Can thought bring change? You understand? That which is limited thinks it can change. And therefore when it tries to...

...various influences, desires, purposes, and if that isn't suitable, one is driven in another direction. And this constant movement from one degree to another degree is called progress, change, and all kinds of things - acquiring knowledge, moving. Right? So we are asking if that is change at all. We are discussing change in the sense, deep...

So we are saying, if one looks to time, that is tomorrow, to bring about a change then it is futile hope - right? That's clear. Therefore you have to enquire: what is change? Is change in terms of the future? Is change something from that which is to something else? Please go into it, don't... I am this, I will be that. I will be that means...

5th QUESTION: After listening to you and thinking about these matters on my own, how am I to really not just solve my problems but radically bring about a change in my life?

...Go slowly, sir, think it out carefully. If one has an idea, a concept, a conclusion, an end to which you conform, to which you change to, or from this to that, is that change? Or is it a continuation of the same thing but modified. You have understood my question? One may project what one should be. The projection of that is from one's own desire,...

K: Suffering, yes. So are we saying that it is natural in nature and in human beings to suffer, to go through agonies, to live in disorder?

K: All right. So you are part of nature, you are saying. What is your relationship with your nature - all those flowers, all the hills, the trees, the mountain, the dry river - right? - what's your relationship to that?

And we are going to talk about together the nature of what we consider love. This has been a question that has existed among the ancient Egyptians, the ancient Hindus, and recently the Christian world and the Islamic concept; they have all preached, talked about loving your neighbour, and so on. This has been asserted, religiously, in all the...

...together is actual. The guns, the submarines, going to the moon, and so on and so on are all actual realities. But that reality is created by thought - right? Thought has not created nature. So nature is actual, real but it is not the product of thought. But thought can use the nature, making a chair, which becomes a reality....

So one has to understand very, very deeply the nature and the structure of thought. If you have not understood it you can't meditate. You can fiddle around with it.

...Exploiting. Obviously. That's nothing new - nature has been exploited by man for thousands of years. They are destroying the forests, they are polluting the rivers, they are polluting the air, they are killing animals for pleasure, for food. This has been going on for millions of years. And so when one asks, what's your relationship with nature,...

K: Explaining, rather. So if one listens in the same way, without the 'me' to the nature of the individual, the nature of his activities and his organisations, then there is no problem, you have got it, because you are listening entirely without the centre.

K: I'm not asking, saying this personally. You're attached to somebody. And you see the whole business of attachment, what is involved, the whole structure, nature of it, the consequences of it. And you end it. Right?

K: Which is, have you, who have understood or seen the truth that you are an individual and therefore no longer - are you still carrying the memories, the structure, the nature of your remembrance, your past, all that, in your mind? Yes, sir, this is a real question, don't...

K: Now here, I have explained for an hour and a quarter, in discussion, the nature and the structure of thought. Right? And when you watch the nature and the structure of thought, see where it is important, where it is not important, see the truth of that - you follow? - the truth of its operation and its non-operation, then there is a different...

...Rien n'est completement. Look sir, when you listen to music, there is the beauty of it, the romanticism of it, the remembrance of it, hearing it in different places, and the association that it evokes, that music, with whom you heard it, how you talked about it, what the critics said about it and so on. So when your mind is occupied then the space...

K: Go and listen to music. The moment that music stops you are back to your images. This is all so childish! Take drugs, that also creates various images.

...bear in mind we are going to make it much more orderly, strict and not make it into another resort for amusement, please. Though it has been announced several times, that music that goes on, what is called music - Bong(?) is it? - thumping on the drums and so on went on until half past ten last night. So please be courteous, careful of others and...

K: No, no, sir. Is courage the opposite of fear? That is, if fear is non-existent is it courage? Or it is something totally different?

K: Thought, quite right. But sir, to go so profoundly it requires tremendous, not only courage, but the sense of constant pursuing the same stream.

I am not, the speaker has never been pessimistic or optimistic, he is just showing something to you: that the computers can take over all that man has done - almost, except the computers can't look at the beautiful tree, or the evening star, single, alone in the sky, or the morning light on the waters. When a machine can take over all that you are...

Listen not only verbally, and the meaning of the word, but also non-verbally - for communication is verbal and non-verbal, and since we are speaking in English, the words have definite meaning and if you don't understand the meaning of the word actually but interpret that word according to your particular conditioning then you will not be listening to what is being said.

...No. I'm just using that. Sir, first see, I'm talking about the word 'communication', not conditioning. We'll come to that. I don't know if I understand it rightly , I am talking - we are talking about that word, 'communication', which means, as I said, to build together. Here, communication means building together, understanding together, working...

K: I understand that, sir. But I want to find (laughs), not a drug, not a medicine, not a way, but there must be a communication between you and me who is the ordinary man, a communication so that the communication is so strong that very my act of listening to you and you communicating with me operates.

...course not. Sir, when you hold a hand of another, you can hold it out of habit or of custom. Or you can hold it and communication can take place without a word, because both are at the given moment intense, communication has taken place, without a word. But we are not intense, passionate,...

...were talking yesterday evening? Communication with each other, to commune, to communicate something to another, unless they are really willing to listen, however friendly, however good-intentioned, unless one is able to listen to another, communication becomes rather limited, misunderstood, and apt to be misguiding. So we are going to talk over...

...in English we have to understand the meaning of words, how they are used. And in this communication, that is, in listening to what is going to be said, either we share in what is being said or merely translate what is being said into ideas, into abstractions. Either we share together what is being said and not translate it into an ideology, into...

...all these questions of yourself. If you have - I am not suggesting that you should, or that you must, but as two friends talking over together, each points out to the other, asks questions of each other, doubts what the other fellow is saying, so there is interaction between the two, there is a communication. And communication implies not only a...

K: (Repeating) Could we go into communication and attention. All right, sir, let's talk about communication and attention. Any other thing?

You know that word, 'communication' is very important to understand. Communication means building together, creating together. The word itself means that. And here we are trying to communicate, the speaker is trying to communicate with you, who are the listener, which means the listener and the speaker are creating together. Therefore, you're not...

...we go into that this morning? Can we freely enquire together into this question? Because communication and relationship always go together. If there is no communication there is no relationship, not only between you and the speaker but also between each other. If we merely remain at the verbal level, at the formal level, that communication is very...

So, the next question, which is much more difficult to answer - you have to have patience so far. Patience means - please understand, patience - I am using the word 'patient' in a particular sense. Patience means the absence of time. You understand? Generally patience means go slow, be patient, take time, don't react quickly, be quiet, take it...

K: Wait, wait, wait, wait. Patience, patience. The gentleman says, if I have understood him rightly, to bring about this order should we give first place to god. That's right, sir? That's a question isn't it?

K: What is real friendship, if in that there is no trust or respect. If there is no trust or respect, what is the meaning of real friendship? I don't know. (Laughter) If you haven't got respect and affection how can you have friendship? I don't quite understand the meaning of this question.

...Nobody has said that to me, here or in India or anywhere else. Perhaps one or two have. But I'm asking you, out of politeness, kindness, etc., respect, what do you pay for something which is unpayable.

...give you comfort, which will psychologically make you feel secure. That you love, which is what you want, you love. Right? Be ruthless in this. So devotion is not love, which is different from respect. You understand? Devotion is totally different from respect. That is, to respect another, care for another, consideration for another. But you only...

...of a guru is fear. Right? The respect that you have for your bosses, for your politicians, for your gurus, for your so-called higher authorities, that respect which is never shown to those below you, politically, religiously, morally, ethically, in business, is really a cowardice. Are you accepting all this? The word 'respect' means to look back....

...Yes, sir. You know, a word like religion, love, or god, has almost lost all its meaning. They have abused these words so enormously, and religion has become a vast superstition, a great propaganda, incredible beliefs and superstitions, worship of images made by the hand or by the mind. So when we talk about religion I would like, if I may, to be...

And to bring about a unity of all other human beings, it is only religion can do this, bring us all together. Not politics, not science, not some new philosophy or some expansive economy, or various organisations, political, religious, none of them are going to bring us together as a whole. I think this one has to realise very deeply, that no...

K: Gathering together all energy to be attentive; to be attentive, otherwise it's not religion. Religion is all the things - we'll discuss that when we come to it. So freedom means the sense of complete austerity and a sense of total negation of the observer.

Is religion all the things that thought has put together? The rituals, the robes, the gurus, the perpetual repetition, prayers and the whole thing, is that religion? Or is it a big business concern? There is a temple in South India that makes a million dollars every third day. You understand what I am saying? Every third day that temple gathers...

...we are going to enquire into that. That is, what is religion? Please understand, we have talked about fear, we talked about psychological wounds, not to carry for the rest of one's life. We talked and have gone into it together, what is relationship, the significance of relationship. Nothing can exist on earth without relationship, and that...

...if you have ever looked at the word 'reviving'. You can only revive something that's dead or dying. Nothing living, you can't revive a living thing. And in this country they are reviving religion. And also they are doing the same thing in different parts of the world. And there is division between nationalities, religion, economic, and so...

...so you see what meditation is. What relation has meditation with that which we have called religion? We said religion is not under any circumstances the worship of another. The worship of a saviour, the image, the belief, the dogma, the priests, all that is not religion. Any intellectual human being accepts that logically, but at the moment of...

It is a grave matter and we ought to think over it together, go into it together, not interpreting according to our particular idiosyncrasies and fancies and likes and dislikes, but rather investigate together, examine together, so that we establish between ourselves a kind of communication in which there is sharing, in which there is journeying together into the human problems, and especially into this question of what is religion.

...And if there is a transformation of one or two of us, and that transformation does bring about a new culture. Culture can only be a new one, can only come out of a religion, not out of superstition, not out of ideas, however good or bad. Religion, not these things we call religion: the puja, the rituals, the fancy robes and so on and so on. That...

K: Another problem which we ought to discuss - we said yesterday we would - religion, meditation, and if there is something sacred. We said we would talk about that.

K: Therefore, no - so, then what is love? Does it discriminate? I mean, love is love, you can't say I'll discriminate and say, 'I love you, I don't love you.'

So we are asking: is pleasure love? Now, sit up and take notice. To most of us pleasure is love. Isn't it? No? Sexual pleasure, possessing the wife or the husband, mine, my husband, my wife, which is, my image of my wife and the image she has about me. And is love desire, which is pleasure? Is love the movement of thought as remembrance? Come on...

So time, thought, which gives continuity, and we cling to that continuity and therefore there is fear. And fear destroys love - right? So love, compassion and death. They are not separate movements.

So love is not hate - right? If love is born out of hate then it is not love. Is that clear? If I - I don't, the speaker does not hate anybody, but suppose he does - then he says, 'I mustn't hate, I must love', that is not love. It is still part of hate. It is a decision, it is an act of thought. And thought is not love. I won't go into that now,...

So, see what has taken place when we hear this question: I want to be loved, and I am not, I live in great anguish, what am I to do? That means one has no love in oneself. Then how can another love you - you understand? If you have no love and you are incapable then of receiving love - you understand? Love is not a vacuum, like a sense of...

You know, to find out anything humanly, one must begin with a certain quality of freedom, mustn't one, because if you are to investigate into such a complex problem as love, one must come to that investigation with a freedom from all our particular prejudices, idiosyncrasies and tendencies, our wishes of what love should be, either Victorian or modern.

K: Of course, love of, or love, I don t know what they mean anyhow. It has no meaning. They say love of my country, and my love is going to kill you.

K: We have to discuss this question, living - living, love and this enormous thing called death. You follow? Are they interrelated or are they separate - living, existing, is it different from love?

...Oh, gee whillikins! Not attention, madam, we have gone into that. I love you - watch yourself, do, you love somebody, don't you? You love somebody and that love is not controlled by desire, that love is not the pursuit of pleasure - we went into all this before. Then what is the relationship between two human beings, man, woman, when there is this...

So what will you do? Without love - if you have love then you can do what you will. Because you have no love, you've all the gods, all the gurus, all the nonsense that is going on in this country. Do you understand all this, sirs?

...what happens in our life? Dependency, possession, jealousy, anxiety, fear, violence, the demand of more and more pleasure, sex and so on and so on, so on. And that's what we call relationship. Right? And that is what we call love. Now why does the mind, feeling so completely lonely, why can't it resolve that loneliness and not proceed to be...

K: Now, then thought comes along and says, I've been afraid or because of this and because of that, now I must defend myself, rationalise fear and so on, so on, so on. It's so obvious, what are we discussing?

K: Oh, I see what you are trying to get at. Why do I say it is not all right. Because fear is devastating, it blocks one's mind, thought and all the rest of it, one shrinks in that fear.

...force him to look, obviously. You can't cajole him, you can't promise. You can't say, well, my dear chap, do look and you'll get something out of it. Don't bother to look, but be aware of your fear. Don't bother to look at this factor of the systems that have been developed through centuries that hold you, don't bother about that, but be aware of...

K: You observe fear and find yourself moving away from it. What are you to do? First of all, don't resist moving away. Move away, go with it, and come back to fear again. Look, to observe fear - please listen to this very simple fact - you must give attention, mustn't you? You must give attention, attention being, don't condemn, don't judge, don't...

JK: You are your name. You are your form, body. You are all the reactions and actions. You are the belief, you are the fear, you are the suffering and pleasure. You are all that.

So we are going to find out, enquiring together, not me alone, find out whether it is possible to have no fear whatsoever, both physically as well as psychologically. Are you interested in this? Don't encourage, I am not asking for encouragement. (Laughter) Because to live under fear is the most appalling thing, it is living in darkness, living in...

...You've already projected what might happen. But I don't know. You see the difference? By projecting it, say what might happen, it might destroy my house, my relationship, I might lose my job - all that adds more fear. But it may not be like that at all. You follow? Threat implies that you have a certain standard of life and if you investigate into...

...that your motive in following is the reward. And truth is not a reward. If one is to understand it, any form of reward and punishment must be totally set aside. Authority implies fear. And to discipline oneself according to that fear of not gaining what the exploiter in the name of truth or experience, and all the rest of it says, denies one's own...

So, if I want to find out if there is anything sacred, I must start very near. The very near is me. And can I free myself from fear, agony, sorrow, despair - all that? When there is freedom I can move, I can climb mountains.

...of what is happening around us in the world, and the fact that most of us are concerned with ourselves. And in a world that has no peace whatsoever, there is such chaos, disorder, great danger, terrorism, threats of war - these are all facts. And in this world, living every day of our lives, with all the turmoil, with all the labour that man has...

How does one find peace in the world, and in oneself? I am sure one has asked this question of oneself: to live completely peacefully in relationship to others, not isolate oneself, that is fairly simple and also it has its own dangers. The dangers are that you become more and more self-centred, or commit yourself to some symbol, a figure, or to...

JK: Then I either contribute to the whole mess, or keep out of it. That is not to be - to be at peace, to have order in oneself. I will come to that. I am going too fast.

...you ever enquired into what is silence? What is silence? What is peace? Is peace between two wars? That's what's happening: what we call peace, it's between two wars. This war, like the next war, is to end all wars. Do you understand that? You have understood that phrase? This war, like the next war, is to end all wars. That is, is peace between...

Man has evolved probably a million years or less or more biologically, and man has always been crying for peace on earth; pacem in terris, the old Latin phrase. And apparently there is no peace in the world; without peace we cannot possibly flower. We can possibly, not evolve, but see the extraordinary depth of life, the beauty of it; the...

...as the speaker is giving in understanding? Or you are just listening, you know, playing with words. And it would be a thousand pities if you don't understand this simple thing because man has lived in conflict, and he wants peace through conflict. And there can never be peace through conflict, however many armaments and all that you may have,...

...in a state of mind that is always comparing - bigger car, less car, more beautiful, less beautiful, more intelligent, less - you follow? - more money, less - more peace, less peace - God, truth - you follow? Why am I comparing? Please I am curious, you understand, I am learning. Why am I comparing? And I see this comparison has brought inadequacy...

...in its entirety, they listen partially - agree in the sense, go together up to a certain distance, and stop there. If man really says I must have peace in the world, therefore I must live peacefully, then there is peace in the world. But he doesn't want to live in peace, he does everything opposite to that - his ambition, his arrogance, his silly...

Talking about peace, can there be peace in this world? Not in heaven, that's an old, old traditional disease. Can there be peace between human beings, whatever their colour, their race, their language, their so-called culture? And to find that peace, there must be peace between you and another, between you, your wife, your children. You...

And also we ought to consider together, what is peace? The obvious meaning is not to have conflict, not to have pain, not to suffer, not to have everlasting struggle from the moment you are born till you die. That is, to have no problems at all and no conflict. Is that possible? Is it possible to live in this world, not run away from the world, is...

...The other is not freedom. And therefore, sir, the communists say there is no such thing as freedom. That's a bourgeois idea. Of course it is, a bourgeois idea, because they live in ideas, concepts, not in action. They live according to ideas and carry those ideas out in action, which is not action, the doing. I don't know...

...anger is me, why cannot I see that the whole characteristics, the idiosyncrasies, the vanities, the hurts, is part of me, is me? Why don't you see that? If you see that, then what is the action? There is no action, there is no action. You understand? We are used to action, to do something about ourselves, therefore we say, the thing we observe, we...

So is there an action in our daily life which is both skilful and not perpetuating the self? That is one problem. Because through our education we have developed, through experience, this enormous skill, and therefore it has given us a great deal of strength, vitality and comfort in the realm of skill and therefore perpetuating the self. Now is...

So one asks the question, which is, is there an action which is not fragmentary and which does not contradict another action which is going to take place next minute.

...educationally, in business, in the whole of life, responsible for the total behaviour, not in a particular direction. I think there is great deal of difference when I say, when one says I am responsible for my action. That means you are responsible for your action according to the idea that you have preconceived about...

...to find out there must be care, there must be attention. Right? So one has to begin by finding out what is action. Everything is action: getting up, sitting down, walking, looking at the skies, the trees, talking, being miserable, going to the office, quarrelling, violence, everything in human relationship is action, even in the technological...

K: And so that condition goes on. But when one realises the actor is the action, then the whole outlook changes altogether.

Now we are asking: is there an action which is not based on time? Think it out sirs. Think it out, don't wait for me, for the speaker to explain, think it out. It is a very simple question, but has tremendous meaning behind it. That is, I have always acted according to my tradition. The tradition may be one day old, or five thousand years old. I...

As we were saying, that without understanding the content of consciousness, and perhaps going beyond it, any action, however significant it may be, without understanding the fragmentary nature of our consciousness, whatever our action, however significant it may be, must produce confusion. I think this must be very clear. It's like giving a great...

...would that answer many of the questions. Or, would you discuss action, action in daily life, the doing, the way of behaviour, the way of conduct, the way of a relationship in which all action takes place, is there an action that is so totally complete that it doesn't leave a sad remembrance? Is that the question,...

K: That's it, sir. There is not even affection to understand something. If you and I had affection - if you had affection and I had affection for you, and I say, look, for god's sake, do look at this, and because you have affection for me, or love for me, and what I say becomes important to you.

...Do think about it a minute. We don't understand what relationship means. Because I come along and say, look, let us talk as two friends, which implies care, affection, love, consideration, involvement, commitment, and you sit there and say, 'You go on talking, but...' You would never say that to your wife or husband or girlfriend or boyfriend...

K: ...you protect it with affection, taking it in your lap, cuddling him or her, and holding his hand, you make him feel that he is loved, that he is cared for. That gives him a feeling, here is somebody who is looking after me, and there is security here.

Krishnamurti: Yes. I think that is affection, that is love. When you talk to my waking consciousness, it is hard, clever, subtle, brittle. And you penetrate that, say, all right, keep your own beastly little stuff, and you penetrate it with your look, with your affection, with all that feeling you have. That operates, not anything else.

...Ah, not we have to love. That is not an action of will. If there is to be an understanding of 'what is', and 'what is ' may be violence, greed, brutality, cruelty or affection or joy - awareness implies great care in looking. When you have a baby don't you - the mother cares infinitely with affection, gets up at two, three or four o'clock in the...

...also I would like to point out: I think we don't listen; we don't really try to find out what the other person is trying to say. And listening requires certain attention, care, affection. If I want to understand what you are saying I must listen to you, not block myself all the way, all the time. I must care for what you are saying, I must have...

...me, is that a form of vanity? It's like a man who is vain, as most of us are, and out of that vanity we try to be humble. Is that humility? A man who is full of aggression, violence, tries to be modest. You understand? It's absurd, it's lost its meaning. Whereas, a man who is aggressive realises, sees what aggression has done in this world and all...

...in our relationship when you are nothing? You understand? You know what it means to be nothing? No ambition, which doesn't mean you vegetate, no competition, no aggression, no resistance, no barriers built by hurt - you are absolutely nothing. Then what is it to be related to another? Have you ever thought about all this, or is it all so...

So we are saying, observe without direction, attachment, or aggression, or your violence. Observe it without any motive, direction, desire, just to observe it, and in that very observation there is an ending of it. And therefore you are inviting death while living. You follow? I wonder if you understand this? Not commit suicide, that's another...

THIRD QUESTION: How does one meet aggression and psychological attack from a close relative from whom one cannot escape? (Laughter)

K: Oh, no. No, no, no, no, you have not understood what we have said. Both arise, love and aggression, they have no formulas. Really, that is not what we are talking about.

K: No, just sir. This is really for half an hour, do please put your minds to this, I beg of you. Are you different from your aggression? Obviously you are not. You are aggression, it is part of you.

So is our approach free from our conclusions, from our experience, from our knowledge? If it is from our experience, from our knowledge, you have already answered the problem, which will be according to time, which will be according to your conditioning. But if you come to it freely, to observe, then there is immediate action.

...No, sir. That's why the difficulty. Wait, sir, let's finish this first. I am unhappy, miserable, sorrow - laden with it. And I want to experience something which has no sorrow because that is my craving. I want to have an ideal, a principle, or an end, which by struggling I ultimately get that. That's my craving. And I want to experience that and...

So when the brain and the mind and the body are absolutely quiet, that is, when there is no entity that is measuring all the time, comparing - 'I have had this experience yesterday and I'd like to have it more, or I would like to have further experience,' which is all measurement.

Sirs, you see throughout the ages man has sought something which is beyond time, which is beyond thought, beyond all experience, something totally the origin of all things. He wanted it, he wanted to enquire, find out. And there were those people who said, 'I have found out, I will tell you all about it.' They were caught in that trap. And that is...

K: And also, sir, the question arises, can one actually experience something which is not experienceable? We use the word 'experience' so easily - 'realise', 'experience', 'attain', 'self-realisation', all these things - can one actually experience the feeling of supreme ecstasy? Let's take that for the moment, that word. Can one experience it?...

...Yes. Now what is involved in that? What is involved in the demand of our experience, and the experiencing of that demand? I experience what that guru or master, or somebody tells me, how do I know it is real? And I say, I recognise it, don't I, sir? Look, I experience something, and I can only know that I have experienced it only when I have...

So then there is the authority of another, and the dependence on another; there is the authority of tradition, there is the authority of the past as memory, as experience, as knowledge. And there is the authority of an experience which is the immediate. Are you following all this? You have had an experience, and that becomes the authority. And...

As you say, the infinite, can one experience the infinite? This is really quite a fundamental question, not only here but in life. We can experience something which we have already known. I experience meeting you. That's an experience, meeting you, or you meeting me, or my meeting X. And when I meet you next time I recognise you, don't I? I say,...

...I am going into it. So in meditation there is no experience. Right? I wonder if you see that. This is very important to understand. Experience implies, the word 'experience' means to go through, not to hold something back, to go through and finish. The meaning of that word. And also in experience several things are implied. When you have an...

And again to be attached to an experience, to hold on to an experience, some experience that you have had, talking or walking by yourself in a wood, you suddenly come or feel this oneness with nature, that there is no division between you and the world about you, this sense of wholeness. It happens and that is an experience which is registered in...

JK: Yes, it is the activity of thought. Now if I consciously meditate, practise, do all this kind of what I call nonsense, then you are making the brain conform to another series of patterns.

K: Are you saying no? When are you then generous? When are you feeling affectionate, kind, generous, sympathetic? Or do you never feel it? Or only occasionally?

So what will bring us together? Belief won't, authority of any kind is rejected, the reward by another as a means for you to change is also rejected. And if you say you are going to be punished in heaven for not obeying, you say 'Go away, don't be silly', and you pass him. So what will make us come together?

K: That's what I'm I am coming to that, madame. Look at it, sir. He is attracted to it, attracted to all that, and he won't listen to my talk. He kind of avoids me. Right? Don't you know all this, as parents? No?

K: Who invented exams? (Laughter) The Chinese? The Mandarins? I believe they were the original people who kind of invented this monstrous system.

K: No, but that's not I'm saying, the source of fear of every kind that human beings have is born from thought. Will you listen to that statement, as you would listen when I say I really love you? Because it's too simple, your mind immediately says, 'No, that's too damn simple, it's not, it is much more complicated than that'.

...when given an opportunity it breaks through. Which is it? I've seen so many people in - I've lived a long time - from the age of fifteen I've seen this happen, with people of my own age - begin beautiful, you know, and gradually finish, destructive, cruel, brutal, self-centred, ugly, drunk.

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