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    Either he is incapable of seeing the facts, or he likes to live in an illusion, in a make-belief which has nothing whatsoever to do with actuality: the actuality being what is taking place now. Or he separates the experience, the idea, the ideal, the belief as being not accurate but holds on to them because intellectually he is incapable of...

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    So let's proceed. Do we see, not as an idea, but as an actuality, that there is no psychological security? Or are you frightened of it? Frightened of this enormous fact?

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    K: That's a rationalisation, logic and all the rest of it, but isn't an actuality. So how are you going to make me understand and see the actuality of it? You can't do it, unless you can't do it. You can't hit me on the head.

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    K: I am coming to that. What value is that to you? Either you accept it, or you say, don't be silly, and walk away, as it is not possible, and you leave it. But if you want to enquire and say, look, is it possible, let's find out - not as an idea but as an actuality in daily life. Right? Somebody join us!

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    Please understand this - not intellectually or ideologically or a hypothesis, but it is an actuality, burning reality, that you psychologically are the rest of mankind. Therefore psychologically you are not individuals. Though religions, except perhaps parts of Hinduism and Buddhism, have entertained, encouraged the sense of individual growth,...

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    So the future is now. In the now all time is contained. This is a fact too, actuality, not a theory. What you are is the result of the past and what you will be tomorrow is what you are now. If I am violent now tomorrow I'll be violent.

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    K: The gentleman says, I don't know. Is that a mere verbal statement, or an actuality? When you say, 'I don't know', you are expecting an answer from the speaker? Or you say, 'I really don't know what to do'. That means you are shedding blood - you understand, sir? - and tears, not just say, 'Well, I don't know'.

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    ...Yes. That's right. Whatever you have done on earth - in quotes - has no meaning, the ground says. Is that an idea or an actuality? You understand? Idea being that you have told me but I still go on, struggling, wanting, groping, searching. But it is an actuality, in the sense that I suddenly realise the futility of all that I have done....

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    ...be free to observe, free to listen. And that, I am afraid, is one of the most difficult things to do, to listen. Because we are going together during these talks, and discussions, to investigate into the actuality of our daily life. We are not going to discuss theories because they are utterly meaningless, nor speculative ideas, which are equally...

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    ...what will you do? You understand my question? Any movement of thought to be other than what it is, is still thinking - right? I am greedy, but I must not be greedy, it is still thinking. Thinking has put together all the paraphernalia, all that business that goes on in churches and all that, is put together by thought. Like this marquee or tent is...

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    ...has no meaning, and I want to find out what is the meaning of living, if there is a different way of living. I see there is a different way of living when there is no division in action, in thought, in the observer and the observed. You are following all this? Then there is no division, I am not a Hindu, or a Muslim, or a Jew, or an Arab. Right? I...

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    So thought is responsible for pleasure, pain, fear. And also thought is afraid of being completely lonely. Thought has already condemned it, and so thought invents a way of escaping from that loneliness through various forms of religious entertainments or cultural something or other, the everlasting search for deeper and wider dependencies.

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    K: Please listen to what I just now said: all thought, because all thought is fragment, all thought leads to sorrow. If you see the what takes place?

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    And if thought is a material process, then what are we? You understand my question? What are we, psychologically? Thought says you are Hindu. Thought says you are a great man. Thought says you must achieve enlightenment. Right? Thought says you must meditate. Thought says obey, follow, become like somebody else. So thought says become, both...

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    So we have cultivated memory, which has developed extraordinary technology - terrifying, beneficial, but it is still based on thought, and thought being the result of the response of knowledge, knowledge can never be whole, therefore thought is partial - please take this in - partial, limited, and that which it has created, it will always be limited, will always be divisive.

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    Isn't it clear, first, what thought has done in the world? Right? Thought in science, the whole development of technology, and what it has done in the world, both beneficial and destructive. Thought has put together a series of religious structures and beliefs, as superstitions, mythology and saviours - no? How thought has divided people in...

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    Say, when you meditate - so-called traditional meditation - you are always trying to control thought. Do please be simple and acknowledge this. You are always trying to control thought, aren't you? Who is the controller? Do you say some divine entity? The higher self? The higher monkey? You never even question it, you never even find out, you...

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    ...conformity, if there are no hurts, no conclusions and therefore no image, what am I? I am all these things. Right? The thought that says, 'I must analyse, I must go beyond this, I am in conflict, I must'- you follow? It is thought that created all these images, divisions, and it is thought that says, 'I must go beyond all this to live a peaceful,...

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    Of course it is. Don't accept the speaker's word for it, look at it. I am this, I am frightened of tomorrow, what might happen. I am secure today, and there might be war, there might be this, there might be catastrophe, I am frightened. So time and thought are the root of fear.

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    ...has stored up in the brain which is awakened when an incident takes place. Right? And memory is the past. Right? So we are the past. Can this whole movement of the past, which is time, which is thought, end? Not thought in our daily life, we're not talking of that, we're not talking when thought is used to drive a car, to write a letter, to write...

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    K: That makes three - the 'I', the thought and action of that thought. So you've got much more complicated. See, sir, first listen to it, listen. Don't come to any conclusion, first listen to what I am saying, what the speaker is saying. I have to earn a livelihood, a livelihood has to be earned, therefore thought must be employed there. I come...

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    ...in god, most of you? Silence? Most of you believe in god. You've never asked why. If there is no fear in your heart, absolutely no fear, would you have gods? And gods are created by thought. Go to any temple, any mosque or any cathedral and all the things apart from architecture - the great cathedrals of Europe have marvellous architecture,...

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    Can thought give security? And all our culture, all our religious activity, political, economic, social and intimate relationship is based on thought. And through thought we try to find complete inward security.

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    ...must always be limited, because knowledge is never complete. Right? Can never be complete, in any field. So with knowledge goes ignorance. Therefore thought is always limited, partial, it can never be complete. Right? Don't agree with me, sirs, examine it. So thought has created this world of confusion, because in itself it's limited. Right?...

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    ...to be completely aware? Now is there a difference - I am asking you - between the outer, that is the political, social, economic, and all the things that are happening in the world, the violence, the brutality, the appalling political chicanery, deception, all that is going out there, is it not also going on inwardly? Is society created by us, or...

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    ...then thought can be used intelligently, efficiently, objectively. Because it is thought that has created this violence, thought with its ideologies, with its conclusions, with its separative beliefs, ideals, and when one observes thought it is the very basis of fragmentation. All right? Are we communicating with each other? That is, you know we...

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    So please bear in mind through all these talks that we are going to have for the next three weeks, every Saturday and Sunday and dialogues on Tuesdays and Thursdays, that we are gathered here for a very, very serious purpose: how to transform the human mind, the mind that has lived over many, many millennia, in sorrow, suffering, violence, bitterness, anxiety, fear, wars, violence.

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    And how do I look at that violence? As a censor who condemns violence? Or justifies violence? Or one who is not capable of dealing with that violence, therefore escapes from it? How do I look at myself, how do I look at that violence? Please do it. Are you looking at it as an observer who is different from violence? The observer who is separate,...

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    K: I am coming Slowly. I am moving, edging our way into this. I want to be quite clear on this point. Violence and to be without violence are two entirely different factors. Right?

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    ...am violent. Human beings are unfortunately violent beings: violence, for various causes, we know all that. To change violence - to transform it so that the mind is never violent, does it need time? If you admit it needs time, then that violence takes another form because it is still within the same area. Right? Some of you have got it? If you have...

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    Whereas if you observe violence in yourself, violence brought about through fear, through insecurity, through the sense of loneliness, dependency, the cutting off of your pleasures and so on, if you are aware of that, observe it totally, without analysis, then you have all the energy which has been dissipated through analysis to go beyond 'what is'.

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    K: Yes, that is what I am saying because I am interested in pointing out. History is the story of yourself - the violence, the hatreds, the jealousies, you know, the whole thing.

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    So if there is no separation between violence and the thought that I am different from violence, when there is no separation there is only violence. Please follow this a little bit. There is only that state of sensation which you have named as violence. To look at that, to observe that violence without the word, to observe it, not as an observer...

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    And the next question is: what is right action with regard to violence and when faced with violence? What is right action with regard to violence. What is violence? Go on sir, what is violence? Anger? Hatred? I am just going into it, please. Anger, hatred, conformity, imitation, obedience? Or the denial of all that, the opposite of all that? You...

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    And that violence and deterioration is part of me, so this bundle is me. That's a fact. So I am entirely in contact with it, wholly, there is no part of me that is not touching it entirely. I can't put it ten different ways.

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    K: Yes, madame, we have understood the question. The parents may be free from violence but my children are attracted to violence - what am I to do?

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    So I am only concerned with 'what is', which is violence. Then what is violence? Obviously to physically hurt somebody, physically to attack somebody, you know, anger and all the rest of it. Or violence is a state of contradiction in which I live. Why is there contradiction? Contradiction exists only when I do not accept 'what is' but always...

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    ...last, whatever it is, I would like to, if I may, talk about a great many things. First, as one observes what is going on right round the world, both economically and socially, and in the human being, there is really a great deal of confusion, mischief, and violence. These are obvious facts. And the politicians perhaps encourage it, and the...

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    ...the description is not the described, and therefore is of very little value. You know why you are violent very well, you haven't got to spend years trying to find out the cause of your violence, which is such a waste of time. But to observe violence as it is, without the censor, who then separates himself from the fact that he is violent. Are we...

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    ...I hope I am making myself clear. Our minds are programmed by knowledge. Is this all right? Are we going together? Sir, your minds - your brains rather, have been conditioned through thousands and thousands of years. At the end of these years you say, 'I am a Hindu', 'I am a Muslim', 'I am a Christian', which is, that you have been programmed. You...

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    JK: And wars have been going on for thousands of years. That is why I am saying we are carrying on with the same pattern of the last five thousands years or more, of wars.

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    ...why we live this way. Why we are mechanical in our relationship, in our ways of thinking, why we tolerate any form of violence, both in ourselves and externally, why though man has lived for thousands and thousands and thousands of years he lives in sorrow, without any love, frightened, miserable, utterly unintelligent.

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    ...hating, violent, superstitious as we were fifty thousand years ago. We have perhaps become more sophisticated in our superstitions, in our worship, in our temples, in our churches and mosques and so on, but essentially we are what we have been many thousands of years ago. Religiously we are broken up, we belong to various sects, gurus, believing...

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    ...of his psyche, part of his consciousness, his action and reaction. You hate me and I hate you, you kick me and I kick you. That's what we are doing. That is what man has done for thousands of years. And we say to ourselves, some day it will end, through League of Nations - absurd, isn't it - through some divine action, through some mutation in the...

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    ...see, you daren't acknowledge yourself to yourself. You depend on others. So when one sees what is happening in this country, as well as in other countries, one realises that man has become what he was thousands and thousands of years ago, completely concerned with himself. He has become extraordinarily selfish, self-centred, thinking about his own...

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    So please bear in mind, if you will, that we are going to talk over as two friends - we may be strangers, perhaps - the speaker doesn't know all of you, certainly not, but as we are here this morning and the next week, we are going to quietly, hesitantly, tentatively look what we are doing, enquire together, after all these millennia of evolution, thousands upon thousands of years of long duration of time, why we are what we are.

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    ...- I am not telling you what to do, please. I am not your guru. I am not your leader. I am not your helper. That's not cruelty because we have been helped by so many people for thousands of years and this help has made us weak. This help from seeking from so many directions is making us feeble. We cannot stand on our own feet, observe and be...

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    Sir, look, I'll explain. Just listen. Tradition in India has established for thousands of years that to find enlightenment, to find god, to find whatever it is they promise, you must become a sannyasi, that is, renounce the world. Right?

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    K: Therefore they indulge in all kinds of various absurdities, but to come to that point when the mind is absolutely silent, absolutely, completely silent, out of that silence there is this movement which is always new, eternally new. And the moment when that movement is expressed ...

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    ...us then we can proceed. But please this is just the foundation, the first couple of bricks. Unless we lay very deep foundations you cannot go very far. The first movement matters enormously. Whether that movement is precise - which is the brick - precise, correct, impersonal and it becomes impersonal when you are considering the whole of life,...

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    K: What do I mean by life has its own movement. All right. We see knowledge as a movement from the past through the present to the future, adding, taking away, modifying and so on. That's a movement, isn't it? It is not dead static thing. Right? And do I realize that the past is interfering in a relationship which is also a movement?

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    ...heaven's name what will is, because that plays such an extraordinary part in our life. I must give up smoking. I must not do this, and so on. What is that will? It is a movement, isn't it? Obviously. A movement in a direction, in a particular direction, either the negative direction, or the positive direction, but it is a direction. Please listen...

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    ...which means all authority, then you have tremendous energy. With that energy you can begin to enquire what actually takes place when you have not totally resolved the structure and the nature of the self - the self being time and therefore movement and therefore division - right? - the 'me' and the 'not me', and hence conflict. Now what happens to...

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    ...that is taking place. All right. Which means what? Aware that the past is interfering and therefore preventing the brain to learn. Right? Be aware of this movement: the past interfering and stopping learning. Right? Be aware of this. Go slowly sir. Be aware of this movement. Are you aware of it as we are talking? Then if you are aware of it, of...

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    ...says, minimise the thing, don't be everlastingly greedy - silly. So what has happened? I am, but I will be. You understand? I am violent, I will be non-violent. That is a movement in time. And in that movement I am still violent. I don't know if you understand. It is a dialogue between us,...

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    ...stopped Yes, sir. There was no contradiction, I'll show it to you in a minute. The gentleman says, in what you said yesterday: that thought is a movement, and that movement can never be stopped - that seems to be a contradiction, that's what the questioner says.

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    Krishnamurti: As we say, sir, can thought in its movement, or thought is movement, in that movement is there harmony? If there is, then it has relationship with the other. If there is no harmony and therefore it is contradiction, change, and all the rest of it - thought, then it has no relationship with the other.

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    Now, meditation implies no movement at all. That means the mind is totally still, it is not moving in any direction. There is no movement, movement being time, movement being thought. If you see the truth of it - not the verbal description of it but the truth, which cannot be described - if you see the truth of this then there is that quiet still...

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    K: No, I am not saying that there is a plan. I am asking, or enquiring, whether there is such a movement, such progress at all.

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    K: Yes, sir, you can say that, but it's the same movement, if we don't have to divide it as love and freedom and goodness and beauty - it's all one movement.

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    ...images, and has understood the nature of freedom, real freedom in which there is no sense of moving away from something. If you move away from, let's say, if you move away from anxiety, the movement is time. And therefore that movement may appear secure, security but that movement has inherently in itself uncertainty. Right? You are getting it? Is...

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    To observe a tree, a person, to observe the movement of your own thinking; to observe your own reactions, your own loneliness, depression, sorrow, pain; to observe the quality of your mind, whether that quality is merely repetitive, whether having read a great many books it merely repeats what other people have said, or you have discovered it, that you are a second-hand human being - because that is how we live, on what other people have said, and discover whether you can find for yourself something original, something true.

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    Then what is the state of the mind, the brain that is not caught in this movement? Is that at all possible? Is it at all possible not to respond hatred by hatred, which is what's happening inwardly? Can you see, having created confusion, seeking clarity, and that clarity is partial, and then caught again by the outer world and so on. The back and...

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    ...kinds of darkness, like an onion with many, many layers, that essence of the highest is 'me' - that is still part of thinking. Right? When you feel that the essence is 'me' that's part of your process of thought. Somebody has put it into your mind or you have invented it yourself. I wonder if you are following all this? You may not believe it but...

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    ...don't listen to me. What is thinking? You can't live without a certain kind of thinking. Right? Planning, going back to your house, going back to do your work and so on, you are married, sex and everything is contained in the process of thought. So what is thinking? The speaker has talked about it a lot, so don't go back to his books. Don't say,...

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    ...mean that at all; that is another invention of thought. The higher consciousness and bring it down to the lower consciousness. You know all that game one plays, which is still the product and the process of thought.

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    ...that thought has put together. Thought whether through the mind as an image, as a symbol, or through the hand, a sculpture, a symbol. The image made by the hand or by the mind is the process of thought. And thought, we said, is memory, experience, knowledge, which is past. And the past becomes the tradition, and the tradition becomes the most...

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    ...mode - there is a constant continuity. So that is the question. And is it possible - not consciously, because if you do something consciously, then it is part of the process of thought - to find out whether time has an end, not cultivated, not through the action of will, stop thought. Will is part of thought, will is part of desire, and when there...

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    ...and thought. Whether you say, 'I am the Atman' - I am this, I am that, it is still the product of thought. Right? However much you may dislike the idea that you are merely a process of thought, the actuality is that you are. However much you may invent the super, super consciousness, it is still the process of thought. So are you, as a human...

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    ...or your boyfriend - gosh, this boy and girl, I'm getting bored with this! (Laughter) We go on till we die with this question, boy, girl - you follow? - woman, man. It's so silly! I am pointing out, the image-making is the process of thought. Thought has made this image, therefore there is conflict in that. I see the tremendous danger in conflict,...

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    So this morning we have talked about various things, like relationship between human beings, or the utter lack of that relationship; we have talked about the process of thought as a material movement in time; and thought, we said, is inadequate, totally inadequate to solve our human problems because thought has created them, and thought cannot solve them because thought is a fragment, a material process and a movement of measure.

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    JK: Yes, that's right. That is very clear. As long as there is measurement, which is the becoming, which is the process of thought, meditation or silence cannot be.

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    ...no? I am a Christian, I am a Buddhist, I am a Hindu, I am proud, I am vain - you follow? - all that is you. Or you think you are god, or a superior spiritual something inside you which is above all this - which is again a process of thought. Right? So the process of thought is hurt. And how do you prevent future hurts? Not by resistance, not by...

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    K: Bombardment. (Gap) great many scientists, a great many blah, blah, blah, blah - right? - I talk to ministers, prime ministers, all that rot, and they kind of say to me, 'Oh, I want to learn a great deal from you'. The next moment they're telling about Rig Veda! (Laughs)

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    ...you, the word is not that. But if you live on words it is that. You understand? The word is not that; like the word 'tree' is not the tree. I can describe eternity, blah, blah, blah, but the word is not that. But we are satisfied with the word. Right, sir? You love with your heart, with your mind, with everything that you have, you love somebody,...

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    K: That's the whole thing! How does it come about that one part of the mind says we are different from A, B, C. Of course there are all kinds of explanations - Karma, reincarnation, blah, blah, blah. Remove all those explanations, what am I left with, the fact that A, B, C are different from 'X', 'Y', 'Z'. And those are facts. Right?

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    K: I know all the tricks. I have watched the monkey operating at various levels, it is still the monkey. What is the next question? If the monkey is very satisfied, says, I have got a lot of space, I am happy, I am building my tail and related to everything and blah, blah, blah. You say 'that's the end of it'.

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    ...important executive in my business, or whatever it is, is separating me from her - right? - because I am concerned with myself. And she is concerned with herself - her fulfilment, her blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. So is there an observation - please listen to this, because I am going to relate it presently to Is there an observation without the...

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    ...forget it. Let's start it again. As long as - please help me, sir - I have got an image about myself, a marvellous image. I have talked for fifty years, and I am a great man, I am extraordinarily clever, this, blah, blah, blah. You come along and tread on it. And I get hurt because I have this immense egotistic picture about myself. Right? Now...

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    ...must do something about it, which immediately puts me out of society. And I don't mind. (Laughter) But if I say I like the pleasant the niceties of society, dinner parties and night clubs and all the blah, blah, blah, then of course there is no communication.

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    ...part of that world. If I am attached to this country saying, I am a Hindu, I am proud of being a Hindu, I am ancient, blah, blah, blah, blah - all that, if I am attached to that, I cannot possibly observe the division that is going on in the world - the Arab, the Jew, the Communists, the Socialists and so on, so on, so on. So, to learn to observe...

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    ...all the politicians drop their opinions and say, 'Look, what is best for the world,' come together, they could solve all these problems. They won't, because they are Conservatives, Liberal and blah, blah, blah. And we are doing exactly the same thing...

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    What part do psychic healing, astral projection, the ability to see - blah, blah - play in all this and can these interfere with relationship and our abilities to see clearly?

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    ...pattern, that idea of suppression, escape through identifying with some idol, person, or concept, that hasn't solved the problem. So we have to go together, investigate, think together, what is the nature of pleasure.

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    If you understand this deeply, then we can enquire into the nature of pleasure, because we enquired yesterday into the nature and the movement of fear. I do not know whether you have tested it out and are free of fear completely, without a shadow of it - that is real freedom, that is real moksha on earth, to be free completely, entirely from the...

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    ...seek pleasure. We are not saying it is right or wrong. We are not condemning pleasure, as we are not condemning desire. Desire is part of pleasure. The fulfilment of desire is the nature of pleasure. So we ought to talk over together not only the nature of pleasure but also what is desire. Desire may be the cause of disorder, each one wanting to...

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    K: And when we are talking about pleasure I think we think we ought to be clear that we are not condemning pleasure. We are not trying to become puritanical or permissive. We are trying to investigate or examine, explore the whole structure and nature of pleasure, as we did fear.

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    ...- pleasure in various forms, pleasure of possessions, pleasure in becoming something, pleasure in all the sensory responses. But to understand the nature of pleasure one must go into the nature and understand what is love. Because when one loves, if that is possible at all, pleasure has quite a different meaning. It may not be necessary at all. So...

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    ...of fear. Time and thought are the root of pleasure. We want to deny fear, but pursue pleasure. They are two sides of the same coin. You cannot be free from fear if you do not understand the nature of pleasure. When you look at that mountain, though it is a cloudy morning, when you look at these marvellous old trees and the blue sky, it gives you a...

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    So we are enquiring into the nature of pleasure. What is pleasure? Go on, sir, think it out - because it is very important, because pleasure and fear go together. When pleasure is denied there is violence which is part of fear. So one must understand the nature of pleasure, not suppress it, control it, deny it, or run away from it, but understand...

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    So as we went over the other day the nature and the structure of fear, together again let us observe the nature of pleasure. Why human beings all over the world are condemned to this thing, why human beings everlastingly follow it, in different ways. Right? So what is pleasure? Why sex has become important? In this country volumes and volumes are...

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    K: No, we went into that. Which is: what is the nature of pleasure? What is pleasure? It is a constant remembrance of things past which have happened.

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    So we are going together to go into the first question this morning: the nature of pleasure. Why human beings throughout the world, and especially in this country, pursue this thing called pleasure. What is pleasure? We are together examining what it is; exploring. And when one explores, there must be a certain quality of doubt. It's part of...

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    This evening we are going to talk about several things which is: pleasure, the nature of pleasure, the structure of it. Then what is the whole movement of desire which brings about pleasure and perhaps also fear, and whether there is an ending to sorrow. And what is the relationship between love and sorrow. And perhaps if we have time, we can go...

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    So we see the nature of pleasure. I can't go more into it, briefly that is enough. Because we have a lot of things to talk over together.

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    K: You know, when you ask, as I have asked some of the ministers in the government, this country is very corrupt, they say, 'Yes, but so are the other countries'. (Laughter) So he is avoiding the question - you understand? When I ask him, 'It is very corrupt, this country', he says, 'Not so corrupt as Czechoslovakia or Indonesia'. That question is...

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    ...position, money and not caring at all for another. It is becoming more and more clear. And as the speaker has come to this country for the last sixty, or fifty years, every winter, he sees there is a rapid decline in this part of the world, called India. And it does not indicate when we talk about this particular part of the country that this...

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    So the question is: if I am director - you are asking - sir, the answer, I say, is a wrong question because this should have been put right at the beginning, not now - at the beginning of killing man, one human being killing another human being in the name of religion, in the name of country, in the name of god, in the name of crown and loyalty - my country opposed to your country, my ideology opposed to your ideology, I am a devout Marxist - I am not - Leninist, and another is Catholic, and so we are at war with each other.

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    K: Of course, through education, through history, through propaganda, through everything you come to the point when you are so conditioned you say, 'It's my country and your country'.

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    K: You are going to find out. We are going to find out. But first question, is that what you will do when somebody, government, asks you to become a soldier? This is a very complex problem this, I don't know if you can go into this. They say, 'We must protect our country'. Right? Right? So you have to question, what is our country?

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    K: And I think, sir, that is what is happening in this country, as well as in Europe and India, primarily in this country, the desire to fulfil instantly - the pleasure-seeking principle. Be entertained, football - you follow? - be entertained.

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    ...No, that's not the point I am making. The point we are making is, sir - not the country, leave the country. You see how quickly we go off to something. I am talking about attachment to your wife, to your husband, to a belief, to a faith, to an ideal, for which you are willing to kill people. So there is disorder. Out of this disorder there arises...

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    ...No, not something like that at all, sir. We operate daily with thought, and that's why there is so much mischief in the world, the 'me' and the not 'me', my country, your country, my god, my race, my belief, you know, thought. To operate entirely differently, not the opposite of it, is to find out the whole nature and the structure of thought,...

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    K: So you are frightened, or nervous, or feel the danger of not belonging to something, to a group, to a country, to a tribe.

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    K: Why? Very simple. I'm a Pakistani and he is Hindu. I want him to become a Muslim. Right? Or I think my country is bigger, nobler, and so on than his country.

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    And if you are at all serious, not merely intellectually amused but serious in front of a declining and degenerating world, specially in this country then a quality of mind that demands to investigate, to explore, to examine, not merely the description, the verbal picture but rather to investigate together why this country is becoming daily more and more confused, more and more corrupt, a way of life that is becoming mechanical.

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    ...ought also talk over together why there is so much poverty in the world. One can answer the reason for this, as in this country, overpopulation, bad government - sorry, are there governments officials here? I hope not. I am sure there are no government officials here. Bad government, corrupt government, it is so appalling what is happening. And...

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    So you have this problem: not only the salvaging of this country, which is your responsibility totally. You are totally responsible for yourself. If you are corrupt your government, your country, your everything is corrupt. If you have no sense of integrity, whatever you do will be destructive. That is one problem.

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    ...the United Nations. It is a contradiction in terms, United Nations, first of all. And they say we must gather together, become friends, give all that blah, and it never takes place, because the principle is wrong - my country and your country, my god and your god. The Russians have their ideal and... So, if one really realises, feels the depth of...

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    K: Yes, and you say it's your country. And I say, it's my country. Right? Why do we say this? Why do grown-up people say this, and the young people say it, and it has been the tradition of thousands of years - it's my country, I am going to protect it; it's your country, you are going to protect it; let's kill each other.

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    ...not verbal truth, but the actuality of your life? You know what philosophy means? The love of truth, the love of wisdom, not the speculative philosophy, not the ideational philosophy, but philosophy which means the love of truth and wisdom in your daily life now. Now can you see the truth of this, that you live in the past - your sex, your...

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    K: Yes. And all the escapes and going off into other religions, doing all kinds of tricks, has no meaning. Now, this demands a great deal of perception, insight into the fact of your life: how one lives one's life. After all philosophy means the love of truth, love of wisdom, not the love of some abstraction.

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    ...means the love of wisdom, the love of sanity. Philosophy doesn't mean love of truth. Love of truth in your daily life. Philosophy isn't merely a collection of verbal conclusions. And you have been fed on that, on conclusions of somebody else. Therefore our minds have become second-hand. I wish you would see the fact of this and realise that you...

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    The word 'philosophy' means the love of wisdom, the love of truth in daily life. It is not an abstraction. You can traditionalise what another says about truth, and so through tradition destroy truth. That's what you have done in India. You have repeated traditionally, verbally, in various languages and symbols and drama and all the rest of it a...

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    Philosophy means the love of wisdom, the love of truth, the love of truth in daily life, not an abstraction of truth, not the speculative ideas of philosophers and their theories and their clever spinning out of words. Philosophy means the love of truth in daily life. And to understand that you have to love life, love what you are, therefore, when...

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    ...all that. Philosophy implies, doesn't it, the love of truth, that is the meaning of that word, the love of truth, not an abstraction, not an ideal, not something that you project out of your background of dissatisfaction or cunning, or contrivance, but it means the love of truth in daily life; what you do, what you think, how you behave. That is...

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    ...nor a Christian, Buddhist, he doesn't belong to any category. Philosophy implies, the very meaning of that word, is the love of truth, not speculative ideas, definite conclusions, various comparative religious intentions and meanings, but rather the love of truth in daily life. And as the speaker has spent nearly over fifty years at this business,...

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    ...and pleasure and love. What is love? Is it pleasure? We have made it into pleasure, sexual, other forms of pleasure, devotional, pure God is pleasure. It's nothing to do with love of truth. It gives you pleasure to be devoted to some idiotic statue or to a person. And is love pleasure? Look at it, sirs, don't avoid it. Is love attachment? When you...

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    ...Sir, to find the truth of this matter, one must not follow anybody. Philosophy means the love of truth, not the love of theories, not the love of speculations, not the love of beliefs, but the love of truth, and truth isn't yours or mine, and therefore you cannot follow anybody. When once you realise this basic fact that truth cannot be found...

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    ...in these problems, how deeply you want to go into them. Though some of you may have casual interest, or some of you may be serious, we ought to consider this question of death, whether it be for the young or for the old, death by accident, death by disease, death by old age, senility. Probably we are already senile when we are educated. No smiles!...

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    ...about it but actually you have never realised what death is - obviously not. So when you are looking at this question of death don't bring in your second-hand knowledge - because we are all of us are second-hand human beings, or third-hand, or umpteenth-hand. So can we look at this problem as though we did not know a thing about it? Then we can...

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    Is this the occasion to discuss that question of death? Oh, lord! You know it is one of the most complex problems that man has faced from the time he began, this question of death, survival after death, and this utter sense of loneliness. To answer that question really very, very, very deeply, we must spend a lot of time on it, not just two...

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    And also we ought to talk over together the question of death, which is not a morbid question, which is not a useless question. Like love, like pain, sorrow, fear, death is part of our life. You may postpone it, you may say, I have ten years more to live but at the end of it there is death waiting. Again, all humanity fears death or they...

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    ...That means living with death all the time. Oh, you people don't know anything about this. Not fifty years later or frightened of death. I won't go into the question of death because that's too complicated. We have no time this morning. But death means not only biological, physical ending of the organism, but also to all the memories, the...

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    And if we have time - we have some more time - we ought to talk over together the question of death. It's not a morbid question, it's not an old man putting a question. But whether we are young or old, whether we'll die through an accident, through disease, this is a human problem. The problem that each one of us has to face. We are all going to...

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    ...is time to stop. So we will have to discuss the question of death and the immense significance of death, and the strength of death, which is as strong as love. And we will also have to talk over together, on Thursday morning, the day after tomorrow morning, what is religion, and what is meditation. The speaker puts death, religion and meditation...

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    ...The negation of life. That's right. So if we are enquiring into this question of death, fear must be completely non-existent in us. Then I can proceed. Then I can find out what death means. We have touched a little bit on reincarnation, the belief that is maintained throughout the East which has no reality in daily life. It is like going to church...

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    ...as violence is a fact of life, as hatred is a fact of life. And we must if we are at all reasonable, sane, we must look at this question of death in similar manner, not accept it, not just say it is inevitable or try to find out what lies beyond death, but to observe the nature of dying.

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    So only the truth of that beauty will be found when you have completely dropped everything that is mechanical. Have we time to go into this question of death now? We have talked for fifty minutes. Shall we go into it now?

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    ...we come to something. I don't know if I have time to go into it. We will. This question of death. Please bear in mind that if you don't understand relationship, if there is no love in your heart, compassion, then you will never understand what death is. They all go together, they are not separate. If I have not resolved totally the problem of...

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    And, there is the question of death. It is strange, is it not, that we have divided life into living, the daily living, love something apart and death something totally apart. All three something unrelated. Now, what is death? You know, this is really a very important question because what is it that dies? What is it that is so frightened of...

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    ...to die. Not what is after death, that's rather a silly question. What is after death is what you are now. That's not a very satisfactory answer. And this question of death, we avoid it scrupulously. And when we have to face it we have a thousand explanations - whether there is life after death, or you are by some mysterious process resurrected and...

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    And so we should together go into this question of death. What is it that dies? And what is it that lives? Both of them go together. When you use the word 'death', dying, it means that you have also lived. The two cannot be separated. That is a basic truth, that it cannot be separated, as you cannot possibly separate relationship as though by...

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    ...not only for the one that I have lost, but also I shed tears for others. There is not only personal sorrow, but there is the sorrow of the world, sorrow of that man walking in the street who will never, never, ride in an aeroplane, who will never become a minister. Don't laugh. You don't know what a torture all this is. That poor man, one meal a...

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    ...love; a mind and a heart that is always aching in loneliness cannot have compassion with its extraordinary intelligence. So together let's enquire if it is possible to end not only our personal sorrow but the sorrow of mankind.

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    ...or even feel this immense sorrow that is in the world. They are so concerned with their own personal sorrow, they overlook the sorrow that a poor man in a little village in India, or in China or in the Eastern world, where they never possibly have a full meal, clean clothes, comfortable bed. And there is this sorrow of thousands of people being...

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    ...the question is: can the content be emptied? Can sorrow be ended? Not only your personal sorrow but the sorrow accumulated through millennia of mankind. The personal sorrow, I mean the immediate sorrow - I have lost a son, I have lost this, or, you know, the tears, the despair, which is momentary. But there is this vast sorrow of mankind which has...

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    ...the fears, hidden and open, all the pursuits of pleasure, sexual and otherwise. And find out for ourselves what love is. And understand the full significance of not only personal sorrow but also the sorrow of mankind. And also is it possible to understand the final event of our life which is death? All that is our living. And if we are not clear...

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    Sorrow is not only your sorrow, your personal sorrow, but there is the sorrow of the world. The sorrow of those people who have been killed in the war, maimed, blinded, no arms and no legs, just the body, torso, and their relatives; how many mothers have cried, sisters, wives, lovers and so on. Don't you know all this? Or are you only concerned...

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    ...killing thousands of people. Humanity has suffered. And we are still pursuing that path of war that has brought about tremendous sorrow for mankind. Right? And we have our own personal sorrow. Sorrow is the same whether it is yours or mine. I like to identify myself with my sorrow, and you like to identify yourself with your sorrow. But sorrow of...

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    ...end, because if it doesn't end there is no love, you cannot have a good society, there can be no goodness. So one must find out, not only one's own personal sorrow, whether it can end, but also not to contribute to the vast collective sorrow. Please, sir, this is very, very serious, it's not a thing you play with, it's not a thing you argue and...

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    So there is personal sorrow and the vast cloud of sorrow of mankind. Sorrow is not something romantic, sentimental, illogical, it is there. My son dies and it has shattered one's life. And we have lived with this sorrow from time measureless. And apparently one has not resolved this problem. When one suffers one seeks consolation, which is an...

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    ...we are asking if sorrow can ever end. Not only personal sorrow, but also the sorrow of all mankind. Sorrow is sorrow, it is not yours or mine. The sorrow that has been created through these five thousand years of war. The sorrow that human beings are preparing for wars. The sorrow of endless division between people, as the Catholics, the...

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    ...And the eastern world has various logical and illogical explanations. But man remains in sorrow, not only personal sorrow but also the immense collective sorrow - the sorrow of wars, what is going on in Vietnam, thousands are being killed, children are being burnt. Not only in Vietnam but also during the last war millions were killed in Russia...

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    K: No, sir, no, no, no, sorry. I said, any inducement, in any form, subtle or obvious, I would consider doesn't bring about the depth of great silence. I would consider it's all superficial. I may be wrong. We're enquiring.

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    ...go on from there? Please, don't accept the description, not the words, but see the truth of this thing. As you see the fact of this microphone, see that thing. That 'me' has a name, a form. The 'me' has a label, called 'K' or 'John' and it has its form, it identifies with the body, with the face, with the whole business. So there is the...

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    K: Wait, wait. You said, you are what you are. What are you? Not only you, everybody: what are you? Your name, your form, the way you look: go on, I am telling you, tell me. (Laughs)

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    ...The idea of the body, of course, of course. I said the name and the form. Right? In Sanskrit it has got different names - I won't go into all that. So the 'I' is the name, the form, the biological structure of the form, the psychological content. All that is the 'me'. And that 'me' is the image. So when you say something to me which is unpleasant...

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    K: Dependence, same thing. Most people here are dependent on you. And what are you going to do about it. I can't do anything about it, but you can do a lot about it. Because I abhor, to me authority in any form in this field is poisonous, therefore I won't go near it.

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    K: Change, mutate. You can't change one form into another form. See that you are actually, the truth, that you are the rest of mankind. Sir, when you see that, feel it in your - if I may use the word - guts, in your blood, then your whole activity, your whole attitude, your whole way of living changes.

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    So fear in any form, both physiological as well as psychological, distorts clarity and therefore a person that is afraid in any form has no compassion. We will go into the whole question of compassion later, much later. But let's take all this together.

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    ...there is a Jew, Arab, Hindu, why this division - the Catholic, non-Catholic and all the rest of it? Obviously, it is so simple. It is so simple you won't see it. The form - right? - the form of your face, your body, then the name - look at what takes place - the name, with the name the associations, so immediately you have a name, a word,...

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    ...You understand? This is a very important question. And we have gone into it very deeply, if you have gone with it, shared it together. We said, we are name, form and psychological content - you follow? - all that. Memories, really: I remember my name, I identify the name with the form, and the name and the form carry on to the psychological thing,...

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    ...foundation, no strong lasting building behind that scaffold. Is it that we in our daily life imagine we are something and pursue that imagination? Or accept some tradition and live with that tradition? Or we are very good at talking, spilling out words, and that acts as a screen to the understanding of oneself, and living with...

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    Because if you follow tradition one can see at certain levels it has value, and at other levels it has no value at all. Good manners, politeness, consideration, thoughtfulness, the alertness of the mind that's watching, which can gradually become a tradition, and the pattern having been set the mind then just repeats it, gets up, opens the door,...

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    ...All these young people going to these gurus, shaving their head, dressing in Indian dress, dancing in the streets. Fantastic things they are doing! All on a tradition which is dead. All tradition is dead. You follow? And when you see that you say, my god, what has happened? So I go back and ask, why do we accept? Why are we influenced by these...

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    ...god? How do you know he exists? You have been told by your parents, by your books, by your society that there is god, and if you are living in communist Russia where the tradition says, don't believe in god, there is no such thing; there you are educated not to believe and here you are educated to believe. Both are the same. That is part of your...

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    K: Perhaps if we could take the question: what place has tradition and culture in a religious life? Would you like to discuss that, would that be worthwhile? I think perhaps if we could go into that question and answer deeply that enquiry perhaps we could include all the other questions in it. May we do that? Yes, sir?

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    JK: You see how do you - I have often thought about it - how do you convey to all this rather subtle and very complex issue, how do you convey all this to a person who is steeped in tradition, who is conditioned and won't even take time to listen, to consider?

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    ...a system? Why do you and I want a system - inwardly, first? - and then we'll discuss the outward systems. Why do you want a system - system being a tradition, a discipline, a habit, a groove in which the mind follows along that groove - why? If we discard one set of grooves then we follow another. And we said, peace or love or beauty is not...

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    K: That may be our tradition, that may be our education, that may be we have been told from childhood that is different from you, you are different from me.

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    Then mechanical action is, accepting tradition and following tradition. One of the aspects of that tradition is acceptance and obedience: to government, to priests, you know, obedience. And the mechanical part of the brain is following consciously or unconsciously a line set by thought as the goal and purpose. All that and more is mechanical. And...

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    ...I'll show you, sir. I am conditioned - if I am - as a Hindu - right? - as an Indian. And you are conditioned as a Christian - if you are, it doesn't matter - and I would go into my conditioning, how tradition, superstition, the handing down, etc., etc., I would go into it very, very carefully. And I would help you to go into it very, very...

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    The question was put: can tradition, culture co-exist with a religious life? We went into that very carefully. We said, culture, tradition, cannot possibly exist with a religious mind. If one is to find out what is truly a religious life one must abandon totally tradition, totally any form of culture as it is understood. Which means a free mind, a...

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    K: The tradition, the tendency - be careful, you are British, behave like a British. Be proud of your tradition. You had a tremendous empire, now you are reduced but you are still remember.

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    K: Therefore, sir, what does that mean, to be in the now? It cannot be mechanical. It cannot be burdened with all the weight of knowledge, as tradition. It means a mind that is really profoundly free of fear. That's freedom, isn't it?

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    K: Sir, you asked a question: can tradition and culture exist or co-exist with a religious life? And we said very carefully tradition - apply it, sir, find out - tradition means handing down certain authoritarian statements, certain values, rituals, principles, conclusions, and so on. That's what tradition means. And that word also means betrayal,...

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    ...conflict. And you may say that is the way of life. If you accept that is the way of life, that is your business. That is your pleasure. That is what your brain, tradition, habit tells you, that is the inevitable. But when you see the absurdity of such acceptance then you are bound to ask this question. All this travail is myself. I am the enemy,...

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    So having looked at the world - not at the details, there are too many details, the sorrow, the suffering, the brutality, the violence, the communities that are trying to establish a way of life according to a certain pattern, the economic war as well as the actual bloody war, the politicians with their deception and their corruption and all the rest of it, if you can put away all that, then we can look at ourselves.

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    ...not just an hour separated from the rest of one's life, but life is serious and if one wants to be serious it is up to all of us. The world demands such a group of beings who are tremendously serious. In that seriousness there is humour too. So a small group can affect the whole world, as one human being can affect the whole world. So this whole...

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    Look at the world objectively, not as an Indian or as a Muslim or a Parsi or a Pakistani and a Hindu, which are all nationalistic divisions that have no value at all, except for the politicians and the people who want to corrupt the world. To look at this world in which we live, the beauty of the earth, the beauty of a sunset, with the fleeing...

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    Can you, living in this world with all the beastliness of it, the world that man has made, which thought has made - the dictatorship, the totalitarian authority, the destruction of human minds, destruction of the earth, the animals - everything he touches he destroys, including his wife and husband - now can you live in this world completely without time?

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    K: Therefore what does that mean? Go into it - that's what I'm coming to. If you are that in a world, what will you do, what is your movement?

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    So to understand actually 'what is' one has to be rid of all these extraneous beliefs and fears, and hopes, and be able to look actually, not theoretically, not abstractly, but actually look what is taking place in the world outside, with all the racial conflicts, with wars, the division between religions - the Catholic, the Protestant, the Hindu, the Muslim, all the divisions have created such havoc in the world.

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    ...You see - for god's sake, you don't listen to what I am saying, sir. Forgive me, you are not listening to what I am saying. You have had thousands of engineers all over the world, thousands and thousands. Right? Great business people, great scientists, and rather unfortunate politicians all over the world - right? - they have not brought about...

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    ...it relate that discovery to all the activities of one's life. One may be interested, deeply concerned, with the world as it is - with the violence, the appalling chaos, the political division, violence, and the corruption which is absolute death, not only outwardly but also inwardly. In discovering for ourselves our major, deep interest we shall...

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    So we are saying, observing all this, this total chaos in the world, practical anarchy, where even the pope has to be protected when he leaves the Vatican, it is all becoming so silly and dangerous. Seeing all this, what is the right action for each one of us. Because we contribute to the chaos, there is no question about it, because we have...

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    K: Now why am I so 'me first.' What is this thing, I'm so concerned, me first and you the second, the world. You are the world, you're the second, me first. Why do I lay such tremendous emphasis on myself first. Go on, sir, answer this.

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    ...a religious mind is a very factual mind, it deals with facts. That is, facts being what is actually happening, with the world outside, and the world inside. The world outside is the expression of the world inside, there is no division between the outer and the inner - that is too long to go into. So a religious life is a life of order, diligence,...

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    In this part of the world you may not have wars, but you are preparing for war. And in this world there are a great many institutions, foundations, organisations, little groups with their particular leaders; the gurus with their absurdities; each person or each group, each community is separating itself from others. This is what is happening all...

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    ...I must understand this enormous question of thought. Can thought be totally silent to find out if there is another world at all? I'm not going to answer your question whether there is another world at all because that means you will abstract, that will become an abstraction and therefore unreal. It will be another of your ideas. So, you have to...

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    May we go on with what we were talking about the last time that we met here? We were saying: why do human beings, right throughout the world, live in this most extraordinary, conflicting, sorrowful life? We asked that question and we went into it fairly thoroughly.

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    ...because per se, for itself, for its own beauty, for its own strength and love and compassion, and all that. And if we do, perhaps half a dozen or a dozen people in the world, surely it will affect the whole of consciousness of mankind. As Napoleon affected the whole of the world, and so on, and the religious teachers, the real religious teachers -...

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    So in listening here this morning, you might say, well, I have really understood it, perhaps verbally, intellectually, I see the whole logic, and the reason and the practicality of it. But when you go outside, are you going to fall into the trap of the old tradition? If you do, then you haven't listened at all.

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    ...we think along those grooves; if you are committed to a particular religion, an ideological structure, again your thinking is conditioned by that. So we begin to lose the capacity to reason. Reason implies a certain quality of scepticism, doubt, not accepting anything, either from the psychologists, professors, or from the sacred books - there are...

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    ...flowering of goodness can only take place when there is no time. I wonder if you understand this. Bene? At least, please, even grasp intellectually, see the reason, the logic of it, and then let the logic end and observe what is going on. You follow what I am saying? Don't - I mean if I may point out - don't let reason function all the time,...

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    ...when there is no self, when there is utter denial of selfishness. So is that the reason why human beings throughout the world we are becoming more and more selfish, more and more self-centred, more and more this sense of individual achievement, individual salvation? When that is emphasised selfishness becomes all important, rationalised,...

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    ...is lack of order, then what is order. How can a mind, brain, which is so disorderly find out what is order? Why don't we be a little bit logical, rational - though reason, logic are limited, you must begin with that and then go beyond it. But if you say order is this, then it becomes military - right? It becomes a tremendous discipline - agree?...

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    ...a mind in conflict must inevitably be distorted, and therefore it cannot possibly see clearly what is truth. This is logic, reason, and we are afraid to exercise reason, logic, because we think logic, reason is something not spiritual. But if you do not know how to reason clearly, objectively, impersonally, healthily, you cannot possibly have a...

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    K: Therefore understanding has nothing to do with thought. You may reason, which is the process of thinking, logic and reason, till you say, 'I don't understand it', then you become silent, and then you say, 'By Jove, I see it, I understand it.' That understanding is not the result of thought.

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    Reason has its limitation. Reason is to observe objectively, impersonally the whole phenomenon of our religious organisations and structure with their gurus, priests and images created by the hand or by the mind. One is afraid to use reason but you do use reason: when you go to the office, when you build an engine, when you produce technologically...

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    K: We are coming to that, sir. First look at the reason. Just look at it. And then we'll come to the root of it. We have to use our minds, we have got to use our reason and go beyond reason. We can't just say reason doesn't count.

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    K: Yes, madame. Look, I've just looked at a first-class dictionary, (laughs) and it says the intellect is the capacity to reason, capacity to think clearly, to understand, to grasp. So thought is in operation. When you reason, thought is in operation.

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    To go into it one must exercise reason. You exercise reason when you are earning a livelihood, when you have to do some job, when you have to carry out a certain task. Reason is the capacity to think sanely and logically, to think clearly, coherently.

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    K: What is the reason for disorder. That is what I am asking. What is the reason, the source, the essence of disorder? Just a minute, don't quote anybody, including myself. Just a minute, sir. Because if you do you are just answering, saying something which others have said. So throw out what others have said, including this person. Don't belong...

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    ...of every kind, old age, death, sex - you know the whole invasion of problems our brain is so used to. Does one expect, if one may ask seriously, for someone to tell how to live, how to examine, what to do, is that the reason you are here? Or is it that one wants to see what one is actually as we are sitting here, and examine that very closely and...

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    K: My pleasure, which lasts for a few days, and then I pursue it, and then I cry if I can't get it, and I'm flattered if I get rewarded, so it's part of that vast river.

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    And therefore pleasure is remembrance. I don't know if you follow all this? At the moment when you see the beauty of a hill, with the snow, with the clear blue sky, at that moment there is no pleasure, there is only that immensity, that grandeur, that majesty; later on pleasure begins when you want it to be repeated, which means the remembrance,...

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    K: Danger. So, fear, pleasure, and discipline, you follow sir. Discipline means to learn; I am learning about pleasure. The mind is learning about pleasure. Learning brings its own order.

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    Now is love pleasure? It becomes a little more difficult. Is love fulfilment? Sir, look, one has to go into this rather deeply if you really want to be or have a mind that has love. You have to go into it very, very deeply. We are asking: is pleasure, gratification, fulfilment, love? We went into it the other day that the demand for pleasure is...

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    K: No, but pleasure is also painful, but I'll overcome it in order to have more pleasure. Haven't you noticed this in your life? How we want pleasure?

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    K: That's our majority of people here, that's our position. I've lived 40, 50, 80 or 20 years - individual: my pleasure, my fears, my possession, my etc., is so embedded in me that I refuse to listen to you. Or I listen to you and say, 'Please, I don't understand what you're talking about.'

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    And also - if you say it is not possible or it is possible, you have stopped investigating. What is important in this enquiry is that one must have a great deal of doubt, scepticism. Never accepting anything at its face value or according to your pleasure or gratification. Life is much too serious.

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    ...not, or if it is, what are we going to do? You can't discard pleasure, you can't say like the monks did of former days, 'I won't have pleasure, and in that place of having pleasure I'll put the image which I have created by my mind in its place', whether it is Jesus or Krishna or Buddha - you follow? Oh wake up! For god's sake wake...

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    Pleasure is not compassion. Right? Pleasure is not love. But perhaps if there is this mutation compassion is stronger than pleasure. I don't know if I am making So pleasure has no place in the compassion.

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    So what is pleasure? Is pleasure love? Strange, you become silent, don't you? Is pleasure the fullness of love? We are going to find out what love is, enquire. And to go into that word and to go beyond that word one must first find out what pleasure is, on which our whole psychological structure, values, ethical, moral and so on is based. What is...

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    ...I live, through magazines, posters, propaganda, the priests - it is doing that all the time, thought is being influenced. And also thought says, 'I wish I had more of that pleasure', 'I want to become the chief minister'. The same principle - you follow? - I and the society encouraging each other. Right? So what shall I do? How shall I deal with...

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    K: Of seeking satisfaction, pleasure and all that. I say, 'All right, I won't, I see what I am doing' - so I put that aside too. No pleasure, no reward, no punishment in listening but there is only pure observation.

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    ...The seeing of it is the same, sir. So thought breeds fear and pleasure, sustains it, gives it a continuity. This is clear, isn't it? And if I can't have my pleasure I get upset, I get neurotic. And I want to avoid, the observer wants to avoid fear. Right? Wants pleasure and avoid fear. And the observer is the result of all thinking. Obviously. So...

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    ...No, no, no, this is not a schoolboys' debate, sir. This is a tremendous question which is facing the whole of mankind, not your particular description of it or denial of it, we are trying to find out what pleasure is. Is love and pleasure inevitable and go together? So to find that out, one must freely, with care, with intelligence, examine what...

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    Pleasure is the root. Pleasure. I will go slowly. There is pleasure, enjoyment and joy, and beyond joy there is ecstasy. And what is pleasure and why do human beings, right throughout the world, pursue pleasure - pleasure sexually, pleasure in having a position, status, pleasure in seeking enlightenment, following a guru, following a system and...

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    We have filled our minds with all kinds of ideas of what we are - you are noble, ignoble, we are divine, we are experts - you know - filled ourselves. And this acceptance of what we are is the result of the movement of thought. Right? I will have to go into this again.

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    K: But after, all that you are thinking, you are the result of the culture, the climate, the food, the environment, the economic conditions, your grandparents, you are the result of all that.

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    K: Yes, we are saying that, we are saying, you are the result of all that, so you have to do something about yourself, because you are that.

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    ...to read a single book about philosophy, psychology because everything is in you as a human being if you know how to look at yourself. Because after you are the result, your mind is the result of the collective. You are not individuals, are you? Individuality, the word means indivisible, an entity, a human being who is not fragmented, broken up,...

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    K: Mechanically. And become lazy, lethargic, don't care - you follow? So have you learnt the consequences, the result of separating yourself from fear?

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    ...not a deliberate act. You know - we have not gone into all this, you see. Conscious meditation, taking a posture, certain posture, breathing carefully, concentrating, controlling, exercising one's will and determination, all that is self-centred movement to achieve a result. Right sir? And the result is already predetermined. Peace, whatever it...

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    Now I realise that I am confused, and it is not the fault or the result of any outward confusion. It is a fact. Now what am I to do? Right? Now see how we have progressed, how we have gone into this: what am I to do. I know I am confused, what am I to do?

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    K: Are you saying, sir, to make it brief, that you are the result of the traditions, troubles, the churches and all the rest of it over Europe, and you are the result of all that?

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    So my question is: first, can this mind, which is the result of this civilisation and this culture, and therefore has very little meaning, can the mind become aware of it choicelessly, observe? And yet I have to live here, I have to do things every day. How is this possible? You are following all this? First of all we must be very clear that the...

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    ...to observe without the 'me' interfering with the observation. The 'me' that is the result of the past, the result of all our traditions, the result of our education, the result of our social, environmental, economic influence and so on - this 'me' that interferes with the observation. Now is it possible to totally eliminate in this observation...

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    ...the culture, the economic condition, the cultural education, all that, are you different from the rest of the group? Are you? Are we? Each one of us? Or are we the result of all that? You understand? Am I the result of all of India, of Europe, of America, because one has lived in these parts for most of one's life, am I the result of all that? You...

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    ...I think about something and I want to communicate it to you. Either we are both telepathically in communication, which is dangerous, misleading, unless we are both at the same level, with the same interest, with the same energy - so there is a non-verbal communication - right? - a gesture, a look, and a verbal communication. But both are involved...

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    ...is, you say something to me and I listen so completely that there is communication between us totally. There is not only verbal communication but also non-verbal communication - either it is a gesture, a look, a wave of the hand and so on. There is verbal communication and non-verbal communication. In listening both are necessary. The...

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    ...explanations, but we are sharing together the actuality, what is implied in all this - sharing. Therefore we must not only hear and have the meaning of the words, but also there must be a verbal communication, as well as non-verbal communication. Communication means thinking together, sharing together, building together, understanding together....

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    ...is a communication which is non-verbal. The non-verbal communication is much more difficult, that requires a mind that is not caught in words, in the trap of expressions and explanations but a mind that can meet directly, face 'what is' instantly, such a mind has no need for words and explanations. But unfortunately we haven't got such minds. A...

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    Perhaps it would be good if we could establish between ourselves, between the speaker and you, a communication which is not only verbal, but also a non-verbal communication. The words are never the thing. The description is never the described. So we are not only communicating with each other at the verbal level, that is, at the descriptive level,...

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    ...sharing the thing. So, in communication there is not only a verbal communication, but there is a non-verbal communication, really which comes into being, or which happens when one has the art of really listening to somebody, in which there is no acceptance, no denial, or comparison, or judgement, just the act of listening.

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    ...- thinking about the problem together, partaking, building, doing things together, all that is contained in that word, 'communication'. Now we know there is a verbal communication and non-verbal communication. The verbal communication may also be very deceptive, misunderstood, and the non-verbal communication is much more difficult, much more...

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    ...this evening rather complex problems, please don't make it more complex for yourself by trying merely to understand the words. Words are necessary for communication, but there is also a non-verbal communication. But the non-verbal communication requires the deeper layers of the mind quickened, sharpened, challenged so that it is capable of...

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    K: If you are not interested in what is being said, well, you will think of something else and communication stops. So there is a verbal communication and a non-verbal communication. They are both operating at the same time.

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    ...the fear of death. This is the common problem of humanity, not only problems of an individual but of humanity, of which you are. Right? That is, the world, psychological world is you and you are that world. You are not different. If I may point out most respectfully, you are not different from the American, Russian, Chinese, European or anybody,...

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    ...The psychological structure is the characteristics of the ego, the 'me', the 'I'. The 'I' is fear, anxiety, depression, violence, cruelty, the ideals of being non-violent, all that is in the psychological world, the world inside you, inside your skin as it were. That is the world in which we live which dominates the external. Those idealists,...

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    ...is natural, it is there, it is a fact: you are tall, another is short, one is very, very clever, the other is not, and so on. But go beyond that, or go below that, which is in the psychological world. In the psychological world we all share the same sorrow, sorrow is common to all of us. You may have pleasure in one way but it is still pleasure....

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    So similarly, we are saying, order can only come into being when thought, which is necessary in certain areas, has no place in the psychological world. And therefore in that world, that world itself is in order when thought is absent. Are we meeting each other?

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    ...Both of them running together. Bien? Is that possible? The speaker thinks that is the only right kind of education. Not just the one kind of education, but to understand the other side - which is the psychological world. You are mankind, you are the history of man. You are the story of mankind, obviously, because you have suffered, you have gone...

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    So as the computer and the robot are taking over the activities of thought we have only these two choices: either pursuing pleasure, entertainment, or entering into the whole psychological world and see how far, how deeply one can go into it. So, if we can take the journey together, we will walk together into the world which are the senses,...

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    ...you, if one may point out, you are facing all this. Don't disregard all this because the psychological world, the inner world, what you are inwardly, overcomes whatever social structure, governments are established - always overcomes all that. As you see it in Russia, they started out by having no government, no army, no division, no nationality;...

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    K: We are living both in the psychological world and in the physical world. The psychological world dominates the physical world. The physical world doesn't dominate the psychological world. You can have all the money, all the food, all the cars, everything, but you may be unhappy because your husband or wife has run away, you know, all the rest...

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    And if it can go in one direction with such extraordinary vigour, extraordinary energy that has been put into the technological world, if it can go in the other direction, that is not in the direction of amusement, entertainment, but in the world of the psyche, the psychological world, then it has an extraordinary infinite capacity, both outwardly, that is the technological world, and the inward, the psychological world.

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    K: No, please you have asked a question Ah, you're going on, you don't you've asked a very good question, you don't stop there, you are moving. What place has knowledge in the psychological world? Right? Now may I ask you something? Is remembrance of your wife, or your husband or your girl, which is in the psychological field, is that love?

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    K: desperate hope, desire for some kind of solace? I mean the Maitreya Bodhisattva is the idea that He has relinquished the ultimate enlightenment, and is waiting till all humanity, or part of humanity... that's (laughter)

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    ...of sexual relationship and this and that? If you are concerned with the whole. You understand? - with the whole of humanity, not your neighbour or your wife, with the whole of humanity, then when you see the whole then you can put the detail in order. But without the perception of the whole you cannot put the detail in order. Right? That is why...

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    ...activity only makes it more narrow, more limited and therefore it becomes more of a prison. Whereas if we could during these talks and dialogues, or questions and answers, if we could relate ourselves to the whole of humankind, to the whole of humanity. We are part of that humanity. Over in the east they suffer just as much as you do, they have...

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    K: Then in studying yourself you are studying humanity. Right? You are studying humanity. Will you do that? And then that becomes a side issue.

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    The politicians are thinking in terms of tribalism, they have not the global outlook, or the concern with the whole of humanity. They are concerned about their own insular party, their own ideologies and theories. They are not concerned with humanity. Nor are the scientists, they are helping to create the bomb, or have helped to create it, and...

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    K: desperate hope, desire for some kind of solace? I mean the Maitreya Bodhisattva is the idea that He has relinquished the ultimate enlightenment, and is waiting till all humanity, or part of humanity... that's (laughter)

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    K: No, that would be cruel. But a man who says, my son is dead, what is it all about, death is common to all humanity, why do we... A man who is sensitive, asking, enquiring, he is awake, he wants to find an answer to all this.

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    ...Which is me. It doesn't matter whether you say, I see myself as humanity, then humanity is me. I am not separate from humanity, I don't say, I am an elite, I am this; I am like the rest of the gang. Not the mafiosa but the ordinary gang. So I see the world as myself, which is the whole. That's simple sir - no, not simple, it is - would that be...

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    ...He wants some comfort, hope, God, a father figure, or a mother figure, whatever you like. So your consciousness is shared by all of us, by all of us, by all humanity, therefore you are humanity, not some separate British, French - for God's sake! You understand all...

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    ...not with prejudice, opinions, but look at it. You suffer and so does the man in Russia. You are uncertain, so is the man in China. Right? So your consciousness is shared by all humanity, so you are humanity. Right? You are humanity, not Mr Smith, Mr Rao, or something like or other. If that is shown to you, not accepted but showing it logically,...

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    ...through constant repetition of the Mass and so on, so on. And to see the absurdity of it and wipe it out. Then you ask, is it possible to be a light, not only to yourself, because you are the humanity, therefore light to humanity. You follow? I wonder if you - right, sir? I don't think you capture...

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    K: (Laughs) No, sir. If you and I realise that thought is shared by all humanity, then there is no different thoughts. There is no you agreeing, I disagreeing. We will go into it another time.

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    ...there is no ending to the pattern. Right? What is the cause of all this, of human misery? That is, you are humanity - please see this - you are humanity, your brain has grown through a million years, it is not your brain, it is the common brain of man. Therefore you are the world, and the world is you. You are not Swiss, German, and all that...

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    K: No, go into it sir. Why as a human being, you or I or another, who is the essence of all humanity - right sir? - psychologically he is the essence of all humanity, therefore when you are aware of yourself you are representing the whole of mankind. And you or another has no compassion - why?

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    K: We said all that yesterday. We said yesterday: I am humanity. We went into about consciousness and all that. I am humanity. I am not different from the rest of you; I am the whole of mankind. Right? We discussed that - or didn't we?

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    ...is order which is not put together by thought? See the beauty of the question first, sirs, you understand? Is there such order? The universe, the heavens, the stars, sun rising, sun setting, that is in total order. Nature is in total order, that nature which is the hills, the rivers, birds, tigers, you know, nature, the trees, that is in total...

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    ...see directly for ourselves that we live in disorder, and to hold it as a precious jewel, look at it. Then out of that clear perception, order comes. And when there is total order, there is no order. I don't think you understand this, so I will leave it there for the moment. Because when you negate totally disorder - totally, with the whole mind...

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    We are asking: how is the mind to have order, total order, psychosomatically, both physiologically as well as psychologically, without control, without the accepted meaning of that word 'discipline', and to be completely free, without any sense of conformity and imitation? Are we going along together? Right. Seeing the problem, which is very...

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    ...desires, purposes, intentions. And this whole quality of mind, how is it to have total order, the psychosomatic order, without conformity, without the enforcement of a discipline thought up by the mind, and a mind that can observe very clearly, logically, sanely, and function totally, all round, not fragmentarily? See our difficulty first, what is...

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    K: So, as we said, to move away from that most people are afraid, which is to have total order. Alone, as he pointed out - all one. Therefore there is no fragmentation, when there is cosmos.

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    So we are now considering together what is order in our lives, and order outside in the world. The order outside in the world can only come about if there is order in ourselves, in the whole structure of our being - complete, total order. So we are going to talk over together what is order.

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    ...what is order. Order is virtue. Order means freedom. So we have to enquire also into what is freedom. You understand what we have said, that where there is order in our life, total order, that order is virtue and that very order is freedom.

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    ...when it is completely secure. You can find that security in some kind of neurotic belief or neurotic activity or neurotic state. Or that security for the brain comes into being when there is total order in your life. And that total order can only take place when you have observed very closely the disorder in which you live both psychologically as...

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    ...it, remain with it, hold it, look at it. That is, to diligently bring all your energies to look at it, to look at the disorder. And when there is total perception of that disorder then there is total order. And that total order is complete...

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    K: They have political leaders, religious - you follow? - the whole thing is a chaos. So to move away from that into Cosmos, which is total order means not that I am alone, there is a total order which is not associated with disorder, chaos. That is alone.

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    ...but inwardly. You try to bring about order, but that which you try to bring about, which you call order, is within the area of disorder. So a mind has to have order, and total order is total freedom. I am going to go into this question of order. Please do listen, give your heart to this, because it's your life. First see actually, not...

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    ...of control. And therefore the brain chooses in that control a neurotic behaviour in which it finds security. You can question me afterwards. But we are saying there is total order, mathematical order. When you understand the nature of pleasure and fear, which is not the order of the dictator, of the few over the many, who suppress, destroy anybody...

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    So meditation is to understand the depth of time, and as we have laid the foundation from the very beginning of our talks, which is to deal with daily life, where there must be total order. Not disorder, we talked about it the other day. That is, you have to bring about order in your house, not only in the physical house, but the house in which...

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    ...be a social revolution, a new kind of order must come into the world. Right? And I must find out how to bring about that order. Is it a total order that would be order everywhere or only in a particular direction?

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    ...up as a Brahmin in India, and I say, 'I am that'. That is a deep-rooted prejudice, brought about historically, culturally and tradition says, 'I am that'. That is my conditioning. Is it possible for the mind to be aware of that conditioning? Just only that. No more. When it is aware of that conditioning, what takes...

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    ...I create an image about myself? I say I am a Christian, that is an image. I believe in the Saviour, in Christ, in all the rituals, you know, all that, why? Because that is my conditioning. Go to India and they say 'What are you talking about, Christ?' (Laughter) 'I have got my own gods, as good as yours, if not better'. So that is his...

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    ...We are saying, that the brain is conditioned, at least some of it. That conditioning is brought about through experience. That conditioning is knowledge. And that conditioning is memory and experience, knowledge, memory are limited, and so thought is limited. Now, we have been functioning within the area of thought. And to discover something new...

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    That conditioning is knowledge. Right? Please, I am talking; it doesn't mean I am the only person talking. We are investigating together, and in this investigation you see technologically, scientifically, medically, you have advanced tremendously. But also you have destroyed the earth, you have killed thousand and thousands of people, for an idea,...

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    ...us. So we try to blame the environment, blame education, blame governments and so on, but we have made all this environment. So we are responsible for it. So we must understand our conditioning. Our conditioning is to be British, to be French, to be a Sikh. Right, sirs? To belong to some guru. That is our conditioning. Can you, can one observe...

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    Then do I say, 'Yes, I am conditioned, it is terrible, and I must uncondition myself'? Then you begin the conflict. Right? The 'I' then becomes part the 'I' thinks it is separate but it is part of that conditioning. So what takes place when you see that?

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    ...sense of that word. What is there when I observe myself - the conditioning, the responses of that conditioning, the reactions to various pressures, influences, strains, and seeing this constant pressure externally and inwardly, the strain of it, which becomes more and more, introducing a greater factor of conflict - right? - and is it possible to...

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    ...Sir, just listen. Can you be free of motive? Begin with that, knowing a motive is born out of your conditioning. That conditioning dictates what kind of motive you have. That conditioning has come into being right from the time we are born, from the past, millennia after millennia. It isn't just a newly conditioned mind, it is the result of...

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    K: Find out, sir, go into it, sir. If thought is limited, whatever it does brings about conditioning. When I say, 'I must be brotherly', it is part of the conditioning. So whatever it does is limited and therefore conditioning. Now is intelligence the product of thought?

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    So we act only according to our conditioning. So, wait, sir, we act only according to our conditioning. But I'm questioning all conditioning. There with the snake I see how the mind has been conditioned, through centuries of experience it has been said, snakes are dangerous. And I say, 'My god, I must be careful, I mustn't go near it' - tiger,...

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    ...young or the old - they're conditioned. Please listen to this. They are conditioned according to the culture they live in. They can react to that culture and form their own conditioning but it's still conditioning, isn't it? Now from that conditioning there comes character, there comes temperament, which is character, and according to that...

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    K: Not what I like, sir. Not what I like - please, (laughter) it isn't a game of what you and I like. The mind becomes aware that it is a Christian, a Communist, a Hindu, and so on. That is its conditioning. In becoming aware of that conditioning what takes place?

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    So. Does freedom mean doing what you want to do? And can you do what you want to do? And what is it you want to do? Express your conditioning freely? (Laughter) Go into it, sir, go into it, you play with all this.

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    So, to understand this conditioning - it is clear what we mean by that word 'conditioning' - you are conditioned as a Christian, you are being brought up in a particular culture, a culture that accepts war, that pursues a particular pattern of existence and so on - that is your conditioning, as they are conditioned in India by their culture, by their religion and superstition, by their way of life.

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    K: No, I am sticking to the conditioning, not beyond. You can only find out what is beyond when you are free from one's conditioning. So if one realises that, that all human beings go through this extraordinary misery, confusion, anxiety, sorrow, right through the world. You understand, sir? - right through the world, not you go through it, but...

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    ...inwardly, every action becomes distorted; there is no meticulous clear observation. So it becomes very important to understand this question of fear. So we are asking; what is the root of fear? Not only the fear of death - in this country you don't talk about death. It is there but you don't talk about it, you don't look at it, you don't want to...

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    ...something from him, so you worship him, and in the worship there is fear. So there are multiple forms of fear. We are not taking one particular form. We are asking, what is the root of fear? If I know what if we can discover what the root of fear, then the whole tree is dead. You understand? But if I am concerned with my particular little fear of...

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    ...of not being able to acquire enough food - the whole biological, physiological fears? Then there are all the psychological fears, and can these fears be eliminated one by one, or can the mind cut at the very root of fear so that it is dead, gone, finished? So that is what we are going to discuss this...

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    ...we are asking if it is at all possible to be free of fear, absolutely. Psychologically, inwardly, what is the root of fear? What does fear mean? Fear of something that has given you pain, fear of what might happen. That is, the past or what might happen in the future. Right? Not what might happen now because now there is no fear. But you can see...

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    ...making abstractions of a fact. Those abstractions become ideals, ideas, concepts, conclusions; all verbal. And then I ask myself, how am I to carry out these ideals, these ideas, these concepts, that time and thought are the root of fear. You've understood? I have made an abstraction of what you have told me: time and thought are the root of fear;...

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    ...business. But we are not concerned with the trimming of the tree of fear but rather to uncover the root of fear so that when you see the root of it and have a depth of understanding of the root then if you have such an understanding, and this is an insight, then fear disappears completely, you are no longer afraid psychologically. Physically it is...

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    ...invented by man, by thought. We will go into that when we talk about it a little later on, about religion.) Freedom from attachment. So let us examine together what is the cause of fear, what is the root of fear. This examination is not merely intellectual, logical, rational, sane; it is not an analysis; it is perception. When you perceive...

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    ...we are going to look into fear. What is the root of fear? The root of fear is time. Do look at it carefully, don't accept what I am saying. The root of fear, we are saying, is time. Look: one has had pain last week, physical pain, and you don't want it to occur again and you are afraid it might happen. Right? So the remembrance of pain which you...

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    So we are enquiring what is the root of fear, not a particular fear but the root of all fear. The root of fear is time. What I will be, what I have been, what I might not be. Time is the past, the present and the future. The past modifying itself in the present and continuing in the future. Fear of something that has happened psychologically or...

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    ...out. Are you free of fear? Fear of public opinion, fear of your parents, fear of your father, your husband, wife, fear of so many things. Which is, will you trim the tree of fear, or go to the very root of fear? Fear of not following your guru. You understand? Fear of your gods, fear of not doing the right thing, becoming respectable. You...

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    ...fear. So is there a central factor of fear, which, when you have an insight into, when you understand - and I am using the word 'understand' not intellectually, verbally, but totally - when you understand the root of fear then it is over, then you don't have to analyse, trim the branches, you are then cutting at the very root of it. You have...

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    ...find out the root of it, the cause of it? Right? Which do you want? The various branches of fear, or the very hidden root, hidden nature of fear? You understand? What is the root of fear? Look at your - the speaker is asking you this question, and if you will kindly be honest this evening - you can be dishonest afterwards because that's your...

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    What is the root of fear? Isn't it time and thought? That is, I am a clerk, I may never become a manager. I am a disciple, I can never become a guru if I want to be. I am ignorant - in the deep sense of that word, not ignorance of the books, I am not talking about that - deep ignorance, which is not knowing myself wholly. That is ignorance - the...

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    So we are asking what is the root of fear, and whether that is possible, in the discovering of it, whether it can end, totally, completely. Not partially, not it ends sometimes and begins again. Which means the brain - the speaker is not a specialist in the brain, but he has observed very carefully not only in himself but in the activities of...

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    Will you take one fear at a time - fear of loneliness, fear of death, fear of not having a job, fear of that your wife or girlfriend may turn away from you - one by one; or the root of fear? You understand my question? Which is it that you want to do? - the whole fear or the varying expressions of fear. Well, sirs? If you tackle the root of fear -...

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    ...I am just a clerk in a big office, in a corporation and gradually I work up. If I am good, capable, I become the manager. From the manager I step up more and more till I become the executive and the president. I have become through time to be the president. This is the physical process. Now we extend the same movement into the psychological realm....

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    K: Are you saying, the questioner asks, that throughout life one mustn't have any conclusion. You will find out. Oh lord. Please, you are all you are not following step by step, you're going thinking, that's the difficulty when we're talking with so many people.

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    ...another, whatever they may say, however popular they are, whatever circus they put one has to be free from all the authority, fear and so on. And what is important is, the first step is the last step. I hope you understand that. The first step that one takes is really the last...

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    K: Yes, sir, I understand your question, sir, but we'll come to that presently. For the love of god, stick to one thing, step by step into it.

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    ...Yes, sir. Look: I am lonely. Let's follow slowly, step by step. I'm lonely. Realising the terror of it, the feeling of complete lack of relationship with anything, I'm afraid of it. So I run away from it. I suppress it, control it, all kinds of things I do. And the loneliness still remains. Because then I ask myself, 'What shall I do about this?'...

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    ...what I mean? So you have to enquire into your background. So unless - that is what I am trying to ask - unless you trace it out very carefully, step by step, so that you know what your actions are, what your feelings are, why you think this way, what your prejudice is - you follow? - you begin to learn all about yourself. And then you find that by...

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    So in our next talks and the rest of it, we are going to go step by step into the freeing of the mind from all the conditioning, from all the accumulation of ages which has corrupted it.

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    K: Just Go step by step, sir. First step is that one desires, one wants to change. That is a fairly intelligent demand, if one is at all aware. Then one asks what do we mean by change? Generally implied from the known, move in the direction of the unknown. I am using different words. I don't know what the unknown but I try to move towards it. But...

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    ...what am I to do with the 'me'? You understand? Now please follow this step by step. If you get tired, or if you are distracted, be distracted, but come back. So when there was division between me and attachment I could do something about it - right? Do you follow this? I could control it, I could say, 'No, I mustn't be', or suppress it, or do...

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    K: I understand, but let's go into it - don't say, I must do this, I must not do that - let us go into the whole question of fear and see if you can step by step, end it. As each step taken, it is ended.

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    ...It is suggested that we are seeking completeness. Go into it, sir, a little bit, step by step, go into it rather deeply. What is it we want? Happiness? Because most of us are discontented, dissatisfied with things as they are, both in our private life and in public life, and we want to bring about some kind of inward peace, tranquillity, a sense...

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    K: Now, which is it we're doing - please, that's why we want to go step by step into this. All right, let me do it for myself, talk about it.

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    K: We have explained everything carefully, step by step by step. What it does: self-centredness breeds isolation, conflict, wars, all the rest of it. We know the tremendous danger of it, which is lack of security, sense of deep, abiding loneliness, you know, we've described all that.

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    K: Is it fear, is it expansion of consciousness - whatever that may mean - is it a sense of insufficiency therefore I need you to make me feel sufficient? I am just asking, madam, step by step. Then what is it?

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    ...Wait, sir. First see (laughs) You are all first see the position we are in, actually, and then we can proceed step by step. I think I am conditioned, but I am not sure. So there is a division between the thinker who says, I am conditioned, and the actual realization that the mind is conditioned. That is, I can think I am hungry but actually I may...

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    K: After all that is the ground beyond which there is no other ground. That is the origin beyond which there is no other origin. (Pause)

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    K: That's just it. Therefore you will never get, a brain which has lived in psychological isolation, which means conflict, can never possibly come to that ground. That ground which is the origin of all life. Obviously not. How can my petty mind, worrying about my beastly little self come to it?

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    K: In that ground there is no darkness as darkness, light as light. What is that? On that ground, or in that ground, there is no division and so it is not - we have been through all that, just recapture it - it is not born of will, of time, of thought and all that. So in that ground...

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    K: No, sir. We are talking something else. I want to find out, 'X' wants to say, I am not going to be reduced to writing, talking, that is too petty, too small. We will do that, but that's leave that alone. And the question is, as you put, why does the ground need this man?

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    ...Yes, yes. Say for instance 'X' says there is such a ground. And all of us, 'X', 'Y', 'Z' and 'A', 'B', 'C' say what is that ground, prove it, show it, let it manifest itself. And when we ask such questions, is it a mind that is seeking, or rather that has this passion for truth, the love of truth? You follow what I'm saying? Or merely we say let's...

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    ...it can be shown but with all things one must do it, not just verbally talk about it. Can I - or you say the ground exists and the ground has certain demands: which is, there must be absolute silence, absolute emptiness, which means no sense of egotism in any form. Right? Would You tell me that. Am I willing to let go all my egotism because I want...

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    ...where we stopped. I don't know if you are interested in all this. But Dr Bohm and I wanted to investigate, not merely intellectually but also profoundly, how to comprehend or live from that ground, move from that ground, the ground that is timeless, there is nothing beyond it. And I think we had better begin from...

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    K: Sir, I am not interested in approaching any person. I am interested - not interested - all the works I have done, good, everything I have done, the ground says are valueless. And if I can drop all that my mind is the ground. Then from there I move. From there I create society. Sorry! (Laughs)

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    If there is neither darkness nor light, which is really a tremendous division. Right? On that ground there is no division. That ground is not god, or the son of god, there is no division. So what takes place? Would you say sir, that ground is movement?

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    ...with this thing for million years. And I have lived trying to get out of it by studying, by reading, by going to gurus, by all kinds of things I have done. And I am still anchored there! And you talk about the ground because you see something that is breathtaking, that seems so alive, extraordinary and so on. And I am here, anchored in here. You,...

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    K: And to find the ground I must become terribly rational in my life. That's all I start with. And the irrationality has been brought about by thought creating this idea of me as separate from everybody/thing else, etc., etc. So can I, being irrational, find the cause of irrationality and wipe it out? If I can't do that I cannot reach the ground...

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    ...- it's rather difficult to remember. I've no memory of it. I think we asked, if I remember rightly, what is the origin of all this, of all human movement. Is there an original source, a ground? Is that right, sir? A ground from which all this sprang: nature, man, the whole universe. Was it bound by time? Was it in itself complete order, and beyond...

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    ...otherwise you can't go home, otherwise you couldn't write a letter, we couldn't speak in English together, understand each other. Scientific knowledge, technological knowledge is absolutely necessary to function. We see that. That is, if you would communicate in Italian, you must learn Italian - gather, study the meaning of words, the verbs, how...

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    ...may be one of the fundamental reasons of our conflict, of our ignorance. Not the knowledge of outside, technological knowledge, scientific knowledge, medical knowledge, and so on, but the accumulated knowledge of humanity which is the whole burden of the past. That may be one of the basic causes of conflict. We have talked a bit about it and we'll...

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    ...The brain can function happily, easily, without effort, if it feels completely secure. Right? So it has found security in knowledge - right? - knowledge being technological knowledge, in book knowledge. So it says: as long as I have knowledge, I am secure - right? - which means knowledge implies accumulating information and gathering information,...

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    ...So what shall I do? What shall I do as an ordinary man, I realise technological knowledge and all the rest of it, but knowledge which I have accumulated, which is divisive, which is destructive, which is rather petty, and yet I hold on to that and I realise I must let it go but I can't. What shall I do? I think this is the average person's problem...

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    If one sees this very clearly, that thought which has created the modern as well as the ancient civilisations, thought which is the response of memory, thought which is physical as well as chemical, if that thought which has built the whole human structure of behaviour, technological knowledge, technological activity and the science and so on and so on, the movement of that thought, which is time, which is measure, is the world of reality.

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    ...may repeat, we must be absolutely clear of the function of knowledge. You have accumulated within the last hundred and fifty years more technological knowledge than ever before, tremendous knowledge, otherwise you couldn't have gone to the Moon, spaceship and so on, so on. You have invented, man has invented all the terrible instruments of war,...

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    The necessary things are knowledge - how to drive a car, how to speak a language, technological knowledge - please follow this carefully - technological knowledge, the knowledge of reading, writing, and all the things involved in that, but in our human relationship, between man and woman, every incident in that relationship is registered. Right?...

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    So, knowledge has been accumulated through time - scientific knowledge, technological knowledge, knowledge of a language and so on. To learn a language I need time. To learn any technological I must have time, and so on and on. Knowledge, which is the product of time, must exist, otherwise I can't do anything, I can't talk to you, I can't...

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    ...form of conclusion. But when one sees actually, in daily life, how knowledge is so extraordinarily limited, you may have technological knowledge, and you must have, and to that knowledge more can be added, it can be constantly expanded, but is there the accumulation of psychological knowledge from which action takes place? You understand? Are we...

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    So opinions are limited. When one sees that clearly then one does not cling to opinions, or the values that opinions have created. Because then your opinion against another opinion doesn't bring about peace. That is what is happening in the world. One ideology against another ideology - Communist, socialist, the democrat and so on. So please...

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    And from this centre all action takes place - right? All our aspirations, all our ambitions, our quarrels, our disagreements, our opinions, judgements, experiences, is centred in this - right? Shall I go on? We are together so far, aren't we?

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    ...listen. And it is one of the most difficult things to listen - it's quite an art, because most of us have our own opinions, conclusions, points of views, dogmatic beliefs and assertions, our own peculiar little experiences, our knowledge, which will prevent, obviously, from listening actually to another, because all these will crowd in. All these...

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    2nd QUESTION: You said it is necessary to have no opinions (you see again you are referring to me, 'you said' - right? Why haven't you found out for yourself? I will read the question) You said it is necessary to have no opinions about anything. I feel it is necessary to have opinions about such serious things as Nazism, Communism, the spread of...

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    ...to find out, as it is of the greatest necessity, you naturally drop the others. Don't you? If you see this is the greatest importance the others don't play any part - your conclusions, your opinions, your judgements, your beliefs, opinions and so on.

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    ...Right? I have an opinion about the governor, or about the man next door, or about your educator, your teacher, or you might have an opinion about me. Right? Why do you have opinions? You don't know me so why have opinions about me? You really don't know your teacher, what he thinks, what he feels, what his life is, whether he is unhappy or happy,...

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    K: I said, sir, that's the whole bundle, whole of it - my experience, my judgement, my opinions, my desires, my longing for something better - all that is part of me, it's me.

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    ...verbal communication, a statement of what is going on, which probably most people know, but it must be stated. And how you translate what you see depends upon one's conditioning, it depends on one's opinions, or historical conclusions. If one could put aside all those conclusions, opinions, evaluations, but just to observe, as you would observe...

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    K: I'll show it to you in a minute, sir. You see you are all so full of opinions, conclusions, judgements, you haven't time even to say let's look.

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    K: If I am full of opinions and judgements and evaluations and to look at myself I must be somewhat free from it to look. It is so clear!

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    K: Highjack. That's a fact. But I can have an opinion, say 'Well, Lufthansa deserves it.' That is an opinion. So could we not offer an opinion, any opinions, any judgements, but only look at the facts.

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    ...that. Whereas we are saying don't exercise will at all but just observe. That is, you have opinions, just observe your opinions, watch it and by watching it, not rationalising it, not justifying it, just watching it, then you will see that opinions do not matter at all. Therefore you are able to look clearly. You have understood what it means to...

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    ...I feel it in my body which is me. I am not concerned with others. Yes, I won't feel the intensity of that pain as I do about myself with regard to others. You see we are all offering opinions. We are not saying, 'Look, let me find out - apart from Aristotle, apart from philosophers, apart from freaks, apart from everything that has been said. I...

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    K: See, sir, we are prejudiced, aren't we? No? You have your own prejudices, your own opinions, your own experiences, which are part of the whole business. Can you drop them?

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    ...opinion? What can I do with my opinion? Will it affect selling of, stop selling of armaments, will it prevent Nazism, will it prevent torture? Or the whole thing is much more deep than mere having opinions? You understand? Are we meeting each other? I am not laying down a law, or I am not offering any opinions about this. But the problem is much...

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    ...serious, and perhaps you are serious. Then he says, 'Go south, go east, any other direction but that'. And when you actually move away from that direction there is a mutation in the very brain cells themselves because you have broken the pattern. And that pattern must be broken now, not forty years or a hundred years...

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    K: That is what we were discussing the other day - the insight transforms not only the state of the mind but the brain cells themselves undergo a change.

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    ...sake don't waste your energy on going North, go South or East.' The moment he turns East he has broken the pattern. You understand? The pattern which the brain cells have set, he has broken it and gone East. It is as simple as that, if one does it. But you can play with words endlessly, write books endlessly. But once you see the nature of time,...

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    Can the mind and the brain cells themselves which have been the product of time as evolution, can the brain cells themselves and the total mind, that is the body, the movement of desire, the movement, you know, all that, the whole thing be completely still? And it can only be still when you have understood the value of thought, its importance and...

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    ...and all the rest of it. We were discussing about this fact in New York two months ago: whether the brain cells which are conditioned, whether those brain cells can bring about a mutation in themselves, not genetically, you know all the rest of it, but in living, daily living, can there be a mutation in the brain cells? If not, we are condemned for...

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    ...in the meantime. So my question is: how is the mind brain cells, not to record at all: the insults, the flatteries, the yesterday's pain, physical pain as a toothache - please follow this - and not say, 'It will happen again tomorrow, I must be careful' and there is fear, all that is recording of pain, pleasure, fear. How is the brain how are the...

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    The brain cells, one can observe it in oneself - the speaker is not repeating what he has read in books, I don't read books, this is not an assertion of vanity, on the contrary it is a statement of great humility. By observing oneself one can see this phenomenon going on; how the brain cells are conditioned and how they have been conditioned...

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    ...I understand. Now this is a difficult question because one must be careful, very careful. If there is something else - if - then that something else can operate on the brain cells which are conditioned. Right? If there is something in the brain, then the activity of that something else can bring about freedom from this narrow, limited culture. But...

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    ...true it is, I have moved away; the brain has been unconditioned from the old pattern. Do you get this? The moment I perceive the truth of what you have said, the brain cells which have been conditioned to nationalism, to sectarianism disappears. So perception or insight into what you have said brings about a radical change in the very cells...

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    ...we have to go into this question very, very deeply, not superficially just for the day, and pass it by. Because that is what the biologists are seeking, a mutation in the brain cells. The brain cells contain all memories, knowledge, experience. The brain cells are the whole content of your consciousness. And there must be a mutation in that, which...

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    ...He asked, sir, what do you mean by the past. It's in your mind, it's in the brain cells, in the very structure of the brain cells hold all the memories. An experience you pass through and that leaves a mark; the mark, the knowledge, the information is there in the brain cells but it is already over. Isn't it? It is finished. I have experienced an...

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    ...To live a daily life without comparison, psychologically without measurement. Right? Which means the brain cells, which have been accustomed to all their life to measure, have suddenly ended measurement, therefore there is a mutation in the brain cells - right? You may not do it but see the fact. The logical, intellectual fact. It is like, your...

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    ...through resistance, through contradiction. Contradiction exists when there is a wall between you and something else. Right? So, the mind, the brain, the brain cells themselves and the organism demand security, safety. Right? If you have had no security, where you are going to sleep or have your meal and so on, your body will be disturbed....

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    ...your breathing, not your eyes and thought - the brain itself, which is constantly chattering, constantly thinking about this, that and the other. Whether those very brain cells can be absolutely quiet. So therefore we must understand the nature of time. That is, psychologically, inwardly we are caught in a network of time. I am going to die, I am...

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    K: No, don't bring in time yet. We are saying that insight brings about a change in the brain cells, we said that. Which means the brain cells are no longer thinking in terms of time. Right sir?

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    ...Yes. I don't like to use 'subjective' and 'objective'. Is there the need of experience at all? We have said: experience is the response to a challenge. I challenge you - I say, 'Why?' and you either respond to it, and say, 'Yes, perfectly right, why, I am with you'. But the moment there is any kind of resistance to that question, 'Why?', you are...

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    ...speaker or to question your friends, your wives and your husbands, question, to doubt, to enquire, to be sceptical. And when one puts a question, which is a challenge, to whom or from whom do you expect that challenge to be answered? Is it a challenge to oneself? Or are you challenging the speaker? There is a great deal of difference: when you are...

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    ...not a gathering of an evening which you casually attend and forget. We are gathered for a serious purpose. And that serious quality depends on you, whether you are being challenged, whether you accept the challenge, or you just pass it by. Various cultures have failed, including the culture of this country. So when you observe all these outward...

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    K: Total commitment to the challenge. Responding adequately, completely to a crisis. That is, the word 'responsibility' means that, to respond. I cannot respond completely if I am frightened. Or I cannot respond completely if I am seeking pleasure. I cannot respond totally if my action is routine, is repetitive, is traditional, is conditioned. So,...

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    ...same thing, only you put it in one way and I put it in another way, but we both want experience. I say, why? We need experience, as when there is a challenge you respond, that is an experience, and that challenge keeps one awake - right? - if there wasn't the Communists, the Capitalists would be further Capitalists, if there wasn't somebody - you...

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    ...I wake up for the moment and struggle, struggle not to be dull, to be a little more intelligent, and so on, so on. So experience generally has the significance of waking one up, giving you a challenge to which you have to respond. Either you respond to it adequately, or inadequately. If it is inadequate, the response then becomes a medium of pain,...

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    ...but rather exploring the questions. In investigating the question we will find the answer. The answer is in the problem. The meaning of that word 'problem' is, something thrown at you, a challenge - a question is a challenge. And whether we respond accurately to the challenge depends on the state of our minds, the capacity of our brains. Most of...

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    That's a challenge to you. You understand? That's a challenge: why your mind is occupied with itself? How do you answer a challenge? What is your response to that question? Do you respond according to your culture, tradition and respond according to your past background? - please, do listen to this - and therefore, you respond inadequately to a...

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    ...I wake up for the moment and struggle, struggle not to be dull, to be a little more intelligent, and so on, so on. So experience generally has the significance of waking one up, giving you a challenge to which you have to respond. Either you respond to it adequately, or inadequately. If it is inadequate, the response then becomes a medium of pain,...

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    K: All right, only in the moment of a challenge. We are challenging now. If the challenge is strong enough, if the challenge is important enough and if the challenge is urgent, a shock to you, then do you see it? Not as an idea, not as a concept, not as something somebody has told you, but actually you see it.

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    That is, one part is, most people's minds are asleep, asleep through propaganda, habit, repetition, conditioning and so on, asleep and a challenge is necessary for such a mind. Such a mind realises that, therefore keeps awake without challenge. And also there is the other part, experiencer is the experienced therefore he is not asking any more...

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    ...to be a light to yourself in a world that is utterly becoming dark. That means you have to be responsible. Now, what does that word mean? It means really, to respond totally, adequately to every challenge. You cannot possibly respond adequately if you are rooted in the past, because the challenge is new, otherwise it is not a challenge. A crisis...

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    You know, any challenge - any challenge - the deeper the challenge, the wider the challenge, the more intense the challenge is, the greater energy is demanded to meet it. Sorrow is this challenge. And it is the essence of that challenge to which you have to respond. But if you respond to it by escaping from it, by seeking comfort from it, then you...

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    ...the question of meditation. We ought to consider also how we meet our problems. We have problems: a problem is, the meaning of that word is, something thrown at you, like a challenge; how you respond to that challenge, how you respond to a particular problem. As we were saying yesterday, our life is ebb and flow, going out to the world and coming...

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    K: Yes. So what will you do, how will you meet this question, how will you meet this challenge? The challenge is: what are you to do in this world, if you have lost if you put away your ugly little individuality which means nothing.

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    You know, those of us who live in towns, in flats, in small ugly houses, in narrow streets with noise, with all the pollution of the air and the pollution of the earth and the rivers and the trees and nature, we have very little space physiologically, physically and when we have very little space we become violent. We become aggressive. So, when...

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    ...or less we drift along. Now, we are challenging that consciousness, therefore you become conscious of yourself, conscious of what you are. Right? Now, in that consciousness there is very little space. Right? There is the space - please, understand, I am using 'space' in the sense of distance - you must have space to grow, like a tree you must have...

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    ...is must achieve, what it must gain, what the others are thinking about it, it is full of knowledge of other people, conclusions and ideas and opinions. So we have very little space in our mind. Have you noticed it? And when you have no space, one of the factors of violence is the lack of space. Right? If you have watched the birds on a telegraph...