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...we are asking a very simple question, which is really tremendously complex. How you approach that question matters a great deal. Whether you approach it with fear, you approach it with a conclusion, or accepting the authority of others, and your approach then is already limited, circumscribed. To investigate one must be free otherwise you can't...

K: The question is, how do you approach. On that, if you can find out, the response will be right. If I approach it - if someone, if one approaches it, not I, or some, if you approach it from a very narrow, selfish point of view, your approach is limited and therefore your answer will be very, very, very limited because it is a tremendous, complex...

...operating in our relationship in isolation. Now, what happens? I face the fact. You are facing the fact, not I. You are facing the fact. Do you approach it, the fact, with reason, with a ground, with a motive? - which are all Now, so how do you approach it? Without a motive? Without cause? If you approach it, or when you approach it without a...

...Yes? I wonder how we approach this question. What is your approach to it? You understand my question? How do you come to find out what is the meaning of love, why you, as a human being, have not this perfume, this quality that perhaps may answer all the other questions in life? Now what is your approach to it? How do you come to investigate that...

K: Yes, saying I can do something about it. And so how does each one of us approach any of these problems? Jesus! Isn't it important to find out our approach?

So do we know how we approach this question? Are we aware of our approach to it? We say, 'Yes, I know what love is,' and therefore you have stopped enquiring. So, as we said, the approach to the problem is more important than the problem itself. Don't make it into a slogan or a clich, then you have lost it. So are we clear how we approach this...

...To listen so that you immediately understand what he is talking about. That is the art of listening. We are asking now, we have problems and how do you approach the problem - because your approach will dictate or resolve the problem. So find out how you approach any problem. It is very simple if it is a scientific problem, you approach it with all...

...Is the answer more important than the question? Does the answer lie in the question? Please we are thinking together, not just listening to the speaker. How do we approach a question? A question is a problem. A problem, the meaning of that word, is something thrown at you, the root meaning of that word. A question means a challenge. How does one...

So do you approach it intellectually, conceptually - concept - do you approach it with a desire to find an answer? All this indicates you are giving a direction to your enquiry. You are directing your enquiry; you are not free to enquire so you will never find the answer because you are directing what the answer should be. Now can So first,...

How do you, if I may ask, you are asking yourself, I am putting it into words, how do you approach a problem, an issue, something that has to be resolved? How do you approach it? Because we are approaching the problem - right? - the central issue. Which is, I'll have to repeat it again: is it a fact that we must always live in isolation, outwardly...

...of living, one has to observe what actually is taking place outside and inside, in us, inside and outside. And look at it, not try to change it, not try to transform it, not try to bring about different adjustment, see actually what it is. I look at a mountain, I can't change it. Even with a bulldozer I can't change it. But we want to change what...

So we are asking, my friend and I together: is it possible for us to change? Not change to something else, that is only a becoming. When you change what you are to what you should be, that is a form of becoming. Right? So that is no change at all. I wonder if you understand this? If I am greedy, or schizophrenic, or utterly committed to some kind...

...am asking myself, can this violence in me end completely, never to come back again? Are you asking this question? Will you ask that question of yourself? Cause time is not going to change you. So what will end this violence instantly? What happens to a brain, to your brain when you see the logic of this: that time does not change you under any...

That is, to be aware of 'what is' in oneself. Right? One may be conscious that one is envious, or violent, and to change, to bring about a change in that violence you need time. Is that so? You are following this? Please, are you? Is there somebody to whom I can talk and who'll tell me they understand?

...do you listen to all this? That outward pressure is not going to change, inward giving yourself over to a presence, a reality, to god, to this, or to that, is still the desire which drives you to forget yourself, but the self is still there, only covered up. So do you listen to these statements. Right? Or it doesn't mean any thing at all? So...

And we are asking: I am this, my consciousness is this: fear, sorrow, pain, pleasure and all the varieties of fear, all the nationalistic, tribalistic responses, prejudices - black, white, purple, pink and all the rest of it, we are all that - subtle, violent, cruel, bitter, cynical, and we are always trying to change that into something else, like violence, trying to change violence into non-violence, which is to become.

...not the Indian earth and the Muslim earth, it is our earth. And we have created a monstrous, immoral society. To bring about a change in that society, no outside agency, no system, no new Marxism, new ideas are going to change the society. You have to change. Right? And that change can only begin, that revolution, psychological revolution can only...

Or I'm asking, can my love, intense, can that bring about a change in her? Please, you're asking these questions. Can I, who have understood this whole phenomena with all its depth, will that quality of love, compassion, intelligence, bring about a change in her? That is, if she's at all sensitive, if she's at all observant, listening to what I am...

David Bohm: Well, I thought that perhaps we could go - we raised several questions after these discussions. One was the nature of this ground that we discussed, whether we could come to it and whether it has any interest in human beings. And also we discussed the possibility that there could be a change in the physical behaviour of the brain.

...Go slowly, sir, think it out carefully. If one has an idea, a concept, a conclusion, an end to which you conform, to which you change to, or from this to that, is that change? Or is it a continuation of the same thing but modified. You have understood my question? One may project what one should be. The projection of that is from one's own desire,...

K: Explaining, rather. So if one listens in the same way, without the 'me' to the nature of the individual, the nature of his activities and his organisations, then there is no problem, you have got it, because you are listening entirely without the centre.

So can we go into it? This instrument and the nature. We have talked about 'what is' from the first time we met you, but what is the nature of this 'what is'?

K: Man is part of nature. Are you? Biologically you may be, but are you part of nature? Go on sir, answer it yourself, this doesn't require a very deep Are you? Nature is all that - the rivers, the trees, the mountains, the birds, the endless seas, and so on. Are you all that? Or are you a Catholic, Protestant, Communist, Socialist? (Laughter)

So, sirs, it is important to understand the nature and the structure of relationship. To change this corrupt society you must change, you must change yourself radically. And during all these talks we are concerned about that only: to bring about a mutation in the very mind, in the very cells of the brain.

So one has to understand very, very deeply the nature and the structure of thought. If you have not understood it you can't meditate. You can fiddle around with it.

...Yes. What is the nature of the psyche? What is the nature of a total human being, as it is now, and whether that total human being can be transformed, can be changed? After all you have a student who comes to you, ignorant of mathematics, history, whatever it is, and you educate him so that he has a different mind at the end of ten years. He is...

...No, no, no, no - why? Why aren't you looking at that flower? Why? First of all, I think, we have given to nature such nature has no value at all for most of us because we say, 'Well, I can see the tree any time I want to'. That's one thing. And also, we are so concentrated upon our own worries, our own hopes, our own desires and experiences,...

K: So where does that lead us? We were talking really about insight, that it actually changes the nature of the brain itself.

K: Now wait a minute, Scott, do you question why you don't see the whole nature and structure of fear? Or do you say, I don't see, I only see part of it, not the whole of it. Do you question why you don't see it?

May we stop now? It is an hour and a quarter we have talked. You haven't talked but K has talked. But we have had a communication with each other, because we have established the basis of a communication in which there is no superior and the inferior, one who knows and one who does not know. May we get up? Apres vous: After you! (laughter)

Listen not only verbally, and the meaning of the word, but also non-verbally - for communication is verbal and non-verbal, and since we are speaking in English, the words have definite meaning and if you don't understand the meaning of the word actually but interpret that word according to your particular conditioning then you will not be listening to what is being said.

...course not. Sir, when you hold a hand of another, you can hold it out of habit or of custom. Or you can hold it and communication can take place without a word, because both are at the given moment intense, communication has taken place, without a word. But we are not intense, passionate,...

You know that word, 'communication' is very important to understand. Communication means building together, creating together. The word itself means that. And here we are trying to communicate, the speaker is trying to communicate with you, who are the listener, which means the listener and the speaker are creating together. Therefore, you're not...

...we go into that this morning? Can we freely enquire together into this question? Because communication and relationship always go together. If there is no communication there is no relationship, not only between you and the speaker but also between each other. If we merely remain at the verbal level, at the formal level, that communication is very...

K: I understand that, sir. But I want to find (laughs), not a drug, not a medicine, not a way, but there must be a communication between you and me who is the ordinary man, a communication so that the communication is so strong that very my act of listening to you and you communicating with me operates.

K: (Repeating) Could we go into communication and attention. All right, sir, let's talk about communication and attention. Any other thing?

...No. I'm just using that. Sir, first see, I'm talking about the word 'communication', not conditioning. We'll come to that. I don't know if I understand it rightly , I am talking - we are talking about that word, 'communication', which means, as I said, to build together. Here, communication means building together, understanding together, working...

...were talking yesterday evening? Communication with each other, to commune, to communicate something to another, unless they are really willing to listen, however friendly, however good-intentioned, unless one is able to listen to another, communication becomes rather limited, misunderstood, and apt to be misguiding. So we are going to talk over...

...in English we have to understand the meaning of words, how they are used. And in this communication, that is, in listening to what is going to be said, either we share in what is being said or merely translate what is being said into ideas, into abstractions. Either we share together what is being said and not translate it into an ideology, into...

The word 'religion', the root of it, has not been established. I think from observing and looking into various dictionaries, it really means gathering together all energy to find out the truth. I think that is what it means, after looking at various French, English, Italian dictionaries. It implies also diligence and negligence. A mind must be...

...going to examine what is a religious mind. As we said, only religion - we will explain what that word means presently - only religion has brought about at any historical time a new culture, totally independent of the old superstitious, ritualistic, repetitive nonsense - totally different. And we are going to enquire into that. Religion, the word...

...Yes, sir. You know, a word like religion, love, or god, has almost lost all its meaning. They have abused these words so enormously, and religion has become a vast superstition, a great propaganda, incredible beliefs and superstitions, worship of images made by the hand or by the mind. So when we talk about religion I would like, if I may, to be...

K: You see religion is based on tradition. Religion is vast propaganda, as it is now. In India, here, anywhere, propaganda of theories, of beliefs, of idolatry, worship, essentially based on the acceptance of a theory.

K: Scrap books and conditions, sir, let's talk together freely. So I say to myself, Why? Is this the result of all this? Environment, culture, education, religion, the economic social structure which makes me consider myself first, my view, my union...

K: You see when we have divorced conduct from religion, which we have, divorced relationship from religion, which we have, divorced death from religion, which we have, divorced love from religion, when we have made love into something sensuous, something that is pleasurable, then religion, which is the factor of regeneration, disappears in man.

...we are going together find out what is meditation. Which is to ask what is a religious mind, what is religion? One can see what religion is not. Religion is not all the things that are going on in the world, the churches, look at what happens in the churches, in the cathedrals, in the temples, in the mosques, in the Tibetan shrines and so on,...

...at your japam and your repetitions of whatever you repeat. You don't say, 'Why am I doing this? What is the reason, what lies behind all this?' You follow tradition and therefore you think that's religion. You know, in India somebody calculated three hundred thousand gods. It is perhaps better than having one god. You can choose anything you like....

...business of living, we are not educated to look and see what happens if we face death. So I was wondering as we came along this morning, religion, which we were going to discuss anyhow, has become merely not only a divisive process but also utterly meaningless. Maybe 2,000 years as Christianity, or 3,000, 5,000 as Hinduism, Buddhism and so on, it...

Is religion all the things that thought has put together? The rituals, the robes, the gurus, the perpetual repetition, prayers and the whole thing, is that religion? Or is it a big business concern? There is a temple in South India that makes a million dollars every third day. You understand what I am saying? Every third day that temple gathers...

So what do we mean by love? Do you want them, your children whom you love, to enter into this insane world? It's a tremendous problem this. But you have to enter into that world. You have to have an occupation. You have to earn a livelihood. You can't just withdraw from the world because you are the world. So, the mother asks, what shall I do,...

And also when we say I love another, in that love there is desire, pleasure, projections of various activities of thought. So one has to look into and find out whether love is desire, whether love is pleasure, whether in love there is fear. Because where there is fear there must be hatred - right? Please, I am not telling you all this, you know...

K: Yes, lead to. Division, no relationship. If there is a relationship, perpetual wrangle - you don't love me, I love you - you know, all that kind of thing that goes on. And each one pursuing his own self interest. How can you have any kind of relationship, or love in this?

...Do? If you loved somebody, this country wouldn't be in chaos as it is. And the world, there would be no wars if somebody if we loved people. So, your books, your japams, your rituals have no meaning whatsoever because you are not you have lost the most precious thing in life. You have never probably had it. To love - without jealousy, without...

So love is not the opposite of hate, of desire, or pleasure. So love is something entirely different from all that, because love has no opposite. If you really understand this, go into it, not catch my enthusiasm, my vitality, my interest, my intensity, then you will find out what is much more inclusive than that, is compassion. The very word is...

...Wait, sir. Look first - you're all (laughs) If you love me and I don't love you, what will you do? Even physically. You might say how terrible, you might get depressed, and all the rest of it - it's all self-centred. I live with that self-centred activity, that's my life. And how will he convey it to me? Because he has that intelligence,...

And also I have enquired, what it means to love, and the mind finds love isn't pleasure, love isn't mere desire, love isn't merely the pleasures of sex, or the pleasures of imagination, the pleasures of ideas - that has led to immense disorder. And also we've enquired into this extraordinary thing called death - we went into that the other day.

You know, one of our difficulties is we have associated love with pleasure, with sex. And love also, for most of us, means jealousy, anxiety, possessiveness, attachment. That is what we call love. So is love attachment? Is love pleasure? Is love desire? Is love the opposite of hate? If it is the opposite of hate, then it is not love. Right? Do you...

K: Sir, if you have no love then you are a lost soul, but why do you have children then? Having children, what am I to do? You are not facing the problem! I have a child, a son, who is growing up. I want him to be a totally different kind of human - just listen, sir - I want him to be a totally different kind of man, not aggressive, not violent,...

K: No, that's what I am questioning. That is what I would like to discuss with you. I feel, I mean to me the good is totally divorced from the bad, like love is not related to hate.

So thought and fear: he said fear is independent of thought. Is it? If you had no thought at all would you be afraid? Of tomorrow? Of the past? Of death? Of your neighbour? Your wife? So thought is fear. We will go into all that tomorrow.

K: Yes. As I am sitting in the tent now I have no fear because I am listening to what you are talking about, naturally I am not afraid. But this fear may come up as I leave the tent. But can't you, sitting here in this rather hot tent, see your fear, which you may have had yesterday, see it, invoke it, invite it.

How do you observe fear? This is not a silly question, because either you observe it after it has happened, or you observe it as it is happening. Right? For most of us the observation takes place after it has happened - right? Now we are asking whether it is possible to observe fear as it arises - right? That is, you are threatened by another...

K: With this rubbish. There is that fear. Then there is the fear of not being able to arrive, succeed, succeed in this world of disorder, and succeed in the so-called spiritual world. That's what they are all doing now.

K: No, you haven't, I haven't made myself clear. If the entity, which is the fear, the anxiety, the guilt and all the rest of that, that entity has dissolved itself from fear and so on, what is there to experience?

K: Is fear itself watching itself? Please don't guess. Don't come to any conclusion. Find out. The mind isn't escaping from fear, not building a wall against fear through courage - you know, all the rest of it. What takes place when I watch? I ask myself naturally, who is watching? Right? Who is watching the thing called fear? Don't answer me...

And also we talked about fear, which is a very, very, very complex problem; the contributory causes of that fear: conformity, comparison, imitation, trying to be something that you are not, and other factors, bring about fear. We went into that very deeply. And also we talked about the continuation and the demand for pleasure, whether it is the...

K: Right sir. You must look at your fear. How do you look at your fear? We have come to that point now. You see. That is, human beings are frightened. How do you observe that fact?

Now we are going to go into that first because when you come to discuss fear you have to understand the meaning, the word, the significance of all that - fear. And as long as we are operating within the known, fear is strengthened. Right?

K: Fear of the past, whatever it is - fear. Fear about what? Fear exists in relation to something, fear doesn't exist by itself.

...pointing out the other day, mankind has suffered thousands of wars, wars that seem to have no end. We have left it to the politicians all over the world to bring about peace, and what they are doing, if you have followed them, will never bring peace. We are all preparing for war. When you prepare you are going to have some kind of blow up, whether...

...in a state of mind that is always comparing - bigger car, less car, more beautiful, less beautiful, more intelligent, less - you follow? - more money, less - more peace, less peace - God, truth - you follow? Why am I comparing? Please I am curious, you understand, I am learning. Why am I comparing? And I see this comparison has brought inadequacy...

...of what is happening around us in the world, and the fact that most of us are concerned with ourselves. And in a world that has no peace whatsoever, there is such chaos, disorder, great danger, terrorism, threats of war - these are all facts. And in this world, living every day of our lives, with all the turmoil, with all the labour that man has...

...face facts and not fiddle about with ideas, beliefs, faith and all that business. But actually deal with what we have, that is our fears, our anxieties, our jealousies, our antagonism, and great deal of pretensions, hypocrisy, worshipping peace and killing another. There is that word in Latin, which the Catholic hierarchy have been repeating for...

And if one may again point out without boring you, that this is not a lecture about religion or philosophy, or what is peace and so on. It's not how you should think or what you think but rather together, you and the speaker, enquire into this very complex question of what is religion and if it is possible not only to have peace in the world but...

So I want peace and I find peace can be had at a certain price and I am willing to pay for that. But I resist every other method of achieving, peace. I know all that, so I say to myself: can I live completely, right through my whole being without resistance? Not that I must resist this or that, follow this person and not that person - can I live...

And also we ought to consider together, what is peace? The obvious meaning is not to have conflict, not to have pain, not to suffer, not to have everlasting struggle from the moment you are born till you die. That is, to have no problems at all and no conflict. Is that possible? Is it possible to live in this world, not run away from the world, is...

...Yes sir. There are several organisations that talk about peace in the world, various groups that are talking about peace in the world - pacem in terris. The pope says it, other religious organisations assert it - you must have peace on earth. And you are asking, if I understand rightly: are there individuals, groups, organisations that are working...

We were talking about peace: why human beings who have lived on this earth for so many thousands and thousands of years have had no peace at all. There have been innumerable wars and probably there will be more wars. And why with all the technological knowledge we have acquired, and all the protestations of religions about peace, pacem in terris,...

...the next question is, which Mrs Lilliefelt put, which is: how does this flash come about? Let's begin the other way round. How does love come about? How does peace come about. Which is, peace being causeless, violence is cause, how does that causeless thing come about when my whole life is causation? (Pause) No, there is no 'how'. Right? There is...

Is there an action which is not based on ideas, on ideologies, on traditions, on books, on the say-so of a guru, or the say-so of a saviour? That means is there an action which is universal, not mine or yours. Is there an action which is essentially based on freedom? Is there an action which is non-mechanical because the mind, the brain is...

Now, to find out an action that is complete, non-contradictory, an action which doesn't breed further conflict, to find that out you have to find out the two active principles in life, which is pleasure and fear. These are the two principles that drive us. Right? Look into yourself, please. What you want is the continuous, persistent pleasure and...

I wonder what we mean by action. What does action mean to you? To act. Does one act according to a principle, according to a prototype or an ideal, or according to some preconceived idea and act approximating that action to that ideal, prototype, to a concept, to a conclusion. Please follow all this, if you are interested in all this. When we talk...

K: Yes, sir but have we - I don't know how to approach this question, because here we are, each one has a different idea what action is. Right? Right, sir? Now is there an action which we can all, not accept, but see the fact or let me put it differently: is there an action which is not divisive, which is not self-centred, which is not idealistic,...

So, is there an action which is not mechanistic, which is not based on reward and punishment? Having put that question to yourself, as I am putting it for you, how do you find out an answer? You understand? I have asked you, is there a behaviour, an action, a conduct, a relationship in which there is no mechanistic movement at all? So how do you...

Now that norm has disappeared. So now there is only the question: what is action without the observer? Is there action, action not in the sense of the word, of the individual doing, but action when I am the world and the world is me. That brings about great sense of love, great sense of non-isolating existence, which is love.

K: From there you say, how is it possible to convey to others this quality of urgency, the quality of intensity, and action which is always taking place now? Action - doing now, not tomorrow or yesterday.

...that requires a great deal of attention, quiet enquiry, hesitant examination, not, 'Tell me what to do and I will do it'. Because everything is falling to pieces around us and there must be action of a totally different kind. Not action according to anybody, even according to the speaker. We are going in to find out for ourselves what is action,...

So, what we are talking is action, because life is action, not saying one part of life is action only, the whole of living is action. And that action is broken up, and this breaking up of action is this process of memory with its thoughts and isolation. Right? Is that clear?

...and so on. We went into all that. And where these things exist, we said, there is no love. And when our action is based on merely thought, which is memory, then that action is incomplete, and being incomplete it must invariably bring about conflict. Any action that is not total, whole, holistic, complete, must breed contradiction. We went into...

K: And also, sir, the question arises, can one actually experience something which is not experienceable? We use the word 'experience' so easily - 'realise', 'experience', 'attain', 'self-realisation', all these things - can one actually experience the feeling of supreme ecstasy? Let's take that for the moment, that word. Can one experience it?...

...Yes. Now what is involved in that? What is involved in the demand of our experience, and the experiencing of that demand? I experience what that guru or master, or somebody tells me, how do I know it is real? And I say, I recognise it, don't I, sir? Look, I experience something, and I can only know that I have experienced it only when I have...

As you say, the infinite, can one experience the infinite? This is really quite a fundamental question, not only here but in life. We can experience something which we have already known. I experience meeting you. That's an experience, meeting you, or you meeting me, or my meeting X. And when I meet you next time I recognise you, don't I? I say,...

So then there is the authority of another, and the dependence on another; there is the authority of tradition, there is the authority of the past as memory, as experience, as knowledge. And there is the authority of an experience which is the immediate. Are you following all this? You have had an experience, and that becomes the authority. And...

As you say, the infinite, can one experience the infinite? This is really quite a fundamental question, not only here but in life. We can experience something which we have already known. I experience meeting you. That's an experience, meeting you, or you meeting me, or my meeting X. And when I meet you next time I recognise you, don't I? I say,...

...with our own successes, failures and giving ourselves great importance in doing little things - whether all that can end and discover something totally new. Not only discover, but experience. One must be very careful in the usage of that word 'experience'. There is really nothing to experience. If you go beyond time, if that is possible, and...

K: Because the experience leaves a mark on the brain as experience and therefore there is memory of it, and this memory, you are saying, divides.

And the experience must be recognised, which means it has already had an inclination of it. So a mind that is free of the individual - may I go on? - has no experience. Won't somebody catch me in this?

...I am going into it. So in meditation there is no experience. Right? I wonder if you see that. This is very important to understand. Experience implies, the word 'experience' means to go through, not to hold something back, to go through and finish. The meaning of that word. And also in experience several things are implied. When you have an...

So without experience there is no knowledge. The scientists are adding everyday something new. Please follow this carefully, if you don't mind. Experience is limited. Right? Because we are adding more and more to it, through knowledge. Experience, knowledge stored in the brain as memory and then that is the beginning of thought. Right? Am I right?...

K: How do I know that anger is a fact and the opinion about anger is a conclusion. Right? Don't you know? The opinion, the judgement about anger is a conclusion. And the fact I'm angry is a fact. For the love of god.

So the hurt is not different from me, the 'me' is the image, and that image gets hurt, so I am that image. Like anger is not different from me, I am anger. I might think I am different but in actuality I am anger. So do you see the truth of it - not the idea of it? the actual truth that when you are angry that anger is you.

K: I never said - those are biological demands, but psychologically - anger, envy, jealousy, hate, attachment - can't you end all that? Of course, one can. Then do it! Talk to your wife or your husband, to your neighbour, gently, quietly, with affection, with care. Sir, you make me cry! You don't listen to all this.

...it. Before I am aware or anything, I say to myself, is it possible for me to watch - casually, I'm playing with it, I am having a game with myself. I am watching the movement of anger arising. I think that's fairly simple. Right? I think you've noticed all that, haven't you? No,...

K: Sir, look at it in yourself. At the moment of jealousy, or of anger, or of envy, or of hate, whatever it be, happiness, at that second there is no division, is there?

K: Wait, careful, don't agree so quickly. You are not different from all that. Right? Are you different from anger? No, of course not. So you are anger. Right?

K: If I don't hold my anger I am afraid I might kill somebody. Look, look. Before you kill somebody, try to find out if you can resolve the anger. To control it is to suppress it. To say, 'I must not be angry' is to create the opposite, and therefore a conflict between 'must not be' and the fact that I am. Right? Or if you try to escape from it,...

...what happens when you when the observer is the observed. You understand? When the anger is me, then what takes place? Have you enquired into this or you just say, 'Yes, I am the observer, the observed'? Meaningless. But to find out or experience, go into it and find out if anger is always different from you. That has been the tradition, that has...

K: You are anger at that moment. You are envy at that moment. And so there are many, many moments you are. Right? You are your anger, you are your name, you are your bank account, if unfortunately you have a bank account, you are your family you are your society, you are your god - you are, you invented all this. So, there is no 'you' separate...

Sir, we have the idea, a concept, a tradition that I am different from my anger. I am the atman and all that kind of stuff, I am different from everything, I am the watcher. Right? I am the controller. As that gentleman points out very clearly, that if I don't do anything now, that is, I won't be attached, I won't do anything about my attachment,...

...meaning of death. Have you ever ended anything without explanation, without resistance, without seeking a reward or punishment, end something? Have you? Have you ever ended completely attachment? That's what it means to die, to end. You can't when death comes, all that is cut off, your attachment to a person. So the significance of death in its...

...You are free of it, not just verbally say, 'Yes, I am not'. So that is why I asked at the beginning, if I may point out, unless we do this actively, see, aware that it is so in us, and being aware look at it, go into it, search out why human beings hold on to this attachment. Why you are attached as husband, wife, furniture, book, belief, it...

So we have said if there is love there is no attachment; if there is attachment there is no love. So there has been the removal of the major factor in negation of what it is not, which is, love is not attachment. You know what it means in your daily life? No remembrance of anything, my wife, my girl-friend, or my neighbour told me, no remembrance...

...it. It is hidden, but we are going to talk about it. So please forgive if I do. Our relationship is sexual, pleasurable. Our relationship is either possessiveness, attachment, various forms of intrusions upon each other. And if we examine one quality in that relationship, which is attachment, what is attachment, why do we have such tremendous need...

...because if you continue with all your memories, you know, that's it leads nowhere, it leads to what is called death. But if you see the truth of this continuity, then will you ask the question: how is one to end attachment? Take one simple thing, like attachment, how is one to end attachment? You understand my question? How to end attachment...

David Bohm: Are you saying that attachment we see from its consequences, and therefore we infer the attachment - but you are asking that we might see the attachment unfold from the bud.

...Hold on to them, or let them go? Or if you find yourself attached to somebody, to some ideals, to some belief, if you are at all aware and familiar with your attachment, how far one has let them go, knowing all attachment leads to a great deal of sorrow, and pain, and all the rest of it, which we went into.

K: Need I translate that? Somebody do it, please. All right sir, I'll do it for you. Don't make it difficult, be simple about it. The fear is the impermanency of ourselves, and the attachment - I'm translating generally - the attachment then becomes the cause of fear. Now just a minute, sir. You see how my investigation is going on.

And we were saying one of the factors, among others, is this attachment - why human beings are so attached to a belief, to an ideal, to an image of themselves, to some concept, to the verbal structure. And when one is attached, in that attachment, however deep, however momentary, however pleasant, in that possessiveness, which is attachment, there...

Then there is also the attachment to persons. That is, in our relationship there is a great deal of suffering. That is, one may be free from this conditioning of fear and so on, and the other may not be, and hence there is a tension, and that tension arises not only out of attachment - the word 'attachment' means holding on, not only physically...

So preparation according for myself is not necessary at all. What is necessary is to begin with freedom, and that freedom goes with intelligence, not to do what you like. That freedom means responsibility, integrity.

...uncertain, depressed - do you follow? - the whole process of our activity. And security - there is such a thing as security. But that demands a great enquiry. Security in freedom. Freedom is not from something: freedom from fear, freedom from anxiety and so on. Those are all partial, limited. That freedom is not limited. Is there such freedom? And...

...one human being and there is the collective suffering. And can the mind, your mind, go beyond it? Because unless one does, the mind is never free. Freedom is one of the most important things in life. Most of us do not want to be free, most of us like to be attached to a person or to an idea, to a piece of earth or to some furniture in the house....

We were saying that systems, philosophies, religions, have not freed man and freedom within the prison of consciousness is no freedom at all. It's like a prisoner living within four walls and saying he is free; he is not free, he can walk about in the yard but freedom is something entirely different, it lies totally outside the prison. And seeing...

So if freedom is not all that, that is, there is only freedom when there is absolute non-identification with anything, with the church, with the gods, with beliefs, with the statue - you follow? - with nothing, then what are we, as human beings? Do you follow my question? I will go into it.

...we ought to talk over that first, perhaps. What is freedom? Is freedom a reaction from bondage, from loneliness, from every form of depression, anxiety, loneliness, despair and so on? If there is a reaction from those and you call that freedom then that is not freedom, it is merely a response to a condition. Freedom implies also, as we understand...

So there are two things involved in it: first freedom, and fear. Right? What is freedom? Please, this is not a talk by me, therefore it is a dialogue. What is freedom? Does the mind, our whole being demand freedom? Or freedom only in certain things, freedom from pain, sorrow, anxiety, guilt and all that, but not from pleasure. You understand? We...

K: I think we were talking about freedom, responsibility and relationship. And before we go any further we thought we'd talk over together this question of order. What is order in freedom? As one observes all over the world, there is such extraordinary disorder.

...one has to find out what is learning. I want to learn whether there is freedom from thought, first. Not how to use thought - that is the next question. But can the mind ever be free from thought? What does this freedom mean? We only know freedom from something - freedom from fear, freedom from this or that, from anxiety, from, oh, a dozen things....

K: Ah! (Laughter) That's all I am saying. You are all so mad after money, which means freedom, which means pleasure, that's all you want. And you call that living.

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