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...give me pleasure, I will do that. That has been our action. Our action is based on reward and punishment, obviously. And that is the world we have lived in. And that world has no answer. It can keep on going round and round in that world saying, there is an answer, there is an answer, but it will always remain there. That is...

...You are following? Do you know it? You probably have read a great deal, gone to many libraries, made research or looked into books and literature, religious literature, read intellectual literature and the existentialism, this and that, you must have done all this, and have you found the answer? Or is this the first time that you are facing this...

...comes the complications. If you are willing to be prepared for complications, we'll go into it. Now most of us put a question and then wait for an answer. Right? And if the answer is not convenient or comfortable or makes one rather shy about it, we put it aside. So you ask a question and you are waiting for an answer. And the answer is according...

K: One of the questions that gentleman asked was that he thinks all my life is a pretence. Just a minute sir, just a minute. You asked that question. I don't see how I can answer that question. I don't think I am pretending. So that is the end of my answer.

...it waiting to be informed, is it waiting to be told, or is it waiting to find knowledge which will then bring about a harmonious life? You follow? I must answer that question when I say, 'I don't know'. Am I waiting for an answer when I say, 'I don't...

K: Have you found an answer for yourself, which must be rational, logical, objective, can stand up against any questioning, which can be doubted, not easily accepted? So, have you found such an answer?

...pain, suffering - then what is the relationship between two human beings - you follow? - in that field of reality, in which there is no attachment? Right? What is your answer? Answer it to yourself - not all of you answer to me - what is your answer? If there is no attachment - not detachment, callousness, indifference, that is the opposite and...

...it tomorrow, I'll have my instant pleasure and if fear comes out of it I will put up with it - time will not solve this problem. Right? So what will you do? Who is going to answer you? After raising this question, seeing all the complexities of it, seeing that nobody on earth, or some divine force - we have relied on all that before - is going to...

...is thought love? Is love memory? Is the perception of this whole phenomenon which thought has created, is thought still trying to find an answer within that area? You follow sir? The politicians are, the economists are, the socialists are, the communists - you follow? - everybody is trying to find an answer within this area - the priests, the...

...do we expect a reply from somebody else? Here are several questions this morning. We shall answer them, or rather we shall together investigate the question, not the answer but rather in finding out the meaning of that question we shall then come upon the answer. The question is much more important, it seems to me, rather than the answer. Why one...

...of a guru is fear. Right? The respect that you have for your bosses, for your politicians, for your gurus, for your so-called higher authorities, that respect which is never shown to those below you, politically, religiously, morally, ethically, in business, is really a cowardice. Are you accepting all this? The word 'respect' means to look back....

K: What is real friendship, if in that there is no trust or respect. If there is no trust or respect, what is the meaning of real friendship? I don't know. (Laughter) If you haven't got respect and affection how can you have friendship? I don't quite understand the meaning of this question.

...Nobody has said that to me, here or in India or anywhere else. Perhaps one or two have. But I'm asking you, out of politeness, kindness, etc., respect, what do you pay for something which is unpayable.

...give you comfort, which will psychologically make you feel secure. That you love, which is what you want, you love. Right? Be ruthless in this. So devotion is not love, which is different from respect. You understand? Devotion is totally different from respect. That is, to respect another, care for another, consideration for another. But you only...

We will now talk about religion and meditation. The speaker puts religion and meditation at the end of the talks because to find out what is most sacred in life, and what is meditation - to find that out there must be no fear. There cannot possibly be any selfish motive of achievement, of gaining, of becoming. So he puts meditation and religion at...

...a belief, drugged by following somebody. This demands, please, that you be a light to yourself, not the light of another, light which comes through enquiry. And religion is sceptical enquiry. Religion is that. Religion isn't all the circus that goes on in the world - the puja, the rituals, the worship of idols, worship of symbols in the Christian...

...all, what is this mind that has created this present India? Not only the religion, the superstition, the gurus, the worship of idols, the pujas, the infinite number of rituals, which are all called religion, which are not religion at all, and the corruption, the tradition handed down. The word 'tradition' means to hand out, to give to another and...

K: Gathering together all energy to be attentive; to be attentive, otherwise it's not religion. Religion is all the things - we'll discuss that when we come to it. So freedom means the sense of complete austerity and a sense of total negation of the observer.

Now, look at it the other way. What do you consider religion? What is, to you, religion? To you, to you - what is religion? You understand, you must answer this question.

The word 'religion', the root of it, has not been established. I think from observing and looking into various dictionaries, it really means gathering together all energy to find out the truth. I think that is what it means, after looking at various French, English, Italian dictionaries. It implies also diligence and negligence. A mind must be...

...in Venice or in Rome it's a marvellous sight. It's like a military thing operating, but beautiful. But that's not beauty as we've talked about the other day. So all that is not religion. Right? Intellect, which is the power to discern, the power to distinguish, to see what is true, what is false; that's the power of the intellect. And the world...

...we are going to enquire into that. That is, what is religion? Please understand, we have talked about fear, we talked about psychological wounds, not to carry for the rest of one's life. We talked and have gone into it together, what is relationship, the significance of relationship. Nothing can exist on earth without relationship, and that...

K: Right. That we say, that is our life. Then what do you mean by religion, a religious life? You tell me. What is religion to you?

We ought to talk over another serious matter which is, what is religion? Why has mankind for over a million years sought something beyond himself? You understand? All new cultures are based on religion. This is an historical fact. And all our culture in the modern day is nothing but money, noise, violence, brutality, power, whether in the temples,...

...can one be totally free of all attachment? It's up to you. But when you are attached there is no love, because in that attachment there is fear. Fear is not love. The ambitious man who wants to climb the ladder of success has no love, because he is concerned with himself, with his achievement, with his gathering, the power, the position, the...

...What is it that will answer all these questions? Would not all these questions be answered when you have absolute unconditional psychological freedom? And freedom means love, not anything else. Love is not desire, pleasure, sensation, attachment. And where there is love, there's compassion and that unlimited intelligence. When it's there, you've...

So we are asking, is pleasure love? Pleasure being desire, the movement of thought, sensation and the pursuit of it. And if it is not love, then what is it? Can there be jealousy when there is love? Go on sirs. Those of you who have girls and boys and husbands and wives, and all the rest of it. Can there be love when there is attachment, when you...

...unconditioned. So if we can this morning go into this question of conditioning, not only the superficial cultural conditionings but also why conditioning takes place, and what is the quality of mind that is not conditioned, that's gone beyond it, because we have to go into this matter fairly deeply to find out what love is. And in understanding...

So the questioner says, what is love and how does it arise? My god! It means, sir, first of all, what is love? Can you describe it? Can you put it into words? Or would you find out what is not love? Would you approach it negatively, not positively - say what is love, tell me how to get it. Do you realise, sir, who put this question, what this...

K: The mother loves the baby and the baby loves the mother and that is a necessity. Right? Is that so? You make a statement, you don't investigate it. Is that so? The animals love their babies. The lowest form of life, manifestation of life, loves its young. And this is a movement from the animal to the man. And is that love? I am not saying it is...

...thought giving shape to sensation is the origin of desire. That origin which is desire has nothing whatsoever to do with love. Love is not born of thought. Therefore love has its own intelligence. Thought has its own peculiar intelligence, but the intelligence of that compassion, love, is something totally outside the brain, which is not contained...

...on the divine - you follow, all the rest of that And they are burning inside. Outside denying but inwardly burning. And that is what they call religious life. Which means they have no love. They have an idea of what love is. The idea is not love. The idea, the word is not love. But only when you have seen the whole movement of desire, attachment,...

So we are saying, asking: is love desire? You answer that question for yourself. Desire, we said, is sensation, and thought giving shape to that sensation. The remembrance of pleasure and the demand for that pleasure, more and more and more. So is love pleasure? Is love jealousy? Possessiveness, attachment, fear? Or is love something totally -...

So with the ending of sorrow there is love. If you are suffering, not only physically but inwardly more, how can you love another? You can have pity, you can have sympathy, you can be kind, generous, but that is not love, but love includes all that. Because we have said we must go into this question of what is love.

K: That's right, sir. So all that is implied - pain, attachment, jealousy, anxiety, fear and the great sexual pleasure, and so on - the whole of that is implied in our daily relationship. Why do we accept it? Why don't we question it? That's what we are here for.

...in our lives, crisis in our consciousness. We are trying to stop a particular kind of war, nuclear war and all the rest of that of business, and that fear, that in finding security in division, that fear No, the desire to find security in division which creates fear, then that fear brings about wars. I hope we all following all...

So I am the result of human struggle, pain, fear, sorrow, whether I live in India, here, or in Europe, or in America, wherever I live, I am the result of humanity - right? - which is sorrow, struggle, pain, anxiety, fear, all kinds of psychological disturbances. Right? Who has created this, which is the image I have - I am a great man, I am...

So that is the first thing about desire when you are examining fear because there is fear in our desires. One may not get it, one may not have it, one may not fulfil. And also when we are examining together fear we must understand a most fundamental thing which is time. May we go on? You are not tired?

JK: Sir, it seems at this point the fear is still there. Now fear hasn't been dealt with. All you've done is put aside incapacity and the intelligence has been awakened. Once that's awakened then it can start dealing with fear. The fear is still there.

K: Therefore I have now this thing. I am confronted with that, confronted with fear. Now, what can I do? Listen to this, sir, what can I do? I can't do anything, because it is I who have created the fear - public opinion

Because if one is afraid, and to escape from that fear - however deep, however superficial, if one is aware of it - if there is fear you can invent anything you like, most comforting, satisfying and so on, which most of us do. And that invention, that imaginative structure of something superior, is born out of fear and therefore is nothing...

K: I will do anything to stop my fear - give up my property, give up my wife, give up everything because I want to live without fear. You follow? That's the only way to find out. You can't just sit and talk about the mountain top, you have to climb it.

...insight, I see it has no value, it has no meaning. The seeing is the intelligence. That's all. Now I want to have an insight into fear, into attachment, so I don't condemn it, I don't say I must be free of it, I just look at it, I want to learn about it. Therefore when I want to learn, I'm curious, I don't say, 'I must have no fear, I must go...

Don't ask: 'Ah, but occasionally fear comes up again. Can this ending of fear be perpetual?' - you follow how our mind works? That state which I realised when you pointed out, I have captured it for a second, can that second continue? - which is desire, which is time, which is thought. You are back again in the circle. So, you see, our brains are...

...sorrow in the world. They are still doing it. How many women, men, wives, have cried about this. For thousands of years, and nobody stops it. They talk about peace on earth; they don't mean it. To have peace on earth one has live peacefully. And that peace cannot be brought about through legislation. Peace means a state of mind, brain, where there...

And also we ought to consider together, what is peace? The obvious meaning is not to have conflict, not to have pain, not to suffer, not to have everlasting struggle from the moment you are born till you die. That is, to have no problems at all and no conflict. Is that possible? Is it possible to live in this world, not run away from the world, is...

...years or more. Religions have also, except perhaps Buddhism and Hinduism, have created wars - a hundred heretics, burnt them, destroyed them. And so man has lived on this earth without any peace. And to live in peace appears to be almost impossible - to live without conflict, without aggression, not only in personal relationships, but also with...

And if one may again point out without boring you, that this is not a lecture about religion or philosophy, or what is peace and so on. It's not how you should think or what you think but rather together, you and the speaker, enquire into this very complex question of what is religion and if it is possible not only to have peace in the world but...

...in its entirety, they listen partially - agree in the sense, go together up to a certain distance, and stop there. If man really says I must have peace in the world, therefore I must live peacefully, then there is peace in the world. But he doesn't want to live in peace, he does everything opposite to that - his ambition, his arrogance, his silly...

...in a state of mind that is always comparing - bigger car, less car, more beautiful, less beautiful, more intelligent, less - you follow? - more money, less - more peace, less peace - God, truth - you follow? Why am I comparing? Please I am curious, you understand, I am learning. Why am I comparing? And I see this comparison has brought inadequacy...

...Sir, every religion has talked about it - right sir? Books have been written about it. Believe in god, you will have peace. Follow this path, you will have peace. Follow this guru, you will have peace. Follow this particular doctrine, and so on. Mankind has done all this, various form - be a Christian, be a - you know, all the rest of it - man has...

...as the speaker is giving in understanding? Or you are just listening, you know, playing with words. And it would be a thousand pities if you don't understand this simple thing because man has lived in conflict, and he wants peace through conflict. And there can never be peace through conflict, however many armaments and all that you may have,...

So where does one find peace? Because one must see very clearly, without peace we are like animals, we are destroying each other. We are destroying the earth, the ocean, the air. And politically and religiously we look to leaders to unify and bring about peace in the world. But they have not succeeded either. Governments, politicians, religious...

...all want to end war, at least some people do. And pacem in terris, that is, peace on earth, in Latin, is not possible, apparently, in this world, in spite of demonstrations, in spite of all the preaching of the priests and religious books and so on, we can never have peace in this world apparently. And we never ask if one can live peacefully in...

...Thought operates. Right. You follow? Look what happens: experience, knowledge, thought and action. Right? Have you got that? I have an experience, from that experience I gather a great deal of knowledge, then I think how to put that knowledge into action. So experience, knowledge, memory, then thought, then action. From that action you learn more....

Is there an action which is not based on ideas, on ideologies, on traditions, on books, on the say-so of a guru, or the say-so of a saviour? That means is there an action which is universal, not mine or yours. Is there an action which is essentially based on freedom? Is there an action which is non-mechanical because the mind, the brain is...

...question is, I am asking is it possible for the mind to free itself? Now having put the question let's investigate it. Right? First of all, if there is an action of will against habit it breeds conflict, doesn't it? If I say, 'I will have no habits' - you follow? - that's impossible. You understand, sir? That is, if I exercise will against habit,...

K: Which of these questions shall we take: relationship, the stream of suffering in which we live, and how to step out of it, and if you do step out of it what is action in the world of reality, that is, what is the action in our daily life? And the other is, noise - but I'm afraid that is (laughs) - and when one suffers it seems that one loses...

...and so on. We went into all that. And where these things exist, we said, there is no love. And when our action is based on merely thought, which is memory, then that action is incomplete, and being incomplete it must invariably bring about conflict. Any action that is not total, whole, holistic, complete, must breed contradiction. We went into...

So, what we are talking is action, because life is action, not saying one part of life is action only, the whole of living is action. And that action is broken up, and this breaking up of action is this process of memory with its thoughts and isolation. Right? Is that clear?

Is there an action which is not born out of the movement of thought, out of certain ideologies which have been put together by thought, or by memories, which again is the response of thought - is there an action totally free from thought? Such action then will be complete, whole, total. You understand? Not fragmentary, not contradictory, it will...

K: Action in the present is love. Is that an idea? How do you know? If you are acting in the past or in the future - why do you call it love? It may be, but why do you Unless you actually live it, don't call it anything.

So one is asking: is there an action, in daily life - the daily life which we know, what it means, what is involved in it - where action is always free? And this action is possible only when there is insight born of intelligence. Right? I wonder if you get it! Am I making it clear? Verbally perhaps, but dig deeply, have insight into it, into what...

...that requires a great deal of attention, quiet enquiry, hesitant examination, not, 'Tell me what to do and I will do it'. Because everything is falling to pieces around us and there must be action of a totally different kind. Not action according to anybody, even according to the speaker. We are going in to find out for ourselves what is action,...

...Do think about it a minute. We don't understand what relationship means. Because I come along and say, look, let us talk as two friends, which implies care, affection, love, consideration, involvement, commitment, and you sit there and say, 'You go on talking, but...' You would never say that to your wife or husband or girlfriend or boyfriend...

...also I would like to point out: I think we don't listen; we don't really try to find out what the other person is trying to say. And listening requires certain attention, care, affection. If I want to understand what you are saying I must listen to you, not block myself all the way, all the time. I must care for what you are saying, I must have...

K: ...you protect it with affection, taking it in your lap, cuddling him or her, and holding his hand, you make him feel that he is loved, that he is cared for. That gives him a feeling, here is somebody who is looking after me, and there is security here.

...Ah, not we have to love. That is not an action of will. If there is to be an understanding of 'what is', and 'what is ' may be violence, greed, brutality, cruelty or affection or joy - awareness implies great care in looking. When you have a baby don't you - the mother cares infinitely with affection, gets up at two, three or four o'clock in the...

K: That's it, sir. There is not even affection to understand something. If you and I had affection - if you had affection and I had affection for you, and I say, look, for god's sake, do look at this, and because you have affection for me, or love for me, and what I say becomes important to you.

Krishnamurti: Yes. I think that is affection, that is love. When you talk to my waking consciousness, it is hard, clever, subtle, brittle. And you penetrate that, say, all right, keep your own beastly little stuff, and you penetrate it with your look, with your affection, with all that feeling you have. That operates, not anything else.

...me, is that a form of vanity? It's like a man who is vain, as most of us are, and out of that vanity we try to be humble. Is that humility? A man who is full of aggression, violence, tries to be modest. You understand? It's absurd, it's lost its meaning. Whereas, a man who is aggressive realises, sees what aggression has done in this world and all...

K: Oh, no. No, no, no, no, you have not understood what we have said. Both arise, love and aggression, they have no formulas. Really, that is not what we are talking about.

THIRD QUESTION: How does one meet aggression and psychological attack from a close relative from whom one cannot escape? (Laughter)

So we are saying, observe without direction, attachment, or aggression, or your violence. Observe it without any motive, direction, desire, just to observe it, and in that very observation there is an ending of it. And therefore you are inviting death while living. You follow? I wonder if you understand this? Not commit suicide, that's another...

K: No, just sir. This is really for half an hour, do please put your minds to this, I beg of you. Are you different from your aggression? Obviously you are not. You are aggression, it is part of you.

...in our relationship when you are nothing? You understand? You know what it means to be nothing? No ambition, which doesn't mean you vegetate, no competition, no aggression, no resistance, no barriers built by hurt - you are absolutely nothing. Then what is it to be related to another? Have you ever thought about all this, or is it all so...

So is our approach free from our conclusions, from our experience, from our knowledge? If it is from our experience, from our knowledge, you have already answered the problem, which will be according to time, which will be according to your conditioning. But if you come to it freely, to observe, then there is immediate action.

...Yes. Now what is involved in that? What is involved in the demand of our experience, and the experiencing of that demand? I experience what that guru or master, or somebody tells me, how do I know it is real? And I say, I recognise it, don't I, sir? Look, I experience something, and I can only know that I have experienced it only when I have...

...- there are ten different conclusions, opinions, expressions. Now what is one to do? Which is the right thing in this? Your opinion or my opinion, your experience or my experience, how do we find out the truth of any matter?

Sirs, you see throughout the ages man has sought something which is beyond time, which is beyond thought, beyond all experience, something totally the origin of all things. He wanted it, he wanted to enquire, find out. And there were those people who said, 'I have found out, I will tell you all about it.' They were caught in that trap. And that is...

So when the brain and the mind and the body are absolutely quiet, that is, when there is no entity that is measuring all the time, comparing - 'I have had this experience yesterday and I'd like to have it more, or I would like to have further experience,' which is all measurement.

K: And also, sir, the question arises, can one actually experience something which is not experienceable? We use the word 'experience' so easily - 'realise', 'experience', 'attain', 'self-realisation', all these things - can one actually experience the feeling of supreme ecstasy? Let's take that for the moment, that word. Can one experience it?...

So then there is the authority of another, and the dependence on another; there is the authority of tradition, there is the authority of the past as memory, as experience, as knowledge. And there is the authority of an experience which is the immediate. Are you following all this? You have had an experience, and that becomes the authority. And...

K: Of course. Thought is memory, which is experience, which is knowledge, stored up - it doesn't matter where, in my big toe, stored up - and when it is challenged it operates.

K: And also, sir, the question arises, can one actually experience something which is not experienceable? We use the word 'experience' so easily - 'realise', 'experience', 'attain', 'self-realisation', all these things - can one actually experience the feeling of supreme ecstasy? Let's take that for the moment, that word. Can one experience it?...

...it? Or the brain is carrying on in its old habits, beliefs, dogmas, rituals, or business and so on, just mechanically carrying on. If I may ask, is your brain like that? Silence! Have you ever watched one thought chasing another thought, a series of associations, a series of memories, holding on to your own experience? The other day, in America, a...

JK: Yes, it is the activity of thought. Now if I consciously meditate, practise, do all this kind of what I call nonsense, then you are making the brain conform to another series of patterns.

K: Are you saying no? When are you then generous? When are you feeling affectionate, kind, generous, sympathetic? Or do you never feel it? Or only occasionally?

K: That's what I'm I am coming to that, madame. Look at it, sir. He is attracted to it, attracted to all that, and he won't listen to my talk. He kind of avoids me. Right? Don't you know all this, as parents? No?

So what will bring us together? Belief won't, authority of any kind is rejected, the reward by another as a means for you to change is also rejected. And if you say you are going to be punished in heaven for not obeying, you say 'Go away, don't be silly', and you pass him. So what will make us come together?

K: No, but that's not I'm saying, the source of fear of every kind that human beings have is born from thought. Will you listen to that statement, as you would listen when I say I really love you? Because it's too simple, your mind immediately says, 'No, that's too damn simple, it's not, it is much more complicated than that'.

K: Who invented exams? (Laughter) The Chinese? The Mandarins? I believe they were the original people who kind of invented this monstrous system.

...when given an opportunity it breaks through. Which is it? I've seen so many people in - I've lived a long time - from the age of fifteen I've seen this happen, with people of my own age - begin beautiful, you know, and gradually finish, destructive, cruel, brutal, self-centred, ugly, drunk.

We are saying: what takes place when the observer is the observed which is anger? You can test this out for yourself. Don't accept a thing the speaker is saying, because if you accept, repeat, then you are second-hand human beings, which you are. So, please have the courtesy, the dignity, the intensity not to accept anything, psychologically. So,...

K: Wait, careful, don't agree so quickly. You are not different from all that. Right? Are you different from anger? No, of course not. So you are anger. Right?

K: Sir, look at it in yourself. At the moment of jealousy, or of anger, or of envy, or of hate, whatever it be, happiness, at that second there is no division, is there?

K: I never said - those are biological demands, but psychologically - anger, envy, jealousy, hate, attachment - can't you end all that? Of course, one can. Then do it! Talk to your wife or your husband, to your neighbour, gently, quietly, with affection, with care. Sir, you make me cry! You don't listen to all this.

K: Look, sir, can you watch, is there an observation of that feeling without naming it? The moment you say, anger, it is violence. Right?

K: If I don't hold my anger I am afraid I might kill somebody. Look, look. Before you kill somebody, try to find out if you can resolve the anger. To control it is to suppress it. To say, 'I must not be angry' is to create the opposite, and therefore a conflict between 'must not be' and the fact that I am. Right? Or if you try to escape from it,...

So the hurt is not different from me, the 'me' is the image, and that image gets hurt, so I am that image. Like anger is not different from me, I am anger. I might think I am different but in actuality I am anger. So do you see the truth of it - not the idea of it? the actual truth that when you are angry that anger is you.

K: You are anger at that moment. You are envy at that moment. And so there are many, many moments you are. Right? You are your anger, you are your name, you are your bank account, if unfortunately you have a bank account, you are your family you are your society, you are your god - you are, you invented all this. So, there is no 'you' separate...

K: Sir, no, not my relationship with truth. I am angry. Right? Suppose I am angry - there is anger, not I am angry - there is anger. Can I, is there an observation of that feeling, that reaction, without the whole movement of thought coming into it? That's all my question.

...it. Before I am aware or anything, I say to myself, is it possible for me to watch - casually, I'm playing with it, I am having a game with myself. I am watching the movement of anger arising. I think that's fairly simple. Right? I think you've noticed all that, haven't you? No,...

...lack of love, and to have no psychological fear at all. All this implies that one must stand alone. There is a difference between isolation and aloneness, between loneliness and being able to stand by yourself clearly, unconfused, uncontaminated.

K: Could we start: why are we fragmented? Why do we look at life and all our actions and our business, whatever it is, always this fragment, business, religion, love, hate, you follow? It is all so broken up. Why do we do this?

K: Isn't this what is happening in life? Don't say, it is not my business if you are a Communist. It is my business to see if we can live in security, in peace in the world, we are human beings, supposed to be intelligent. Why should I be committed to anything?

K: So instead of going through all that business why don't you find out, let's find out what is thought, whether it can end, what is implied. You follow? Dig!

K: Why does one, I mean, if one is afraid, do you, does one want to go really deeply inside the whole business of it, and be free from it? Does one demand that? Or we don't know how to deal with fears and so we run away from it, avoid it and explain it away. Is that it, we never really want to go into it and completely dissolve it. Is that what is...

...Sir, I don't know what is happening to most of the people all the time. But I am saying as one human being we are so conditioned in the pattern of achievement, whether in business, in religion, in any way, we are conditioned to achieve. Now in becoming aware of this conditioning, then you will find in that awareness if you are choosing, if you are...

K: both externally and inwardly. If I have an insight into attachment: attachment to ideas, attachment to conclusions, attachment to persons, attachment to my - you follow? - knowledge, experience. If I have an insight into that, the whole thing is abandoned.

Now one has explained all this: the attachment to property, attachment to people, to conclusions, to your images, symbols, ideas. To have an insight into that, into the whole of it, is the liberation from attachment, not at some future date, instantly. This is really important to understand. When you listen to this do you say, 'I will think about...

Attachment to the country, attachment to an idea, attachment to a conclusion, attachment to a belief, attachment to a principle, are all the same, they still belong to the stream. So I am saying, what shall a man do when he is no longer selfish? How shall he act politically, how shall he act in relationship with each other, man and woman, how...

Then there is also the attachment to persons. That is, in our relationship there is a great deal of suffering. That is, one may be free from this conditioning of fear and so on, and the other may not be, and hence there is a tension, and that tension arises not only out of attachment - the word 'attachment' means holding on, not only physically...

And we were saying one of the factors, among others, is this attachment - why human beings are so attached to a belief, to an ideal, to an image of themselves, to some concept, to the verbal structure. And when one is attached, in that attachment, however deep, however momentary, however pleasant, in that possessiveness, which is attachment, there...

So attachment with its pain and pleasure, to be obsessed and to obsess, is part of this attachment, and to be free of that attachment totally, because that is freedom in reality and therefore order in that reality and therefore no friction between human beings. I wonder if you see this. Do you see this, please? Not up here, but with your heart,...

So we have said if there is love there is no attachment; if there is attachment there is no love. So there has been the removal of the major factor in negation of what it is not, which is, love is not attachment. You know what it means in your daily life? No remembrance of anything, my wife, my girl-friend, or my neighbour told me, no remembrance...

...You are free of it, not just verbally say, 'Yes, I am not'. So that is why I asked at the beginning, if I may point out, unless we do this actively, see, aware that it is so in us, and being aware look at it, go into it, search out why human beings hold on to this attachment. Why you are attached as husband, wife, furniture, book, belief, it...

...and that pain may come back and be afraid of it - that is, physically. The same thing psychologically. I am attached to you and that attachment I consider love, which is nonsense, it is not love; where there is attachment, there is no love. Obviously. We won't go into that for the moment. So I am attached and I am afraid if I let go my attachment...

So when there is freedom from attachment there is love. You understand? No you don't. That means responsibility, so that means order. So can you - realising one of the factors of confusion in our life, of our disorder and misery, is this attachment to ideas, to beliefs, to ideals, to one's country and so on, to wife, all that - can one be free of...

...No, sir, look. Man historically, politically, even religiously said, 'I must be free.' Right? There must be freedom in life. There must be, as they put it 'individual', who is not controlled, shaped, driven. Man has always sought freedom, from the most primitive till now. So many are rejecting the churches, and all the rest of it. Freedom means to...

As I said, freedom from something, like freedom from anger, freedom from jealousy, freedom from aggression, is an abstraction and therefore not real. A man who says to himself 'I must be free from anger or from jealousy' is not free; but the man who says 'I must observe the fact of anger, actually what it is and learn the whole structure of anger,...

We began by saying yesterday, also in the previous talks, that there must be freedom from the known; and we are going to enquire together first what do we mean by freedom. Whether man really wants freedom at all. Many volumes have been written about freedom, various revolutions that have been started to bring about freedom to man, ending up in...

...fear, not the various leaves of this tree of fear, but the total tree of fear? Right? How does one see the totality of fear? To see something totally or to listen to something completely, there must be freedom mustn't there? Freedom from prejudice, freedom from your conclusion, freedom from your wanting to be free of fear, freedom from the...

...mechanical. You are very good at memorizing - right? - very good. Pass excellently in exam: BAs, MAs, PhDs. And a mechanical mind, how can it be free? And yet you are seeking freedom. You understand, sir. Therefore, freedom becomes an abstraction. Right? Freedom is to understand the function of knowledge, and where it ends, and have a mind that is...

So, a mind that is willing to examine this question deeply must be free to look, and therefore must be free from saying to itself, it is possible, or, it is not possible. So, to examine this question you begin with freedom, freedom is not at the end. Right?

And when there is that freedom, the questioner asks, what is relationship then? Isn't it, sir? What is then relationship in that freedom - if you have such a freedom? First have that freedom and find out. But without having that freedom we are asking, what is relationship. I am not trying to belittle it. But the fact is, our minds are occupied...

...first of all is it possible to be free of sorrow? Now, when we use the word 'freedom', it is not freedom from something. You understand? We always want to be free from something, free from every kind of irritation and so on. But we are talking of a freedom that is not from, or away from. Please understand this a little bit carefully because we are...

...things; passion is not lust, is not the act of determination or will. Passion comes from the word suffer, suffering. When you understand deeply, fully what is suffering and the freedom from suffering then there is compassion. But the freedom from violence is not necessarily compassionate. You see one has to go into the question of what is freedom....

...out in the middle of the river with a rope round me. Right? The rope, I am attached to the bank, safely, and I go out. Then I am not free. So we are tethered to a belief, therefore there is no freedom in that. You are tethered to some concept. So there must be freedom from all religious concepts, beliefs, faith, images, idol - all that thing that...

...Ah, you don't understand the word 'technology'. Technique - to do something, say for instance you want to build a car, and you must know all the parts, put them together, they must all work together. I have dismantled a car, put it all to pieces, and then put it all together hoping it will work. But it did work. Right? Learning about all the...

...the reaction. You see something in the window and you want it. What has taken place? The seeing of that dress, that trouser, that coat, that car, that woman, that man, or whatever it is - seeing, the sensation, the contact and say, 'I like that, that's exciting'. Which is, thought creates an image, you sitting in the car and driving. You follow?...

...That's right, sir, that's right. What do we mean by danger? A car is coming towards you as you are crossing the road and you might die and all the rest of it, so you move away from it. Self-preservation - the instinct to preserve one's being, both physiologically as well as psychologically. Now is not conflict similar to that? Let's keep it very...

...that: which is, to understand desire, desire is sensation - I will go into it, I will explain it a little bit. There is seeing the tree, the woman, the man, the car, the politician who is right on the top, or the guru who says, 'I know'. So perception, seeing, then contact, touching, then out of that sensation. Right? Is this clear? Then what...

...I don't know. That is, there are events in one's life, happenings, that appear to be a chance, happens by chance. Events that occur in random, you know, not knowing, it happens. Is that happening new, totally unexpected, or is that happening the result of unexamined, hidden, unconscious events? Just a minute, just a minute. I happen to meet you,...

...form of control. All this, with all its misery, confusion, is the lot of all of us, the life of most people; probably it is yours. And we don't seem to be able to change either ourselves or outward circumstances. Perhaps it is much more difficult to change the economic structure and the political nature, but perhaps we could, if we apply our...

So we are concerned, if you are at all serious, whether your mind, which is so destructive, so corrupt, a mind that has created a world that is insane, a world that has become monstrous, where human beings, quiet, gentle, really affectionate human beings cannot possibly live, and to bring about a change in that, there must be a change in the inner world, and nobody wants to do that.

But the question is: what is the root of thought, and whether thought can bring about a change? Please understand, this is the question. What is the factor that ends this, the continuity, change, and what actually brings change? Can thought bring change? You understand? That which is limited thinks it can change. And therefore when it tries to...

...various influences, desires, purposes, and if that isn't suitable, one is driven in another direction. And this constant movement from one degree to another degree is called progress, change, and all kinds of things - acquiring knowledge, moving. Right? So we are asking if that is change at all. We are discussing change in the sense, deep...

So this psychological revolution, of which we are talking about is the most important. That will bring about a change in the world.

...One has to go into this question rather carefully. First of all we have to understand what do we mean by change? Change from this to that - right? - we generally mean that. Change from what one is into what one should be. Is that change at all? You follow my question? I want to change from what I am, with my greed and all the rest of it, and...

JK: Yes. Therefore it is like I have been going along a certain tradition, I suddenly change that tradition there is a change in the whole brain, which has been going North, now it goes East.

So we are saying, if one looks to time, that is tomorrow, to bring about a change then it is futile hope - right? That's clear. Therefore you have to enquire: what is change? Is change in terms of the future? Is change something from that which is to something else? Please go into it, don't... I am this, I will be that. I will be that means...

So then, what is one to do, how is one to change? Right? That is the inevitable question, next question. Here I am, unhappy, miserable, confused, I won't escape from it. I won't run off to the churches and to the temples and the mosques, or pick up a book to read about God and all that nonsense. I won't escape, but I am going to find out. Can I,...

David Bohm: Well, I thought that perhaps we could go - we raised several questions after these discussions. One was the nature of this ground that we discussed, whether we could come to it and whether it has any interest in human beings. And also we discussed the possibility that there could be a change in the physical behaviour of the brain.

K: Now wait a minute, Scott, do you question why you don't see the whole nature and structure of fear? Or do you say, I don't see, I only see part of it, not the whole of it. Do you question why you don't see it?

So one has to understand very, very deeply the nature and the structure of thought. If you have not understood it you can't meditate. You can fiddle around with it.

...life, which is relationship, must inevitably be a series of incidents and conflicts. That's clear. So we are asking: can this centre be understood, watched, see the nature of it, the structure of it, and end it - not verbally, but actually end it? Right? That is our question. Therefore one must observe freely the nature and the structure of the...

K: I'm not asking, saying this personally. You're attached to somebody. And you see the whole business of attachment, what is involved, the whole structure, nature of it, the consequences of it. And you end it. Right?

K: We are doing it - find out, sir. But you haven't - have you lost have you had an insight into the nature of the individual and his organisations? Finished. If you have understood that, seen the truth of it, finished, you can never enter into that.

So, please, understand what our conversation is about, which is, in our relationship with each other, as two friends walking along a beautiful lane full of trees and birds and shadows numberless, we are investigating the nature of the brain, nature of the mind, nature of our heart, whether in that structure, whether there can be total transformation so that we are different human beings, with a different mind, with compassion.

K: Now here, I have explained for an hour and a quarter, in discussion, the nature and the structure of thought. Right? And when you watch the nature and the structure of thought, see where it is important, where it is not important, see the truth of that - you follow? - the truth of its operation and its non-operation, then there is a different...

K: Completely, specially in big towns, and even in small villages, and hamlets man is always outwardly going, outward, pursued by his own thought, and so he has more or less lost touch with nature. Nature means nothing to him. It is very nice, very beautiful. Once I was standing with a few friends and my brother many years ago at the Grand Canyon,...

K: So where does that lead us? We were talking really about insight, that it actually changes the nature of the brain itself.

K: Which is, have you, who have understood or seen the truth that you are an individual and therefore no longer - are you still carrying the memories, the structure, the nature of your remembrance, your past, all that, in your mind? Yes, sir, this is a real question, don't...

K: Go and listen to music. The moment that music stops you are back to your images. This is all so childish! Take drugs, that also creates various images.

...Rien n'est completement. Look sir, when you listen to music, there is the beauty of it, the romanticism of it, the remembrance of it, hearing it in different places, and the association that it evokes, that music, with whom you heard it, how you talked about it, what the critics said about it and so on. So when your mind is occupied then the space...

...bear in mind we are going to make it much more orderly, strict and not make it into another resort for amusement, please. Though it has been announced several times, that music that goes on, what is called music - Bong(?) is it? - thumping on the drums and so on went on until half past ten last night. So please be courteous, careful of others and...

K: Thought, quite right. But sir, to go so profoundly it requires tremendous, not only courage, but the sense of constant pursuing the same stream.

K: No, no, sir. Is courage the opposite of fear? That is, if fear is non-existent is it courage? Or it is something totally different?

I am not, the speaker has never been pessimistic or optimistic, he is just showing something to you: that the computers can take over all that man has done - almost, except the computers can't look at the beautiful tree, or the evening star, single, alone in the sky, or the morning light on the waters. When a machine can take over all that you are...

...with the psyche, the mind, and from there moving outwards. I don't know if we are communicating with each other. Communication means, as we said the other day, learning together, sharing together, observing together, creating together. That is, really, that means communication. So we must, you and I, must both move together step by step, and not...

Listen not only verbally, and the meaning of the word, but also non-verbally - for communication is verbal and non-verbal, and since we are speaking in English, the words have definite meaning and if you don't understand the meaning of the word actually but interpret that word according to your particular conditioning then you will not be listening to what is being said.

You know that word, 'communication' is very important to understand. Communication means building together, creating together. The word itself means that. And here we are trying to communicate, the speaker is trying to communicate with you, who are the listener, which means the listener and the speaker are creating together. Therefore, you're not...

...course not. Sir, when you hold a hand of another, you can hold it out of habit or of custom. Or you can hold it and communication can take place without a word, because both are at the given moment intense, communication has taken place, without a word. But we are not intense, passionate,...

...we go into that this morning? Can we freely enquire together into this question? Because communication and relationship always go together. If there is no communication there is no relationship, not only between you and the speaker but also between each other. If we merely remain at the verbal level, at the formal level, that communication is very...

...No. I'm just using that. Sir, first see, I'm talking about the word 'communication', not conditioning. We'll come to that. I don't know if I understand it rightly , I am talking - we are talking about that word, 'communication', which means, as I said, to build together. Here, communication means building together, understanding together, working...

...in English we have to understand the meaning of words, how they are used. And in this communication, that is, in listening to what is going to be said, either we share in what is being said or merely translate what is being said into ideas, into abstractions. Either we share together what is being said and not translate it into an ideology, into...

...were talking yesterday evening? Communication with each other, to commune, to communicate something to another, unless they are really willing to listen, however friendly, however good-intentioned, unless one is able to listen to another, communication becomes rather limited, misunderstood, and apt to be misguiding. So we are going to talk over...

K: I understand that, sir. But I want to find (laughs), not a drug, not a medicine, not a way, but there must be a communication between you and me who is the ordinary man, a communication so that the communication is so strong that very my act of listening to you and you communicating with me operates.

May we stop now? It is an hour and a quarter we have talked. You haven't talked but K has talked. But we have had a communication with each other, because we have established the basis of a communication in which there is no superior and the inferior, one who knows and one who does not know. May we get up? Apres vous: After you! (laughter)

K: Wait, wait, wait, wait. Patience, patience. The gentleman says, if I have understood him rightly, to bring about this order should we give first place to god. That's right, sir? That's a question isn't it?

So, the next question, which is much more difficult to answer - you have to have patience so far. Patience means - please understand, patience - I am using the word 'patient' in a particular sense. Patience means the absence of time. You understand? Generally patience means go slow, be patient, take time, don't react quickly, be quiet, take it...

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